The "Outrageous Okona" Falsehood

[Who is like God arbour]

OK, W.I.L.G.A., I think it is clear that we will never agree on this.

But I will just state this for the last time:
In ST, lasers evolved to Phasers.
Why?
Who knows for sure...

Only that lasers have evolved to Phasers doesn't necessary mean, that a laser has to be weaker than a phaser. There could have been other reasons for such an development.
For example could it have been necessary because a laser can only reach a speed of c and is therfore not convenient for battle with ships that can reach speeds faster than c.
It could be that such a development was necessary because a laser, that would only follow the geodesics of space-time, couldn't reach a ship that has distorted space-time to such an extent that it envelops the whole starship and by that creates a subspace bubble.

Let us assume that you are right and a only powerful enough laser could penetrate these space-time distortions. It could have been easier to develop a phaser, which is able to penetrate these space-time distortions - even if it is weak - than to develop a laser that is powerful enough for such an task. Maybe the phaser is simply more efficient than a laser. But a really powerfull laser could still do more damage than a weak phaser.

The fact that Starfleet has first used lasers and has then developed phasers has only a very limited relevance because we don't know the background.

But if you face a ship that is using older technology, technology that you don't use anymore because you've evolved past it, and you are pretty sure that no ship the size of that old hunk of junk you're facing could even have Phasers as pôwerful as those of the E-D, would you consider its lasers capable of producing the necessary power to pose a threat?

I wouldn't!

Hear your own word: "you are pretty sure." That still leaves room for doubts - as I understand it.

As I have said, it would be a very likely that the civilication that uses lasers as armament is not so advanced in its weapon technology as a civilication that use phasers.

But it could also mean, that the civilications hasn't done the step to using phasers but has developed stronger lasers. Lasers that are able to penetrate space-time distortions, if that would be possible at all. It's maybe unlikely but possible.

Maybe it has developed a technology that allows it to store a lot of energy in a kind of accumulator and is storing that energy over years on their homeplanet in such accumulators. And they equip their ship with these accumulators like we today equip our ship with rockets. In a battle, they are using the energy of that accumulator to power up a laser, like a rocket could be fired even from a non-war-ship.

Alone the fact that the ship is small, has no relevance for a possible ability to store energy, that was "created" before with maybe extraordinary costs, in accumulators.

Such a system doesn't have to be advanced. It could be a very inefficient system compared to a phaser. But it could be enough to create a very powerful laser shoot.

It may be unlikely but it is possible. And a civilication that is still pining their hopes on lasers could have advanced them to a level that they are effective against possible threats.

All that is possible and Picard couldn't know with certainty, how strong or how weak the lasers of that ship could get.

Maybe it was very unlikely that they could produce a really powerful laser shoot. But he could have asked to be sure, before he has given the order to drop the main shields. It wouldn't have been a problem or a relevant delay.

• • • Picard:
    "How powerfull are they? Any threat to the Enterprise?"

That line would already enough to be sure.

But in your interpretation, he has based his faith only on the look of that ship and the fact that it is equipped with lasers (without having any further specifications of that ship and without really knowing how strong these lasers could get).

I know, sometimes one has to take a risk. But not if it is unproblematic possible to reduce the risk. One single question would have been enough.

If a only powerful enough lasers could penetrate the navigation shield - and he couldn't with reasonable certainty exclude the possibiliy that they are able to create such a powerful laser, he would have asked to be as sure as possible.

The fact that he has not asked, allows the interpretation, that he has known, that the power of a laser is irrelevant.

But it is also possible, that he has seen the ship and has heard that it is equipped with lasers and has thought that such a small ship could unlikely create a laser that could be powerful enough to penetrate the navigation shield. By ordering to drop the main shields, he has decided to ignore the small possibility that it could be possible that it could create a powerful laser by for example using accumulators.

It's possible. But I'm not convinced. He could have excluded even that small risk by asking Worf or Data or looking at the specification of that ship himself.

Heck, it didn't deflect the Borg's lasers (they were stated as lasers, and lasers using a visible spectrum of light are still lasers)...

Lasers using visible spectrum of light are still invisible. Your can see only, if light is getting in your eye. But all photons of a laser are flying together only straight in one direction. No photon of a laser beam will make a 90 degree turn and will fly in your eye.

When you are seeing a laser in air, you aren't really seeing the laser. What you see is a molecule that was hit by photons of the laser and by that excited what results in a molecule that is emitting omnidirectional light. The part of that light, that is flying in your eye, is allowing you to see that molecule. But you don't see the laser, even if it is using a visible spectrum of light - unless the laser is directed in your eye.

And in vacuum, there are no by a laser beam excited molecules that are emitting omnidirectional light that could partly get in your eye so that you could see them. If you see somthing like a beam in vacuum, it is never ever a laser beam.

The Borg weapons can not be a laser. It may have similar properties of a laser at contact with its target and that's maybe why they have called it a laser for lack of a better term. But it is no laser.

[Who is like God arbour]

Kane Starkiller:

I have tried to describe how I think, the laser is following the geodesic of curved space-time. I have described why I think that by only following the geodesics, no momentum get lost. From it's own perspective, from the space, the laser is in, it is flying straight. No force is affecting it in any way.

All you have done is to say that it is still DIRECTLY VIOLATING FUNDAMENTAL PHYSICAL LAWS. Maybe you are right.

But then, explain it to me, that I can understand it. How would you explain it? From your universal phrases I can't understand it. How would you explain it a school kid in physic lessons?

And don't say, that you would say that it has to accept what you are saying.

The shool kid wants to understand why light, that is flying in its own space straight - only following the geodesic of that space - is pushing other masses, which it doesn't even hit, away - although photons at lightspeed have energy that is equal to a certain mass and are with that even creating their own small gravity. A laser beam with really much photons would have really much energy what would result in gravity or curved space-time. Why is the by its own energy "heavy" photon pushing another mass, that it isn't even hitting but only passing by, away?

If I understand you correct, a laser beam, that is passing another mass, is pushing that mass away:

• • 

From it's own perspective, that laser is flying straight away. But if one would look from outside in that space, that someone would notice that the space is curved and the the geodesics of that space following laser is curved too:

• • 

If you say that the laser is pushing the mass away, it would do it also in the first picture, where the space seems to be uncurved - but only because the inside perspective.

The result would be, if I understand you correct, that photons are always pushing other masses away, even that masses, they aren't hitting but only passing.

But it's not only that way with photons. An asteroid for example, that was travelling at a straight path and is entering the gravity field of a planet, will get attracted. The gravity of that planet is changing the path of the asteroid (and backwards the gravity of the asteroid is pulling at the planet). Both, the asteroid and the planet attract each other - but not to the extent that the asteroid will collide with the planet. It will leave the gravity field of the planet - but at another course it would have had if there wouldn't have been gravity.
According to you, if I understand you correct, they should push another away because the change in the courses of both celestial bodies, caused by the gravity, would be a violation of the fundamental law of conservation of momentum, if they don't push another away.

But I don't understand that. Why would photons - to get back to them, who are creating with their own by energy equated mass their own weak gravity field, create something like anti-gravity?

Explain it to me, so that I can understand it.

[Praeothmin]

W.I.L.G.A. wrote:

For example could it have been necessary because a laser can only reach a speed of c and is therfore not convenient for battle with ships that can reach speeds faster than c.

Except that in TNG's earlier seasons, Phasers qeren't capable of being used at Warp either.

But a really powerfull laser could still do more damage than a weak phaser.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Lasers have evolved to Phasers from what we see, perhaps for the reasons you mentioned, perhaps not, but a race which hasn't been able to devellop Phasers and has continued to work on lasers and finding ways to generate enough power could make lasers powerful enough to damage the E-D.
But once again, that power generation would have been detected.

That still leaves room for doubts

There's always room for doubt, that doesn't keep us from saying that the ICS's firepower figures are wrong because the most logical approach leads us to believe it.
It is the same in this case:
The most logical approach leads us to believe, from what we know of ST deflectors, that it is impossible for the statement of "lasers cannot penetrate our deflector shields" to include all types and powers of lasers.

But he could have asked to be sure, before he has given the order to drop the main shields. It wouldn't have been a problem or a relevant delay.

Why should he have?
Everytime a ship has been a threat to the E-D, his tactical officer has mentioned it.
That very fact that no mention of a threat was made, even after the order to drop the shields has been given, is an even bigger indication of the absence of threat posed by the ship the E-D was now facing.

[Who is like God arbour]

For example could it have been necessary because a laser can only reach a speed of c and is therfore not convenient for battle with ships that can reach speeds faster than c.

Except that in TNG's earlier seasons, Phasers weren't capable of being used at Warp either.

Is that stated anywhere?
As far as I can remember, even in Enterprise, they were able to use the newly installed phase cannons at warp after they were adjusted for that. In ENT: Shockwave, Part II" the crew of the Enterprise used her aft cannon on the pursuing Suliban cell ships while at warp speed. The cannons destroyed at least one of the ships. That would be impossible with a laser.

But a really powerfull laser could still do more damage than a weak phaser.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Lasers have evolved to Phasers from what we see, perhaps for the reasons you mentioned, perhaps not, but a race which hasn't been able to devellop Phasers and has continued to work on lasers and finding ways to generate enough power could make lasers powerful enough to damage the E-D.
But once again, that power generation would have been detected.

Exactly. But only Worf and Data would have known that the sensors of the Enterprise haven't detected enough energy onboard of that ship to power up a really dangerous laser.
They hadn't had the opportunity to report to Picard because, as Worf has started to report, Picard has cut him off with his laser question. Picard couldn't know what the sensors of the Enterprise are reading beside that the crew of that ship is locking lasers on the Enterprise. He hasn't had more informations than that (and the look of that ship from the main screen).

That still leaves room for doubts

There's always room for doubt, that doesn't keep us from saying that the ICS's firepower figures are wrong because the most logical approach leads us to believe it.
It is the same in this case:
The most logical approach leads us to believe, from what we know of ST deflectors, that it is impossible for the statement of "lasers cannot penetrate our deflector shields" to include all types and powers of lasers.

We don't know anything from Starfleet navigation shields but what Picard has said. We don't really know how they are operating and what they would do with a laser beam.
What are your indications from Star Trek, that a navigation shield can impossible reroute a laser beam, regardless of its power, by creating a space-time curvature - maybe with a graviton beam, that is projecting a virtuell mass that curves space-time or with another, unkown mechanism?
You can only claim that it is the most logical approach, if you at least try to reconcile it with what was said and shown (although regarding the navigation shield, there wasn't shown much) in Star Trek.

But he could have asked to be sure, before he has given the order to drop the main shields. It wouldn't have been a problem or a relevant delay.

Why should he have?
Everytime a ship has been a threat to the E-D, his tactical officer has mentioned it.
That very fact that no mention of a threat was made, even after the order to drop the shields has been given, is an even bigger indication of the absence of threat posed by the ship the E-D was now facing.

That's not true.
Worf has not every time outright stated, if a ship was a threat to the Enterprise.

• And even if he would have stated it each other time, he hasn't had the opportunity because Picard has cut him of with his laser question. And then Picard has conversed with Riker and suddenly has given his order to drop the shields. There was no opportunity for Worf before that order to give further specifications of that ship without cutting his commanding officer of. And because he couldn't know beforehand that Picard would order to drop the shields, he has had no reason to inform Picard that that could be dangerous by cutting him of. And his silence after the order was given, is meaningless because we don't want to know what Worf has known but what Picard has known at the moment he has given that order. And from the fact, that Worf hasn't outright said that that ship is a threat to the Enterprise, he couldn't conclude that the ship is no threat to the Enterprise after he has interrupted Worfs report.

Quite contrary.
Worf has several times outright said if a weapon system posed no threat to the Enterprise. Picard could have concluded as well, that the absence of such a statement means, that the ship and its weapons pose a threat to the Enterprise.

[Praeothmin]

Is that stated anywhere? As far as I can remember, even in Enterprise, they were able to use the newly installed phase cannons at warp after they were adjusted for that.

I seem to recall that fact being stated a few times in TNG.
And "Enterprise" has retconned so many things I don't know how we should view them... :)

What are your indications from Star Trek, that a navigation shield can impossible reroute a laser beam, regardless of its power, by creating a space-time curvature - maybe with a graviton beam, that is projecting a virtuell mass that curves space-time or with another, unkown mechanism?

How about the fact that the Borg's cutting lasers (expicitely stated to be lasers) went right through the E-D's shields, navigation or otherwise, and did damage the vessel, and any other Starfleet vessels by the way.

That's not true.
Worf has not every time outright stated, if a ship was a threat to the Enterprise.

Okay, but he states it quite often, I'm watching the first seasons of TNG right now, and every threat is identified.
When the majority of times (say over 80%) it happens, it can be considered the norm.

Let's use another example born from this very own site:
Most of the images, and the references to the second Death star place it at around 140-160km diameter. But at least two images place it around 900km diameter, yet almost no one here has any problems with stating that they are outliers, and consider the 140-160km diameter when arguing or analyzing other stuff in relation to the Death star II.

This is no different.
Most of the times, the crew alerts the commanding officers of danger, going so far as to delay their execution of the given orders to relay their thoughts.
The best example is with the Minosian episode, where a crew member almost didn't folow his orders because he felt strongly that following those orders would place the ship in danger.
And we've seen Worf state many times, before following the given order, that he disagreed and that following the order would be foolish and dangerous.
So he would've surely done it a that time as well if it had been the case, since he knew of the capabilities of the ship they were facing.

[Who is like God arbour]

Is that stated anywhere? As far as I can remember, even in Enterprise, they were able to use the newly installed phase cannons at warp after they were adjusted for that.

I seem to recall that fact being stated a few times in TNG.
And "Enterprise" has retconned so many things I don't know how we should view them... :)

Give me an example. I can't remember to have heard such thing ever. But maybe it was only not said in the German translations.

What are your indications from Star Trek, that a navigation shield can impossible reroute a laser beam, regardless of its power, by creating a space-time curvature - maybe with a graviton beam, that is projecting a virtuell mass that curves space-time or with another, unkown mechanism?

How about the fact that the Borg's cutting lasers (expicitely stated to be lasers) went right through the E-D's shields, navigation or otherwise, and did damage the vessel, and any other Starfleet vessels by the way.

As I have shown, the Borg weapon was no laser. If that is your only fact, than you have nothing that supports your these.

That's not true.
Worf has not every time outright stated, if a ship was a threat to the Enterprise.

Okay, but he states it quite often, I'm watching the first seasons of TNG right now, and every threat is identified.
When the majority of times (say over 80%) it happens, it can be considered the norm.

Let's use another example born from this very own site:
Most of the images, and the references to the second Death star place it at around 140-160km diameter. But at least two images place it around 900km diameter, yet almost no one here has any problems with stating that they are outliers, and consider the 140-160km diameter when arguing or analyzing other stuff in relation to the Death star II.

This is no different.
Most of the times, the crew alerts the commanding officers of danger, going so far as to delay their execution of the given orders to relay their thoughts.
The best example is with the Minosian episode, where a crew member almost didn't folow his orders because he felt strongly that following those orders would place the ship in danger.
And we've seen Worf state many times, before following the given order, that he disagreed and that following the order would be foolish and dangerous.
So he would've surely done it a that time as well if it had been the case, since he knew of the capabilities of the ship they were facing.

1. As I have said, Worf hasn't had the opportunity to report of any possible threats to the Enterprise because Picard has cut him of.
2. What Worf would have said after Picard has given his order is irrelevant because only what Picard has known, when he has given his order is relevant. And when he has given his order, he hasn't known about the abilities of that ship - besides that it has lasers and how it looks.
3. You can't compare the mistake, a filming crew has made with the normal behaviour of persons. That there were maybe images of a 900 km Death Star was a mistake, that is not possible. Either the Death Star is 120 or 160 or 900 km in diameter. Only one size can be correct - unless we assume that the Death Star is like a blowfish and can change it size.
   But natural behaviour can changes. And as I have shown, there were reasons why Worf couldn't have said, that the ship is a threat to the Enterprise, if it would have been.
   And yes, if it would have been a threat to the Enterprise, Worf would have likely not executed the order of Picard. But that doesn't change the fact, that Picard has given his order only because he has thought, that the ship is no threat to the Enterprise. And he could have thought that only because he knows that a laser - regardless of its power - because he couldn't really know how powerful that laser could get - isn't able to penetrate the navigation shield.

[Socar]

As I have shown, the Borg weapon was no laser. If that is your only fact, than you have nothing that supports your these.

It was Worf who stated in "Q-Who" that the Borg were using some sort of laser beam, and it was Worf in "The Outrageous Okona" that said they were locking lasers. If what Worf stated was a laser in "Q-Who" was not actually a laser at all, then that calls into question what exactly they are referring to when they say "laser", not to mention whether what Worf considered lasers in "The Outrageous Okona" was a laser at all.

[Who is like God arbour]

As I have shown, the Borg weapon was no laser. If that is your only fact, than you have nothing that supports your these.

It was Worf who stated in "Q-Who" that the Borg were using some sort of laser beam, and it was Worf in "The Outrageous Okona" that said they were locking lasers. If what Worf stated was a laser in "Q-Who" was not actually a laser at all, then that calls into question what exactly they are referring to when they say "laser", not to mention whether what Worf considered lasers in "The Outrageous Okona" was a laser at all.

I'm not conversant enough with English - but could "some sort of laser beam" mean that it is no laser beam but only something similar to a laser beam - a kind of weapon, for which Worf has had no name and has called it only "some sort of laser beam" because it has had a similiar effect at its target? (Don't overanalyse the semantic of that line but consider what Worf could have meant.)
And in "The Outrageous Okona", the emphasis was on the fact that it is a laser. Picard has outright asked for a confirmation that it is a laser.

I wouldn't doubt that they really have meant a laser in "The Outrageous Okona" but only something similar to a laser in "Q-Who".

[Praeothmin]

Give me an example. I can't remember to have heard such thing ever.

Don't you think I already have enough work with my regular job? :)
I'll try to find that info and get back to you.

As I have shown, the Borg weapon was no laser.

Well, you haven't shown it, because it was stated as Socar has said.
"Some sort of laser" is still laser enough, and in this case you seem to be playing a semantics game in order to pull off the "E-D is immune to all lazors!!!".
I still can't believe that, because of the simple fact that although you require a great deal of proof from me, you haven't provided one shred of proof on your own that specifically proves that all lasers, no matter their power, cannot damage the E-D.

As I have said, Worf hasn't had the opportunity to report of any possible threats to the Enterprise because Picard has cut him of.

It never stopped him, or anyone else before, of telling the captain what they thought, specifically when the ship was in danger.
So you're objection in this case, considering I saw him tell the Captain that sort of thing regularly in the last weeks while viewing the first two seasons, even when interrupted, doesn't hold water I'm afraid.

And I agree, my example with the Death Star was a little fishy... or "blowfishy"... :)

[Socar]

Yeah, anytime you try and turn a direct statement from a character into a loose interpretation (such as Worf's statement in "Q-Who"), but then on the opposite end use the most strictly literal interpretation possible of another statement made by the same character, you're going to have a very hard time convincing any significant amount of intelligent people that your position is correct. Eventually you just get to the point where everyone else comes frustrated and just gives up on the topic altogether.

[SailorSaturn13]

3. If Federation ships are immune to lasers why are stars so dangerous to them? In Descent for example Borg ship which was tactically superior to Enterprise couldn't get close to photosphere and Enterprise survived for as long as it did only due to a new kind of shields and even then only for minutes.

1. Have you, the EUphile, ever read NJO? The idea is that navigational shield works like Wong blackhole tech. Deflecting one bolt is easy. Deflecting hundred, even if they are weaker combined, is not. Now imagine deflectng infinit enumber of them.
2. Solar radiation was NOT a problem in Descent. After all, the difference in it between the position of "Enterprise" and the Borg ship was marginal. The danger came from standing magnetic waves of the Sun, which are very strong in corona.
The ship would be heated like in microwave unless protected. And those waves have not the same properties as photons.

[TheRedFear]

As far as the Borg laser goes, it was only used AFTER the Borg had drained the Enterprise's shields and several other systems I beleive. So that proves nothing one way or the other.

[Praeothmin]

Maybe, but at the battle at Wolf 359, as seen in DS9's first episode "Emisary", the same laser was used on undamaged ships with great effect...

[TheRedFear]

You don't know they were undamaged. We were introduced to those battles already underway.

For that matter we don't even know if it was a laser. Borg energy weapons tend to have that weird cone shape, like a widebeam phaser

[Praeothmin]

You don't know they were undamaged. We were introduced to those battles already underway.

You don't know that they were.
In any case, we saw no visible battle damage at all before those ships got creamed by the Borg beam.
And let's say that they did indeed have no more shields, am I suppose to believe that even their navigationnal deflectors were also oof line?
That's stretching it thin...

For that matter we don't even know if it was a laser.

Same visual damage effects as the "lasers" previously mentioned, so if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are it's not a full-grown Klingon warrior... :)