Starfleet Jedi

I was browsing through Spacebattles when I saw an interesting thread.

Here's the (somewhat modified) setting...

Scenario 1: UNSC vs OT Imperials, Hoth plains;

For Halo's side:
-UNSC forces and vehicules only;
-Only 1 Spartan II, Master Chief;
-Use Games and Novels as Canon.

For SW's side:
-Imperial Army forces and Vehicules only;
-Only 1 Sith; Darth Vader;
-Novels and Movies as Canon.

Who wins, and why?

Scenario 2: Same as one for Haloverse, but replace Imperial Army with Republic Army (Clone Wars), at Muhinilist;

For Halo's side:
-UNSC forces and vehicules only;
-Only 1 Spartan II, Master Chief;
-Use Games and Novels as Canon.

For SW's side:
-Republic Army forces and Vehicules only;
-Only 1 Jedi; Obi-Wan Kenobi;
-Novels and Movies as Canon.

Who wins, and why?

The Jedi or Sith gives an advantage to both Republic and Empire side, and the blaster weaponry is quite a bit more potent than the UNSC's favourite ballistic weapons; I'm going to hedge my bets on an overall victory for Star Wars.

Narsil wrote:The Jedi or Sith gives an advantage to both Republic and Empire side, and the blaster weaponry is quite a bit more potent than the UNSC's favourite ballistic weapons; I'm going to hedge my bets on an overall victory for Star Wars.

If there were many Jedi or Sith, I would agree, but considering what I've read in the novels, and what I see in the games, 1 Spartan more then equals 1 Jedi.
Obi-Wan Kenobi had trouble vs Jango, a man Master Chief would have subdued quite easily, judging by what the Novel version of MC can do.
MC is used to fighting enemies with energy swords, plasma weapons, that can jump high, even enemies that cloak.
As for the Troops, UNSC troops are also used to fighting enemies using energy weapons as powerful as most of the SW weapons.

Here's my opinion on the matter:

Scenario 1:
Troop engagement:
Although the Stormtroopers have armor, it will offer only limited protection against UNSC weapons (vs ricochets, shrapnel at a certain distance), especially since we see that most Covenant troops also have armor, some armor even protecting the Elites againts a direct Sniper round to the body.
The UNSC Marines actually use tactics, cover fire when advancing, and taking cover when appropriate.
The UNSC Marines win this one.

Vehicule engagement:
I had no doubt that a vehicule (AT-ST) gets crushed by two logs will stand up to more then 1 single shot from the main UNSC Tank (Scorpion I believe).
And since the Tank is able to withstand many shots from Banshees, or Ghosts' plasma weapons (which in game make as big explosions as the AT-ST's main weapons) , I also highly doubt that the AT-ST will last long against the Scorpion.
I also think that the .50 Cal machine gun on the Groundhog will shred an AT-ST to shreds.
The Groundhog also moves alot faster then any of the vehicules we saw on hot, giving the UNSC a speed and maneuverability advantage.
The only problem comes from the AT-AT. It's armor seems very strong, and unless a Scorpion gunner can target its neck (the apparent weak point), this vehicule will play havok with the UNCS troops.

Verdict: Because of the AT-AT, the SW troops win this one, but it will be an extremelly costly victory for them.

Scenario 2:
Ground Troops:
The Clone Army displays more ability then the Stormtroopers ever had, and even though their main tactic is still advance and shoot in most engagements, we've seen them take cover on occasion, and use cover fire, etc... Their Armor also seems more resistent then ST's, and their weapons more powerful.
Advantage goes to the Clone troopers, but not by much...

Vehicules:
A bigger variety, more maneuverable vehicules, although they don't look tougher then their UNCS counterparts, the Clone vehicules sporting the same firepower as the Scorpion as faster and more agile (Laats, the wheeled tank, AT-TE, Sphaats will give great support vs air vehicules, etc...).
Expect some heavy losses on both sides, but once more the Clone army prevails.

Verdict: Same ending for the Clone Troopers as we saw on Muhinilist, but with heavier losses due to fighting competent enemies... :)

Praeothmin wrote:Scenario 1: UNSC vs OT Imperials, Hoth plains;

For Halo's side:
-UNSC forces and vehicules only;
-Only 1 Spartan II, Master Chief;
-Use Games and Novels as Canon.

For SW's side:
-Imperial Army forces and Vehicules only;
-Only 1 Sith; Darth Vader;
-Novels and Movies as Canon.

Who wins, and why?

Stormtrooper armour is supposed to do well against bullets and such, but UNSC armour is designed with energy weapons in mind, so may be equal here, depending on the arms issued to both sides the infantry weapons could go either way, if the troopers have only E-11s then my money is on the marines, but it's likely they would have heavy repeaters and the like, so leaning more towards the stormtroopers here.

Darth Vader is unarguably more dangerous than the chief (unless he brought a nuclear "surprise") and would slaughter MC in close combat (say if MC is sent to assasinate the enemy commander), on a battlefield however the difference is largely moot, both will inspire their side, both are competant in command.

The vehicles swing it for the Empire. It takes multiple scorpions to take down a scarab (basicly an ATAT but powered down) if ANY ATAT's or ATTE's are present they will dominate the battlefield
similarly LAAT's will beat hornets, as the hornet has to be one of the most poorly thought out air vehicles in history.

Scenario 2: Same as one for Haloverse, but replace Imperial Army with Republic Army (Clone Wars), at Muhinilist;

For Halo's side:
-UNSC forces and vehicules only;
-Only 1 Spartan II, Master Chief;
-Use Games and Novels as Canon.

For SW's side:
-Republic Army forces and Vehicules only;
-Only 1 Jedi; Obi-Wan Kenobi;
-Novels and Movies as Canon.

Who wins, and why?

Basicly same as above, with Republic vehicles dominating the battlefield, and slight infantry superiority. Again, a jedi beats the MC, he is good, and he is fast, but the jedi is simply faster, and Obi-Wan is very experienced.

What's Muhinilist?
Can't find anything on Google.

Quick thoughts before analyzing terrain: AT-ATs will rule, while the AT-TEs not so easily give the clones an advantage. However, they had smaller bipods and scoutbikes, which will cause lots of ravage, and I think these fast units will be the death of the opposite side... as long as they don't fly through a barrage of bullets, which would decimate the pilots on the scoutbikes and even their vehicles.

Most interesting will be to see Obi-Wan's lightsabre try to cut through MC's shield. Would it work in one strike?
And what if MC surprises OW with a rifle? Jedi suck with their lightsabre against high rofs, and I don't think OW will think about a telekinetic wall in time.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What's Muhinilist?
Can't find anything on Google.

I would guess Muunilinst

Most interesting will be to see Obi-Wan's lightsabre try to cut through MC's shield. Would it work in one strike?
And what if MC surprises OW with a rifle? Jedi suck with their lightsabre against high rofs, and I don't think OW will think about a telekinetic wall in time.

MC's shield isn't terribly strong, it protects from a brief spray of bullets/plasma, and plasma swords cut through in one hit almost always (in game). cant think of one being used against him while shielded in the books though.
Surprising Obi-Wan may be the hard part here, and Obi-Wan's defense is good, the ROTS novelisation has him blocking 80 attacks per second against grevious if memory serves, faster than the ROF of the assault rifle or smg.

Clear Air Turbulence wrote: Surprising Obi-Wan may be the hard part here, and Obi-Wan's defense is good, the ROTS novelisation has him blocking 80 attacks per second against grevious if memory serves, faster than the ROF of the assault rifle or smg.

The author's fingers must have slipped. It's such an overexageration, it's almost like the contrary (one dodge every 80 seconds) in the film. :)

That fight (among other things) does pan out a little differently in the film, yeah, and that was from memory, so quite possible i'm misremembering it anyway. That said, though I play far too much halo I wouldn't be betting on the Chief if he is anywhere nearby to a Jedi of Obi-Wan's skill.

If memory serves, Master Chief isn't exactly on the poor side of dodging himself. There were some novel quotes I've seen here and there that basically say he's able to bullet dodge. But then, I'm not exactly sure how well that fits with the games and the like.

As for Darth Vader, well, the sad truth is that in the movies he wasn't all that good, not in the OT, at least. Rigid movement, not much technique beyond 'swing blade like it was a sledge-hammer' and less use of force powers when compared to the PT era. In the PT era, things are quite different indeed. So I really don't know how to quantify him. Take the usual 'visuals are GOD' route? Or allow for some common sense and logic too seep through, trying to extrapolate what the fights should look like, rather then actually do look like, trying to compensate for the uncertainties and errors caused by the limited nature of the movies?

l33telboi wrote:If memory serves, Master Chief isn't exactly on the poor side of dodging himself. There were some novel quotes I've seen here and there that basically say he's able to bullet dodge. But then, I'm not exactly sure how well that fits with the games and the like.

He certainly has very fast reflexes, the book "The Fall of Reach" has his reaction time at 20 milliseconds without the enhancing armour, unless i'm mistaken good for a normal human is around 200. The problem of course is that the Force user has that little "what's going to happen in the next ten seconds" premonition. The MC's reactions are superhumanly fast, the Jedi's reflexes are supernaturally fast (effectively a negative reaction time)

As for Darth Vader, well, the sad truth is that in the movies he wasn't all that good, not in the OT, at least. Rigid movement, not much technique beyond 'swing blade like it was a sledge-hammer' and less use of force powers when compared to the PT era. In the PT era, things are quite different indeed. So I really don't know how to quantify him. Take the usual 'visuals are GOD' route? Or allow for some common sense and logic too seep through, trying to extrapolate what the fights should look like, rather then actually do look like, trying to compensate for the uncertainties and errors caused by the limited nature of the movies?

We only see him fight Luke in the movies though, (Han doesn't count, that wasn't a fight) and he never fights that hard, he toys with Luke a little on Bespin to get a feel for how well he is trained, and by Endor he doesn't want to kill him, and basicly gives up. The Han-blaster bit gives me a thought, would the MC be strong enough to hold onto his gun if it was yanked from him?

Clear Air Turbulence wrote:The Han-blaster bit gives me a thought, would the MC be strong enough to hold onto his gun if it was yanked from him?

Stupid idea of the day: I can picture MC strapping a grenade to the rifle, with the ring attached to his arm. When Obi-Wan Force grbs the rifle, the grenade is armed. It explodes in his face. :D

Muunlinst will be a better engagement zone. Fast vehicles won't be much of an advantage in a scenery full of buildings and battles occuring indoor from time to time.
Now, fast AND small vehicles will be better. Zapping across the streets will be better than trying to move a tank through what looks like Washington on steroids, with a good thousand parthenons for good measure.

Clear Air Turbulence wrote:The problem of course is that the Force user has that little "what's going to happen in the next ten seconds" premonition.

No, it's not.
The "Force Precog", as it is often refered to, is pretty good when anticipating where people will shoot, but as the Fight between Obi-Wan and Jango Fett showed us, it doesn't do jack squat when up close and personnel in HtH combat.
Obi-Wan never knew where Jango's punches or kicks were coming from in advance, except when he was able to read Jango's body movements.
Against a trained soldier like MC, who wears an armor that speeds him up consideratly faster then his normal reaction time (I have read FoR too), Obi-Wan's down for the count if it closes in HtH.
And MC uses grenades when needed, and Obi-Wan's performance against blast weaponry (Slave One's guns) proves again how limited precog is.
If the weapon's power packs had not been depleted, Obi-Wan would have been... :)

Once again, it comes down to people over-estimating Jedi's and Sith's powers and abilities.
Yes, they are very good, but in terms of skills, MC is simply leagues above them...