Karen Traviss

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:50 pm

As the Clone Wars now are showing, there is enough potential to tell other Star Wars stories without changing the whole universe.

One could have told stories about the rebellion - without changing the universe.

But that is not what happened.

As I have said, the universe was not only expanded but changed.

From a modest sized galaxy, which is not totally controlled by the Empire and in which the Death Star could only influence a region of the galaxy and not the whole galaxy to a huge galaxy, more than ten times as large as the average galaxy, that is nearly totally controlled by the Empire and in which ships can get to each point in a matter of days.

From the two Death Stars, which were unique in their size and ability, to a whole bunch of superweapons, who were bigger and even more destructive than the second Death Star.

From a few extra powers for the Jedi (and Sith) to semi-gods who are able to destroy planets and whole fleets only with the force. And so on and so one.

And now, that Lucas is continuing his story with the Clone Wars series, we see, how much the development in the EU contradicts not only his vision of Star Wars, but also what most people, who have watched the movies, have envisioned.

Nobody says, that it is bad to continue the story, where Lucas has left. And yes, that means, that, if Lucas decided to continue his story, that there would be alternate realities. But the EU authors have not only continued where Lucas has left, but have ravished, what Lucas has left.

I'm not sure, how to explain it.

As I have seen the movies, I have had an impression of that world. That impression was more or less congruent with what Lucas has envisioned as Star Wars. I can see that by viewing the Clone Wars series. That's more or less as I would have imagined it. Till now, there is nothing major element from which I would say that it surprises me.

But then, there were EU novels and after reading these, one would have come to the conclusion, that the impression of the Star Wars world was wrong.

Be honest.

Interdictors at Endor: If you wouldn't have read EU novels and wouldn't know that there are Interdictors, you would perceive the events at Endor totally different, wouldn't you.

Or planetary shields: If you would have only seen the movies, you wouldn't think, that there are planetary shields, which are covering whole planets. But for the plausibility of the EU, it is necessary that there are such shields.

Who is like God arbour · Post by **Who is like God arbour** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:52 pm

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight wrote:WILGA, I know that English is not your first language, so I hope you don't mind if I tell you that you really need to work on your comma placement. Some of them are completely unnecessary. Just trying to help. :)

Sorry, I stell use german comma rules.
It is easier to me to understand my own sentences with these commas because they separate thoughts.
Sometimes, I have really difficulties to understand your long sentences, if there are no commas.

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:41 pm

I have seen no Demi-gods who can destroy planets and fleets with the Force. The most overpowered Force move I have seen, was when Starkiller pulled down an SD in the Force Unleashed. That is a bit of a stretch, I will give you that.

I do not believe that the changed size of the galaxy was done intentionally. The only guideline we had was Lucas' statement that it was a modest sized galaxy. I believe that these size errors began as simple errors that were not caught by editors, because there were no specific parameters. Lucas, and these EU authors, are not, generally speaking, experts on astronomy. It wasn't until individuals with great amounts of knowledge, in physics and astronomy, began scrutinizing the material for the debate, that these errors were realized.

I have always been under the assumption that a great deal of the Galaxy was controlled by the Empire. This is why it was called the Galactic Empire, if there are sources that say otherwise, then I am mistaken. But, there were chunks of the Galaxy not under the control of the Empire, even in the EU.

There are the Unknown regions and the Hapes consortium, both fairly significant chunks of the galaxy that were not controlled by the Empire. Of course, both of these were retconned into existence by the EU authors, but they support the feel of the OT.

The massive amount of Superweapons are present in the EU because of tendencies shown by Palpatine(the Emperor) in the OT. He created the DS and it was destroyed, so how does he react? He builds the Executor, a Super Str Destroyer, for Vader. Then he builds the DSII. Even in the Movies, the Emperor had a penchant for Superweapons.

I will not argue that most of the SPs in the EU were highly unimaginative and rather redundant, but those were the work of poor authors, such as Kevin Anderson. Every franchise with multiple authors has people that are just not up to snuff.

There was at least one planetary shield shown in the movies(Endor), so I do not see where you are going with that. Granted, the shield was around the DSII, but we know that the technology was there. We know that Planetary shields did exist in Lucas' movies. You might be referring to the claims of planetary shields at Alderaan, I have no knowledge of this, so I cannot comment.

Now, militarily speaking, having interdictor cruisers make sense. I realize that they were never mentioned in the movies, but I do not think that the retcon changed the battle that much. It did change it a little, but not much. I agree, that it was a change that was made in order to make that scene in RotJ more plausible. However, I do not think this changes the spirit of the battle. You can out run an interdictor, it is a simple matter of retreating beyond the limits of their gravity wells. Since the rebels had empty space to their backs, they would have had, only, to turn around and run. Their would have been losses for the rebels, but they could still have retreated.

Adding military technology does not change the spirit of SW. It simply makes it more plausible. Luacs had no idea what he was doing when it came to the military. His ideas were rather childish. Improving upon those ideas, does not change the spirit of the story.

Again, there are many different stories in the EU not relating to Lucas' story. New stories. Often in a different era. They are still using the universe that Lucas created, but adding ideas and stories. I will admit that the NJO has a different feel. A different spirit, but, it is a different story. You musn't forget that different stories have a different feel. If there was a story about wookiee culture, it would not feel like SW, but it would still be SW.

Take the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Zahn. To me, those books felt like Star Wars. They felt like the movies. Just a continuation to Lucas' story.

My point is, that just because it feels different, doesn't mean it is. Star Trek always has the same basic story. It is a story that is quite open ended. It will always fell the same. SW simply is not designed that way.

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:52 pm

BTW, I hope that you take your time to consider my last post because it seems to have taken me a half an hour to write it. I'm not sure how that happened. *shakes head*

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:56 pm

Airlocke wrote:The most overpowered Force move I have seen, was when Starkiller pulled down an SD in the Force Unleashed. That is a bit of a stretch, I will give you that.

Actually, I read somewhere that there was a Force vortex created that destroyed a fleet of ships (created by a clone of Palpatine if I'm not mistaken).
Also, I believe it was Kip Durron who pulled a ship out of a star, or something like that.
Compared to the OT or PT levels of Force mastery displayed (Yoda and Palpatine struggling with senate Pods), you can see why WILGA (and I for that matter) think the EU is pushing it concerning the Jedi powers.

I have always been under the assumption that a great deal of the Galaxy was controlled by the Empire. This is why it was called the Galactic Empire,

Actually, seeing the arrogance displayed by that Empire, it could've been in control of only hlaf the galaxy and still have the gall to call itself the "Galactic Empire".
But I'm also under the impression, from the movies, that although it controls a great deal of the galaxy, there are many regions on the galactic rim that are not totally under its control, or even not at all...

The massive amount of Superweapons are present in the EU because of tendencies shown by Palpatine(the Emperor) in the OT. He created the DS and it was destroyed, so how does he react? He builds the Executor, a Super Str Destroyer, for Vader. Then he builds the DSII. Even in the Movies, the Emperor had a penchant for Superweapons.

Except that in every instance, it is clearly depicted as an immense undertaking, so much so that the second DS risked not being ready in time, even with all the ressources put into it.
It is clear that building both the DS II and the Executor pushed the ressources of the Empire greatly, or else why not build 3 or 4 more DS if it was that easy and cost that little in terms of ressources and manpower?

With that in mind, the amount of superweapons seen is illogical, and does not fit with what was previously seen in the movies...

I will not argue that most of the SPs in the EU were highly unimaginative and rather redundant, but those were the work of poor authors, such as Kevin Anderson. Every franchise with multiple authors has people that are just not up to snuff.

And yet, in the overall scale, his books are just as valid in the EU as Zhan's, meaning if someone ignores what he and KT write, he/she is basically cherry picking, and simply imposing him/herself as the grand guru of the SW EU...

You can out run an interdictor, it is a simple matter of retreating beyond the limits of their gravity wells.

Well, what's to keep the Interdictors to follow then, and to keep you from escaping?
Also, everything that affected the plot was referenced in the movies, so if if there had been Interdictors, some mention would have been made in the movie.

Take the Heir to the Empire trilogy by Zahn. To me, those books felt like Star Wars. They felt like the movies. Just a continuation to Lucas' story.

Yeah, but... err... actually, you got me there, I agree completely, Zhan's books are excellent and do keep the original SW feel... :)

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:31 pm

Airlocke wrote: The most overpowered Force move I have seen, was when Starkiller pulled down an SD in the Force Unleashed. That is a bit of a stretch, I will give you that.

Praeothmin wrote: Actually, I read somewhere that there was a Force vortex created that destroyed a fleet of ships (created by a clone of Palpatine if I'm not mistaken).
Also, I believe it was Kip Durron who pulled a ship out of a star, or something like that.

You are correct. Palpatine in Dark Empire uses Force Storms to attack and destroy a Rebel fleet , and when he loses control of it, it consumes not only him but the SSD Eclipse as well.

Airlocke wrote: I have always been under the assumption that a great deal of the Galaxy was controlled by the Empire. This is why it was called the Galactic Empire,

Praeothmin wrote:Actually, seeing the arrogance displayed by that Empire, it could've been in control of only hlaf the galaxy and still have the gall to call itself the "Galactic Empire".
But I'm also under the impression, from the movies, that although it controls a great deal of the galaxy, there are many regions on the galactic rim that are not totally under its control, or even not at all...

The EU and the PT movies are in serious conflict over this (and themselves); in AoTC, it is established that most, if not all of the SW galaxy is mapped and a planet "does not exist" if it is not found in the Jedi Archives. Whereas in the EU material, we have the Unknown Regions, where Thrawn is said to originate from and where he was sent by Palpatine on a mission of conquest for the Empire. We also have the Hapes Consortium, the Corportate Authority, and the Wild Space that could be isolated from the rest of the SW galaxy or was not under either the GR or GE control. Depending on which EU maps you look at, up to 30 percent or so of the SW galaxy was never under GE control, and at least 10-15% was never "explored". This contrasts greatly with AoTC's information on the SW galaxy, however, if the SW galaxy is so well explored by the time of the Clone Wars, then why did anyone still need scouts and prospectors like Dexter? Perhaps it is sign of the creeping corruption of arrogance and pride among the Jedi that Yoda complained of to Mace Windu that is the reason for librarian Jocasta Nu's statement to Obi-Wan.

Praeothmin wrote:Except that in every instance, it is clearly depicted as an immense undertaking, so much so that the second DS risked not being ready in time, even with all the resources put into it.
It is clear that building both the DS II and the Executor pushed the resources of the Empire greatly, or else why not build 3 or 4 more DS if it was that easy and cost that little in terms of resources and manpower?

There have been statements in the EU that the Executor cost enough to bankrupt several planets by itself. The relatively small numbers of star destroyers seen throughout the OT may be indicative of how much of a drain on the GE's resources the Death Stars really were. The first Death Star taking at least 23 years to design and build. The second Death Star according to the RoTJ novelization on page one was under construction "many years" after the destruction of the first one. The suprise and disbelief seen by Han Solo, who an experianced spacer, at the idea that the DS1 could be a space station indicates that there is little or nothing at all like them that has ever been built prior. This seems to be reinforced by the TCW where we see space stations of only a few kilometers across.

Much of this has been gone over before in great detail in this thread here
-Mike

l33telboi · Post by **l33telboi** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:52 pm

Praeothmin wrote:Many "Warsies" also hate Kevin J. Anderson because he made it possible for 12 X-Wings to take out an ISD, because, in their view, the ISD is the ultimate warship...

Kevin J. Anderson is not hated by only warsies. He's hated by anyone who's ever read one of his books. What he did for Star Wars is meager compared to what he did to Starcraft or Dune. The former of those two happens to be one of my favorite franchises, and he butchered it so completely, that it's been recovering ever since.

Yes, we're talking about technical details, like how Hydralisks can shoot down Battlecruisers. It's like a guy with a rifle taking down an Iowa-class Battleship. Actually the disparity is bigger then that but what can you do.

But in addition to this he butchers characters, like how he turned Arcturus into a mustache-twirling staurday morning cartoon villian, or how he turned Duke into nothing more then an orc. He copied entire sections from the manual word by word into the novel. What he did was unforgivable.

And so, warsies hating him would only be surprising if they didn't hate him.

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:06 pm

l33telboi wrote:It's like a guy with a rifle taking down an Iowa-class Battleship.

You can't????

Man, I bought that rifle for nothing...

:)

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:25 pm

l33telboi wrote: Kevin J. Anderson is not hated by only warsies. He's hated by anyone who's ever read one of his books. What he did for Star Wars is meager compared to what he did to Starcraft or Dune. The former of those two happens to be one of my favorite franchises, and he butchered it so completely, that it's been recovering ever since.

The Dune pre-quel and sequel books are a disturbing mish-mash of the very good (where Brian Herbert and his legendary father's writing shines through), and the awful hack-job nature of KJA's writing. But getting back on topic, it seems that for Warsies, KJA and Traviss are to the SW franchise as Berman and Braga are to the Trek.
-Mike

PunkMaister · Post by **PunkMaister** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:59 am

Who wrote Children of Dune? I saw the Scifi miniseries and loved the story hope it wasn't this KJA hackjob nut.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:52 pm

PunkMaister wrote:Who wrote Children of Dune? I saw the Scifi miniseries and loved the story hope it wasn't this KJA hackjob nut.

Nope. Children of Dune was written by Frank Herbert, it was published in 1977 and was the third of the six Dune Chronicles series that he was able to write.
-Mike

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:13 am

l33telboi wrote:Kevin J. Anderson is not hated by only warsies. He's hated by anyone who's ever read one of his books. What he did for Star Wars is meager compared to what he did to Starcraft or Dune. The former of those two happens to be one of my favorite franchises, and he butchered it so completely, that it's been recovering ever since.

I disagree with the claim that he's hated by everyone who's ever read one of his books. I actually enjoyed his X-wing novels at the time I read them - nice little adventurous romps - and I've also enjoyed a couple of his original novels.

He's also edited collections of SW stories that I enjoy. Books like Tales from Jabba's Palace just try to fill in the gaps inside of Lucas's story, and they're really some of the closest EU to Lucas's work as a result.

Mike DiCenso wrote:The Dune pre-quel and sequel books are a disturbing mish-mash of the very good (where Brian Herbert and his legendary father's writing shines through), and the awful hack-job nature of KJA's writing.

I haven't read any of the new Dune books, but I've heard some disturbingly bad reviews. From the nature of the reviews - something about inability to focus on a scene for the right amount of time? - I'm not really convinced that KJA is wholly to blame for the quality.

He's a professional at this. He may not be a Clarke or Asimov, but if he were genuinely bad, I doubt he would be having the career he is. Same with Traviss. I have not yet read the book in question inspiring this thread, though. I might not like it either.

Enterprise E · Post by **Enterprise E** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:20 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:I disagree with the claim that he's hated by everyone who's ever read one of his books. I actually enjoyed his X-wing novels at the time I read them - nice little adventurous romps.

Actually, I don't think that Kevin J. Anderson wrote any of the X-Wing novels. They were written by Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:47 am

Enterprise E wrote:
Jedi Master Spock wrote:I disagree with the claim that he's hated by everyone who's ever read one of his books. I actually enjoyed his X-wing novels at the time I read them - nice little adventurous romps.
Actually, I don't think that Kevin J. Anderson wrote any of the X-Wing novels. They were written by Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston.

.... and so they are. So why am I thinking of KJA when I think of X-wing novels? I guess it's been a while.

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:59 pm

I actually enjoyed the novel as a whole(the one that inspired this thread) but some of the characterizations were absolutely horrendous.

It would be like sitting down to ST, and instead of Kirk being a badass, he is an indecisive coward.

It would be like sitting down to watch and episode of the 50s TV show "Happy Days", and the Fonz is suddenly gay.

It is not that the novels are bad, but the characterization is. These character flaws wouldn't be noticed as much, if she wrote with a more conventional style. As it stands, she writes in a tight third person style, meaning that you see the world as the main characters do, but it is still third person. This type of style forces an author to have strong characterizations, and if you are writing in a well known series, with well known characters, any flaw in characterization is magnified tenfold.