Deadliest Warrior on Spike TV

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:22 am

How many here have seen this show? I just found out about it, and because it's basically doing the exact same thing a token vs. debater does, I got interested, and so far I like what I'm seeing.

The best part is when they're testing the weapons, using them on ballistic gel bodies and against armor of various types. It's sheer awesome to see just how much damage a token spear or blade will do. There are some bits I don't like though, like the banter between the two sides, I know it's there because it makes for good entertainment (or at least, that's why I think it's supposed to be there), but it just goes over the top. I also don't much like the end battle. Yeah, it's there to look cool and nothing more, but still, there's a lot of cheese in those fights.

What I would be really interested in would be to get a peek at the program they're using to figure out who will win, because it seems somewhat accurate, it can at least figure out which weapons will be the most effective to a nice degree (like the Pirate having the most kills with the blunderbuss against an armored Knight). I'd also like a better understand of just how all these factors are used, or even just what factors there are, the computer guy said that there's something like 10 factors for each weapon they feed into the program. So what are those factors?

All in all, an enjoyable show, though it could be a lot better if they just cut down on the badmouthing, the fanboyism and increased the details geeks like us would appreciate.

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:12 pm

The pirate needed to fight the ninja...and they didn't do it. How fucked up is that?

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:15 pm

Too controversial. It was better to go with the IRA versus the Taliban.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:09 pm

Like it or not, that egregious fan attitude is common in Vs debates online. I heard lots of pretty childish-sounding smack talk on the screen, and none of it would've been out of place on a VS forum. I've seen little bits of a number of episodes, but the only one I watched all the way through was the Apache vs Gladiator episode.

I think that by the standards of VS debate, they're doing pretty well. From the screenviews that you see, I'm pretty sure their model is being run on Excel - you can actually build a stochastic model on Excel, believe it or not - and I would want to look at that to evaluate their work. However, I have to say that there seemed to be a few failings in their methodology. They seem to be operating under the assumption that each warrior uses all of a set of available weapons, while usually, they're only armed with some smaller subset.

Some of the weapon choices seemed a stretch, too. For example, for the gladiator, they came out with the sling - a weapon of antiquity not often seen in the Roman arenas, and one that frankly, I would be surprised to see a gladiator expert in. Interestingly, there were archer-gladiators of a sort (saggitarii). They also, when testing the sling, used a mechanical bullet-firing device instead of an actual sling, since apparently they couldn't find someone who could actually hit with it.

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:08 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:They seem to be operating under the assumption that each warrior uses all of a set of available weapons, while usually, they're only armed with some smaller subset.

Indeed. I think this is supposed to account for the fact that there are lots of different gladiators and lots of different apache, so they get to use a wider variety of weapons rather then just one or two.

Some of the weapon choices seemed a stretch, too. For example, for the gladiator, they came out with the sling - a weapon of antiquity not often seen in the Roman arenas, and one that frankly, I would be surprised to see a gladiator expert in.

This, I think, is a failing on the part of the 'experts'. From what I've seen, they appear to bring a lot of different weapons to the party, but only very few get used in the end. One for each appropriate category. I'm guessing that the teams get to choose what weapons their combatant will use, and in this case, I'm guessing the gladiator team went with the sling because they needed something long-ranged. Having said that... it got a grand total of 1 kill due to the somewhat lacking accuracy, so I think it was somewhat of a mistake on their part.

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:40 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
I think that by the standards of VS debate, they're doing pretty well. From the screenviews that you see, I'm pretty sure their model is being run on Excel - you can actually build a stochastic model on Excel, believe it or not - and I would want to look at that to evaluate their work.

I'm pretty convinced that they just assign an arbitrary number to a weapon based on the tests you see on the show, plug it into Excel and whichever warrior ends up getting the biggest number "wins." Just about as simplistic of a comparison as you can get, and I don't think I need to speak on the flaws of that.

Some of the weapon choices seemed a stretch, too. For example, for the gladiator, they came out with the sling - a weapon of antiquity not often seen in the Roman arenas, and one that frankly, I would be surprised to see a gladiator expert in. Interestingly, there were archer-gladiators of a sort (saggitarii). They also, when testing the sling, used a mechanical bullet-firing device instead of an actual sling, since apparently they couldn't find someone who could actually hit with it.

Yeah, the producers have stated that they're biased towards "exotic" weapons (it is a SpikeTV show after all) but I think they also like building in an advantage towards one side too (probably for the sake of interest). Ever wonder why the Green Berets were stuck with an entrenching shovel as their "deciding weapon" instead of an actual combat knife, (tactical tomahawks) (and I'm not talking about missiles, though they can be thrown) or actual ballistic knives of their own? Because the producers said so.

Also, some of the match-ups are truly bizarre. Spartan vs. Ninja? WTF?

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:25 pm

l33telboi wrote:Too controversial. It was better to go with the IRA versus the Taliban.

Maybe, but with how they did the pirate and the armored dude, they'd probably say the pirate won because of the level of technology he uses, the gun, the bombs. It's hard to ninja your way out of a bomb. What are you gonna do, kick it back to him? And risk setting it off and fucking up your foot, if not your whole body? You can't swing at it with a sword. The best you could do is throw a rock at it, so it explodes in the air and throw stars at the pirate.

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:11 pm

Well, it really would depend upon the yield of the bomb. If it is a low yield bomb, with a small area of effect, then it isn't inconceivable for the ninja to jump out of the way. I mean, they are supposed to be near peak human level in terms of speed and agility.

Besides, a ninja would never attack a pirate head on, he would sneak up on him and stab him in the back. It is doubtful that a drunken pirate would be aware of the ninja before it's too late. Ninja would take the pirate, easy.

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:50 am

After thinking about it, I've come to one conclusion:

If Max Geiger were in charge of the US Military, 100% of the defense budget would go to nuclear missiles since they do the most damage.

GStone · Post by **GStone** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:39 am

As much as I'm into martial arts, that ninja better use a long sword because the drunken pirate can sit his gun on the bar he's drunk at, as the barrel rests on his "weightlifting arm" and pull the trigger. And being drunk, his loosened body will better absorb the recoil. So [sticks tongue out playfully]. ;-)

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:30 am

Yeah, but the barrel gives up the aim. It wouldn't be hard for him to just dodge the aim, assuming of course, that the ninja is familiar with guns, which it probably would not be.

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 6:20 am

I think you're missing the point - they don't look much at tactics, they seemingly strictly look at how "deadly" a weapon is, strictly by how much physical damage it can do to a ballistic simulate or a pig's body, give it an arbitrary number like that and base the score strictly off of that information, with biggest number coming out on top.

Not only that, but the "data analysis" is based strictly on two guys looking at said simulate or pig's body and going, "well, I think that will kill a man better than that" or "nah, that weapon doesn't kill at all." This is how things like a ninja's "black eggs" or the spitting poison of Shaka Zulu get zero scores - they're completely ignoring the tactical significance and the whole reasons why those weapons even exist in the first place.

They do a lot of other bull&%$! stuff too, like judging the M24 to be better than the Dragonov just because the former managed to get shots in between the eyes even though the latter still got very lethal head shots (though I'm surprised they didn't choose the Dragonov over the M24 because of its semi-automatic capability).

So yeah, I can plug a bunch of big numbers into a Monte Carlo simulation on Excel for "a thousand times" and come out with bug numbers in the end too. Can I haz my ITT degree nao?

That said, it's still a good show (though for perhaps the wrong reasons, I think it's one of the greatest comedies on TV right now) and I sincerely hope they pull off a second season.

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:07 am

ILikeDeathNote wrote:they don't look much at tactics

From what I've gathered, it looks a bit like this:

They decide the range of the weapon, the speed of the weapon, the deadliness of the weapon, and how well you can block other attacks with the weapon. When it comes to the speed of the weapon, that's based on how the weapon is used, how quickly can you swing the weapon at the enemy repeatedly, etc. Which essentially is the tactics aspect when it comes to the weaponry.

This is why during the tests they usually say stuff like "you have two seconds to attack the target", etc.

they seemingly strictly look at how "deadly" a weapon is, strictly by how much physical damage it can do to a ballistic simulate or a pig's body, give it an arbitrary number like that and base the score strictly off of that information, with biggest number coming out on top.

It think they deal more with probabilities. As in: The weapon has x chance to hit the enemy, if it hits it has y chance to deal a fatal blow, if it isn't fatal it has z chance to daze the opponent, etc.

This is how things like a ninja's "black eggs" or the spitting poison of Shaka Zulu get zero scores - they're completely ignoring the tactical significance and the whole reasons why those weapons even exist in the first place.

This is actually completly wrong. They've twice on the aftermath said that they factor these things in. The black eggs won't kill a dude, but they will temporarily daze him and allow the ninja to kill him with another weapon.

All in all, I recommend watching the aftermaths, where the creators of the show answer questions like the above. The one above has already been asked and replied to twice. First when it came to the black eggs and then when it came to Shaka's poison spit.

ILikeDeathNote · Post by **ILikeDeathNote** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:38 pm

l33telboi wrote:
This is actually completly wrong. They've twice on the aftermath said that they factor these things in. The black eggs won't kill a dude, but they will temporarily daze him and allow the ninja to kill him with another weapon.

Straight from the Wikipedia page, which I can at least confirm from the actual airing of the episode (format's all screwy but bear with me):

Spartan Ninja
Overall Kills: 653 347
Close Range: Short Sword: 52
Ninjato: 123
Mid Range: Spear: 210
Black Egg: 0
Long Range: Javelin: 9
Shuriken: 0

Blowgun: 4
Special Weapons: Shield: 382
Kusarigama: 220

I'll take up your suggestion to watch the Aftermath portions, but it really does seem like the "Deadliest Warrior" is whoever racks up the most kills in their little Monte Carlo (read: Excel) simulation, and that that is based directly on the precieved "deadliness" of a weapon.

Anyway, the subject of much fun and entertaining discussions on /k/ :)

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:15 pm

ILikeDeathNote wrote:I'll take up your suggestion to watch the Aftermath portions, but it really does seem like the "Deadliest Warrior" is whoever racks up the most kills in their little Monte Carlo (read: Excel) simulation, and that that is based directly on the precieved "deadliness" of a weapon.

The reason it says 0 is because the black eggs themselves didn't kill anyone. They're just meant to temporarily blind someone. Let's say the ninja, in one particular simulation, throws the black egg at the Spartan. The Spartan is temporarily blinded allowing the Ninja stabs him to death.

The results from that simulation will read:

Black Egg: 0
Knife: 1

See?