Alderaan size.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri May 14, 2010 4:15 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Well, I see that.
Vehrec is a troll. I've seen him display a most noticeable talent at trying to piss people off. He's peddling the same crap, hoping that repeating the same silliness and oversimplification will prove good enough... and true, in the end. He's probably trying to maintain his own faith more than convince anyone else. He really sucks at proselytism, that's sure.

The fact that he's pulling the "scroll's power" (wink) argument is just tantamount to this. It's just so washed out, there's just nothing to get out of this. It's so absurd. Futile. A weapon can have the power to destroy a planet even if it does it with goddamn magic or supercharged pixie dust for crissake.
Plus it's so cute, he's arguing that the LAAT's flank weapons were mini-Death Stars. Really. Perhaps did he miss that with those weapons, when the green beam hits the ground, it immediately delivers sub-gigajoule energy, and when the beam stops, the ground doesn't suddenly crack like a multi-megaton bomb just went off a couple meters deep inside the bedrock, with magic rings and all that, one second later after the beam has already vanished?
That's just so silly. If he asks "for a quote for this 'thorn in the side of DET theoriests'" (theorists perhaps?), perhaps he could use his keyboard, press those big square keys and go look on Google or directly search the SBC forum. I don't know why warsies get a free pass with that shit, always asking the same stuff on and on. It's not like the varying superlasers' effects and firepowers were recently discussed in the last third part of this thread... oops!
Oh but I suppose he still thinks Alderaan had a shield, despite the EU clearly stating it didn't.
Vehrec does seem to have some very odd misconceptions regarding some issues, and lets face it he is going to have difficulty converting anybody when he has such a low emotional level of tolerance regarding this subject (i looked up what proselytism means :D).
Mr. Oragahn wrote:As for Ricery1, he is a perfect waste of time. He's a complete lab-vat SDN prototype. Literally. He's arguing like someone who time traveled from 2002, mindlessly repeating the same old slop he licks from cripple idols he blindly cherishes, and proves incapable of the slightest criticism. He's, like many of his kind, a homo unius libri, and obviously has zero intent on ever reading anything that's been posted while he was still sucking his mom's tits. So I don't see why anyone should pay attention to him. Best left ignored..
He is another that seems incapable of forming his own theory and relies on old dogma.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: And I see you've got General Schatten there, who must probably be so bored that he feels like whatever he's going to add to the thread about his obsession with RSA will be interesting. This one is a genius as well, I tell you that. He does the same as the two lads above: instead of merely sniping one's post, he'll literally snipe entire discussions, negating entire debunkings just like they never happened. This is, after all, all what they're left with...
This guy is the worst of the lot he jumped into the thread leading with a insult and then followed up with foul language in every post thereafter, and when it was pointed out how abusive he was he defends his abuse with a comment about mine and others beliefs and actions and how we deserved his abuse for having the nerve to dare discuss things that did not conform to his belief on the subject.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri May 14, 2010 6:56 pm

Concerning the superlaser effects, there clearly is enough material to warrant a theory about the weapon's beam reacting with its target's matter. Perhaps it could be weird antimatter of some kind, I don't know, but we couldn't limit ourselves to that.
RSA already explored this avenue on his neat Death Star/Superlaser page, and his expanding band has something very interesting, as it seems to be supported by "Death Star":
Death Star, Chapter 55 wrote: The image of the planet Despayre seemed to shiver as a thin beam of emerald green-nearly the
same color as Ratua's eyes, she thought-from off the edge of the 'proj lanced into the center of
the single huge continent.
They both watched disbelievingly as an orange spot blossomed on the image of the planet. It
seemed no bigger than Memah's thumbnail at first, but it grew rapidly, spreading in an
expanding circle. The center of the orange turned black.
"Kark," Ratua said. He sounded stunned.
"What? What is it?"
"They-they're firing at the planet. With the superlaser."
The orange and black spread in irregular waves now, continuing outward from the center. The
blue of the ocean didn't even slow it down.
"The atmosphere's on fire," Ratua said. Calmly, as if he were discussing the weather. Going to
be a warm day today, temperature around five thousand degrees . . .
If the beam was either just a bunch of super charged particles, or a vast pile of antimatter, the reaction at the point of impact would be extremely violent, and the hottest point would ALWAYS remain where the beam hit.
However, the book describes an orange spot that blossoms and grows rapidly. That would easily be the hologram rendering the atmosphere lighting up, although I have hard times believing that the effect could spread on its own. If anything, you could expect the exposed side of the planet to get its atmosphere heated up by radiant energy from the point of impact, but this would be quite immediate. The only thing which could spread so slowly would be ejecta caught in the gravity well.
What is strange, however, is that the center of the orange large spot turned black. Usually fireballs don't tend to get hotter on the outside while their center cools down.
And it doesn't stop there, since after that the orange and black then spread in irregular waves, outward from the center. How odd.
Let's be clear. If for any reason, the black would correspond to the region in the ejecta + atmosphere on fire that cools down, there would be even less energy on the rim of this phenomenon, and it would certainly not have enough energy to spread any further.
What the hologram description tells us is a picture of a spot of orange that spreads outward from the point of impact, soon turning into a RING of orange.
In other words, pretty much RSA's magic band's cousin, albeit of lesser magnitude I'd say.

So clearly it just can't be matter reacting at the point of impact like if you dumped a huge mass of antimatter. There's something even weirder going on. That said, it doesn't preclude the necessity of explaining the discrepancies between effects and the weapon's varying power levels.

I recently revived the very strong possibility, here and here, that the superlasers react with the target's mass.
It's quite necessary, in fact, since when you consider ALL of the EU's data about superlasers and how they react with planets and shields, it becomes clear that something doesn't add up between the effects against shields and effects against planets: shields which are briefly defeated by torpedo spheres - weapon platforms which would be reaching to be pegged at anything beyond teratons- still managed to greatly diminish the effects of superlasers to the point that an unshielded planet will blow up Alderaan style, and a shielded planet will "only" gets its surface put on fire.
I provided firepower figures for Torpedo Spheres from Black Ice; see the two posts I linked to.

"We" already established that the increase of effects on targets is not linear despite and not proportional to the linear increase of power output of the weapon itself (various fraction of maximum firepower do NOT produce effects that match the same fraction of e38 J).
So I considered that as the beam is both DET and technobabble (the DET part in the teraton/petaton range), a planetary shield stops the vast majority of the technobabble effect, but still is defeated by a beam with a width several kilometers wide that dumps raw energy on a given spot of a planetary shield.

An EU source says that neutrinos are involved in the process, and greatly suggests that both the superlaser beam contains the neutrinos, and that it helps defeating the shield.

Now, IF neutrinos make shield penetration easier, as it seems to be implied, then it's even more obvious that a superlaser would have less reasons not to be able to deliver energy to the planet.
So in return, it's even more necessary to explain why the simple fact of going through a planetary shield is so capable of nerfing a superlaser.

Considering that a shield has little mass at all, it's obvious that a mass-reactive weapon would be at pain to do anything worthwhile -and in this case would need to count on the DET part of the weapon to achieve anything.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri May 14, 2010 8:54 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Concerning the superlaser effects, there clearly is enough material to warrant a theory about the weapon's beam reacting with its target's matter. Perhaps it could be weird antimatter of some kind, I don't know, but we couldn't limit ourselves to that.

So clearly it just can't be matter reacting at the point of impact like if you dumped a huge mass of antimatter. There's something even weirder going on. That said, it doesn't preclude the necessity of explaining the discrepancies between effects and the weapon's varying power levels.
I agree, i think it is reasonable enough to say that the superlaser is on its own a poweful beam weapon that can also incorperate a material (call it hypermatter) that initialises the chain reaction effect. However the beam does not NEED the hypermatter to be able to fire a powerful shot, it only needs the extra component to cause the chain reaction.

I always figured the dark spot being inline with the position of the camera was due to the ejected material cooling and blocking/obscuring the view, you know like looking at a fire from above on a windless day would mean that the smoke wouldobscure your view of the actual fire. That is why it SEEMS darker in the centre from our position and brighter at the edges because at the edges we cab see through the gaps in the material due to them being at various altitudes while the material coming directly at us obviously gives better coverage.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:"We" already established that the increase of effects on targets is not linear despite and not proportional to the linear increase of power output of the weapon itself (various fraction of maximum firepower do NOT produce effects that match the same fraction of e38 J).
So I considered that as the beam is both DET and technobabble (the DET part in the teraton/petaton range), a planetary shield stops the vast majority of the technobabble effect, but still is defeated by a beam with a width several kilometers wide that dumps raw energy on a given spot of a planetary shield.
I cannot say i agree with the existance of a planetary shield but my theory makes its existance or not irrelavant due to the fact that it is a combo of pure power and a secondary chain reaction effect that destroys planets.

Sorry but you lose me when you discuss things from the EU (not that im saying you are wrong as i have no idea), i have only seen the movies and have no points of referance in regards to anything concerning the EU other than warsies seem desperate to try and make the word "continuity" be indistinguishable with the word "canon".

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat May 15, 2010 8:30 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
If the beam was either just a bunch of super charged particles, or a vast pile of antimatter, the reaction at the point of impact would be extremely violent, and the hottest point would ALWAYS remain where the beam hit.
However, the book describes an orange spot that blossoms and grows rapidly. That would easily be the hologram rendering the atmosphere lighting up, although I have hard times believing that the effect could spread on its own. If anything, you could expect the exposed side of the planet to get its atmosphere heated up by radiant energy from the point of impact, but this would be quite immediate. The only thing which could spread so slowly would be ejecta caught in the gravity well.
What is strange, however, is that the center of the orange large spot turned black. Usually fireballs don't tend to get hotter on the outside while their center cools down.
And it doesn't stop there, since after that the orange and black then spread in irregular waves, outward from the center. How odd.
Let's be clear. If for any reason, the black would correspond to the region in the ejecta + atmosphere on fire that cools down, there would be even less energy on the rim of this phenomenon, and it would certainly not have enough energy to spread any further.
What the hologram description tells us is a picture of a spot of orange that spreads outward from the point of impact, soon turning into a RING of orange.

I always figured the dark spot being roughly inline with the position of the camera was due to the ejected material cooling and blocking/obscuring the view/light from the effect, you know like looking at a fire from above on a windless day would mean that the smoke would obscure your view of the actual fire, especially in the centre.

That is why it SEEMS darker in the centre from our position and brighter at the edges because at the edges we can see through the gaps in the material being ejected due to it being at various altitudes while the material coming directly at us or at a tighter angle obviously gives better coverage.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Spec ... Aband2.jpg

If you look at the images i took from RSA's site above you can see the darker patch in the center not only has a cloud like billowy effect/shape but also that that the very edges of the explosion where the ejected material is cooling (and does not have a exploding planet behind it lighting it up) the material is a very simular colour.

As such i say the dark patch is mearly ejected material that has or is cooling blocking/obscuring our view of the planet due to the camera position and does not mean that the planet behind it is cooler than any other part.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat May 15, 2010 11:41 am

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:"We" already established that the increase of effects on targets is not linear despite and not proportional to the linear increase of power output of the weapon itself (various fraction of maximum firepower do NOT produce effects that match the same fraction of e38 J).
So I considered that as the beam is both DET and technobabble (the DET part in the teraton/petaton range), a planetary shield stops the vast majority of the technobabble effect, but still is defeated by a beam with a width several kilometers wide that dumps raw energy on a given spot of a planetary shield.
I cannot say i agree with the existance of a planetary shield but my theory makes its existance or not irrelavant due to the fact that it is a combo of pure power and a secondary chain reaction effect that destroys planets.

Sorry but you lose me when you discuss things from the EU (not that im saying you are wrong as i have no idea), i have only seen the movies and have no points of referance in regards to anything concerning the EU other than warsies seem desperate to try and make the word "continuity" be indistinguishable with the word "canon".
If you plan to continue arguing Star Wars at SBC, you better get used to the EU, unless someone filters it out in the thread's OP. Simply put, the EU is accepted by default at SBC. Which means you can very well find yourself arguing over a specific point and suddenly being served with EU quotes that demolish your fan made theory because the EU has already decided otherwise.





Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Concerning the superlaser effects, there clearly is enough material to warrant a theory about the weapon's beam reacting with its target's matter. Perhaps it could be weird antimatter of some kind, I don't know, but we couldn't limit ourselves to that.

So clearly it just can't be matter reacting at the point of impact like if you dumped a huge mass of antimatter. There's something even weirder going on. That said, it doesn't preclude the necessity of explaining the discrepancies between effects and the weapon's varying power levels.
I agree, i think it is reasonable enough to say that the superlaser is on its own a poweful beam weapon that can also incorperate a material (call it hypermatter) that initialises the chain reaction effect. However the beam does not NEED the hypermatter to be able to fire a powerful shot, it only needs the extra component to cause the chain reaction.

I always figured the dark spot being inline with the position of the camera was due to the ejected material cooling and blocking/obscuring the view, you know like looking at a fire from above on a windless day would mean that the smoke wouldobscure your view of the actual fire. That is why it SEEMS darker in the centre from our position and brighter at the edges because at the edges we cab see through the gaps in the material due to them being at various altitudes while the material coming directly at us obviously gives better coverage.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If the beam was either just a bunch of super charged particles, or a vast pile of antimatter, the reaction at the point of impact would be extremely violent, and the hottest point would ALWAYS remain where the beam hit.
However, the book describes an orange spot that blossoms and grows rapidly. That would easily be the hologram rendering the atmosphere lighting up, although I have hard times believing that the effect could spread on its own. If anything, you could expect the exposed side of the planet to get its atmosphere heated up by radiant energy from the point of impact, but this would be quite immediate. The only thing which could spread so slowly would be ejecta caught in the gravity well.
What is strange, however, is that the center of the orange large spot turned black. Usually fireballs don't tend to get hotter on the outside while their center cools down.
And it doesn't stop there, since after that the orange and black then spread in irregular waves, outward from the center. How odd.
Let's be clear. If for any reason, the black would correspond to the region in the ejecta + atmosphere on fire that cools down, there would be even less energy on the rim of this phenomenon, and it would certainly not have enough energy to spread any further.
What the hologram description tells us is a picture of a spot of orange that spreads outward from the point of impact, soon turning into a RING of orange.
I always figured the dark spot being roughly inline with the position of the camera was due to the ejected material cooling and blocking/obscuring the view/light from the effect, you know like looking at a fire from above on a windless day would mean that the smoke would obscure your view of the actual fire, especially in the centre.

That is why it SEEMS darker in the centre from our position and brighter at the edges because at the edges we can see through the gaps in the material being ejected due to it being at various altitudes while the material coming directly at us or at a tighter angle obviously gives better coverage.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Spec ... Aband2.jpg

If you look at the images i took from RSA's site above you can see the darker patch in the center not only has a cloud like billowy effect/shape but also that that the very edges of the explosion where the ejected material is cooling (and does not have a exploding planet behind it lighting it up) the material is a very simular colour.

As such i say the dark patch is mearly ejected material that has or is cooling blocking/obscuring our view of the planet due to the camera position and does not mean that the planet behind it is cooler than any other part.
There are several problems with that though. First, atmospheric heating will happen fast. Atmosphere is heated up by radiation, and that's no sluggish phenomenon. The formation of a fireball is always something very quick. When the atmosphere is finished being heated up, there's not going to be any auxiliary input of energy under normal conditions to push the fire front outward even further.
However, in the novel, characters have time to observe the phenomenon and even make comparisons to one's thumb metaphorically stacked over the orange spot, and see that grow, and continue spreading.

You can't have a runaway phenomenon where the atmosphere is progressively catching fire like if you dropped a match on an ocean of refined petroleum.

The image you refer to is even more interesting for one specific reason: line of sight. Simply put, there's clearly a front of fire that's moving outward from the point of impact, and it does so even after it has moved beyond the horizon

The ejecta is another complex problem, first one where you we think about heated up rock vs the heated up atmosphere, secondly heated up rock that moves upward vs heated up rock that moves sideways. We can only guess much.

There is no doubt that pushing atmosphere will be easier than pushing rock upward. However, the atmosphere is a fluid, which is prone to flow and won't stack up easily. It's also incredibly lighter than the bed rock and the mantle. Any portion of the atmosphere that would be propelled into space at a high velocity, even if formerly turned into plasma, would probably remain visible only a very short time (but would block a part of the superlaser for a very short time). Only the atmosphere that's still mainly gravity bound and packed enough on the sides, around the point of impact, will be visible and would continue to radiate light like a fireball does. For this, yes, there is a reason for the rim to remain visible, but there is zero reason for the rim to continue to move away with such violence and remain so energetic when the beam is already gone.
Now, as the atmosphere that's been pushed up has become considerably thinner, there'll be the initially much denser ejecta underneath that's pushed up. A large amount of it would be ionized, so that would be brighter than the cooler ejecta that's even beneath all that. As ionized matter (just like the thin layer of atmosphere previously way), it would form an ultrasonic jet, and most of it would actually absorb whatever the superlaser would continue to deliver. Would the ionized rock be diffuse enough to also turn "invisible" and reveal the cooler ejecta underneath? It's hard to say as far as I can tell, but note that I see no reason for this super jet to appear cooler than all the heated up material located around the point of impact. If anything, the fact that the jet has been crossing whatever remained of the beam, there's little reason for this to happen.
Also, I believe that any other part of the crust or the mantle that wouldn't be ionized, and therefore only melted, wouldn't be light enough to be kicked high enough to literally mask the plasma jet. At best I suppose it would be pulverized into a cloud of molten droplets. Surely you can also ask if the ionized jet would fade fast enough to turn invisible.
With such chaotic forces, it would appear obvious that a fraction would move away from the planet so that it disperses, but another portion of the ionized ejecta would not. And that super ionized matter would juts stack over the point of impact.
To me and my very limited conceptions of mechanical work at such a grand scale, I still can't see why the darker spot would form.
Even if the beam involves neutrinos in some ways, it only means it will reach deeper into planet, and although neutrinos would not be stopped by the atmosphere in the same way photons or high energy particles would, the neutrino beam would also make very little ejecta, as it would spread its energy over a deeper column. Besides, it can't really be neutrinos only, otherwise a large quantity of the beam would likely pass through the planet and do jack.
The superlaser reaches into the crust and the mantle. The mantle is solid and very hot. It only turns to molten material when the pressure diminishes (see magma conduits and volcanoes). Obviously any weapon cracking the crust violently would allow for such a phenomenon to occur, and the vast move of material on one side would obviously be felt on the other side of the planet, triggering massive earthquakes, and would make volcanoes spill copious amounts of lava. This would occur all over the surface. That's pretty much what's described in the novel. However, when we're dealing with the ejecta itself, the question is how it will spread out. The superlaser remains a continuous delivery of energy. So any ejecta made in the very microsecond will be heated up by the superlaser that continues to be pumped into the planet and partially continues to gouge its surface with whatever energy which can make it through the ejecta. The first batch of hot ejecta will have an easier path of escape sideways, but as the beam continues to push downward, this won't be the case for the rest of the material that finds itself being gouged, pushed upward out of a hole.
Then again, any molecule of this material that crosses the path of the remainder of the superlaser will be heated up and eventually expand as gas largely out of the path of the superlaser. However when the superlaser will be gone, all the ejecta that will continue to rise as plasma won't be forced to move sideways. It would have, I believe, more reasons to continue rising vertically until gravity does its job.
Then comes the other problem. If you treat the superlaser as a beam of light, it will have very little momentum. Meaning that the ejecta will actually be very effective in acting like a buffer/shield/damp, as photons will be forced to heated up the material that has not sufficiently cleared the way. If the beam contains lots of matter now -and to me it's clear it does, if only for the fact that it's a distant derivative of turbolasers and takes most its matter from the Death Star's core- it could act like a plasma torch. Then again, there would be little reason for the core of the explosion to turn colder than the rim.

What is most spectacular is how the descriptions of the attack on Despayre focus on all sorts of effects, but never point out the huge plume of ejecta which should have been the most obvious element to describe. It leads the reader to believe it didn't happen. However, if that's so, then the weapon's destruction mechanism would surely be even more exotic.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat May 15, 2010 2:56 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you plan to continue arguing Star Wars at SBC, you better get used to the EU, unless someone filters it out in the thread's OP. Simply put, the EU is accepted by default at SBC. Which means you can very well find yourself arguing over a specific point and suddenly being served with EU quotes that demolish your fan made theory because the EU has already decided otherwise.
I have seen and heard a lot about this EU and im not impressed, the ICS book amoung other things makes me feel that id not enjoy it in the least and im not going to start reading a entire series of books that do not have G canon status anyway nor would i even if they did as im not into that sort of thing.

Il keep it simple and if they do not like it tough, they have no problem claiming that the "hyperspace effect" is the "DET effect" so il be damned if im gonna concede my theory. Although it makes no sense that a DS with the power to cause a DET effect would use the hyperspace effect....but i guess the DET boys wanna keep their uber power crap going.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat May 15, 2010 9:16 pm

oh well so much for SB being a fair debate forum..

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Enterprise E » Mon May 17, 2010 1:12 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: I have seen and heard a lot about this EU and im not impressed, the ICS book amoung other things makes me feel that id not enjoy it in the least and im not going to start reading a entire series of books that do not have G canon status anyway nor would i even if they did as im not into that sort of thing.

Il keep it simple and if they do not like it tough, they have no problem claiming that the "hyperspace effect" is the "DET effect" so il be damned if im gonna concede my theory. Although it makes no sense that a DS with the power to cause a DET effect would use the hyperspace effect....but i guess the DET boys wanna keep their uber power crap going.
I wouldn't worry so much about the ICS being representative of the EU. My personal opinion is that certain series, such as the X-Wing series, the Thrawn Trilogy, the Hand of Thrawn Duology, and some of the New Jedi Order books, particularly in the second half, are quite good. Still, the EU is all over the place in quality. Some of it is very good and even fairly consistent with itself. Some of it, however, is horrible. I will say that the tone of Star Wars after the Hand of Thrawn Duology changes noticeably.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon May 17, 2010 8:54 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you plan to continue arguing Star Wars at SBC, you better get used to the EU, unless someone filters it out in the thread's OP. Simply put, the EU is accepted by default at SBC. Which means you can very well find yourself arguing over a specific point and suddenly being served with EU quotes that demolish your fan made theory because the EU has already decided otherwise.
I have seen and heard a lot about this EU and im not impressed, the ICS book amoung other things makes me feel that id not enjoy it in the least and im not going to start reading a entire series of books that do not have G canon status anyway nor would i even if they did as im not into that sort of thing.

Il keep it simple and if they do not like it tough, they have no problem claiming that the "hyperspace effect" is the "DET effect" so il be damned if im gonna concede my theory. Although it makes no sense that a DS with the power to cause a DET effect would use the hyperspace effect....but i guess the DET boys wanna keep their uber power crap going.
The early ICS books are actually quite fun books to read and look at. All of them have gorgeous illustrations, just like a lot of similar books from DK. It's the hijacking and poisoning of the 2nd and 3rd book by Saxton and by proxy his Warsie Versus debate allies that ruins them. But I would, if nothing else, recommend the first book.

As for the rest of the EU, as has been noted, it varies. You'll get decent to good milage with authors like Mike Stackpole and Timmothy Zhan. The rest are very hit-and-miss.

As far as everything else, the Rabid Warsies will continue to thump their religion as long as they have moderators or anything else to back them up. If they cannot overwhelm you by spouting nonsense over and over, they will try to overwhelm you with shear numbers, like they tried to do to JMS on the former ST.com forum, and barring all else, they will run to their mod friends and get you banned or the thread shut down. Until the mods at SB.com are ousted and a new order established, that is the way things will stay there no matter what the majority of the membership thinks or says.
-Mike

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon May 17, 2010 9:12 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The superlaser reaches into the crust and the mantle. The mantle is solid and very hot. It only turns to molten material when the pressure diminishes (see magma conduits and volcanoes). Obviously any weapon cracking the crust violently would allow for such a phenomenon to occur, and the vast move of material on one side would obviously be felt on the other side of the planet, triggering massive earthquakes, and would make volcanoes spill copious amounts of lava. This would occur all over the surface. That's pretty much what's described in the novel. However, when we're dealing with the ejecta itself, the question is how it will spread out. The superlaser remains a continuous delivery of energy. So any ejecta made in the very microsecond will be heated up by the superlaser that continues to be pumped into the planet and partially continues to gouge its surface with whatever energy which can make it through the ejecta. The first batch of hot ejecta will have an easier path of escape sideways, but as the beam continues to push downward, this won't be the case for the rest of the material that finds itself being gouged, pushed upward out of a hole.
Then again, any molecule of this material that crosses the path of the remainder of the superlaser will be heated up and eventually expand as gas largely out of the path of the superlaser. However when the superlaser will be gone, all the ejecta that will continue to rise as plasma won't be forced to move sideways. It would have, I believe, more reasons to continue rising vertically until gravity does its job.
Then comes the other problem. If you treat the superlaser as a beam of light, it will have very little momentum. Meaning that the ejecta will actually be very effective in acting like a buffer/shield/damp, as photons will be forced to heated up the material that has not sufficiently cleared the way. If the beam contains lots of matter now -and to me it's clear it does, if only for the fact that it's a distant derivative of turbolasers and takes most its matter from the Death Star's core- it could act like a plasma torch. Then again, there would be little reason for the core of the explosion to turn colder than the rim.

What is most spectacular is how the descriptions of the attack on Despayre focus on all sorts of effects, but never point out the huge plume of ejecta which should have been the most obvious element to describe. It leads the reader to believe it didn't happen. However, if that's so, then the weapon's destruction mechanism would surely be even more exotic.
What always amuses me to no end is how the Warsies will bend over ass backwards to try and justify DET, and yet will not allow anyone to apply similar reasoning and methods to their franchise's technologies and firepower in return. If the opening scrawl of the ANH movie is so accurate about the Death Star having the power to destroy a planet, then why not allow that when characters in say, Star Trek, make similar statements? I mean just look at the following from TOS:

Marcus : "From what I understand, your vessel could lay waste to the entire surface of the world."


Scotty : "Aye... we could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba II."

McCoy : "How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless!"



So there you see. A Constitution class starship from the middle to late 2260's can at least lay waste to the surface of an Earth-like planet, or if we really want to be literal and assume the most optimal case with McCoy's statement, it can wipe out a whole planet entirely, killing everyone on it in the process, even through a shield and in a heavily reinforced dome. Cased closed.

Conversely, also look at how the Warsies, Wong in particular, try to dismiss DET-like effects from episodes such as the Species 8472 destruction of a Borg planet, with who knows what defenses the Borg have there, the beam from 9 ships an insignificant fraction of a Death Star's size drilled into the planet, sending up massive waves of glowing ejecta material into space at escape velocity, the crust cracking about the entire body, and then make it blow apart.

But no, they handwave it all away by declaring it chain-reaction. Hypocrites.
-Mike

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Praeothmin
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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Praeothmin » Tue May 18, 2010 1:02 pm

And in DS9, Garak says the Defiant could turn the surface of the world below to cinder, but that doesn't count... :)


And a DET Superlaser doesn't explain the second, bigger explosion, a fraction of a second after the first one...

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 18, 2010 3:48 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you plan to continue arguing Star Wars at SBC, you better get used to the EU, unless someone filters it out in the thread's OP. Simply put, the EU is accepted by default at SBC. Which means you can very well find yourself arguing over a specific point and suddenly being served with EU quotes that demolish your fan made theory because the EU has already decided otherwise.
I have seen and heard a lot about this EU and im not impressed, the ICS book amoung other things makes me feel that id not enjoy it in the least and im not going to start reading a entire series of books that do not have G canon status anyway nor would i even if they did as im not into that sort of thing.

Il keep it simple and if they do not like it tough, they have no problem claiming that the "hyperspace effect" is the "DET effect" so il be damned if im gonna concede my theory. Although it makes no sense that a DS with the power to cause a DET effect would use the hyperspace effect....but i guess the DET boys wanna keep their uber power crap going.
The early ICS books are actually quite fun books to read and look at. All of them have gorgeous illustrations, just like a lot of similar books from DK. It's the hijacking and poisoning of the 2nd and 3rd book by Saxton and by proxy his Warsie Versus debate allies that ruins them. But I would, if nothing else, recommend the first book.
The TPM ones are nice. ALL those illustration books are pretty good. I even have the Locations of TPM and it's an interesting piece of merchandising (yeah, I know, that's a weird thing to say). It also means I just busted my Trekkie cover.
How clever of me. :/
As for the rest of the EU, as has been noted, it varies. You'll get decent to good milage with authors like Mike Stackpole and Timmothy Zhan. The rest are very hit-and-miss.
You can add S. Perry, who penned Shadows of the Empire which I found very Star Warsy - OK Rendar was Solo 2.0, rougher, and Perry had the advantage of borrowing from two movies (he linked TESB to ROTJ), but it was very enjoyable. Besides, he was working from a game background if I get my production order right, but there are people who could have screwed ethat up.

Salvatore also did a very good job with the darker era of Star Wars. Vector Prime was an ace intro to the NJO. I did read two or more NJO books from that one and they were entertaining as well. The NJO seemed to be a solid and well thought whole storyarc at that point. I can't tell for the rest, I haven't read much.

Zahn has also written many short stories, which are found in EU supplements and magazines I think.
As far as everything else, the Rabid Warsies will continue to thump their religion as long as they have moderators or anything else to back them up. If they cannot overwhelm you by spouting nonsense over and over, they will try to overwhelm you with shear numbers, like they tried to do to JMS on the former ST.com forum, and barring all else, they will run to their mod friends and get you banned or the thread shut down. Until the mods at SB.com are ousted and a new order established, that is the way things will stay there no matter what the majority of the membership thinks or says.
-Mike
Well we don't really want it to turn out into a pro-Trek, pro-Gate, pro-Halo, pro-whatever instead of the pro-SW and pro-WH40K it is atm. So the best thing would be to have more mods from all sides.
Mike DiCenso wrote:snip

But no, they handwave it all away by declaring it chain-reaction. Hypocrites.
-Mike
Of course it's hypocrisy. Although most of such pronouncements are flowery language, no matter the universe, it's amusing how a few select franchises should be treated as if those statements were literal truths.

Random Tyrant of the Week: "I CAN CRUSH THIS PLANET IF I WANT TO!!"

Mkay.

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Re: Alderaan size.

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 18, 2010 5:41 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Conversely, also look at how the Warsies, Wong in particular, try to dismiss DET-like effects from episodes such as the Species 8472 destruction of a Borg planet, with who knows what defenses the Borg have there, the beam from 9 ships an insignificant fraction of a Death Star's size drilled into the planet, sending up massive waves of glowing ejecta material into space at escape velocity, the crust cracking about the entire body, and then make it blow apart.

But no, they handwave it all away by declaring it chain-reaction. Hypocrites.
-Mike

Dude the hipocrisy is the fact that i had a theory that about the DS causing a chain reaction effect and those same ppl who support the effect on wongs site banned me, claiming that "it made no sense to anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of physics!".......

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