Starfleet Jedi

the nids invacde star trek! three hive fleets attack the galaxy! firstly with hive fleet behemoth attacking earth in the same fashion as it attacks the ultramarines homeworld. suspicious attacks are discovered several months prior to the attack and then they discover the nids are coming for earth!


Then instead of the dominion the Yuuzahn Vong are in place. There is a similar build up of tension and the vong do their usual secret infiltration and agitation instead of the changelings. do the alpha quadrant races produce collaberators like in sw? can they win a war ? assuming that the Vong have the same rate of reinforcements a bit like the dominion had ever growing rate of reinforcements but obviously not going to immediately ally with the cardassians due to the anti machiine relgions.

not sure if a world ship could fit through the worldhole though LOL

i was going to do some smaller scales stuff but it might clog up a thread so ill make another.

LOL I come back a year later and nobody posted.

was it that clear cut what would happen ?

LOL

Well, the first two scenarios have been doen to death in other threads, so that may be why no one answered.

As for the third option, perhaps for once the Borg don't seem so tough when compared to Tyranids, so people knew it would be a curbstomp... :)

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the first two scenarios have been doen to death in other threads, so that may be why no one answered.

As for the third option, perhaps for once the Borg don't seem so tough when compared to Tyranids, so people knew it would be a curbstomp... :)

While it obviously depends on which weapon calcs you use for both sides, neither are particular consistent in how powerful their ship weapons are, I would rate the Borg cube as comparable but out gunned to 40k. A cube is apparently quite durable, in Best of both worlds (TNG) Shelby mentions a cube could function with 70% missing, which in part makes up for it's more modest weapons and defenses. Territory wise they hold a respectable, if modest, swatch of territory of several thousand worlds with millions of ships through how many out of that number are spheres or tactical cubes is unknown. their saving grace however is their FTL which should be the fastest in that universe save for possible the Necrons. They are capable of crossing the milky way galaxy from one end to the other in mere minutes leading to attacks and reinforcements the IOM could only dream of imitating.

So I guess being a curbstomp wasn't obvious to me :-)

Dagons Child wrote:Starwars

Instead of the Yuuzhan vong invasion the borg begin incursions into the SW galaxy from the same direction with their full resources

You didn't qualify in your OP if this is the ICS SW, or the actualy canon SW of the movies and TCW. If the latter, the Borg eat the SW galaxy alive.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Dagons Child wrote:Starwars

Instead of the Yuuzhan vong invasion the borg begin incursions into the SW galaxy from the same direction with their full resources

You didn't qualify in your OP if this is the ICS SW, or the actualy canon SW of the movies and TCW. If the latter, the Borg eat the SW galaxy alive.
-Mike

Actually the weaker version of Star Wars might actually have the advantage. The Borg,unless driven by the OP, will likely invade and claim a corner of the SW galaxy and slow spread out from there over a period of centuries much as they are doing in the Trek galaxy. If however the various SW factions are an actual threat they are likely to get the Borg into an all out war and if I recall correctly the galaxy in the Vong era was a chaotic mess unlikely to unify fast enough to stop the Borg if they go all out.

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the first two scenarios have been doen to death in other threads, so that may be why no one answered.

As for the third option, perhaps for once the Borg don't seem so tough when compared to Tyranids, so people knew it would be a curbstomp... :)

so i see! i'll alter my first post then

sonofccn wrote:

Praeothmin wrote:Well, the first two scenarios have been doen to death in other threads, so that may be why no one answered.

As for the third option, perhaps for once the Borg don't seem so tough when compared to Tyranids, so people knew it would be a curbstomp... :)

While it obviously depends on which weapon calcs you use for both sides, neither are particular consistent in how powerful their ship weapons are, I would rate the Borg cube as comparable but out gunned to 40k. A cube is apparently quite durable, in Best of both worlds (TNG) Shelby mentions a cube could function with 70% missing, which in part makes up for it's more modest weapons and defenses. Territory wise they hold a respectable, if modest, swatch of territory of several thousand worlds with millions of ships through how many out of that number are spheres or tactical cubes is unknown. their saving grace however is their FTL which should be the fastest in that universe save for possible the Necrons. They are capable of crossing the milky way galaxy from one end to the other in mere minutes leading to attacks and reinforcements the IOM could only dream of imitating.

So I guess being a curbstomp wasn't obvious to me :-)

well first what weapon calcs are you using for warhammer and the borg

as far as the borgs speed goes i assumed that when invading they would have to proceed fairly slowly since their fastest speeds are a result of their big transwarp network system.

i think what shelby means is that a borg cube has some sort of distributed control system so it can use its remaining systems not that it has got all tis guns and shields and engines when 70% damaged. Anyway i will remove some of the redundant scenarios.

Dagons Child wrote:well first what weapon calcs are you using for warhammer and the borg

For the Borg I was using the good old fashioned 100 megaton photon torpedo and the fact that a single Borg cube could take on 40 Federation vessels with minimal if any damage. Assuming each vessel only fired on average 25 torpedoes apiece (the Enterprise-A had 97 total while the Enterprise-D had IIRC 250), ignoring phaser fire for simplicity and low endness, should still show a cube taking 100 gigatons and barely having it's paint scratched. Yes I realize this is of course pure speculation but I think I am being fairly low end in my thinking and estimations.

For 40K the generally accepted 610 gigaton torpedo quote which is a medium weapon IIRC from previous debates on the subject with lower weapons, and therefore more commonly fired, being thriple digit megaton and the nova cannon, which is an upper level weapon, being double digit TT.

I am not saying these are correct or the only figures just the ones I lean towards for no real reason beyond thinking the feel right for the universe. JMS has done an excellent deconstruction on firepower myths and problems concerning 40k andI'd recommend if you haven't read it to do so.

as far as the borgs speed goes i assumed that when invading they would have to proceed fairly slowly since their fastest speeds are a result of their big transwarp network system.

Their fastest speeds yes but any borg cube has transwarp coils which blaze their own trail and unless I'm mistaken can more or less cross the galaxy in the minutes to very low hour mark. The transwarp network, not seen until the series ending episode I believe, allowed travel to Earth in low minutes-high seconds unless I'm remembering wrong. In 40k travel time, baring the occasional time jump either forward or backwards, it takes weeks or months to travel anything but local distances. The borg could launch an all out assault on Terra from the fringe of the IOM before a local sector fleet could be scrounged up to fight the new Xenos.

think what shelby means is that a borg cube has some sort of distributed control system so it can use its remaining systems not that it has got all tis guns and shields and engines when 70% damaged.

Shelby, BOBW part I wrote:Projections suggest a Borg ship
like this one could continue to
function effectively even if
seventy-eight percent of it was
inoperable.

I am not saying that a 25% borg cube is just as strong as a 100% borg cube or even that the projection is fully accurate, but if you blow the borg cube into two sections, both sections can do everything the single cube could do more or less and if left alone would both repair back to normal. Cubes are durable let's just say that.

The borg could launch an all out assault on Terra from the fringe of the IOM before a local sector fleet could be scrounged up to fight the new Xenos.

well good luck with that one

Then instead of the dominion the Yuuzahn Vong are in place....

wait, this is a seperate one or still connected with the first part?

sonofccn wrote:

Dagons Child wrote:well first what weapon calcs are you using for warhammer and the borg

For the Borg I was using the good old fashioned 100 megaton photon torpedo and the fact that a single Borg cube could take on 40 Federation vessels with minimal if any damage. Assuming each vessel only fired on average 25 torpedoes apiece (the Enterprise-A had 97 total while the Enterprise-D had IIRC 250), ignoring phaser fire for simplicity and low endness, should still show a cube taking 100 gigatons and barely having it's paint scratched. Yes I realize this is of course pure speculation but I think I am being fairly low end in my thinking and estimations.

i think i get what you are saying but i dont think youve come to the right idea. Unless each ship fired all its torpedos at once then you have a cube taking a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time the cube doesn't take 100 gigatons it takes lots of megaton hits spread out.

and if one imperial torpedo is 600 gigatons and they fire them in bunchs then its bad for a borg ship eldar torps are even worse they are stealthed! i also don't know about the 100 megatons for a trek ship that seems a lot!

[/quote] I am not saying that a 25% borg cube is just as strong as a 100% borg cube or even that the projection is fully accurate, but if you blow the borg cube into two sections, both sections can do everything the single cube could do more or less and if left alone would both repair back to normal. Cubes are durable let's just say that.[/quote]

i don't think that works either because unless you used a really thin beam to cut the ship in half a lot of stuff would get damaged when it was blown in half and if borg power systems and engines and shileds are all distributed then each section wouldnt' be able to make up for their missing bits

Their fastest speeds yes but any borg cube has transwarp coils which blaze their own trail and

that doesnt sound right the built a transwarp network for a reason it makes more sense that a transworp coil just lets you use the superfast conduit otherwise what is the point of having something liket hat ?


Enosh I meant the new scenarios to be seperate as people said the others had been done so its tyrandis versus the federation and Vong versus the alpha quadrent instead of the borg stuff.

Enosh wrote:

The borg could launch an all out assault on Terra from the fringe of the IOM before a local sector fleet could be scrounged up to fight the new Xenos.

well good luck with that one

I made no statment to the result of the attack, merely the borg have the speed to do it.

Dagons Child wrote:
as far as the borgs speed goes i assumed that when invading they would have to proceed fairly slowly since their fastest speeds are a result of their big transwarp network system.

Even without the transwarp hubs, the individual Borg ships were capable of some very impressive speeds using their internalized transwarp coil drives. In "Dark Frontier", The Delta Flyer and later Voyager traverse over tens of thousands of light years in a matter of days at most. The hubs only seem to be used for journeys of minutes over tens of thousands of light years.
-Mike

Dagons child wrote:i think i get what you are saying but i dont think youve come to the right idea. Unless each ship fired all its torpedos at once then you have a cube taking a certain amount of damage over a certain amount of time the cube doesn't take 100 gigatons it takes lots of megaton hits spread out.

True the firepower would be spread and so it is not the same as taking a hundred gigatons at once but it does give a, admittedly very rough, ball park figure of what a borg can take without damage which coupled with my safty smudges of outright ignoring phasers, who over the course of any extended battle add up, and assuming that the federation vessels, who typically expend thier entire payload against "hard" targets in mere minutes, fired roughly a quarter of a late 23rd century cruiser stockpile.

and if one imperial torpedo is 600 gigatons and they fire them in bunchs then its bad for a borg ship eldar torps are even worse they are stealthed! i also don't know about the 100 megatons for a trek ship that seems a lot!

1. I did say the Borg were outgunned however 40k torpedoes will likely not be much of a threat. Unless in the fluff they are radicaly differnt they can't alter headings once fired, lacking shielding or any noticable defense and should be easy prey for any Trek race much less the Borg to either evade or destroy.

2.How stealth is stealth? We talking stealth plane or cloaking device?

3.Rise {Voyager} indicates a nickel-iron asteriod could be vaporised by a mere photon torpedothis page scales it at a lenght of 390 meters and a width of 185. High double digit MT to low low thriple digit isn't unjustified.

Skin of evil (TNG) also suggest low to medium thriple digits scaled from the size of the explosion.

Balance of Terror (TOS) shows a Romulan ship capable of reducing a mile diameter asteriod to dust in 1-2 shots( the first shot was at least stopped in part by the outpost buried within deflector system) while a super weapon of the time it is logical the Romulans would have been harder to contain in the 24th century if federation technology hadn't advanced to compensate to some extent.

Then there are The Die is Caste (DS9) which if assuming what we see are clouds being formed is double digit gigatons to if we take the dialoge seriously to ICS levels. Then Pegasus (TNG) which depending on scaling issues can reach into the gigatons. The scaling is of course the matter of much dispute by all parties. In a similar vien to TDIC Broken link(DS9) suggests the defient could turn the world the Founders were on [ for real this time :-) ] to a burnt cinder.

That is a small round up of fire power incidents so no 100 megatons isn't high.

I don't think that works either because unless you used a really thin beam to cut the ship in half a lot of stuff would get damaged when it was blown in half and if borg power systems and engines and shileds are all distributed then each section wouldnt' be able to make up for their missing bits

I was simply trying to demostrate thier ability not comenting on the frequency of being perfectly sliced in half. It is an expert statment so we can't disregard it and from what we know of the Borg thier systems are redudent and dispersed throughout thier ship coupled with thier technology adaptable ability. In Regenerations (ENT) a single Borg drone displayed the ability to radicaly alter a bulkhead in a matter of moments. If the remaing quarter section lacked a paticular system the Borg drones no doubt could build the item in short order from whatever scrap was lying around.

that doesnt sound right the built a transwarp network for a reason it makes more sense that a transworp coil just lets you use the superfast conduit otherwise what is the point of having something liket hat ?

The voyager crew boarded a borg cube and stole a transwarp coil, I don't remember the episode through it might have been Dark Frontier but I can't swear to it, and used it but didn't find the grande galaxy transwarp network until end game IIRC. The only reason I can think of is sheer speed. A transwarp coil is fast, the network hub is delta quandrant to Earth in thirty seconds fast. Personally I think it's overkill consider the resource investment but go figure the Borg.

1. I did say the Borg were outgunned however 40k torpedoes will likely not be much of a threat. Unless in the fluff they are radicaly differnt they can't alter headings once fired, lacking shielding or any noticable defense and should be easy prey for any Trek race much less the Borg to either evade or destroy.

torpedos are guided (well atleast some of them), there are also other variants

and torpedos are fired in voleys (aka more than 40k point defence guns can destroy), I don't see why something hitting ships that fight at 0.75c, won't hit a borg cube, that never realy demostrated any significant evasive manouvers beyond "run into the enemy at a straight line"

atleast not in any of the episodes I have seen, feel free to corect me

I think the borg, given the size of their ships, decided that they would go in and let their durability and self-repair of their ships worry about damage. It's like when you have comic characters with super fast regenerations, the writers just have the character not worry about finese and strategy and just treat him as an unstoppable machine that can take anything.