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[Khas]

Aaaaand I just lost a lot of respect for that movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJarz7BY ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLzKwTcG ... re=related

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's quite the point I got... from a movie I didn't watch yet. I was already getting fed up with the promo, and it's just all about visuals.
The strings aren't hard to find really. The Na'vi(ga'tion?) chick design clearly is to be a sort of weird furry nerd dream. What he describes is what I felt by watching the trailer: CGI coolness (that's properly done btw, contrary to Star Warts).
I'm yet to decide myself if I even want to spend the few joules necessary to click on the right torrent link...

[Mike DiCenso]

You had respect for Avatar in the first place? ;-)


But seriously, the movie is good for the first half, has truly ground-breaking visual FX, and has some rather interesting concepts and characters. It's the blatent "FernGully" treehugger, PC, and Deus Ex Machina ending that really ruins it totally and completely in the second half.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Yeah but Ferngully was funny and a decent movie in its own right. I've seen Dances With Wolves already, though the nerd rage, "bomb the space Natives!" on the net was almost worth it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Aaaaand I just lost a lot of respect for that movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJarz7BY ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLzKwTcG ... re=related

Compared to the other reviews I've seen that guy do, it was practically glowing. Especially considering his main complaint seems to come down to "This Cameron guy really worked hard to manipulate the audience!"

I liked it, myself. My opinion of the film wasn't changed by the review.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I enjoyed the movie for what it was (a bit of entertainment) but i never really got into all the hype about it or found it good enough to watch more than once.

I suppose it was nice too see the "injuns" win this time although i found the ending comment about earths forces going home to die and not returning in overwhelming force a bit stupid. After all defeating a relativly small expeditionary force is not the same as facing the full might of a highly advanced militaristic race that needs you planets stuff or is gonna die out.

All in all it was simplistic entertainment, obvious and a bit stupidly preachy in regards to tree huggy mentality.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I enjoyed the movie for what it was (a bit of entertainment) but i never really got into all the hype about it or found it good enough to watch more than once.

I suppose it was nice too see the "injuns" win this time although i found the ending comment about earths forces going home to die and not returning in overwhelming force a bit stupid. After all defeating a relativly small expeditionary force is not the same as facing the full might of a highly advanced militaristic race that needs you planets stuff or is gonna die out.

All in all it was simplistic entertainment, obvious and a bit stupidly preachy in regards to tree huggy mentality.

Well, the Na'vi were totally getting their butts kicked until the planet itself decided to throw masses of dangerous critters at them. The Na'vi are big, blue, and tough, but they're also technologically primitive and not especially well trained for modern military combat. The film did show that.

I don't think Earth's forces are going home to die and leave Pandora alone; that's an in-character narration. We can expect that in the sequel, another expedition will come to Pandora. Sully might not think humanity will return to Pandora, but that's because Sully isn't looking at the big picture. I walked out of the theater expecting Earth to return to Pandora, and I wasn't alone in that.

Now, what we don't know is how things will play out on Earth. Will the RDA return, or will Earth government become involved? Will the return be carried out covertly, or openly with respect to Earth publicity?

I can see the RDA deciding to bury news of the revolt completely. We could even see a nosy private third party butt in, not merely governmental agencies - some other company interested in cutting in on the RDA monopoly. You have a human scientist's katra loose in the Pandora-internet. Expect that to also prove significant.

There's actually a bit going on under the surface. Sure, it's Noble Savage top to bottom, and the villains are villainous. No more trope-filled than classic Star Wars in which the Empire consists of Space Nazis (TM).

A lot of the critics of the film have missed some subtleties. And not so subtle points, such as the fact that the RDA forces are mercenaries, not a US military force. Preachy? So is Starship Troopers (the book, not the movie). I don't think Avatar is really any more or less preachy than many other good movies/books. Anti-technological? I don't see it that way, in spite of the Noble Savage trope being on display.

[Mike DiCenso]

That brings up an interesting point; if that is what a corporate merc force could field, what would a fully equipped and highly trained Earth goverment military be capable of?
Or rather, what should they be capable of.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

[...] You have a human scientist's katra loose in the Pandora-internet. [...]

That's a funny way to phrase it.

And, by the way, I, too, liked the movie. It sure is not everyone's taste. But I think that it is a fine movie. I have no problem with its preachiness. I think the best movies are often-times those, who are attempting to convey a morally message. But I don't think that Avatar has preached too much. Yes, it has attempted to convey a few morally messages. But nothing new and not presumptuous.

That brings up an interesting point; if that is what a corporate merc force could field, what would a fully equipped and highly trained Earth goverment military be capable of?
Or rather, what should they be capable of.
-Mike

Not necessarily more. These mercenaries were already trained by government armies. Insofar, there is no improvement to be expected. And government issued equipment tends to be not the best available on the market. A quote from the movie Armageddon comes to mind: "You know we're sitting on four million pounds of fuel, one nuclear weapon and a thing that has 270,000 moving parts built by the lowest bidder. Makes you feel good, doesn't it?" Corporates, on the other side, are equipping their personnel often times better. Look at real world examples. The mercenaries of private security companies (e.g. Xe Services LLC) are probably better paid and equipped than comparable US soldiers.

[Mike DiCenso]

Maybe. It still means that they were hiring from former government military as well as law enforcement, saving the company lots of money in the process in short and long-term training. Several problems:

1.) I see nothing that indicates that the very best security firm personel is substantially better equipped than a modern U.S. or NATO soldier, particularly in being equipped with body armor and other necessities. They are equipped for body guard services and the protection of various customer installations.

2.) Most security firms cannot field anything larger than light armored vehicles into combat in support of their troops, a large goverment military can and does send heavy tanks and artillery.

3.) Air support. Beyond light helicopters and some hand-me-down or converted to purpose cargo aircraft, they cannot in any way call in large-scale air-strikes nor expect rapid mobilization of large-scale troop movements the way a U.S. goverment or NATO military force can.

4.) Navy. Beyond light police patrol boats, I don't see a sec firm having anything on the level of even a third world fleet of frigates or missile cruisers.

So applying the above to the Avatar-verse, the actual goverment military of Earth should be able to field a much more substantial force, including and not the least of which would be a sizeable space fleet to bombard the planet in support of troop landings from orbit.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

You are right as far as heavy weapon systems are concerned. Of course, corporation seldom have tanks, bombers, fighters or warships. But usually these are only good for open war.

To what extent such things would be usefull on Pandora is questionable. The USA had all these things in Vietnam and has lost the war against a foe who hadn't had such heavy equipment. And it has all these things now in Afghanistan and it it is not able to defeat the Taliban, who have even less than the Viet Cong, who at least got substantial support from China and the Soviets.

Insofar, it depends on what kind of war one would be willing to wage. It may be the easiest to wage a war of extermination. Than you can simply drop weapons of mass destruction from orbit. With their biological abilities, they should be able to create a bio-weapon, that kills only the Na'vi.



But you are not right concerning the personnel equipment of soldiers respective mercenaries. And I'm not talking about bodyguards but mercenaries, who are participating in warlike combat operations. There are corporations (like Xe Services LLC), which are offering military services. Their employees are former soldiers. They can be found in war zones like Afghanistan or Iran. And they are getting a better payment and better equipment than they got when they were still soldiers.

The "problem" is, that the corporation earns money by sending its employees. This money can be invested in better equipment, better soldiers and better training for them. That's necessary because otherwise, if it seems that the corporation is not offering the best military services available, another corporation is asked for it.
For a nation, to send its soldiers, usually only creates costs. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq has cost the USA several billion dollars. Furthermore, national forces usually are primarily tasked with the defence of the own nation. That means that most of them are only there for the case of an attack. They have nothing to do most of their time but prepare themselves for the defence of their own nation. That means, that most of the issued equipment will never be used in a real operation. Look for example at the M1 Abrams: Over 9.000 of these tanks were build. Most of them will never participate in a real combat operation before they are decommissioned. Even those, which were used e.g. in the Gulf War haven't done anything useful most of the other time. That's why the incentive to equip soldiers with the best available is not especially high.
A corporation does not have such problems.
But if the Privatization of War continues, not even what was said above may be applicable any more in a few hundred years.

[Khas]

You're right about everything except for the cost of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Try a bit more than a trillion dollars, and then you'll be in the ballpark.

[Mike DiCenso]

You are right as far as heavy weapon systems are concerned. Of course, corporation seldom have tanks, bombers, fighters or warships. But usually these are only good for open war.

Yes, which was the situation on Pandora. Massive airstrikes, orbital bombardment from space and other tactical and strategic combat methods, and or biological or chemical warefare are things that can be done, if the Earth government is particuarly interested in taking Pandora.

To what extent such things would be usefull on Pandora is questionable. The USA had all these things in Vietnam and has lost the war against a foe who hadn't had such heavy equipment. And it has all these things now in Afghanistan and it it is not able to defeat the Taliban, who have even less than the Viet Cong, who at least got substantial support from China and the Soviets.

This shows you have no concept of what happened in Vietnam, WILGA. The Viet Cong were supported heavily by the North Vietnamese Army (NVA), who themselves went into combat on a fairly regular basis and got their butts handed to them in spades by the U.S. and Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) forces. Look at what happened in the Tet Offensive and Khe Sanh. There the U.S. and allied forces won out in the straight up fight. The Viet Cong were all but destroyed in the Tet Offensive. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.

But with no political will to pull off even an amphibious Inchon-style invasion of North Vietnam the fight was going to continue indefinitely. And there lies another issue; politics. North Vietnam had China and the Soviet Union backing them up, making a full-out invasion at the risk of an escalation that might lead to nuclear war a possibility.

Insofar, it depends on what kind of war one would be willing to wage. It may be the easiest to wage a war of extermination. Than you can simply drop weapons of mass destruction from orbit. With their biological abilities, they should be able to create a bio-weapon, that kills only the Na'vi.

This you are more on the mark here. And the question is why didn't the corporation do so? They certainly understood Na'vi genetics very well, and chemical weapons would also have been a fairly cheap option as well.

But you are not right concerning the personnel equipment of soldiers respective mercenaries. And I'm not talking about bodyguards but mercenaries, who are participating in warlike combat operations. There are corporations (like Xe Services LLC), which are offering military services. Their employees are former soldiers. They can be found in war zones like Afghanistan or Iran. And they are getting a better payment and better equipment than they got when they were still soldiers.

You still don't understand my response, WILGA. That is only part of the equation here. Maybe the mercs are a little bit better equipped, but their training came at the expense of the government, which is why the company you linked to above can save some money.

The "problem" is, that the corporation earns money by sending its employees. This money can be invested in better equipment, better soldiers and better training for them. That's necessary because otherwise, if it seems that the corporation is not offering the best military services available, another corporation is asked for it.
For a nation, to send its soldiers, usually only creates costs. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq has cost the USA several billion dollars. Furthermore, national forces usually are primarily tasked with the defence of the own nation. That means that most of them are only there for the case of an attack. They have nothing to do most of their time but prepare themselves for the defence of their own nation. That means, that most of the issued equipment will never be used in a real operation. Look for example at the M1 Abrams: Over 9.000 of these tanks were build. Most of them will never participate in a real combat operation before they are decommissioned. Even those, which were used e.g. in the Gulf War haven't done anything useful most of the other time. That's why the incentive to equip soldiers with the best available is not especially high.
A corporation does not have such problems.
But if the Privatization of War continues, not even what was said above may be applicable any more in a few hundred years.

Privatization of warefare is nothing new. There have been private armies for thousands of years. But in a straight up fight, those mercs you mentioned would get their butts handed to them. They do not have the major hardware or equipment or resources to do so. They are there to supplement the main government forces here and there. They are not undertaking all of the combat operations, much less major ones, nor doing much in the way of planning anything.

Oh and speaking of Xe Services LLC, if that name seems familiar to folks, it's none other than the infamous Blackwater Worldwide security firm. I recommend highly people look at the Wikipedia article here. Pay close attention to the sections and full articles on the Fallujah and Al Najaf incidents. Also these guys aren't as well-equipped as WILGA wants them to be made out to be.

But this is neither here nor there. You are trying to confuse the issue. The fact is that the Earth government forces should be overall better equipped and capable than the merc ones seen in the movies.
-Mike