Plan of Dissent [TCW4]

[2046]

From my tweets (@STvSW):

"Plan of Dissent"[TCW4] features a statement that Umbaran long-range missiles being used against ground forces are 100 megatons ...
... but we see three hit and they are sub-kiloton. What gives? Well, the clone saying it was clearly exaggerating because Krell wanted ...
... clones to march into them. But at least it's acknowledged that (a) megaton is a unit of yield for SW and (b) 100's considered big.

"L33telboi": diff measure of explosive tons, like how "klicks" didn't mean km on Geonosis. Foes say variable yields. http://bit.ly/rr6pvc ... foes also threaten ban. Such is life at Spacebattles. For the record, tho, I go with exaggeration, though L33t has precedent behind him

[Khas]

Uh, could you clarify this please? I'm having more trouble reading this than I do the average Jason post.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Drugs? Booze?
LB hasn't posted here since ages, and there's no link to SBC. What gives?

[Mike DiCenso]

Sigh. This is why I find Tweeting to be so damn annoying sometimes. If I interpreted it correctly, it is interesting that 100 megatons are considered powerful. And while that is indeed powerful, it's still about 20,000 times short of ICS levels.

Am I also understanding correctly that mods of SBC are threatening bans over this episode's information?
-Mike

[Khas]

That quote is found here, at 3:54.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifAMG--in-U

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, that confirms that the characters did indeed say that, and we see impacts, but they are nothing like what a series of 100 megaton explosions would look like.
-Mike

[2046]

I find tweeting pretty annoying what with the 160 character limit, hence various shortening efforts. But I didn't realize that it would be quite so confusing.

To translate:

"Plan of Dissent"[TCW4] features a statement that Umbaran long-range missiles being used against ground forces are 100 megatons but we see three hit and they are sub-kiloton. What gives? Well, the clone saying it was clearly exaggerating because Krell wanted clones to march into the missiles being used against ground forces in a frontal assault. But at least it's acknowledged that (a) megaton is a unit of yield for SW and (b) 100's considered big.

"L33telboi" on Spacebattles suggested that SW featured a different measure of explosive tons, like how "klicks" didn't mean kilometers on Geonosis in the "Landing at Point Rain" episodes ... specifically, a downed vehicle "5 klicks" away is seen to be perhaps a couple of hundred meters distant. The usual SW exaggerators there threw up all sorts of response, including variable yields and threats of banning for suggesting that the word would have different meaning, despite precedent.

Source: http://bit.ly/rr6pvc (That's a link to the SB thread via a URL shortener)

Such is life at Spacebattles. For the record, though, I go with exaggeration, though L33t has precedent behind him.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, to be fair, we could assume that 100 megatons is the same as the Real World measure of such, which gives Star Wars a respectable amount of firepower for it's missile weapons at the very least, and puts some measure of firepower on their part on par with a typical Star Trek photon torpedo of the late 24th century.

However, even granting that, this episode does highlight some very serious problems for the Star Wars camp, and I can see why they're going into a tizzy over it. The use of the term long-range implies something special right there about the missiles for more than just how far they can go, but that they are more powerful than any average missile's yeild. Futhermore, if Star Wars had planetary shields with full global coverage as many Warsies insist they do via the EU material, then why were such not employed on this planet by both sides to give everyone some measure of protection from any space-based bombardment? We know that SW has portable shields that can expand to cover a large city as per the SW: TCW movie, so why not just employ that, and give 160 square km or so protection from the uber missiles? Maybe because, even if they deploy such shields, they don't have enough power to protect them from 100 megaton explosions? This means we can pretty much cap typical SW shield capacity at no better than 100 MT and probably far less than that.
-Mike

[2046]

The use of the term long-range implies something special right there about the missiles for more than just how far they can go, but that they are more powerful than any average missile's yeild.

Yeah, I didn't even bring up the aspect of them being "long-range". Per the battle plan from "Darkness on Umbara", Anakin's team (now Krell's) were to land north of the capital, with Obi-Wan to the south. Obi-Wan specifically mentions that he'd be 12 klicks to the south of Anakin, and in that episode Anakin appears to be able to see explosions of their fighting through binoculars.

In other words, long range ain't so long, given the suggestion that the missiles are being fired from the capital.

Futhermore, if Star Wars had planetary shields with full global coverage as many Warsies insist they do via the EU material, then why were such not employed on this planet by both sides to give everyone some measure of protection from any space-based bombardment?

Indeed. The Umbarans have advanced technology for Star Wars, and yet there's no suggestion of any shielding around their world. The only defense seemed to be the Separatist blockade which is either run through or run over en route. It appears neither side gains space superiority in this arc.

We know that SW has portable shields that can expand to cover a large city as per the SW: TCW movie, so why not just employ that, and give 160 square km or so protection from the uber missiles? Maybe because, even if they deploy such shields, they don't have enough power to protect them from 100 megaton explosions?

I think it's quite obvious there are no 100 megaton weapons here. Everyone would've known when the first one went off.

This means we can pretty much cap typical SW shield capacity at no better than 100 MT and probably far less than that.
-Mike

Possibly so, though I'd really prefer to see one of these so-called 100MT missiles hit something shielded. As it stands, they've just hit the ground.

[Khas]

Maybe he was referring to the ships using long-range 100 MT missiles that were keeping the Republic ships at bay, or were the surface-to-space missiles. That was a crucial airport the Republic captured, so it stands to reason that they'd use much less powerful weapons if they wanted to take it.

[2046]

Maybe he was referring to the ships using long-range 100 MT missiles that were keeping the Republic ships at bay, or were the surface-to-space missiles.

Neither. The episode context makes it clear that the missiles were forcing Obi-Wan's group to retreat from their positions (meaning it isn't fleet-related), and the fact that they had such missiles was evidence that the capital was being resupplied, which brings them to the topic of the supply ship in orbit which is later destroyed.

Any other such questions can be answered by watching the episode. A Youtube link has been provided in this thread.

That was a crucial airport the Republic captured, so it stands to reason that they'd use much less powerful weapons if they wanted to take it.

However, there is no evidence of any attempt to retake it. If anything, the reference to insurgents and the nearby explosions during that event suggest rather that they were hoping to cause as much destruction as possible. If you have 100MT missiles and want to clear the airbase, you can do it much more effectively than by firing three of them virtually without a warhead attached.

Missile bombardment as a prelude to coordinated counter-attack might've made sense, but no such attack ever comes. Even a kiloton-level airburst over the base could've killed or incapacitated most of the clones, potentially without doing too much structural damage.

So in short, such a suggestion doesn't make sense . . . if anything, it just reinforces the view that the missiles simply do not have 100MT yield, and that the clone was exaggerating.

[2046]

Also, this episode features klicks as a distance. Given the foggy nature of the planet, it's unclear if Anakin was actually seeing explosions 12 kilometers distant, but it seems rather unlikely. This would, then, presumably be short klicks, but not as short as the Geonosis example.

[sonofccn]

We know that SW has portable shields that can expand to cover a large city as per the SW: TCW movie, so why not just employ that, and give 160 square km or so protection from the uber missiles? Maybe because, even if they deploy such shields, they don't have enough power to protect them from 100 megaton explosions? This means we can pretty much cap typical SW shield capacity at no better than 100 MT and probably far less than that.

I'm not sure we can conclude that sir. Obviously the first issue would be that Star Wars shields seem to have issue with solid objects passing through and would therefore have issues stopping a solid state rocket in any event.

Another issue which prevents me from agreeing would be that the Republic forces have only now made a very hostile landing and are in attempting to make a contested drive towards the capitol. They really don't have any fortified assets except the recently captured Umbaran airfield on the scale of say the Rebel's base on Hoth and the Republic's Grand army has to my knowledge never been shown to employ mobile shield types such as the Gungans' posses.

Also, this episode features klicks as a distance. Given the foggy nature of the planet, it's unclear if Anakin was actually seeing explosions 12 kilometers distant, but it seems rather unlikely. This would, then, presumably be short klicks, but not as short as the Geonosis example.

Well sir if I may offer my two cents I would contend this starting at about 2:00 is supportive of Klick being kilometer. In it a clonetrooper informs the Clone commander that they've been maintaning "this pace for twelve hours now" with the implication they haven't been harried by enemy forces since the one Anakin fought off except for fending of a pair of glowing, flight capable manta rays. I admit to being ignorant of how quickly a fully weighted down soldier can march through enemy territory but I would imagine at least some miles would have been traversed after half a day of grinding and they were still some distance from the capitol by all accounts.

[Mike DiCenso]

Any other such questions can be answered by watching the episode. A Youtube link has been provided in this thread.

Yes, he should know, he provided the link. ;-)
-Mike

[Khas]

Missile bombardment as a prelude to coordinated counter-attack might've made sense, but no such attack ever comes.

Back in 2004 and 2005 when my dad was stationed in Al-Asad Air Base in Iraq, they'd get repeated automated RPG attacks directed at their base, but nothing else. The Umbarans might not have had the available troops in the area, and had resorted to psychological warfare, hoping that the missile attacks would demoralize the Republic troops until they left.