Analysis: Darth Bane - Path of Destruction

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Actually, in most novels they only have a danger sense, which just gives them an impression of danger, they don't know what the danger is, mostly. Some authors do make it stronger than they should. d

[The Corporal]

Notice how the Precog ability in SW is always far more wanked in novels then what we see in movies?

I've never liked this aspect of Force-wankery in novels.
In the movies, Precog is an ability that gives the Jedi an advantage over multiple opponents, or even Blaster wielding opponents, because it gives some indication of where the next shot, or hit, will come from.
But it is far from perfect (the Jedi actually seems to need to know where danger lies or comes from for this to work) and doesn't garantee an "insta-win" against experienced opponents.

While in the novel, it is always boosted as a "knows everything that will happen instantly and where all danger is" kind of power.

I never liked its depiction in novels...

What about Palpatine? It seemed like he not only knew everything that was going on or going to go on but was activelly controlling it.

[Praeothmin]

What about Palpatine? It seemed like he not only knew everything that was going on or going to go on but was activelly controlling it.

Really?
So I guess he wasted Darth Maul on purpose, left Yoda and Obi-wan alive on purpose, and let Luke Skywalker turn his father back and got killed on purpose as well? :)

I think Palpatine was simply a really good planner, a bright, charismati leader (a bit like Hitler, or Emperor Hirohito).

He may have had some bits of "Force-enhanced" planning, but they were definitely not the clear images most people would like to believe...

[The Corporal]

Really?
So I guess he wasted Darth Maul on purpose, left Yoda and Obi-wan alive on purpose, and let Luke Skywalker turn his father back and got killed on purpose as well? :)

I think Palpatine was simply a really good planner, a bright, charismati leader (a bit like Hitler, or Emperor Hirohito).

He may have had some bits of "Force-enhanced" planning, but they were definitely not the clear images most people would like to believe...

Obviously he had set backs and some unanticiapted events but he sure as heck did a far better job then the Jedi did, even Yoda wasn't able to see their downfall.

I'm reminded of a line from Dark Apostle "in all the visions I've had of this event, we're killed in less than half of them" (paraphrased).

[Praeothmin]

Yes, he had some setbacks, which means that Precog isn't all that powerful, even if he was probably more powerful in this ability then Yoda (never said he wasn't), but my point is that Precog isn't all that the EU makes it, and I would not rely on it for long term planning...

[The Corporal]

What does the EU have them doing? I stopped at the KJA trilogy IIRC and since then I have only read Dark Lord.

[Praeothmin]

Well, most of the books I read had precog give them almost perfect "danger sense" à la Spiderman, where Force users can detect any danger, and block any attack from anywhere.

While in the movies, if the attack isn't coming from where the Jedi is looking, he can't block it (Luke vs Boba's grappling hook, Obi-Wan vs Jango's grappling hook).
In fact, in all the movies and cartoons, the only one who showed any ability to detect an attack before it happens is Yoda in RotS, when he senses the two Clones who are about to attack, even though he is concentrating on the battle below.
This, in my book, makes Yoda the foremost expert in Precog, so when he does tell Luke in TESB that the visions are uncertain, I believe him.

If Palpatine had had even half that ability in Precog, he would have felt Vader was about to turn on him, especially after witnessing the frantic calls Luke was throwing at his father...

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

Some novels DO have Jedi danger sense really strong, but in a lot of them, most that I have read, it is more of a sense that something bad is going to happen, they never know exactly what it is going to be. That is why when Jedi are fighting unfamiliar enemies(the Fetts) Jedi won't necessarily react in time to block the attack. Most of the time we see it used in the movies is in battle where the danger is almost certainly an explosion or a blaster bolt, occasionally falling debris. Regular people who are aware of there surroundings can avoid these things, now if you add a warning of danger to a battle seasoned Jedi with TK and a lightsaber, then not much should be able to harm them. The danger sense does not deal with line of sight, that only enhances it, but rather vibrations of the Force. So, when you say that they have to be looking in that direction, you are not quite correct, but close. The Jedi still have to know where the danger is coming from. An example of this would be in AotC when Obi-wan and Anakin are protecting Padme, and Anakin decides to use her as bait. Obi-wan and Anakin are arguing outside of the room when they both stop because of the danger they sensed from Padme's room. Another thing to consider is that when Anakin bursts into the room to save Pdme, he knows exactly what and where the danger is. He does not hesitate, he jumps and slashes. This scene seems to disprove your theory.

Another thing that I have to add is that not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some are strong in TK, others in precog, others in feeling the flow and will of the force. Others still, are adept at channeling the Force through their lightsabers, while others are very empathic and can more easily solve problems. Some Jedi excel in mind tricks and illusions while others are very sensitive to the all forms of life and can even sense the insects in the ground. My point is that you cannot gauge the full scale of the Jedis' abilities based on the ten Jedi that you saw in the films. It is true that not all of them were adept in battle, to the contrary, most were only a little more adept than the average non-Forcesensitive individual, but you can't discount the abilities of the Jedi because of this. Fans of the movies and, even more notoriously, casual viewers mistake the Jedi as warriors, but that is not what being a Jedi is about. It is about honor and justice, fairness and peace. The Jedi's job is most successful if lightsaber is never drawn. Take Obi-wan's nick-name for an example, "The Negotiator", he got this nick-name from his ability to solve problems without violence.

[Praeothmin]

Ok, let's start at the top:

Some novels DO have Jedi danger sense really strong, but in a lot of them, most that I have read, it is more of a sense that something bad is going to happen, they never know exactly what it is going to be.

Good, because in the novels I remember reading, it was a little more wanked out...

Most of the time we see it used in the movies is in battle where the danger is almost certainly an explosion or a blaster bolt, occasionally falling debris. Regular people who are aware of there surroundings can avoid these things, now if you add a warning of danger to a battle seasoned Jedi with TK and a lightsaber, then not much should be able to harm them.

Yes, and no.
I've yet to see anybody in the SW movies evade a Blaster bolt, only Jedi with their Lightsabres can deflect them.
And even then, even with their "Precog", it didn't stop the Jedi in AotC in th arena from being blasted by Jango who was standing right in front of him.
Then there's the Jedi in RotS, searching for some separatists, senses full on alert, so I assume Precog also, who got blasted in the back by the Clones.
If Precog was so good, she would have know that danger was at her back, even if she might not have expected it to be there...

The Jedi still have to know where the danger is coming from. An example of this would be in AotC when Obi-wan and Anakin are protecting Padme, and Anakin decides to use her as bait. Obi-wan and Anakin are arguing outside of the room when they both stop because of the danger they sensed from Padme's room. Another thing to consider is that when Anakin bursts into the room to save Pdme, he knows exactly what and where the danger is. He does not hesitate, he jumps and slashes. This scene seems to disprove your theory.

You are correct, I had forgotten about this incident, and it came to mind while I was rereading my post... :)

This shows that 2 other Jedi, both much more powerful then your average Jedi, both fully concentrating on danger, were indeed able to sense it even though they didn't know exactly where it was...
But just this incident, Airlocke, considering all the other that show us the opposite, doesn't disprove my theory, it only shows us another outlier (Yoda being the first one), which still goes against the majority of observed behavior.

Another thing that I have to add is that not all Jedi have the same abilities. Some are strong in TK, others in precog, others in feeling the flow and will of the force. Others still, are adept at channeling the Force through their lightsabers, while others are very empathic and can more easily solve problems. Some Jedi excel in mind tricks and illusions while others are very sensitive to the all forms of life and can even sense the insects in the ground. My point is that you cannot gauge the full scale of the Jedis' abilities based on the ten Jedi that you saw in the films.

I agree, that was one thing that I've been arguing for in quite a while, that not all Force users have the same ability in certain powers, or even have them at all.
But, as you say yourself, some are more powerful then others.
The three Jedi we've seen who've been able to sense danger even if they didn't see it were very powerful, and, in the case of Obi-Wan and Anakin, were fully concentrated on finding the danger.
It still didn't stop Obi-Wan from being entangled in Jango's grappling hook, or from being made prisoner by the Separatists (or Anakin, for that matter).
And judging by the Clone Wars serie, it still doesn't allow to detect everything everytime, and definitely not perfectly when it does...

Fans of the movies and, even more notoriously, casual viewers mistake the Jedi as warriors, but that is not what being a Jedi is about. It is about honor and justice, fairness and peace. The Jedi's job is most successful if lightsaber is never drawn.
Take Obi-wan's nick-name for an example, "The Negotiator", he got this nick-name from his ability to solve problems without violence.

I know tha basic precepts of the Jedi, but there's a big difference between what is shown in the highest form of Canon, the movies, and that precept.
And for a guy who's supposedly good at resolving conflicts without drawing his Lightsabre, Obi-Wan sure draws it out often in the movies and the serie...


Basically, Airlocke, all I'm saying is that I see too many Pro-Wars debaters use the "Force Precog for the Winzzzz" argument when debating tohers, and using examples in the EU to support their claims (when they do support them), so I simply wanted things to be set straight, and voice my displeasure at the portrayal of Force-Precog in the novels I remember reading.
That's all...

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

And I was just stating that I don't think you give it enough credit. I won't argue that all, or even half, of the Jedi can use this ability proficiently, but I don't believe that you have to be the best of the best, well, at least not particularly strong in the Force. I believe that it is all about the person's skill level, and not how in tune they are to the Force.

Take Obi-Wan for example, I do not consider him to be strong in the force. Every time we see him fight a Sith or Jedi who is proficient with the Force, he gets his ass handed to him. His fights against Dooku are good examples. Dooku only beats him because he is stronger with the Force. They are evenly matched when battling with the lightsabers. Lucas has even said that Obi-wan was the greatest swordsman ever in the Jedi Order, yet he always loses to Dooku. It is because of the Force. Also consider the fight with Darth Maul, he beat him with the Lightsaber and with almost no Force usage from either party. Also look at the OT fight with Vader, Obi-wan is clearly not as strong in the Force as Vader, yet when they draw the light sticks, they are evenly matched. Just theory of mine.

Now the relevance of the above theory, Obi-wan is not one of the stronger Force users, yet he is able to sense a danger to Padme, suggesting that not just the elite Jedi and Sith could use Precog.

Now, to address the Jedi that died in order 66, I must say that I have always felt that to be stupid and Lazy writing by Lucas. He creates the Jedi Order, shows them to be able to do amazing things, then has stupid clone troopers take them out. I guess the one good point is that it took many troopers for each Jedi. We saw no instance where one trooper took a Jedi out by himself. There were many troopers to each Jedi. It is possible that the deaths were unavoidable. Even the EU has limitations to the amount of blaster fire Jedi can handle at once.

Jango is an exception. Very simply put, he is the best of the best. Jedi are not invincible, even though it pains me to say so. Jango was supposedly the most dangerous man in the Galaxy, and a fitting match for a Jedi, I must admit that this baffles me, unless they are referring to the healers and life sensitive Jedi.

One more thing, you referenced people not being able to dodge blaster bolts? Did the Death Star never exist? I am certain I saw some blaster dodging there. Also, it would be akin to dodging a bullet, while unlikely and ridiculously difficult, is not impossible. The movies give us no indication that blaster bolts travel faster than bullets, therefore I maintain that it can be done.

Oh, I almost forgot, Obi-wan and Anakin seemed more concentrated on their argument than Padme, at least that is how I saw it.

[Praeothmin]

I don't know where you got that Obi-Wan is weak in the Force, or where you got that George said he was the best swordsman.

Obi-Wan, by holding his own vs Anakin in RotS, both using Lightsabres and the Force (remember the Force push incident where they both send the other flying accross the room?), has proven that he strong in the Force, and a very good swordman, but the best?
Everything I've read has always placed Yoda, Dooku and Mace Windu at the top spots, not Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan lost to Dooku both times because he had less experience, was worse then Dooku as a duelist, and hadn't been using the Force for as long as Dooku (and he wasn't tapping in the Darkside either, unlike Dooku).
Anakin only got the better of Dooku when he literaly started sucking Darkside like there was no tomorrow.

I know you love the Jedi, you think they're the coolest thing ever in SW, but the movies show us without a doubt that they are not the invincible Gods a lot of fans and EU writers make them out to be...

[Praeothmin]

I don't know where you got that Obi-Wan is weak in the Force, or where you got that George said he was the best swordsman.

Obi-Wan, by holding his own vs Anakin in RotS, both using Lightsabres and the Force (remember the Force push incident where they both send the other flying accross the room?), has proven that he strong in the Force, and a very good swordman, but the best?
Everything I've read has always placed Yoda, Dooku and Mace Windu at the top spots, not Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan lost to Dooku both times because he had less experience, was worse then Dooku as a duelist, and hadn't been using the Force for as long as Dooku (and he wasn't tapping in the Darkside either, unlike Dooku).
Anakin only got the better of Dooku when he literaly started sucking Darkside like there was no tomorrow.

I know you love the Jedi, you think they're the coolest thing ever in SW, but the movies show us without a doubt that they are not the invincible Gods a lot of fans and EU writers make them out to be...

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't know where you got that Obi-Wan is weak in the Force, or where you got that George said he was the best swordsman.

Obi-Wan, by holding his own vs Anakin in RotS, both using Lightsabres and the Force (remember the Force push incident where they both send the other flying accross the room?), has proven that he strong in the Force, and a very good swordman, but the best?
Everything I've read has always placed Yoda, Dooku and Mace Windu at the top spots, not Obi-Wan.

The only discipline Obi-Wan impresses me is at owning his own Padawan he'd know by name, and basic defense and attack against robots armed with blasters.
I don't think he's actually been that good.

I know you love the Jedi, you think they're the coolest thing ever in SW, but the movies show us without a doubt that they are not the invincible Gods a lot of fans and EU writers make them out to be...

No matter what one can say, there's nothing cooler than a Sith, safe when the Jedi are depicted like the Japanese-like cool monk warriors Qui-Gon Jinn style.

But the Sith, man... all revenge and gusto. Plus the red blades. :D

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

I actually prefer the green blades. Although, my preference would be a gold blade.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I actually prefer the green blades. Although, my preference would be a gold blade.

That's actually what I generally go with, but I cannot resist a perfect lightsabre effect when it goes red, as in for Maul's saber, where red is dead gorgeous. That and with the dark cloak and clothes, it's just simple and it works.

Mind you, I don't know why GL wanted the blade effect changed, I think the best ones are from TPM. All others in the PT look terribly amateurish, and as crude as the ones in Clone Wars.