The "Outrageous Okona" Falsehood

[Kane Starkiller]

Since you have conceded that Picard didn't mean lasers of ANY power and that he did in fact made assumptions based on their strength I see no reason to continue this discussion since that was all I was trying to prove.

[Who is like God arbour]

Since you have conceded that Picard didn't mean lasers of ANY power and that he did in fact made assumptions based on their strength I see no reason to continue this discussion since that was all I was trying to prove.

I have not conceeded that he has made assumptions based on their strength. He couldn't have know, how powerfull the laser, this ship could fire, could get. A really powerful laser would still be possible, a laser with far more than enough power to vaporize the Enterprise at once, if it would hit.
Only an absurd powerful laser with astronomical energy would be a threat. Only a laser that is creating gravitation in an extent that it would attract another gravitation creating source faster than the ship could renew it, could be a threat to a navigation shield that works in the proposed way. But such a laser would have to be more powerful than each laser, that was ever shown in movies (I know). If the navigation shield would work in the from me proposed way, they could deflect even the Death Star Main Laser for some time, if that would be a laser at all and would follow the geodesics of curved space-time.
Although Picard could safely exclude the possibility that this ship could fire such an absurd powerful laser, he couldn't exclude that the laser could still get powerfull enough to destroy the Enterprise.
It may be only a small difference. But it is there and I think, it is important. If we assume that the navigation shield is working the way, I have proposed, it would make Starfleet ships practically invulnerable against lasers. Only unreasonable powerful laser would set a theoretical limit to that protection.

[Kane Starkiller]

It may be only a small difference. But it is there and I think, it is important. If we assume that the navigation shield is working the way, I have proposed, it would make Starfleet ships practically invulnerable against lasers. Only unreasonable powerful laser would set a theoretical limit to that protection.

Well that really is the problem. You have no evidence and it will take much more than a single line to prove that Federation ships can withstand such levels of firepower.

[Who is like God arbour]

Do you know another possibility to deflect a laser beam than with a space-time curvature?

• • • • deflect
        
        Main Entry: de·flect
        Pronunciation: \di-ˈflekt, dē-\
        Function: verb
        Etymology: Latin deflectere to bend down, turn aside, from de- + flectere to bend
        Date: circa 1555
        
        transitive verb
        : to turn aside especially from a straight course or fixed direction
        intransitive verb
        : to turn aside : DEVIATE

It has to have a reason why the deflector is called deflector and why the navigation shield is created by the deflector dish [1].
It deflects somehow space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might otherwise collide with the ship. How does it do that?

And why would a laser not be able to penetrate the navigation shield, if not because it is also deflected?

I abandon that theory as soon as someone presents a better theory. But until then, that is the best theory I know and it is not implausible.

[Kane Starkiller]

The point is your entire argument hanged on the fact that Picard was talking about ANY AND ALL lasers.
Based on that ASSUMPTION you concocted the "space curvature" theory but now since you yourself have conceded that Picard made assumptions about laser's strength the discussion is over.
Picard made an assumption and you have no idea what that assumption was therefore your "lensing" idea was made on a false premise in the first place.
I see no reason to accept your assumption that Federation ships can deflect light since that is no longer necessary: Picard simply made an estimation on their strength.

[Who is like God arbour]

Why?

The fact remains that the navigation shield deflects space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might otherwise collide with the ship and that it can't be penetrated by lasers that could get really powerful (but not unreasonable powerful).

We know only, that Picard has not meant astronomically powerful lasers. But still, he has not known how powerful the lasers could get - only that it could not get unreasonable powerful. He has had to consider, that they could still get immensly powerful (but not unreasonable powerful). But according to Picard, such lasers would still not be able to penetrate the navigation shield - otherwise he wouldn't have ordered to deactivate the main shields.

My assumption is, that it deflects laser how it deflects all other threats. That assumption is plausible. Otherwise it would be necessary to claim that the navigation shield has another operation modus in which it does not deflect but is doing something else.

[Kane Starkiller]

How do you know what Picard considers "unreasonably powerful" lasers? We don't know therefore no useful facts can be obtained.

[Who is like God arbour]

There is no need, that you forget the whole thread. Do you have an Alzheimer?

An "unreasonably powerful" laser would be a laser, that is so powerful that it would create an own gravitation field that is strong enough to attract another gravitation creating source so fast that it can't be renewed fast enough by the navigation shield. As we have seen, such a laser would have to have astronomical powers.

And only such laser could bypass the protection, an on deflection based navigation shield provides.

Lasers, that would considered as immensly powerful (but not yet astronomically powerful) would not be able to attract another gravitation creating source and could therfore get deflected by the navigation shield. Such an still immensly powerful laser could not penetrate the navigation shield.

[Kane Starkiller]

There is no need, that you forget the whole thread. Do you have an Alzheimer?

An "unreasonably powerful" laser would be a laser, that is so powerful that it would create an own gravitation field that is strong enough to attract another gravitation creating source so fast that it can't be renewed fast enough by the navigation shield. As we have seen, such a laser would have to have astronomical powers.

And only such laser could bypass the protection, an on deflection based navigation shield provides.

Lasers, that would considered as immensly powerful (but not yet astronomically powerful) would not be able to attract another gravitation creating source and could therfore get deflected by the navigation shield. Such an still immensly powerful laser could not penetrate the navigation shield.

No no that's not how it works.
As I already stated your gravitational lensing theory was based on an assumption that Picard included ALL lasers.
Through the course of this thread we learned that this assumption is INCORRECT.
Therefore everything you have built upon this FLAWED premise is now flawed in itself.
Thus we need to go back to the beginning and start building a new theory on the new premise that Picard MADE AN ASSUMPTION ABOUT THE STRENGTH OF THE LASER.
Since we don't know what that assumption was there is no reason for us to assume any kind of "gravitational lens" nor do you have any support for it.

[Who is like God arbour]

No, that is wrong. My theory was not based on Picards statement. It is based on the description of the navigation shield that deflects space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might otherwise collide with the ship. The question is, how the navigation shield is doing that deflection.
At the speeds, a ship can achieve, it seems to me logical to assume that the navigation shield curves space-time and that space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might otherwise collide with the ship, is shoved away with the space in which they are.
A classical acceleration of such objects with tractor beams would need either a lot of energy to accelerate such object to such speeds that they are out of the path of a ship, when it arrives or a range for the tractor beams that is far greater than the ranges we have ever seen in Star Trek, so that it has more time and doesn't need to accelerate objects that strong. Furthermore, if there are several particles, each particle would have to be shoved away while a curvature of space would deflect all particles at once.
A shield, with which such particles are colliding, is unplausible because at such speeds, the particles would collide with the shield with several hundered times the speed of light.
That's why I think that the assumption, that the navigation shield is curving space-time, is plausibel.
Furthermore, we already know that they have the technology to create gravitation and even anti-gravitation and that their whole warp drive is based on the ability to curve space-time.

And only now, the statement from Picard is added.
And I find, that if the navigation shield is working as I have thought, that the statement from Picard makes sense - even if astronomical powerful lasers are still able to penetrate the space-time curvature.
My theory makes sense and explains Picards statement. If you don't agree, you should provide an own theory how the navigation shield deflects space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might otherwise collide with the ship and is providing protection against lasers - although it usually doesn't affect normal light.

[Praeothmin]

If such is the case, W.I.L.G.A, please explain to us why then aren't Phasers affected by such a gravity field?
Why then aren't Photon Torpedoes fired at the ship affected by such a gravity field?

If indeed the Deflector shields worked as you have suggested, then why need a combat Shield at all?
The Deflector shield would largely suffice to protect the ship against any threat.

[Who is like God arbour]

If you read that thread, you should notice, that these questions were already answered.

[Kane Starkiller]

At the speeds, a ship can achieve, it seems to me logical to assume that the navigation shield curves space-time and that space debris, asteroids, microscopic particles and other objects that might otherwise collide with the ship, is shoved away with the space in which they are.

Sorry but "seems logical to me" is not evidence. We have no idea what is the kinetic energy at warp since neither Newton's nor Einstein's formulas apply.

A shield, with which such particles are colliding, is unplausible because at such speeds, the particles would collide with the shield with several hundered times the speed of light.

Actually no they wouldn't since they would enter the warp field of the ship. Besides as I already pointed out we have no idea what is the kinetic energy at warp speeds. Therefore you have no basis on which to claim that shields are not plausible.

[Praeothmin]

If you read that thread, you should notice, that these questions were already answered.

I've read the thread, and have found no such explanations.

[SailorSaturn13]

I've read the thread, and have found no such explanations.

Phasers and PT counteract navshields by thei own spacefolding powers. PTs, if unchecked, would release their photons directly on the hull, too late to steer them away. And when stopped by shields they release energy direct on them, instead of navshields.

There is an easy proof hat phasers and PTs can do what lasers cannot. Cloaked Romulan and Klingon ships are not detectable by light, so it doesn't interact with them. Ergo they are protected fom lasers. But they are quite vulnerable to phasers and PT's.

As I already stated your gravitational lensing theory was based on an assumption that Picard included ALL lasers.

No, Picard included all lasers not powerful enough to fold spacetime on their own. But since no other lasers exist in ST universe, this meant "lasers" to him.

First of all most of the energy a star emits goes straight "up". Only a miniscule amount is reflected sideways.

As you deviously dropped this point, I shall push it back again:

ANY PART OF SUN radiates energy equally in all directions, including inside, but also to all sides. It's just with the distance that all vectors appear away from Sun.