Ground conquest: Federation vs. Ogre, C&C

[l33telboi]

Even a simple shuttle will probably survive being hit by GDI/NOD's 'doomsday' weapons. Heck, even in the CnC universe those doomsday weapons can't even manage to destroy simple concrete buildings in one shot. And everything else the GDI and NOD forces can manage has even less power.

According to the C&C3 novel, one Ion-cannon (and there are many) is able to keep the lights on on the entire western hemisphere for months (IIRC). Squish, same guy I mentioned earlier, toyed around with that and got a few Gigatons as the end result. How much of that can be channeled into a single shot is unknown though.

They were also the only weapons strong enough to detonate the Tiberium Bomb, indicating that normal nukes just weren't enough, and NOD had those.

Another interesting tidbit is from one of the scientists when he says the Tib bomb would have a yield ten times that of a 200 megaton thermonuke. That suggests that such weapons have actually existed at some point.

But all in all, using in-game ranges and sizes has never been a valid way to quantify anything. Why? Because it doesn't make sense. Tanks with a range of some tens of meters? Soldiers bigger then cars? It doesn’t work.

[Roondar]

Even a simple shuttle will probably survive being hit by GDI/NOD's 'doomsday' weapons. Heck, even in the CnC universe those doomsday weapons can't even manage to destroy simple concrete buildings in one shot. And everything else the GDI and NOD forces can manage has even less power.

According to the C&C3 novel, one Ion-cannon (and there are many) is able to keep the lights on on the entire western hemisphere for months (IIRC). Squish, same guy I mentioned earlier, toyed around with that and got a few Gigatons as the end result. How much of that can be channeled into a single shot is unknown though.

They were also the only weapons strong enough to detonate the Tiberium Bomb, indicating that normal nukes just weren't enough, and NOD had those.

Another interesting tidbit is from one of the scientists when he says the Tib bomb would have a yield ten times that of a 200 megaton thermonuke. That suggests that such weapons have actually existed at some point.

But all in all, using in-game ranges and sizes has never been a valid way to quantify anything. Why? Because it doesn't make sense. Tanks with a range of some tens of meters? Soldiers bigger then cars? It doesn’t work.

Funny..

In my eyes the game is CnC canon. The rest is, err, not. Which is logical, seeing that the CnC universe pretty much is the game.

Besides, the ingame cutscenes also show that the yields are quite a bit smaller than what the novel claims. It's not just the gamescreen that shows low yields but the 'movies' as well. And I'd like to think that those are in fact 'high canon' as far as CnC goes.

Edit: perhaps I should clarify this a tad. I have no problems with high CnC weapon yields (a 200MT nuke would be possible today, albeit an incredibly heavy and cumbersome weapon would be the result), I mostly have problems with the size and mobility of their weapons. Sure, they can probably drop a high-yield nuke onto the battlefield or blast the ion cannon on it.

But can they reliably hit shuttles and runabouts (i.e. the space/air support of the Feds) that way?

I feel that is going to be a serious issue.

So suffice to say I feel that the CnC groundforces have a major advantage, but that I'm not so sure about the air/space battle.

[Roondar]

Onscreen yields of nuclear devices may be "puny," but those are the smaller tacticals. You can bet that strategic grade warheads can and will be fitted onto guided missiles.

Runabouts may be small capital ships, but as normally designed, they fight with microtorpedos, and can probably be hurt by the same. The yield of those is unclear, but it could easily be single digit megaton range.

That's not to say they'll be easy to hit or destroy, but it's presumably possible, and Starfleet wouldn't be throwing them through the portal too quickly.

I have severe doubts about that.

GDI/NOD tech is mostly shown as 'advanced real earth' tech. For reference, the USA has only ever maneged to get a best-case scenario of (roughly) one metric ton of weight per megaton of explosive for their ICBMs. This limit is mostly caused by the warhead requirements. One cannot make a plain-ol-nuke much lighter than it is now because of that.

Which will put significant strains on the capability to create a missile which has multi-megaton yield, yet have the manouverability to be able to hit a small target like that.

But, I allready stated that I believe the runabouts could be disabled or destroyed eventually. I merely said I feel that simple AA fire won't be enough for them or for the shuttles.

[l33telboi]

In my eyes the game is CnC canon. The rest is, err, not. Which is logical, seeing that the CnC universe pretty much is the game.

Yes, the game is canon. Which means that stuff like fluff descriptions and cinematics can be taken as fact. Gameplay, however, obviously cannot. Because we know that there are visual flaws there. In fact, they're not only there, but they're actually expected to be there, if they weren't there, you'd have an unplayable game. People aren't bigger then cars, tanks don't have ranges in the tens of meters, and humans hit by point-blank shots from railguns don't survive. But these limitations are set there deliberately so that the game would be enjoyable. It's called game mechanics, certain aspects of reality has to be changed in order for the game to work at all.

This is why using those visuals as if they were a correct interpretation of reality is flawed, because it will not (and can't be expected to) give us an accurate picture of what things are really like in C&C-verse.

For my part, I generally treat what you see on screen when playing as about as accurate as chess is to mediaval warfare.

There are differences between quantifying games and TV-shows, and this is the biggest one.

Besides, the ingame cutscenes also show that the yields are quite a bit smaller than what the novel claims. It's not just the gamescreen that shows low yields but the 'movies' as well. And I'd like to think that those are in fact 'high canon' as far as CnC goes.

There is only one cinematic of the new Ion Cannons (they are a different model from the older ones, new and improved) and that's this one. Suffice to say that C&C3 is one game where visuals don't show smaller yields then dialogue, rather the other way around.

But can they reliably hit shuttles and runabouts (i.e. the space/air support of the Feds) that way?

I feel that is going to be a serious issue.

It's actually not. The OP stated that there would be no space support and that's what Ion Cannons basically are. So they would be a non-issue, I merely decided to elaborate on the point because you seemed to think Shuttles could survive being hit by these things because their on-screen effects were unimpressive.

If they were allowed however, things would become very different indeed. As the Ion Cannons aren't the only things GDI has put in orbit, they have space stations, spy-satellites, kinetic-kill and laser weapons systems in place to protect those Ion Cannons as well.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Regarding the ion cannon:
Should we account the possible presence of large amounts of tiberium, inside or nearby the target?

[Trinoya]

The above video of an the IC blast is NOT the actual power of the blast. In this above video Kane had developed a terrible weapon that would be activated by the IC. You are actually seeing the result of that weapon, with the IC merely being a detonator.


I don't actually see why there is a large issue here: The feds simply gain superiority via runabouts and shuttles, something WELL within their capability to do. The IC is a space based weapon and therefore not usable in the scenario, and ultimately ineffective against runabouts (A major issue with Ion Canons is you need to WAIT for them to be in an appropriate orbit to hit your target) who should be able to take them out in a few shots or so, considering decidedly sub nuclear yields took out GDIs biggest baddest space station ever.

All the feds need to do is secure the LZ as it were. Once they get a shield generator up that's it... it's over. They can bring troops, supplies, craft, etc in at their leisure... and with the obvious targeting capabilities of federation runabouts, the subsequent nuclear strike will be, to say the least, blasted away. The first working transporter ends the war decisively as the command structure of both GDI and NOD are merely transported into holding cells, though I'm sure Kane could easily pull a disappearing act, as he often does.

Afterwards, the federation merely waits for the last few cells of resistance to reveal themselves, while turning the population of a decimated earth against its former rulers with the promise of such wonderful things like food, clothes, and safe 'blue zones.' The terraforming of earth begins and tiberium is removed.

The only 'good' chance that the C&C universe has is entirely based on Kanes tib bomb, which GDI would do everything, including siding with the federation, to prevent from being used ever again. Notably, the IC is not usable so good luck in activating that thing.

Now the question really is, what happens when Kane comes back...
*dun dun DUN*

<_<

[l33telboi]

The above video of an the IC blast is NOT the actual power of the blast. In this above video Kane had developed a terrible weapon that would be activated by the IC. You are actually seeing the result of that weapon, with the IC merely being a detonator.

Indeed, it says as much in the video itself. But the bomb was to be 2 gigatons in yield. What we saw there was not 2 gigatons going poof.

[Opecoiler]

I don't actually see why there is a large issue here: The feds simply gain superiority via runabouts and shuttles

That might be the case for C&C, but it almost certainly isn't going to happen with Ogre.

In DS9's "Battle Lines", a 900 megawatt blast was sufficient to bring down a runabout's shields and cause heavy damage to it. The problem is that the Ogre factions have 500 megawatt anti-missile lasers all over everywhere important, and they also have access to hyper-manuverable 100 kiloton cruise missiles capable of Mach 4 flight.

Aircraft are totally obsolete in Ogre for a good reason, sattelites even less so. And this isn't even getting into the strategic laser platforms that can destroy orbital targets and have at least the same power as the tactical ones, and quite possibly more.

[Roondar]

The above video of an the IC blast is NOT the actual power of the blast. In this above video Kane had developed a terrible weapon that would be activated by the IC. You are actually seeing the result of that weapon, with the IC merely being a detonator.

Indeed, it says as much in the video itself. But the bomb was to be 2 gigatons in yield. What we saw there was not 2 gigatons going poof.

We can actually be pretty darned sure that the IC had very little to do with that blast. It is regularly used near or in the battlezone proper without anything remotely resembling that firepower. Heck, the first or second GDI mission in CnC 3 has you firing the damned thing within striking distance of the capital of the USA.

[Roondar]

I don't actually see why there is a large issue here: The feds simply gain superiority via runabouts and shuttles

That might be the case for C&C, but it almost certainly isn't going to happen with Ogre.

In DS9's "Battle Lines", a 900 megawatt blast was sufficient to bring down a runabout's shields and cause heavy damage to it. The problem is that the Ogre factions have 500 megawatt anti-missile lasers all over everywhere important, and they also have access to hyper-manuverable 100 kiloton cruise missiles capable of Mach 4 flight.

Aircraft are totally obsolete in Ogre for a good reason, sattelites even less so. And this isn't even getting into the strategic laser platforms that can destroy orbital targets and have at least the same power as the tactical ones, and quite possibly more.

On the other hand, Runabouts have survived being hit by photon torpedoes. Whose yield is at the very least in the megaton range. It is quite conceivable (I admit not seeing the episode recently so I cannot know for sure) that it was not so much the 900 megawatts but rather the type of blast which was the problem.

Also note that Mach 4 is, considering the nature of the craft we are discussing, rather slow.

I'm not saying that the Ogre have nothing that can threaten Fed air forces, but 100KT is not going to cut it. Nor is mach 4.

[Opecoiler]

On the other hand, Runabouts have survived being hit by photon torpedoes. Whose yield is at the very least in the megaton range. It is quite conceivable (I admit not seeing the episode recently so I cannot know for sure) that it was not so much the 900 megawatts but rather the type of blast which was the problem.

And yet there was no mention of funky energy. Just that there was a "Significant power buildup".

Funnily enough, 600 megawatts was considered that significant power buildup-and that isn't even twice as powerful as an Ogre anti-missile laser.

Also funnily enough, you have not given an episode or an example where runabouts have survived getting hit by photon torpedoes. I have given an exact example where a runabout was badly mangled by a slightly over 900 megawatt blast.

Also note that Mach 4 is, considering the nature of the craft we are discussing, rather slow.

It's barely big enough to fit through the portal. Unless it wants to risk smacking the ground the moment it leaves, the runabout isn't going to blast through at full speed. There is plenty of oppritunity for missiles to be launched at it as it leaves the portal.

Plus I love how you completely ignored the lasers, which move at the speed of light.

Going into orbit just leaves the runabout vulnerable to strategic laser batteries.

I'm not saying that the Ogre have nothing that can threaten Fed air forces, but 100KT is not going to cut it. Nor is mach 4.

"TRek winz cuz I say so hur hur!"

Seriously, provide proof of your claims.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Two things.

One, the weapon is actually charging for some time, and firing for only a brief moment - meaning that the weapon was most probably firing a gigajoule level burst and was somewhere in the general gigawatt range in terms of output.

Not that the runabout was destroyed; its shields were dropped, is all. A 500 megawatt laser is, in practice, going to be an order of magnitude or more weaker than the weapon used in "Battle Lines."

Two, the case in question is one of our lower runabout durability figures when we synthesize everything.

The runabout is ~1/10,000th the size of a GCS, several times the size of a regular shuttle, and about ten times the size of a shuttlepod.

As we've seen with shuttlepods in ENT, the actual hull itself is also pretty tough as far as these sorts of weapons are concerned. Not only are Ogre AA lasers not quite in the range to drop a runabout's shields, they're barely in the range to damage a shuttlecraft's hull, unless focus and train rates are truly remarkable.

As gigaton-range weapons threaten a GCS, it's perfectly reasonable to expect 100 kiloton weapons to threaten a runabout or shuttle. We're talking something with a reactor core that's around petawatts to tens of petawatts.

They may be proportionately less threatening to runabouts - runabouts are, pound for pound, very nice starships, something shuttles aren't - but they should be considered a threat, realistically speaking, and shuttles won't necessarily be always moving at hypersonic velocity in atmosphere.

[Roondar]

And yet there was no mention of funky energy. Just that there was a "Significant power buildup".

Funnily enough, 600 megawatts was considered that significant power buildup-and that isn't even twice as powerful as an Ogre anti-missile laser.

Also funnily enough, you have not given an episode or an example where runabouts have survived getting hit by photon torpedoes. I have given an exact example where a runabout was badly mangled by a slightly over 900 megawatt blast.

--

"TRek winz cuz I say so hur hur!"

Seriously, provide proof of your claims.

Allright, I'll search for a screenshot of a photon hit. I'm pretty sure it happens, but if not I'll conceed the point quite hapilly.

However, on the little matter of your 'just over 900 MW' blast, you do realize that this claim is a (forgive me the expression) load of crap?

From the episode in question, with time index:

09:17 - 600 MW
09:22 - 900 MW
09:24 - Fire

Impact time: 5 frames max.

Now, I'll assume you understand basic physics, so you'll understand that the minimum power build up involved 600*5 + 900*2 (assuming no further increases but the named ones) = 4800MJ (or 4,8GJ).

Impact time = 5 frames max (could be three, but better to err on the side of caution). Minimal power dissipated by shields is therefore 4,8GJ in 0.2 seconds, or 24GW.

This is a lower limit, because we're assuming no energy is added from any potential reserves nor that the power generation ratio increases gradually instead of only twice.

Of course, this is still rather short of 100KT (by several orders of magnitude even). On the other hand it's also 26 times higher than your upper limit claim and is a lower limit for the energy involved, not an upper.

Then again, the assumption that the Ogre will have the ability to launch those missiles in time and accurately aimed is not a necessity. Why exactly would they know where to shoot anyway (esp. at the beginning)?

Anyway, next time you require proof I'll try to find more visual evidence for you. However, in return I expect you to not just state previously refuted statements regarding ST capabilities (unless I'm mistaken you probably just copied this claim from another site and took it on face value). See, it's not that I mind much doing research, but I do mind being told off about my level of evidence when yours is just as lacking.

[l33telboi]

We can actually be pretty darned sure that the IC had very little to do with that blast. It is regularly used near or in the battlezone proper without anything remotely resembling that firepower. Heck, the first or second GDI mission in CnC 3 has you firing the damned thing within striking distance of the capital of the USA.

Yes, not much point in creating an Ion Cannon that can only fire multi-megaton shots when they're designed for use on a tactical scale. However it was the only thing powerful enough to set the Liquid-T bomb off, indicating that it is indeed in the megaton range, as NOD do have access to nukes. There would be no point in creating that elaborate trap for GDI if all they had to do was to set off a nuke next to the Liquid-T bomb.

Also, IIRC, one intel entry says some people thought it was quite hypocritical for GDI to be stating that they're going to stop using nuclear weapons on the same day as the Ion Cannons were brought on-line. Indicating that they indeed serve the same function and have a roughly equal destructive potential.

This is the magic of variable yields.