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The second nuTrek movie : Into Dorkness 
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I saw the movie.

As an action movie 8/10

As a sci-fi movie 8/10

As a trek film? 5/10... :( I am disappoint. It makes me sad since I really did like the 2009 film.


Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:24 am
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Jedi Master

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Trinoya wrote:
I saw the movie.

As an action movie 8/10

As a sci-fi movie 8/10

As a trek film? 5/10... :( I am disappoint. It makes me sad since I really did like the 2009 film.


What made you disappoint?


Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:38 pm
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359 wrote:
In all fairness Kirk had been fighting and holding his own against two Romulans just moments before, and wasn't doing to poorly until getting rolled of the Romulan's back and kicked which was unfortunately close to the edge. All of this after crashing into the platform and bouncing around a lot.


In all fairness, he attacked the first Romulan he saw with his helmet, and Sulu still needed to save him... :)
But I said earlier that Kirk is a very good fighter, as Spock needed to intervene in the first film when security tried to take him down, and he held his own against four relatively sober guys while piss-drunk... :)


Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:45 pm
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Praeothmin wrote:
What made you disappoint?



Plot holes large enough to drop an enterprise through. Absurdly bad science. Completely wasted Carol Marcus, and the enterprise never so much as fires a shot the entire movie are just a few of my complaints. Honestly it'd take far too long to list them all and it'd just come off as a trekkie complaining about the new direction.

With that said: It honestly just reached a point where I couldn't enjoy it anymore as a trek film. It's really depressing because the first 20 or so minutes are absolutely fantastic and then it just seems like they lost track of everything trying to go for 'rule of cool' rather than actually remain consistent with what they wrote, and what others have written before.

For me, I know everything I would change, and I know everything I would keep. Hell, I would even keep elements that I hated (the bad guy... *head desk*) just to keep the actor in there since he was actually the best thing in the movie.

I guess in the end it didn't feel like star trek to me, so I can't enjoy it as star trek. I can only look at it as a sci-fi action flick, and that more than anything... more than plot holes, more than bad writing, more than forgetting what they wrote, more than wasting a character on a useless fan service scene, that is what made me disappoint. I know they are capable of better, I saw better in the 2009 movie, which honestly had the best line in all of trekdom. I liked the 2009 movie so much that for this one to fall so far for me is just making it that much more painful, and likely has influenced some of my harsher statements on the movie. I'm not going to say 'trek is dead to me' and I'm not gonna tell people "don't see it you'll hate it," because honestly what my problems are likely aren't going to be the same problems (if any) that others have. I want trek to succeed, and if others can enjoy this movie so much the better.

On the plus side I can honestly say though that I don't think it is the worst trek film ever made, and again, if anyone else enjoyed it, more power to them and I hope they get everything they can out of it and more. At the end of the day though it's just not for me. :(


Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:34 am
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Jedi Master

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Ah, I see...

What were the most glaring plot holes for you?
I ask, because TwoK is generally regarded as one of the two best ST movies ever, and it has some glaring plot holes as well...


Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:08 pm
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Presuming no handwavium:

Enterprise isn't attacked by Klingons despite launching a ship to go into their space.
Kirk and crew aren't immediately arrested by Klingons and some how manage to conduct a successful escape even though all the klingons should have been on high alert at that point.
Khans magic blood is needed, even though they have 72 other augments.
Falling to earth in mere minutes from the moon.
No response from starfleet at all to either the Enterprise or Vengeance falling towards earth.
No response to a battle right next to earth.
No response from New Vulcan for a battle right next to earth.
A large amount of captains and admirals meet in a very specific and known location with essentially no defenses at all.
Enterprise has to travel to the klingon home world, even though they have transwarp transporters and it was clearly established that the klingons do not have a defense against them. You can also make them extremely small to the point where you don't need a dedicated transporter pad so they could even take one with them for the return trip (a simple bomb takes care of it as a risk).
No security on the Vengeance to where unauthorized shuttles can waltz in.
Our traditionally tanned antagonist is suddenly white with no explanation given and no one batting a single eye at it.

These were just a few of the plot holes I noticed... most of them wouldn't add up too much for me if they were just so glaring as they stack one on top of another, and so many of them could have been solved by a single throwaway line. Most of what sets up the plot hole is completely useless. It just sucks the joy out of the movie for me... the moment the meeting happens the rest of the movie goes downhill for me entirely. Also when it starts going with the whole, "Oh look, history is repeating itself!!" I just sat back and said, "okay... keep him dead then. KEEP HIM DEAD. NO NO NO KEEP!!! HIM!!! DEAAAAAAAAAAD!!!! OF course they don't keep him dead..." *Head desk* If you're gonna go that route you need to go all the way... not half ass it. You could have even had "Star Trek III: The search for Khan." It practically writes itself... It's just saddens me especially because so many of them could have been very easily handled with even the smallest bit of effort. Honestly I can come up with solutions to all the plot holes above and handwave it away in my mind... but then I find I can't forgive them for taking the effort to do so themselves. Gah, even writing about it just makes me have negative thoughts for the whole movie, so I'll stop focusing on that now.


A big positive I will point out though, and I have to give the primary bad guy props for this: When his daughter pulls the whole, "you can't blow them up, I'm on here!" card he remembered he had transporters. That at least brought a smile to my face.


Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:52 pm
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Jedi Master

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These plot holes didn't matter much to me because, as you said, they can easily be explained away in many ways...
Ceti Alpha V and VI being mistaken for one another, or a Starship not being able to notice one planet missing, however...

I loved Cumber-Khan, mostly because of the actor though...

Had they kept Kirk dead, then we would have had to have ST XIII, the search for Kirk...
THAT would have sucked, IMO...
I preferred the easily predictable solution they used instead... :)


Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:29 pm
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Praeothmin wrote:
These plot holes didn't matter much to me because, as you said, they can easily be explained away in many ways...
Ceti Alpha V and VI being mistaken for one another, or a Starship not being able to notice one planet missing, however...


To this day, I still believe that Khan was lying to Chekov and the captain of the Reliant when he said that. It's the only way that Chekov and the others don't look like complete morons. And as for why they wouldn't correct him, they were not in a position where getting into an argument with him would be all that wise.


Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:12 pm
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But if that truly was the case, than how did Khan leave Ceti Alpha V, which is where Kirk dumped him? And more importantly, WHY? Why would he leave an M-class planet for the hellhole that was Ceti Alpha VI? For shits and giggles?

I honestly prefer the explanation given in the novel "To Reign In Hell". The Ceti Alpha system was in a region of poorly-explored space, was surrounded by an extensive asteroid field, and the Reliant approached the system from the "outside". Going inwards, they just assumed that the first planet they found was Ceti Alpha VI, and that the remains of the real Ceti Alpha VI were just part of the extensive asteroid field.

Remember, TWoK was written in the days BEFORE we had the ability to track planets in other solar systems.


Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:01 pm
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Maybe he tried to build a ship to get off the planet using his superior intellect. Given the fact that we had what looked like a piece of the Botany Bay on the planet in TWOK, I wouldn't be surprised if the ship was sent there, or even crashed there, which would have given him something to work with. They lift off, the ship malfunctions or runs out of fuel and they have to set down on Ceti Alpha VI. Maybe he tried to put in a warp drive on it only for it to fail. He did read the tech manuals in Space Seed, so he may have had a rough idea of how to build one and simply believed that his (as well as his people's) superior intellect would allow them to fill in any gaps. My idea isn't perfect, but it seems to be a smaller plot hole than what we saw in TWOK. And it doesn't require a Starfleet crew to be morons in the process.


Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:32 pm
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Trinoya wrote:
Enterprise isn't attacked by Klingons despite launching a ship to go into their space.
This assumes the Klingons saw the launch. Space is big remember. Even if the Klingons are looking for ships they still have a large area to look, and they were trying to not be noticed.



Trinoya wrote:
Kirk and crew aren't immediately arrested by Klingons and some how manage to conduct a successful escape even though all the klingons should have been on high alert at that point.
Run like hell while the Klingons are still trying to know what to look for.

To the klingons they just looked like some random traders at a glance.



Trinoya wrote:
Khans magic blood is needed, even though they have 72 other augments.
The only known person to have the magical healing blood is Khan, and if all augments had it, i doubt it would have been a surprise.



Trinoya wrote:
Falling to earth in mere minutes from the moon.
Nothing new to Star Trek. It happens in Voyager, Deep Space Nine, and Generations as well.



Trinoya wrote:
No response from starfleet at all to either the Enterprise or Vengeance falling towards earth.
No response to a battle right next to earth.
No response from New Vulcan for a battle right next to earth.
Was there time? The entire thing happens in minutes doesn't it?


Trinoya wrote:
A large amount of captains and admirals meet in a very specific and known location with essentially no defenses at all.
I seem to recall Kirk pointing out how stupid it was in the movie, and that the attack was likely carried out in order to cause the meeting to happen.


Trinoya wrote:
Enterprise has to travel to the klingon home world, even though they have transwarp transporters and it was clearly established that the klingons do not have a defense against them. You can also make them extremely small to the point where you don't need a dedicated transporter pad so they could even take one with them for the return trip (a simple bomb takes care of it as a risk).
You do realize that the entire point of the Enterprise's mission was to start a war with the Klingons? If the Klingons don't know who bombed them then they can not know to go to war with the Federation. The crazy admiral wanted to start a war with the Klingons. This is a major plot point in the movie!

The whole start war with Klingons plan was ruined do to Kirk disobeying orders remember.


Trinoya wrote:
No security on the Vengeance to where unauthorized shuttles can waltz in.
We don't know what Scotty did, or how he did it.


Trinoya wrote:
Our traditionally tanned antagonist is suddenly white with no explanation given and no one batting a single eye at it.
You're displeased that a Mexican was not playing the part of a genetically engineered Indian? Heck, given the magically cosmetic surgery we see in Star Trek this is one of the silliest complaints I've ever heard. Khan not changing his face would have been stupider.


Trinoya wrote:
These were just a few of the plot holes I noticed... most of them wouldn't add up too much for me if they were just so glaring as they stack one on top of another, and so many of them could have been solved by a single throwaway line. Most of what sets up the plot hole is completely useless. It just sucks the joy out of the movie for me... the moment the meeting happens the rest of the movie goes downhill for me entirely. Also when it starts going with the whole, "Oh look, history is repeating itself!!" I just sat back and said, "okay... keep him dead then. KEEP HIM DEAD. NO NO NO KEEP!!! HIM!!! DEAAAAAAAAAAD!!!! OF course they don't keep him dead..." *Head desk* If you're gonna go that route you need to go all the way... not half ass it. You could have even had "Star Trek III: The search for Khan." It practically writes itself... It's just saddens me especially because so many of them could have been very easily handled with even the smallest bit of effort. Honestly I can come up with solutions to all the plot holes above and handwave it away in my mind... but then I find I can't forgive them for taking the effort to do so themselves. Gah, even writing about it just makes me have negative thoughts for the whole movie, so I'll stop focusing on that now.
If you have to create faults to dislike a movie it must be good.

There are too many possibilities to waste time on a story that centers around some way to raise the dead, and now we know how Kirk seemingly has an infinite number of disposable crewmen.


Trinoya wrote:
A big positive I will point out though, and I have to give the primary bad guy props for this: When his daughter pulls the whole, "you can't blow them up, I'm on here!" card he remembered he had transporters. That at least brought a smile to my face.
Yes it was.


Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:52 am
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Jedi Master

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The Transwarp transporter was lamented by Scotty at having been "taken away" by Starfleet, formulae and all...
If it was really taken away by Section 31, then that's why it couldn't be used by Kirk and Co...

And Khan no longer being played by a Mexican actor doesn't really bother me that much...
To me, Khan has always been a greater than life villain, and Benedict Cumberbatch delivered, IMO...


Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:27 pm
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It still would have been nice if the writers had dropped a couple lines in during the brig interrogation scene, either just before, or after Khan reveals his true identity that he'd been surgically altered.
-Mike


Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:40 pm
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Trinoya wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
What made you disappoint?

Plot holes large enough to drop an enterprise through.


Please specify a ship model or registry number.
Thank you.


Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:04 am
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Lucky wrote:
snip


It's not me creating faults so much as me listing the flaws I found with the movie, and they are the flaws that I felt impacted it. I don't think it is a good trek movie and coming up with explanations to handwave them away, even after I said, "presuming no handwavium," doesn't invalidate the fact that these were detrimental to my enjoyment of it.

If other people enjoy it as a trek film so be it, I'm not gonna say they can't and I am not going to tell people to not go see it or anything like that. It won't change the fact that for me it just wasn't that good, and honestly I wouldn't have even listed the reasons I don't like it if I hadn't been asked to since I don't really feel a need to defend my opinion. I loved 2009, and ultimately I just don't think 2013 was even half as good as a trek film... It's certainly not the worst trek film, but it isn't on the high side on my personal list.


Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Please specify a ship model or registry number.
Thank you.


NCC-1701-J ^_^


Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:30 am
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