Validity of the ICS

[Mr. Oragahn]

As far as I know, it is for real. It was copied off of Wayne Poe's own directory. This is the one thing that clinched it for me, and I suspect for Robert as well, too. I remain open to Kendall or Wayne or anyone to give a reasonable explanation for Brian's statement here.

As for Saxton violating his NDA, I would kindly direct your attention to JMS' reasonable thoughts on the matter. At worst Curtis Saxton could just claim everyone on the list as necessary consultants, and the matter would be probably be dropped

However, as JMS says, it would be nice if we knew the particulars of Saxton's NDA here, instead of it just being tossed around to try and intimidate people.

"It is possible that we undercalculated this for the ICS"

There aren't many interpretation you can make out of that. I want to remain open to the idea that it's a poor wording, but of course, than's giving a hand in possibly covering tracks, because in all honesty, there's nothing more simple, unless incredible spin, than this sentence, and get it as "we could have gotten the ICS figures even higher".

Either it means that Saxton used calcs from Brian and co, without telling them, and after they realized what he did, they thought they could have led him into higher figures, by providing different calcs. But then it would mean that Saxton didn't rely on his own calcs. That could be possible, but I'd picture him using more of his own stuff.

Or the pro-conspiracy interpretation: it means that Saxton and coworked hand in hand to get as many figures as possible ready for the ICS, from limited amounts of movie data.

Anyway, it is strange.

What's the date of these posts?

More, what these calcs were based of initially? By the time Saxton wrote the ICS, he didn't have access to a finished pursuit sequence I suppose. At best, a roughly rendered version - which could be enough from the moment you could guess the size of the asteroids, and think of guess happens to them.
Artworks, quite sure.
Textual descriptions, sure as well. Which is quite enough to guess the extent of the firepower.

Then, after the film's out, they realize that they may have underestimated the size of the fighter/Slave-I, and incidentally the asteroids.

It will remain a very weird wording that would make anyone very suspicious. Maybe a slip, possibly like Wong's "vow of secrecy".

Of course, if they officially were consultants, then it'd be fixed.
There are names in the credits... some of these people were on the brink of not particpating to Star Wars related discussions anymore (Andrew Tse for example), so it's possible that Saxton merely picked stuff from his site, which was already acknowledged as being provided by some of the names put in the credits.

[Cock_Knocker]

Hey, didn't I deal with this "Warsie Conspiracy List" before, officially? Why, yes I did.

Anyway, we're giving you guys far too much attention than you deserve, again. I'll leave you in your tinfoil hat state of constant obscurity.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I appreciate the fact that certain individuals have not taken the bait offered by Cock_Knocker in suggesting repeatedly that they wear tin foil hats.

I would be even happier, however, if Cock_Knocker stopped baiting them altogether.

[Cpl Kendall]

Ok, I can try to say it otherwise.

The AotC ICS is supposed to show and explain vessels which could be seen in the movie.

It shows the ACCLAMATOR and says that it has 12 heavy guns with 200 gigatons per shot.

Actually those are medium turbolasers.

But we have not only seen not one single shot from an ACCLAMATOR in the movie, we couldn't even see any heavy guns.

This oddity was already adressed in the thread ACCLAMATOR - weapons.

This example shows that the AotC ICS is not reliable because it isn't based on the movie - as it is supposed to do - but on other sources.

As I recall, all of the shots in AOTC of the Acclamator class were of either such an angle so as to not show the weapons emplacements or showed the vessel from far enough away that it really didn't make showing any details possible. I have AOTC on DVD but to be honest I don't care enough to go back through and watch the parts again nor do I know how to take screenshots off my DVD drive.

[GStone]

If you have PowerDVD, there's a 'snapshot' function that lets you take images of the film. I've always used it when it was paused. If it was playing, you'd take your chance on getting which frame you want, assuming it works in play mode. Also, hitting 'print screen' on the keyboard and then, pasting it into a drawing program, like paint, works. I assume it would work for many other drawing programs. I finally got a laptop about a year ago that'd let me use print screen for images with my autocad '02, so I could copy the images and use them in paint.

[Mike DiCenso]

Wayne Poe wrote:

Hey, didn't I deal with this "Warsie Conspiracy List" before, officially? Why, yes I did.

Hey Wayne, instead of hiding behind your context snipping drivel of a Hate Page, why not just allow people to see the contents of the emails and let them come to their own conclusions?

Instead you resort to your tired old triade of hate and venom-based ad hominem and strawmen attacks to deflect the issue.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Cpl Kendall wrote:

As I recall, all of the shots in AOTC of the Acclamator class were of either such an angle so as to not show the weapons emplacements or showed the vessel from far enough away that it really didn't make showing any details possible. I have AOTC on DVD but to be honest I don't care enough to go back through and watch the parts again nor do I know how to take screenshots off my DVD drive.

Not a requirement when the thread WILGA linked to provided excellent high resolution images like this one:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... rs-ST2.jpg

Not a single gun, heavy or otherwise visible, though that in and of itself does not necessarily preclude their existance as we've seen that many kinds of TL emplacements on VSDs, ISDs, and the Death Stars are often tucked away in alcove-like spaces.
-Mike

[Cpl Kendall]

Not a requirement when the thread WILGA linked to provided excellent high resolution images like this one:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... rs-ST2.jpg

Not a single gun, heavy or otherwise visible, though that in and of itself does not necessarily preclude their existance as we've seen that many kinds of TL emplacements on VSDs, ISDs, and the Death Stars are often tucked away in alcove-like spaces.
-Mike

Most of those images don't provide enough detail to make out any details where the turrets are supposed to be. I'm not really concerned. Either they are there and the detail on the shots in the film isn't sufficient to resolve them, they do appear tiny in the ICS anyway. Or they aren't installed on these particular ships as a result of them being rushed to the Republic Fleet. They may still have the PD laser canons installed, which would be to tiny to see anyways. I'm not about to lose any sleep over this.

[Cock_Knocker]

Hey Wayne, instead of hiding behind your context snipping drivel of a Hate Page, why not just allow people to see the contents of the emails and let them come to their own conclusions?

You're kidding, right?

I should release the full contents of my private emails, from which snippets were stolen from my website?

You have a strange sense of priorities, pal.

BTW, baiting attempt ignored...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Not a requirement when the thread WILGA linked to provided excellent high resolution images like this one:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... rs-ST2.jpg

Not a single gun, heavy or otherwise visible, though that in and of itself does not necessarily preclude their existance as we've seen that many kinds of TL emplacements on VSDs, ISDs, and the Death Stars are often tucked away in alcove-like spaces.
-Mike

Most of those images don't provide enough detail to make out any details where the turrets are supposed to be. I'm not really concerned. Either they are there and the detail on the shots in the film isn't sufficient to resolve them, they do appear tiny in the ICS anyway. Or they aren't installed on these particular ships as a result of them being rushed to the Republic Fleet. They may still have the PD laser canons installed, which would be to tiny to see anyways. I'm not about to lose any sleep over this.

Of course, a scan of the ICS page in question would probably settle the question...

No, I didn't ask for a scan.

[Trinoya]

I believe that Wayne here has a right to keep his emails private as well. It was an honest mistake when it happened the first time around. Seeing those emails didn't really change my view anyway, the dedications did, so I wasn't too shocked when I read those.

However, I can also see why many debaters would like to see them. It would put some stuff to rest, or possibly raise more questions.


That said, we have no right to those emails one way or another, for any use, and we should be able to derive the credibility of the ICS with out them, basing it purely on the work presented, regardless of the intent behind it.

[Who is like God arbour]

We may have no right to ask for the e-mails.

But it is a fact that the piece we have seen already - in conjunction with the dedications - are compromising the objectiveness with which the ICS should have been written.

It is not our task anymore to prove that the ICS was written with the objectivness whith which it schould have done.

It is not our task to prove that Mr. Saxton has consulted the aforementioned persons and that that has biased his writtings.

• • • Besides that we couldn't do it because that is a fact that lies only in the sphere of influence of Mr. Saxton and the aforementioned persons.
      Allone that would usually result in an alleviation of the burden of proof.
      In conjunction with the aforementioned indications it could already result in a reversal of the burden of proof.
      In a German court, he would be bound to bring forward the e-mails if he can't accredit that he hasn't have them anymore

If Wayne wants to restore the reputation of the ICS, he would have to show that by bringing forward these e-mails.

If he doesn't do it we have already enough reasons to doubt the reputation of the ICS - and he know that it is so.

[Cock_Knocker]

If Wayne wants to restore the reputation of the ICS,

I really hate to break it to you, but outside of this little Scooby shack, the ICS has no problem with its reputation.

[Jedi Master Spock]

If Wayne wants to restore the reputation of the ICS,

I really hate to break it to you, but outside of this little Scooby shack, the ICS has no problem with its reputation.

Actually... that problem does come up a lot. On SB.com, on SW.com, on Wookieepedia, on TFN, on Wikipedia - plenty of people have expressed doubt about the ICS and all its related materials. They are, of course, usually met by those expressing their loud support of all things ICS; conflict ensues, and the dispute is even worth writing articles about.

[Cpl Kendall]

Isn't Pablo Hidalgo noted as some what of a half wit and a minimialist to boot?