Starfleet Jedi

Right, since no one feels my last thread was worty. Here's another one. And I will keep spamming threads until I get a reaction, dammit! >:(

In any case, it's a time before the second Cylon War breaks out in nBSG, and a small colonial fleet is out on routine patrol (20x Galactica type Battlestars and 10x Pegasus type Battlestars). During a jump, all the vessels suffer critical damage to the FTL drives and are suddenly droped out in the Firefly system. They can no longer go to FTL, so they're esentially stuck there now. For reasons unknown, they decide they need to bring down the Alliance, and thus declare war on it.

Can a small (relatively speaking) nBSG fleet rally the oppressed and beat the Alliance?

All with full fighter complients and weapons loadouts.

I only watched a couple nBSG, but I would assume that they are heading towards the inner planets and not out towards reaper territorty, right?

We didn't see that much for Alliance ships, but if they can't beat them, it'd be a hell of a fight.

GStone wrote:I only watched a couple nBSG, but I would assume that they are heading towards the inner planets and not out towards reaper territorty, right?

Yes, they probably wouldn't want to tangle with the Reavers, as it would be much like starting a war on two fronts. Wether the Reavers will take advantage of the fighting though...

We didn't see that much for Alliance ships, but if they can't beat them, it'd be a hell of a fight.

Ooh, that reminds me, I forgot to mention that the RPG is to be considered canon for this debate. So that should make things much more quantifiable.

20 Galactica and 10 Pegasus?
What has the alliance ever do to you?
From all I've seen in the two shows, the nBSG's fleet is much better prepared for a full-scale war, with better weapons and armor, plus all the Frakking fighters they have.

This is one-sided, even if the Reavers were to take the Alliance's side... :)

You do know that the Alliance only comprised one Solar system, right?

Oh, and don't worry about the lack of interest, by SW vs UNSC thread wasn't very successful either... :)

Praeothmin wrote:...with better weapons and armor, plus all the Frakking fighters they have.

Their weaponry seems fairly similar, simple kinetic-kill weapons and nukes. Fighters I'm not so sure about, gunships seems to be the smallest type of ship the Alliance uses, but they're around 25m (IIRC) long so they're not exactly fighter sized either.

You do know that the Alliance only comprised one Solar system, right?

Aye, that's why I put a limit on the nBSG forces and removed their FTL via ploth4x.

L33telboi wrote:Their weaponry seems fairly similar, simple kinetic-kill weapons and nukes. Fighters I'm not so sure about, gunships seems to be the smallest type of ship the Alliance uses, but they're around 25m (IIRC) long so they're not exactly fighter sized either.

They still don't seem to have anywhere near the same amount of armor then on the nBSG ships...
I'd like to see one alliance ship resist a missile like the Galactica did, when they get decimated by the Reavers' grappling hooks and Ballista like weapons...

Aye, that's why I put a limit on the nBSG forces and removed their FTL via ploth4x.

Which is still too much of a curbstomp IMO.

l33telboi wrote:Their weaponry seems fairly similar, simple kinetic-kill weapons and nukes. Fighters I'm not so sure about, gunships seems to be the smallest type of ship the Alliance uses, but they're around 25m (IIRC) long so they're not exactly fighter sized either.

Well, remember the episode where Kat and HotDog blew up asteroids with their conventional missiles?

From the look of it, one missile would rip apart a 30-40 meters wide and very solid piece of rock, making the inside glow. If I remember correctly, the sheer lack of dust would at least severely dispute the idea of rubble piles, and potentially argue for nickel-iron targets.

I don't know much about Firefly, but there was that final battle in Serenity... well... spitting range and weapons not looking that impressive at all from what I recall.

I think it's quite unfair.

Hey, what about Space Above and Beyond? Feel like making one?

Ah, I knew I had two pics. Unfortunately, I forgot to make one that would be usable to gauge the size of the asteroid, but it did look big:

Praeothmin wrote:They still don't seem to have anywhere near the same amount of armor then on the nBSG ships...

Well, the exact amount of armor I'm unsure of. But nukes can take out Battlestars, and according to the RPG, alliance warships mount 'multi-ton battleship killers'. That's a several ton missile warhead that can be mounted with a nuclear goodness, if we assume a similar yield/weight ratio as modern day weapons, it'd yield 4.4 megatons, assuming just a 2 ton warhead.

I'd like to see one alliance ship resist a missile like the Galactica did, when they get decimated by the Reavers' grappling hooks and Ballista like weapons...

They are a lot smaller and do seem a lot more fragile, I'll admit that, but then again, I can't really recall any specifics either. Only thing that comes to mind when talking about hull strength is the Reaver ship crashing into the patrol ship.

Besides, it's not like Bastestars use nukes all that often, for the most part, they use their projectile weaponry. Loading nukes looks to be quite time-consuming, actually.

I don't know much about Firefly, but there was that final battle in Serenity... well... spitting range and weapons not looking that impressive at all from what I recall.

Spitting range perhaps. But against the colonial fleet that's not going to be much of an issue. As the Alliance projectile weaponry has a higher velocity then those used by the Colonial fleet. And their ships are generally smaller and faster. Besides, there was a good reason why the battle took place at spitting distance in the movie.

Weapons range and accuracy seems to be on the Alliance side.

As for impressive, weapons hitting unquantifiable targets are rarely impressive.

As for the asteroid blasting, there's something a bit similar in Firefly, a gunship chases Serenity and launches a missile, it ends up taking out good chunk of a mountain. I tried to upload the scene to photobucket so you can check, but apparently that was a no go. The scene can be found in the "the message", if you have access to the episodes.

The opening of firefly proves the alliance has the fire power to dish it out any day of the week. The alliance might have only one solar system, but they have HUNDREDS of colonies, battle star has 12. Only 12. Twelve habitable planets. JW described firefly as a universe with tons of planets and hundreds of moons within spitting distance of one another.

All in all, with out their FTL drives, the battle stars are going to find themselves a bit out matched here. Hit and run is out of the question entirely as the fastest acceleration we've seen in the series wasn't really that fast (Pegasus on her suicide run).

Now then, the battle stars will inflict heavy losses, of that there is no doubt. A battle star is worth every dollar spent... but they simply do not have the infrastructure required to survive. They have very limited resources and no way to replace lost pilots or crew, and the alliance can move A LOT faster now that FTL is out of the picture.

All in all, you're looking at the alliance BLASTING the battle stars from as far away as possible... and considering they need to have a heavy enough presence to maintain the peace in the core, I'm certain they have the fleets to do it.

Last and final factor... the alliance has technology at least on par with most of battle star. Nuclear weapons will be used, and they will be used often... and the alliance won't have to worry about running out any day soon. Shadow was, if I recall correctly, scorched and burned with its atmosphere removed. Nothing lives on shadow, nothing can. So we know it is within their power to obliterate an entire surface of a planet to the point it is uninhabitable.

Your basically taking 30 ships and saying, "go defeat this entire nation." It's just not going to happen. They don't have the man power, the fire power, or the logistics to take over even a moon... And I really doubt the brown coats (who were all about independence for every world) would like to be united under an alliance with a different name...

Now, add in FTL and a renewable fuel source and maybe you have a fight on your hands... maybe...

Ok, so yesterday I tried uploading a video to photobucket, but it didn't seem to work. But today when I checked my account, there it was. Odd, maybe they have to go through the video or something before they can allow it?

In any case, here it is.

Trinoya wrote:The alliance might have only one solar system, but they have HUNDREDS of colonies, battle star has 12.

Where did you get that info?
I don't remember that from the show or the movie...

Nuclear weapons will be used, and they will be used often... and the alliance won't have to worry about running out any day soon.

While the nBSG will have supplying problems, nothing will keep them from stealing supplies from the Alliance.
And the armor on the nBSG ships seems sturdier then any Alliance ships.
Plus the nBSG crews have a lot of experience hitting fast moving targets, their suppressive firing is decidedly lethal.
The fleet in Serenity didn't impress me either by their strategies or their numbers.

I still don't see a victory for the Alliance here...

List of colonies

* Ariel
* Bellerophon
* Hera
* Higgins' Moon
* Jiangyin
* Osiris
* Persephone
* St. Albans i
* Whitefall
* Beaumonde
* Haven
* Miranda
* Athens
* Bernadette
* Boros
* Dyton
* Greenleaf
* Heinlein
* Londinium
* Newhall
* New Melbourne
* Parth
* Santo
* Sihnon,
* Verbena
* Ares
* Beylix
* Ezra
* Ita
* Muir
* Regina
* Triumph
* Aberdeen
* Angel
* Constance
* Deadwood
* Harvest
* Highgate
* Kerry
* Liann Jiun
* Paquin
* Salisbury
* Shadow
* Silverhold
* Three Hills
* Whittier
46 total, and this isn't counting those that were unnamed.


And as far as supplies go, the fuel used by BSG ships is sand like, we do not know the fuel used by firefly, but presumably it is not the same sand like material. In addition to this, not every back water moon has nuclear war heads, and though I'm sure you can find compatable amunition, I doubt you will find it in large quantities.

And again, the speed of the battle stars pretty much ends this fight before it began. NO FTL means they are going NO WHERE fast. Even firefly verse, which is abnormally close together in terms of planets, still has demonstrated faster acceleration.

Firefly has: Numbers, equipment and speed.

BSG has: Armor, dependability, and resource conversion abilities.


EDIT: A final note: You're also talking about 114500 people taking on an entire civilization... A civilization who have fire power abilities comparable and at least the abilities of Earth in terms of armor, and assuredly slightly better than modern earth.

Well, I had no idea about the number of colonies.
With so many colonies, I guess the fleet of the Alliance will probably be bigger then that of the nBSG.

Re-evaluation:
Alliance wins, but suffers enormous casualties...

Trinoya wrote:And as far as supplies go, the fuel used by BSG ships is sand like, we do not know the fuel used by firefly, but presumably it is not the same sand like material.

Firefly vessels have bog standard fusion reactors. Ok, not exactly bog standard, seeing as how they use artificial gravity to contain the fusion reaction, but you get the idea. So for fuel, they use hydrogen, the RPG is even kind enough to give us specifics on fuel consumption and how big a fuel reserve vessels have.

A Firefly-class vessel with a mass around 2,400 tons, would have a total hydrogen storage capacity of 625 tons. If i'm not mistaken, and I could very well be, that would mean that they have, at most, 6e20 joules of potential energy, or an energy equivalent of 143 gigatons of TNT, for those who like their figures expressed that way.

Now a true Alliance warship, which masses between 100,000 and 1,000,000 tons, would have a total fuel capacity of 62,500 tons. This means a total energy potential of 6.25e22 joules, or an equivalent of 14.9 teratons of TNT.

Of course, what's interesting about nBSG fuel (Tylium?), is that they in one episode give a figure or something from where you could derive the energy per mass the substance could yield, and it turned out you could get more energy out of it then you could out of hydrogen with normal fusion. Of course, this is something I saw another poster say a long time ago, and I don't really know what episode was in question, so I can't be sure.

Suffice to say, that seeing as how Tylium can be used in explosives, and the ships seem to fire explosive shells, even their bog-standard could pack quite a serious punch. Of course, this begs the question, why do they use nukes at all?

And again, the speed of the battle stars pretty much ends this fight before it began. NO FTL means they are going NO WHERE fast. Even firefly verse, which is abnormally close together in terms of planets, still has demonstrated faster acceleration.

They actually have quite dandy acceleration, in the form of their pulse drives. Basically what they do is mass-lighten the ship and then set off a huge fusion explosion behind them to boost them on their way. Of course, you can only use those in very specific circumstances. You can't for instance use it where it's crowded, since you might run into something, and it also bruns a lot of fuel. But the acceleration of those drives is around 16,000 km in a few seconds.