Saxton and Star Wars

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Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 11, 2010 6:20 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
You got that right:
Most Rabid fans of anything hate debating with Mr. O because he comes prepared, doesn't take shit from anybody, and will take apart bad arguments faster then a weedwacker took apart my mother's flowers so very long ago... :)

And what's even worse for them is that they know their usual red herrings of calling someone a Rabid Trekkie while ignoring the points that were brought up doesn't work, because Mr. O isn't one...
Yea i have seen his posts, its like a encyclopedia of stuff on SW that i have never heard of, and in regards to that i just got asked this and replied as you see:-

Rabid warsie wrote:Incidentally, 'In its face', refers to the fact that the DS approached within six planetary diameters of Alderaan(per the ANH novelization), Which is some 75000 km. Surface area of a sphere with a diameter of 87500 km is some 2.4 billion square km, the Death Star's facing surface is some 20106 square kilometers. So the DS had to take 1/1200000th of the explosion of Alderaan on the chin. Which amounts to just short of 1E32 joules coming right back at it.
Me wrote:Ok i see a couple of issues here that i am a little confused about.

1. We see alderaan explode from a position in front of the DS because we see the beam pass by us but we do not see the explosion reach the camera position let alone reach the DS (im using the wongite "suspension of disbelief" thing that says the camera is real ect ect).

2. Even if the DS stuck around and the explosions leading edge did reach as far as the DS i would say that the energy from the explosion would be spread out within the volume of the 75000km sphere and not all in the leading edge.

Sorry buddy but you are not only assuming that the DS stuck around after the planet blew, but that all the energy from the explosion would be contained in the leading edge or in fact that any of it reached that far when the visual evidence from the movie clearly shows otherwise.


So am i right wrong or somewhere in between?.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue May 11, 2010 8:45 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: Yea i have seen his posts, its like a encyclopedia of stuff on SW that i have never heard of, and in regards to that i just got asked this and replied as you see:-
Wookiepedia is your friend.
Rabid warsie wrote:Incidentally, 'In its face', refers to the fact that the DS approached within six planetary diameters of Alderaan(per the ANH novelization), Which is some 75000 km. Surface area of a sphere with a diameter of 87500 km is some 2.4 billion square km, the Death Star's facing surface is some 20106 square kilometers. So the DS had to take 1/1200000th of the explosion of Alderaan on the chin. Which amounts to just short of 1E32 joules coming right back at it.
Me wrote:Ok i see a couple of issues here that i am a little confused about.

1. We see alderaan explode from a position in front of the DS because we see the beam pass by us but we do not see the explosion reach the camera position let alone reach the DS (im using the wongite "suspension of disbelief" thing that says the camera is real ect ect).

2. Even if the DS stuck around and the explosions leading edge did reach as far as the DS i would say that the energy from the explosion would be spread out within the volume of the 75000km sphere and not all in the leading edge.

Sorry buddy but you are not only assuming that the DS stuck around after the planet blew, but that all the energy from the explosion would be contained in the leading edge or in fact that any of it reached that far when the visual evidence from the movie clearly shows otherwise.

So am i right wrong or somewhere in between?.

You're on the right track. You might want to read up on this article on the Inverse Square Law (Hey, I'm not doing all your homework for you!). A few other points of information. The ANH novelization does indeed say that the Death Star approached to 6 planetary diameters of Alderaan, however in the aftermath of the planet's destruction according again to the novelization, where the Falcon came out of hyperspace is said to have been about 1 planetary diameter from where the surface of the former planet should have been, and at this point, as in the movie, the Corellian pirate ship is in the midst of a heavy asteroidal debris field, which was all that remained of Alderaan. So what we have is that the Death Star superlaser, however that weapon may work, destroyed Alderaan, but did not impart enough energy in the resulting explosion to totally fling a good sized portion the planet's debris to complete escape velocity. We also know from the movie and the novelization, that it took a while for the Falcon to make visual contact with the battlestation while it was chasing the scout TIE fighter. So the Death Star probably was either knocked a good distance away from where it fired by the resulting explosion, or it moved away just immediately after firing, or it moved away in the interm after firing.
-Mike

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 11, 2010 9:26 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:

You're on the right track. You might want to read up on this article on the Inverse Square Law.
Now il not claim to understand that fully with all the aspects of it but in ragerds to this quote:-
Incidentally, 'In its face', refers to the fact that the DS approached within six planetary diameters of Alderaan(per the ANH novelization), Which is some 75000 km. Surface area of a sphere with a diameter of 87500 km is some 2.4 billion square km, the Death Star's facing surface is some 20106 square kilometers. So the DS had to take 1/1200000th of the explosion of Alderaan on the chin. Which amounts to just short of 1E32 joules coming right back at it.
The figure he quotes as "1E32 joules" seems to require that the explosion spread its energy equally in all directions and that it had unlimited range. Now i apologize if im being dense but the explosion was not exactly equal in all directions and i do not think it had unlimited range either. Would not some of the energy be converted to light, heat and some kinetic as we see the explosion firstly push rock away from the planet surface and then see the second explosion overtake those rocks.

Now i suppose if the DS had sat there for long enough and been hit by every last particle of alderaan that was heading in its direction (fast stuff first and the slower stuff last) that was not eventually slowed by the gravity of other stuff then it would have been hit by quite a bit OVERALL energy of one sort or another in the time it sat there, but the way i read your link it does not seem to me it would have got hit by a single 1E32 joules blast/shockwave in one shot?.

Am i way off and if so what did i miss?.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue May 11, 2010 10:37 pm

You had two choices, when analyzing the "Alderaan's demise" movie sequence: limit yourself to the basics, which is that a green beam hit the planet and it exploded and that's all. You'd estimate how much energy you'd need to scatter the mass of a planet that violently, and there, you'd have a big nice figure. From there you would say that the weapon delivered that energy into the planet. Eventually, you'd use this evidence and either scale down the battle station's reactor to guess the power generation capacity of an Imperial warship, or you'd rely on the Dodonna and Solo quotes from ANH to make a big figure:
Han Solo wrote: The entire starfleet couldn't destroy the whole planet. It'd take
a thousand ships with more fire power than I've...
Dodonna wrote: The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a
firepower greater than half the star fleet. It's defenses are designed
around a direct large-scale assault. A small one-man fighter should be
able to penetrate the outer defense.
Or, still strictly working from the movie, you'd pay attention to ALL facts, all aspects of the event, all noticeable behaviours. Regardless of the topic about the presence of a shied or not, you would notice, first, that there were two explosions, that the second came after the beam had totally vanished from the screen. You would point ou the odd delay, question its cause. The other side wouldn't.
You'd point out that the major explosion, the second one, the one which really cracked the planet, occurred on the other side of the planet. Which means that the propagation of debris would be done under the same force in all directions, and that the side of the planet which the Death Star faced would actually fly slower than the opposite side.
Continuing your analysis, you'd see that the explosion slowed down, and that it even partially collapsed, meaning that the debris would actually not be flying as fast as they initially did.
Last but not least, since the Special Edtion (97), you'd notice the addition of the rings, which are a daring proof the other side hates to acknowledge or even attempt to explain, because it reminds them, rather bluntly, that something weird went on there, and that they hate it. They hate it, because they know that weird equals opening the door to technobabble, and they were rather happy with their selective raw Direct Energy Transfer (DET) stance on the question, that it was just a beam of highly energetic particles, nothing more, rated at x e38 J.

RSA made lots of clever observations about this on website, under the Death Star section.
From his website, you can step to the second phase, the one which involves using inferior canon. From there, you'd look at the ANH novelization, and notice that some details begin to stick out.

But it really gets funny when you drop one level on the canon level and end in the Expanded Universe, the source of much information, accepted by the other side. So it means that they wouldn't dismiss it.
One striking element is that you would notice the conflicting sources, and the recurring claim in several of them that the battle station had a fusion core, which literally caps how much energy the Death Star could produce.
For example, even if it were a 120 km wide ball of iron, annihilating its entire mass (and therefore that would mean that half of it was anti-iron), you'd get 6.4 e35 joules of energy.
Three orders of magnitude less than the figure attached to the destruction of the planet. Then you'd remember that we're dealing with fusion, and that the best fusion reaction is a much less powerful reaction than annihilation of matter and antimatter, by roughly more than two orders of magnitude.

They would also ignore other sources which directly compared the firepower of the superlaser array mounted on the Eclipse-class warship to the Death Star's own weapon system. They'd also describe the effect of the Eclipse Superlaser (E-SL), pegging it a specific fraction of the DS-SL and you'd realize that the effects were terribly short of what you'd obtain if you applied this fraction to the figures claimed by the other side.
You can see more about this in the following thread: Turbolasers make my head hurt, and perhaps those two posts of mine.

While ignoring a great many older sources, Wong, Saxton and the people they exchanged mails with kept going on with the x e38 J, which Saxton finally enabled officially by inventing the annihilation of hypermatter through the AOTC:ICS.
Before that, hypermatter was only named in the first and much older ICS, with no explanation of what it did or how it behaved.

Then came out "Death Star", the book. There's been plenty of discussions about this book, and needless to say that it completely pulverized the DET model to the four corners of the universe. It also took care of the Dodonna quote, by explaining that the regular surface weapons would be greater than any fleet which could ever exist, even one that would include Super-class warships.
It also gave an example of the firepower of the superlaser and certainly proved beyond a doubt the exotic nature of the weapon.
It also pointed out that a portion of Alderaan's mass was boosted into hyperspace. Which meant the energy figure for scattering the planet's mass was now wrong.

They tried to apply a figure to the hyperspace boosting -that while ignoring that no hyperdrive was present- by looking at an old quote they have continuously misquoted for ages, and twisted to make it mean what it would not need to mean: as a matter of fact, Saxton and Wong never managed to come with one unique, full and proper version of the quote on their respective websites (alt link for the whole thread, or l33telboi's first calc I can remember about the Death Star's low yield shots, which I consider still very generous since the quote also spoke of burning cities with several of those low powered shots).
Amusingly, the quote they twisted and abused, from page 18 of the SWTJ, also said that the reactor contained what in essence was a miniature sun. From the same book which also said that the Death Star was powered by a big fusion reactor. An annoying fact, for their teratons, surely.

Older sources, which would also point out that the reactor of the DS was fusion based, would repeat the movie and say that the superlaser had a firepower greater than half the starfleet.
However, between the effects observed with Death Star, the real energy the beam has (petatons at best), and the fact that the entire starfleet would count millions of ships of varying tonnage, on the higher end of the spectrum you'd end with an average of a couple gigatons per warship, or megatons with the lesser ranges.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed May 12, 2010 5:15 am

Mike DiCenso wrote: You're on the right track. You might want to read up on this article on the Inverse Square Law.
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Now il not claim to understand that fully with all the aspects of it but in ragerds to this quote:-
It's how energy radiated radially (a light bulb's light, an explosion, ect) disipates over distance. Twice the distance from the point of origin will mean that the energy is now at least 4 times weaker. As that distance is double the radiant energy is spread out even more and becomes weaker still. So in the Death Star and Alderaan's case, we have to think in terms of where the explosion originated in the planet (regardless of the mechanism.) and the actual distance from the explosion to the Death Star, assuming the battlestation even stayed put. So if the DS is 6 planetary diameters from the surface of Alderaan, you can add an additional 6,250 km to the 75,000 km distance, assuming the explosion occured in the exact center of the planet's core. So, on top of the Death Star only being hit by a tiny fraction of the radiant energy of the explosion (and any kinetic debris), the energy that was intercepted will be many orders of magnitude weaker than if the Death Star had been sitting only a km from the planet's surface. This also assumes that the explosion was perfectly distributed, of course. It could be more in one direction, or considerably less in another depending on a wide variety of factors.
-Mike

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Sunburst » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:17 am

Another point I'd like to make.

In regards to naming the classes of ships, what in the world were they thinking?

We've got Star Destroyers, and even though they have "destroyer" in the name, they are clearly a hybrid battleship, carrier. Destroyer is meant as a menacing term, as in this space ship is going to destroy stuff, as opposed to the real world meaning of a ship that's classed as a destroyer, which is more of an escort vessel, sub killer or a torpedo boat.

So my question is why does anyone even acknowledge the dreadnought thing? As in calling Super Star Destroyers, dreadnoughts? There's the fact that the destroyer in starwars land can be a battleship, carrier hybrid so changing what they're called is silly; the Executor already had a class name that was even stated on screen by Akbar. There's also the fact that the Super Star Destroyer isn't a dreadnought at all. Real world dreadnoughts by definition are big capital ships with a lot of armor, but they also mainly used big guns, only using smaller guns to fight off smaller ships like destroyers. I'll reiterate, dreadnoughts were designed to carry and fire big guns as apposed to past main line ships that used a variety of gun calibers. This was for range calculation purposes. Regardless, an SSD has at least 4 types of weapons (if you're like me at only subscribed to the old school tech manuals) which are: Heavy Turbo Lasers, Turbo Lasers, Ion Cannons, and Concussion Missiles. So since SSD's are not even real world dreadnoughts why try to change the class name, especially when the original was just fine to begin with?

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:02 am

To answer your question you have to start asking yourself this one first: What is Saxton's motivation for doing this? What he and by extension his Versus debate buddies gain is making it look as though the Galactic Empire has such a vast industrial capability that mile long Imperial Star Destroyers are medium-small, highly common vessels. So even though your observation about the role of the ISD is the correct one, the Saxtonite viewpoint is geared around diminishing it's role to that of a frigate or destroyer in modern real life parlance as a self-enhancement of the view of the GE as the incredible industrial uber power.

You might also want to take note that Saxton has not done a whole lot to update his website to take into account the new Clone Wars TV series or the EU Death Star novel. Both of which are far and away from his view (and that of his Versus debate buddies) of what Star Wars technology is supposed to be.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:58 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:To answer your question you have start asking yourself this one first: What is Saxton's motivation for doing this?
His motivation to me seemed to be money and personal bias.

Star Wars Episode I: Incredible Cross Sections bombed so massively (pulping 9 million copies) that it brought DK to virtual financial ruin causing them to be bought out by Pearson PLC.

So they needed the next book to have a major selling point, they got a individual with few qualifications and a known personal bias to generate highly inflated statistics for the book. Using rather dubious material for referance and ignoring several contradictory facts and disgarded laws of physics the AOTC: ICS was born and hit the market like a thunder bolt.

I doubt there has been a more discussed tech manual in all of sci-fi history and speaking as a former sales person i have to admire the audacity of the marketing strategy as it was superb.

However the fact the books stats were not shown in any way in any of the movies and that they directly contradicted (by being considerably higher) than the statistics the author himself had posted on his own web site most sane individuals see them for the joke they are.




The view points in regards to ships are also structured to considerably increase the size and power of the fleets beyond what is seen or reasonable to assume from any acceptable canon material that is why the site ect has not been updated with the more recient material.
Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:38 pm

Nebulon-B and Corellian gunships would be destroyers, and eventually the Munificents would be dreadnoughts.
All other classes are indeed hybrids. The Executor is just... something odd. It's a symbol, under gunned for her size.
Saxton's nomenclature is absurd and complicated, and seems geared at categorizing an ISD as an escort ship, and thus allowing for claims about large quantities of them.
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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:48 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: I doubt there has been a more discussed tech manual in all of sci-fi history and speaking as a former sales person i have to admire the audacity of the marketing strategy as it was superb.
It may be highly discussed, but is it selling well? Certainly you can say that a niche group of fans went out and bought it, but I do not recall, nor can I immediately find any indication that the AoTC ICS made it to the best seller list.

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: However the fact the books stats were not shown in any way in any of the movies and that they directly contradicted (by being considerably higher) than the statistics the author himself had posted on his own web site most sane individuals see them for the joke they are.
Also note that by the time of the third SW ICS book and the second Saxton-authored one, the obvious SI sats are curiously edited out, though a few text descriptions about hyperspace range, speed, and few other indirect references managed to be sneaked through. I also note that the compilation book added a few new entries to the ships and vehicle list, it also curiously does not put SI sats to them, though they kept the Saxton AoTC entries untouched. Furthermore, Dr. Saxton it would appear is not being asked to come back and author or add anything to the newer Clone Wars CGI series DK books as well.
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: The view points in regards to ships are also structured to considerably increase the size and power of the fleets beyond what is seen or reasonable to assume from any acceptable canon material that is why the site ect has not been updated with the more recient material.
Bingo!
-Mike

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by 2046 » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:31 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Star Wars Episode I: Incredible Cross Sections bombed so massively (pulping 9 million copies) that it brought DK to virtual financial ruin causing them to be bought out by Pearson PLC.

So they needed the next book to have a major selling point, they got a individual with few qualifications and a known personal bias to generate highly inflated statistics for the book. Using rather dubious material for referance and ignoring several contradictory facts and disgarded laws of physics the AOTC: ICS was born and hit the market like a thunder bolt.

I doubt there has been a more discussed tech manual in all of sci-fi history and speaking as a former sales person i have to admire the audacity of the marketing strategy as it was superb.
I reject most of the statements above, and find them completely insane.

Even if I accept the tale of 9 million copies of the Ep1 ICS being pulped . . . a tale which makes no sense given the fact that just 1.4 million copies of the film novelization were sold in hardcover (meaning even including paperback they probably didn't hit 9), which is a rockin' good sales level for books . . .

. . . And even if I accept that DK lost all business sense and banked so heavily on this single children's book that its failure brought them to ruin . . .

. . . Even accepting all these things as true, you then basically argue that DK's recovery strategy was to go deep into the weeds of the frakking Vs. Debate and make a book that would be controversial to participants in a geek war consisting of perhaps hundreds of active people since 1990 or so, with an author considered polarizing by that group, and hoping then that at least half that geek war group would be sure to buy it.

That is absurdity of the first order. I'm even having trouble coming up with an analogy of the absurdity, simply because it's so absurd.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:59 pm

2046 wrote: Even if I accept the tale of 9 million copies of the Ep1 ICS being pulped . . .a tale which makes no sense given the fact that just 1.4 million copies of the film novelization were sold in hardcover (meaning even including paperback they probably didn't hit 9), which is a rockin' good sales level for books . . .
Just check it is actually quite well documented.
. . . And even if I accept that DK lost all business sense and banked so heavily on this single children's book that its failure brought them to ruin . . .
It cost them a lot and was a considerably large factor in them getting bought out, also documented.


2046 wrote:. . . Even accepting all these things as true, you then basically argue that DK's recovery strategy was to go deep into the weeds of the frakking Vs. Debate and make a book that would be controversial to participants in a geek war consisting of perhaps hundreds of active people since 1990 or so, with an author considered polarizing by that group, and hoping then that at least half that geek war group would be sure to buy it.

That is absurdity of the first order. I'm even having trouble coming up with an analogy of the absurdity, simply because it's so absurd.
Nowwhile im sure you may feel that a publisher may be all about art, literature or whatever you are more than smart enough to know the reason they do things is to sell more books and make money. Introducing stats when the earlier versions did not have any, and the book immediately prior to it also without any bombed had to have a reason and publishers only change things to sell more books and make money.

If your last book bombed and you wrote another would you make it identical to the last one or make additions that you thought would make it sell?....Sounds perfectly reasonable when put like that maybe?...

But i suppose there could be another reasonable answer for the publisher to make changes/additions after the prior book bombed other than increasing sales and im willing to listen if you have one.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by The Dude » Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:48 pm

Well could you, ya know supply some proof? Because I have a pretty hard time believing that as well, especially since it concerns the VS debate it should have been mentioned somewhere before now.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by sonofccn » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:55 am

Add me to the list as well. I find it very hard to believe any company would stoop to betting on VS fanboys to save thier company.

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Re: Saxton and Star Wars

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:39 am

Sorry i was unaware you did not know the story regarding it.
In 1999 DK printed 18 million Star Wars books but sold considerably less than half of them, leaving the company with crippling debt. As a direct result, DK was taken over the following year by the Pearson PLC media company, and made part of Penguin Group, which also owns the Penguin Books label.

At the time of the takeover by Pearson, the DKFL (Dorling Kindersley Family Learning) product was being sold through a network of sales operatives, mainly home-based representatives who sold the product to schools and institutions through direct selling, and also through party-plan style selling for less formal sales events. Unfortunately, due to the crippling debts, this huge DKFL marketing workforce was terminated with only a few weeks notice, putting many sales representatives, with, in some cases over 1000 in their network, out of work. The impact of the Star Wars printing issue had far reaching consequences for many people across the country.
I will try to find a older news story regarding the events as the occoured but considering the time frame it may take some time.
Add me to the list as well. I find it very hard to believe any company would stoop to betting on VS fanboys to save thier company.
The company was not saved in regards to the orignal owners it was bought out.

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