Alderaan size.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

This is part of the fallout from another discussion so i figured id ask.

Now i know the novelization claims that the DS was at one point 75000km from alderaan but considering that the movie out ranks the book and that it could have moved backwards after the range was mentioned that it was more distant when it fired.

1. Do think that after seeing the visual effect of the laser firing and camera position that is obviously in front of the DS that alderaan seemed a little small?.

Now alderaan is said to be roughly the same size of earth but when we see the beam pass the camera (it comes from behind the camera) alderaan seems very small, now i have seen images of the earth taken from the moon and the size is very simular.

Now the moon is from 356,334 kilometers to 405,503 kilometers away from earth and i have no idea how far it was when the pictures i saw were taken but the size of alderaan if its close to the size of earth seems to show that the DS was a lot more than 75000km away when it fired.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The superlaser beam gets wider I suppose, in order to explain the muzzle width and the width before impact, and that's without counting the last thousand meters which would make the beam too small to the eye if it had no inflated en route (ANH), and Alderaan has shown that it has a near Earth environment, gravity and so on (ROTS)

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The superlaser beam gets wider I suppose, in order to explain the muzzle width and the width before impact, and that's without counting the last thousand meters which would make the beam too small to the eye if it had no inflated en route (ANH), and Alderaan has shown that it has a near Earth environment, gravity and so on (ROTS)

Well im not in your league for calculating how wide beam should or should not have been buddy but from the perspective of the camera that was in front of the DS it does seem that the DS was a lot more than 75000km away from alderaan when it fired due to how small alderaan looked compared to shots of the earth from the moon if as you say they are roughly the same size.

[Mike DiCenso]

The SW Expanded Universe material gives a diameter of 12,500 km for Alderaan. Essentially the same as Earth's.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

The superlaser beam gets wider I suppose, in order to explain the muzzle width and the width before impact, and that's without counting the last thousand meters which would make the beam too small to the eye if it had no inflated en route (ANH), and Alderaan has shown that it has a near Earth environment, gravity and so on (ROTS)

Well im not in your league for calculating how wide beam should or should not have been buddy but from the perspective of the camera that was in front of the DS it does seem that the DS was a lot more than 75000km away from alderaan when it fired due to how small alderaan looked compared to shots of the earth from the moon if as you say they are roughly the same size.

I'm in no particular league either you know. You're probably smarter than me for all we know.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The SW Expanded Universe material gives a diameter of 12,500 km for Alderaan. Essentially the same as Earth's.
-Mike

Well in that case using the movie as a guide and the "suspension of disbelief" that says the camera is live ect ect, the DS fired from roughly the same distance the moon ids from earth (356,334 kilometers to 405,503 kilometers).

[Mike DiCenso]

To verify that, however, you would have to employ some means of calculating the distance using either trigonometry, or ObjectDistance/ObjectLength = ImageDistancetoLens/Image Length on Film (OD/OL = ID/IL) as RSA used in this article here to calculate SW weapons range.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

To verify that, however, you would have to employ some means of calculating the distance using either trigonometry, or ObjectDistance/ObjectLength = ImageDistancetoLens/Image Length on Film (OD/OL = ID/IL) as RSA used in this article here to calculate SW weapons range.
-Mike

Or he can use the SDN method of calculations:
"Because I said so"...


:)

[Mike DiCenso]

Now, now. We have to encourage him towards good, proper scientific methodologies, not Creationism. ;-)
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I would normally do it by measuring the image size of alderaan as the beam passes the camera.

A live image of the earth from the moon will give me a minimum referance point in regards to size of 356,334 kilometers (if i can get a photo that shows the distance it would be better but.....).

then il whip out the measure and compare sizes :).

Supposedly the movies over rule even the novelisations so in that regard "suspension of disbelief" should support it as the rule seems to say that we treat the camera as a live im told?.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Would seem unimportant considering we saw Alderaan in ROTS - not Chandrilla, Alderaan.
It was so earth-like. Are you trying to find if the plnet is so small that the expelled mass would be less important, and as well as the energy required to move that mass away?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Would seem unimportant considering we saw Alderaan in ROTS - not Chandrilla, Alderaan.
It was so earth-like. Are you trying to find if the plnet is so small that the expelled mass would be less important, and as well as the energy required to move that mass away?

I had not really considered either of those things and i had no idea we saw Alderaan in ROTS.

I just figured that considering it is supposed to be earth size and that some guy claimed the DS was 75000km away when it fired (according to the novel) alderaan was way to small in the movie when we see the DS beam fired.

I suppose it would effect the "DS tanked 1E32 joules from alderaan exploding" line, but then after looking into the Inverse Square Law in regards to that figure i think its wrong even if the DS was at 75000km, because it assumes that ALL the energy from the blast in one form or another was subject to the law and that the material ect that was in line with the DS position would reach the DS.

And we know that the falcon came out of hyperspace 1 planetary diameter from alderaan into a debris field so at the very least all the kinetic energy that created the field from the laser out to 75000km in line with the DS did not reach it. Couple that with the fact that what did manage to reach hit the DS would have done so depending on its speed (light first, then the next slowest particles ect ect) and it seems to me the "1E32 joules in one hit" figure is nonsense even if the range of 75000km is accurate.

[Mike DiCenso]

More or less regardless of the Death Star being at 75,000 km, it's only going to take a relatively small fraction of the total 1e32 joules from the blast. Not unless somehow that energy was all magically turned into a focused energy beam the size of the DS' cross-section and fired back at the battlestation.... which since that didn't happen, I think we can with reasonable safely say that the explosion of Alderaan was, for all intents and purposes radiating away in all directions.

So, assuming 75,000 km, the 1e32 J explosion is now spread out over some 17,671,458,676.44 square km, or a still rather impressive 5,658,842,421,045,995,905,241.46 J per square kilometer! That is 1.35 teratons per square kilometer, if I did the numbers correctly. The Death Star I would have 45,239 km squared for a total surface area. But since only half of the battlestation would get hit by the oncoming energy, we will divide by half, for 22,519 km^2. So the first Death Star is getting hit by no more than 30,536 teratons of energy.
-Mike

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Oh well it seems the discussion has switched to the word "POWER" in the opening crawl.

Why is it that they (wrongly) insist that it was literal especially when even in their DET version it actually refers to capability?.

"the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR, an armored space station with enough power to destroy an entire planet."

In the DET theory the part of the DS that destroys the planet is the superlaser and the part of the DS that supplies the power to destroy a planet is the reactor, they are components of the DS just like the bathrooms ffs.

So when the opening crawl refers to the DS as having "enough power to destroy an entire planet" the DET theory also requires that the word "power" is used in regard to its "capability" as it is due to the "capabilities" those two (and proly others) components that allow it to do so.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, I see that.
Vehrec is a troll. I've seen him display a most noticeable talent at trying to piss people off. He's peddling the same crap, hoping that repeating the same silliness and oversimplification will prove good enough... and true, in the end. He's probably trying to maintain his own faith more than convince anyone else. He really sucks at proselytism, that's sure.
The fact that he's pulling the "scroll's power" (wink) argument is just tantamount to this. It's just so washed out, there's just nothing to get out of this. It's so absurd. Futile. A weapon can have the power to destroy a planet even if it does it with goddamn magic or supercharged pixie dust for crissake.
Plus it's so cute, he's arguing that the LAAT's flank weapons were mini-Death Stars. Really. Perhaps did he miss that with those weapons, when the green beam hits the ground, it immediately delivers sub-gigajoule energy, and when the beam stops, the ground doesn't suddenly crack like a multi-megaton bomb just went off a couple meters deep inside the bedrock, with magic rings and all that, one second later after the beam has already vanished?
That's just so silly. If he asks "for a quote for this 'thorn in the side of DET theoriests'" (theorists perhaps?), perhaps he could use his keyboard, press those big square keys and go look on Google or directly search the SBC forum. I don't know why warsies get a free pass with that shit, always asking the same stuff on and on. It's not like the varying superlasers' effects and firepowers were recently discussed in the last third part of this thread... oops!
Oh but I suppose he still thinks Alderaan had a shield, despite the EU clearly stating it didn't.

As for Ricery1, he is a perfect waste of time. He's a complete lab-vat SDN prototype. Literally. He's arguing like someone who time traveled from 2002, mindlessly repeating the same old slop he licks from cripple idols he blindly cherishes, and proves incapable of the slightest criticism. He's, like many of his kind, a homo unius libri, and obviously has zero intent on ever reading anything that's been posted while he was still sucking his mom's tits. So I don't see why anyone should pay attention to him. Best left ignored.

And I see you've got General Schatten there, who must probably be so bored that he feels like whatever he's going to add to the thread about his obsession with RSA will be interesting. This one is a genius as well, I tell you that. He does the same as the two lads above: instead of merely sniping one's post, he'll literally snipe entire discussions, negating entire debunkings just like they never happened. This is, after all, all what they're left with.

In comparison, Leo1 looks like an exceptionally friendly and honest debater. The shock! :)