Ork WAAUUUUUGHH vs. Trek Earth redux

[Opecoiler]

Urgent need for particular crew members who were on vacation and incommunicado.

Getting ahold of crew members on vacation in peacetime could hardly be more different than getting ahold of trained pilots while being under
attack from a massive, utterly alien enemy force.

Given that "dogfight maneuvers" have been limited to the Defiant and occasionally runabouts and shuttlecraft, not too often... nor have we seen circumstances where piloting skills proved inadequate.

Inadequate for what?

Unless you have proof that all Starfleet pilots have dogfight training, it must be concluded that they only have knowledge of how to safely get the shuttle from point A to point B without any trouble and maybe basic evasive manuevers-which is nowhere near being able to dogfight.

Now compare the average amount of training and simulated combat, and compare the kill ratios typical of Ork flyboyz fighting against normally trained Guard pilots in similar craft.

Since when was training or simulated combat an acceptable substitute for the real thing?

Also, Spock, your ignorance of 40k shines again. Thunderbolts are controlled by the Navy, not the Guard. Those same fighter craft took around 75% losses in the initial sorties thanks to the Ork's sheer numbers, despite their pilots skill. Throughout the rest of the war, they were barely able to prevent the Orks from getting total air supremacy.

(Source: Epic rulebook, page 101)

Orkz are not known for their elite level of skill or exceptionally good aim. They're known for being clumsy and making up for low quality with high numbers.

And yet they still inflicted hideous losses on the Imperial Navy fighter wings, despite those traits.

Orks are generally known for being clumsy and inaccurate, but the belief that all Orks are clumsy and inaccurate has cost many an overconfident soldier his life.

Orks do possess a certain low cunning, and it shows in units such as stealthy kommandos and tankbustas skilled at destroying enemy vehicles and fortifications with rokkit launchas and demolition charges.

Which is irrelevant to the question of how Starfleet pilots would be affected.

Pearl Harbor didn't exactly involve a massive invasion from a completely alien species.

And yes, it would be relevant. Even if the pilots all kept perfect morale, the general public would be in a frenzied state, and there would pontentially be rioting or at least jampacked routes as people attempted to flee. Starfleet has to keep its civilians under control and divert personnel, however little is needed, to do so, while the Orks have no need, again giving them an advantage in terms of skilled personnel.

All four of them are quite practicible for Starfleet shuttles... and I again challenge you to produce any evidence for you claim that Starfleet pilots are commonly untrained for fighter combat. You have produced no evidence for this contention.

Burden of proof, Spock. Show evidence that they are commonly trained for fighter combat.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Getting ahold of crew members on vacation in peacetime could hardly be more different than getting ahold of trained pilots while being under
attack from a massive, utterly alien enemy force.

Who left behind comms.

No, most will be a phone call and a transporter beam away. Easy.

Inadequate for what?

Unless you have proof that all Starfleet pilots have dogfight training, it must be concluded that they only have knowledge of how to safely get the shuttle from point A to point B without any trouble and maybe basic evasive manuevers-which is nowhere near being able to dogfight.

No; lacking evidence for or against, we conclude we don't know whether or not all, or merely some, Starfleet trained pilots can dogfight, and therefore assume neither side has an advantage in this regard.

We have, of course, evidence that some can.

Since when was training or simulated combat an acceptable substitute for the real thing?

Since it became indistinguishable from it.

Also, Spock, your ignorance of 40k shines again. Thunderbolts are controlled by the Navy, not the Guard. Those same fighter craft took around 75% losses in the initial sorties thanks to the Ork's sheer numbers, despite their pilots skill. Throughout the rest of the war, they were barely able to prevent the Orks from getting total air supremacy.

(Source: Epic rulebook, page 101)

Thanks to sheer numbers the Orks managed to overcome conventionally trained human fighter pilots.

As I pointed out, that does not indicate that Orks make for very good pilots. This is when the Ork fighters outnumbered the 81 Imperial interceptor wings by over 10:1 in the skies.

Pearl Harbor didn't exactly involve a massive invasion from a completely alien species.

And yes, it would be relevant. Even if the pilots all kept perfect morale, the general public would be in a frenzied state, and there would pontentially be rioting or at least jampacked routes as people attempted to flee. Starfleet has to keep its civilians under control and divert personnel, however little is needed, to do so, while the Orks have no need, again giving them an advantage in terms of skilled personnel.

And Starfleet is diverting pilots? Stay on topic.

Burden of proof, Spock. Show evidence that they are commonly trained for fighter combat.

Show evidence that they aren't and you'll be able to assert something about relative skill. Burden of proof lies with the one making a claim, rather than suggesting we don't know enough to be claiming an advantage for either side.

[Opecoiler]

Who left behind comms.

No, most will be a phone call and a transporter beam away. Easy.

"Ok, civilian shuttle pilots, you are going to fly in a combat mission against a completely alien species that we know nothing about."

Seriously, even I granted you, you still have to get the shuttles themselves up and running, you'd have to worry about pilots who have been suddenly yanked away from their homes and families to fight a completely alien species, you'd have to coordinate the takeoffs of these masses of shuttles to prevent accidents, etc.....

It's not going to be a smooth "Get enough shuttles to match the Orks in numbers" affair.

Since it became indistinguishable from it.

Regardless of how sophisticated the simulations are, a simulation can never become indistinguishable from actual battle, through psychological means if nothing else.

Thanks to sheer numbers the Orks managed to overcome conventionally trained human fighter pilots.

As I pointed out, that does not indicate that Orks make for very good pilots. This is when the Ork fighters outnumbered the 81 Imperial interceptor wings by over 10:1 in the skies.

They didn't manage to overcome trained human pilots in the initial stages of the battle, they smashed them aside like a hammer!

Oh, and even if Ork flyboyz lack the discipline and coordination of Imperial pilots, they still have the individual capacity to perform complex dogfighting manuevers, as their record above Armageddon and the Deff Skwadron graphic novel shows. There are highly skilled veteran Ork pilots such as the Green Barun as well.

And Starfleet is diverting pilots? Stay on topic.

You'd have to divert at least a few shuttle pilots and craft for that role, for emergency evacuation if nothing else.

Show evidence that they aren't and you'll be able to assert something about relative skill. Burden of proof lies with the one making a claim, rather than suggesting we don't know enough to be claiming an advantage for either side.

You can't prove a negative, Spock. I'm asserting that until you show hard proof that every Starfleet pilot has been trained in dogfighting, we must assume that they can't. I've given proof of Ork flyboyz being trained dogfighters, and I'm waiting for some of it from you.

And I like how you completely ignored my statement regarding Ork tankbustas and kommandos, which show how they're not all straightforward savages and would be useful in the battle to come.

[Roondar]

Wait wait wait...

You are stating that Starfleet, the frikking military of the Federation does not train it's pilots for combat. Even though everything we've seen about Starfleet academy so far seriously suggests that they in fact receive a military education and not a civilian one?

Even though every single Starfleet pilot or helmsman we've seen on screen has shown they in fact do have combat training and have a military rank to boot?

Don't make me start laughing.

(on a sidenote, it's not as relevant as it might seem anyway, Federation shuttles are not limited in firing in straight arcs, nor are they unshielded cardboard boxes. They are in fact warp capable, shielded vessels with impressive weapons arcs and have been shown to be capable of engaging in combat even under solely computer control)

[Jedi Master Spock]

"Ok, civilian shuttle pilots, you are going to fly in a combat mission against a completely alien species that we know nothing about."

Seriously, even I granted you, you still have to get the shuttles themselves up and running, you'd have to worry about pilots who have been suddenly yanked away from their homes and families to fight a completely alien species, you'd have to coordinate the takeoffs of these masses of shuttles to prevent accidents, etc.....

It's not going to be a smooth "Get enough shuttles to match the Orks in numbers" affair.

Try "Hello recent Starfleet pilot."

Regardless of how sophisticated the simulations are, a simulation can never become indistinguishable from actual battle, through psychological means if nothing else.

For all practical intents and purposes, holodeck sims are indistinguishable from reality.

They didn't manage to overcome trained human pilots in the initial stages of the battle, they smashed them aside like a hammer!

Oh, and even if Ork flyboyz lack the discipline and coordination of Imperial pilots, they still have the individual capacity to perform complex dogfighting manuevers, as their record above Armageddon and the Deff Skwadron graphic novel shows. There are highly skilled veteran Ork pilots such as the Green Barun as well.

Smashing them at 10:1 odds says nothing.

There are some skilled Ork pilots. We also know there are some very skilled Starfleet pilots, but we can't assume that every pilot matches Sulu and Paris.

You'd have to divert at least a few shuttle pilots and craft for that role, for emergency evacuation if nothing else.

Actually, the transporters would be a better pick for that in many cases.

However, I will note that the craft best used for evacuation are not the same as those best suited to engage the Orks, in most cases.

You can't prove a negative, Spock.

Actually, you can in many cases prove positives and negatives. If you are referring to the "negative proof" fallacy, it is your argument which matches it.

I'm asserting that until you show hard proof that every Starfleet pilot has been trained in dogfighting, we must assume that they can't.

In other words, you want to assume something to be true because there is no evidence for or against it - something which, I will add, is virtually impossible to prove as stated (we can say nothing about "every Starfleet pilot" with certainty, because we only see a few).

All your talk about burden of proof amounts to trying to claim that your assertion should somehow be taken as true unless proven false.

Whether your assertion is a claim about ability or inability, you need evidence in order for it to be taken seriously. Until you provide such evidence (and little is available for your sweeping statement or its negation), your claim will not be taken seriously.

[Opecoiler]

Try "Hello recent Starfleet pilot."

And so you focus on only one part of my reply and dodge around the rest of it, the parts which show that ex-Starfleet or not, it will not be easy to send up lots of shuttles through all the chaos in the smooth manner you're suggesting-which will be multiplied when starports are subjected to attack runs from fighta-bommerz, or worse, being stormed by Ork troops descending from landas.

For all practical intents and purposes, holodeck sims are indistinguishable from reality.

Not really. Regardless of how realistic it seems, if you know you're in a simulation, you don't have the same do-or-die feeling that comes from being in real combat.

And holodecks aren't perfect like you claim. From "We'll Always Have Paris":

RIKER: Think anyone'll mind if we arrive a little ahead of schedule?

TROI: I know I won't. I've been looking forward to a nice swim.

DATA: You are aware Counselor, that the Holodeck can be programed to recreate an oceanic environment.

TROI: It's just not the same, Data. Have you ever gone for a real moonlight swim?

It isn't concerned with combat, but still shows the limitations of a holodeck.

Smashing them at 10:1 odds says nothing.

It does unless you can prove that Starfleet will be able get a more equal ratio.

Fighta-bommerz aren't going to be the only threat to shuttles trying to do what you're saying. Starfleet shuttles will have to deal with landas and heavy bommerz bristling with defensive guns (and those canonically downed many Imperial fighters), as well as Ork AAA that ranges from manpack and vehicle-mounted rokkit launchas to flakwagonz (Wartrukz carrying twin or quad arrangements of heavy autocannons).

There are some skilled Ork pilots. We also know there are some very skilled Starfleet pilots, but we can't assume that every pilot matches Sulu and Paris.

Though I'm still looking for proof of dogfight training, for now I'll let it slide so the debate doesn't get bogged down. I'm not conceding the point, just putting it aside for later discussion.

Actually, the transporters would be a better pick for that in many cases.

Transporters serve as bottlenecks for people moving through. They can only handle so many people at a time-especially since you've been claiming that transporters will be used to ferry military personnel around.

However, I will note that the craft best used for evacuation are not the same as those best suited to engage the Orks, in most cases.

Still, they take up both skilled pilots and Starfleet resources.[/quote]

[Jedi Master Spock]

And so you focus on only one part of my reply and dodge around the rest of it, the parts which show that ex-Starfleet or not, it will not be easy to send up lots of shuttles through all the chaos in the smooth manner you're suggesting-which will be multiplied when starports are subjected to attack runs from fighta-bommerz, or worse, being stormed by Ork troops descending from landas.

Well, I've already pointed out that if those are truly extensive enough, then Earth folds fairly quickly.

If not, then it will be fairly easy to send up shuttles.

Not really. Regardless of how realistic it seems, if you know you're in a simulation, you don't have the same do-or-die feeling that comes from being in real combat.

And holodecks aren't perfect like you claim. From "We'll Always Have Paris":

RIKER: Think anyone'll mind if we arrive a little ahead of schedule?

TROI: I know I won't. I've been looking forward to a nice swim.

DATA: You are aware Counselor, that the Holodeck can be programed to recreate an oceanic environment.

TROI: It's just not the same, Data. Have you ever gone for a real moonlight swim?

It isn't concerned with combat, but still shows the limitations of a holodeck.

It's realistic enough to lose track of reality pretty easily - and Troi is perhaps not the best person to ask. Holodecks don't provide anything empathically.

It does unless you can prove that Starfleet will be able get a more equal ratio.

No, it doesn't.

Now... proof of the shuttle count is not going to be available. We can try to estimate it using various techniques, but we're not going to be able to peg the shuttle total with great accuracy.

Thousands, even tens of thousands is likely, sure. Trek Earth is likely to have more Type Whatever shuttles lying around than modern day Earth has fightercraft.

Fighta-bommerz aren't going to be the only threat to shuttles trying to do what you're saying. Starfleet shuttles will have to deal with landas and heavy bommerz bristling with defensive guns (and those canonically downed many Imperial fighters), as well as Ork AAA that ranges from manpack and vehicle-mounted rokkit launchas to flakwagonz (Wartrukz carrying twin or quad arrangements of heavy autocannons).

And Ork fighters will similarly likely face ground based fire. Nothing demonstrably unique about Orks firing AA weaponry.

Transporters serve as bottlenecks for people moving through. They can only handle so many people at a time-especially since you've been claiming that transporters will be used to ferry military personnel around.

As far as "bottleneck" goes, relocating one person per second per transporter from arbitrary point A to arbitrary point B on the planet is not bad.

Still, they take up both skilled pilots and Starfleet resources.

The former, as I pointed out, are going to be in ample supply; the latter are there to be used.

[WolfRitter]

Show evidence that they aren't and you'll be able to assert something about relative skill. Burden of proof lies with the one making a claim, rather than suggesting we don't know enough to be claiming an advantage for either side.

Tried to explain it to you once before Spock, but you just ignored me, let's put what you say into a legal setting.

'Show evidence that they aren't [guilty] and you'll be able to assert something about innocence.' Please, read this. You are wrong, but again you will ignore it, because that is what you and your cronies do, you ignore anything that contradicts you.

[Who is like God arbour]

The question is, if you have read it yourself.

• • • • Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see negative proof).
        
        Taken more generally, the standard of proof demanded to establish any particular conclusion varies with the subject under discussion. Just as there is a difference between the standard required for a criminal conviction and in a civil case, so there are different standards of proof applied in many other areas of life.
        
        The less reasonable a statement seems, the more proof it requires.

Considering what we know about human behaviour, we can make prognoses and extrapolations and have to do it if there are no other data available and the conclusion, that, because there is no proof for anything, there is nothing, is not plausible.

• We have no proof that there are toilets onboard of the Enterprise NCC 1701 E.
  • But we can assume it, presuming that the humans of that time still have a need for them.
    • Is there any reason to assume, that the humans of that time don't have a need for toilets anymore?
  We have no proof that military shuttle pilots are trained for fighter combat.
  • But we can assume it, presuming that the military of that time still needs fighter combat trained pilots.
    • Is there any reason to assume, that the military of that time wouldn't need fighter combat trained pilots anymore?

Insofar, the assumption, that Starfleet trains its pilots in fighter combat is not bold but very plausibel whereas your claim, that they don't train their pilots in fighter combat means, that they have stopped sometime in the past to train them.

Can you prove, that Starfleet, that has emerged from modern military, that trains its pilots in fighter combat, has sometimes stopped such a training? Because that would be implausible and a bold claim. You could claim as well, that human beings in the 24th century don't have a need for toilets anymore.

That's a good example for Occams razor. Jedi Master Spocks assumption presumes no change in the training of pilots in the course of time. Your assumption requires such a change. If you have no evidence, that such a change has occured, your claim may be possible, but it would still be improbable.



Besides it seems, that even from an Starfleet candidate - not yet a cadet let alone a full trained pilot - it is expected to be able to steer an shuttle and be able to do evasive maneuvers:

• • • • • • • STAR TREK: DEEP SPACE NINE
              • • "Facets"
        
        
        1 INT. RUNABOUT (OPTICAL)
        • where a very tense looking NOG is in the pilot's chair. He's engaged in evasive maneuvers... someone is on his tail, and he's running scared.
          
          • • COMPUTER VOICE
            The Cardassians are still closing ... they have powered their weapons systems --
          
          Nog gulps and works the console, and the ship banks hard to the RIGHT... through the window we see the Starfield shift hard to the left. Suddenly a SERIES of WARNING BEEPS pierce the air...
          
          • • COMPUTER VOICE
            They have established weapons lock...
          
          Nog squelches a yelp of panic and swats at a control ... the ship banks hard to the LEFT.
        
        
        2 NEW ANGLE (OPTICAL)
        • THROUGH THE WINDOW, we see the stars shift hard to the right and a PHASER BLAST shoot past... a near miss... it explodes in the distance...
        
        
        3 RESUME SCENE
        • The BEEPING stops...
          
          • • COMPUTER VOICE
            Weapons lock broken ...
          • • NOG (works console)
            Going to warp ...
          
          We hear the SOUND of the ship going to warp. After a beat, Nog allows himself a small smile of triumph... he works the console until he's startled by a KNOCKING SOUND ... when he looks up toward the window his eyes go wide with alarm and a scream escapes his lips ...
        
        
        4 NEW ANGLE - LOOKING THROUGH THE WINDOW (OPTICAL)
        • JAKE is outside, peering in through the window, trying to get Nog's attention ... behind him, the stars shoot by at warp ...
        
        
        5 RESUME SCENE (OPTICAL)
        • Nog reacts with annoyance at the sight of his friend.
          
          • • NOG
            Get out of here, Jake, I'm in the middle of a simulation ...
          
          Nog sees Jake mouth a "What?" and realizes his friend can't hear him through the window. Frustrated, Nog speaks to the com.
          
          • • NOG
            Computer, end program ...
          
          The runabout DISAPPEARS around him and we...
        
        
        6 INT. HOLOSUITE
        • ... as Nog, who was in a sitting position, falls back on his behind when the chair disappears from underneath him ... Jake, who's standing about seven feet in front of him, steps forward to make sure he's all right.
          
          • • JAKE
            You okay --
          
          Nog refuses his help and gets to his feet on his own.
          
          • • NOG
            Look what you made me do!
          • • JAKE (trying not to laugh)
            You should know not to end a program sitting down.
          • • NOG (annoyed)
            What did you come in here for?
          • • JAKE
            You were supposed to meet me half an hour ago.
          • • NOG
              (backing off)
            I didn't realize it'd gotten so late. Sorry.
          
          Jake is more than willing to accept his apology.
          
          • • JAKE
            Don't worry about it... how's it going, anyway?
          
          They start for the door.
          
          • • NOG
            Pretty good... I've improved my reaction time by almost twenty percent... (grave) I've got to get it up another five...
          • • JAKE
            Is that the cutoff point for getting into the Academy Preparatory Program?
          • • NOG
            Exactly...

[Roondar]

Show evidence that they aren't and you'll be able to assert something about relative skill. Burden of proof lies with the one making a claim, rather than suggesting we don't know enough to be claiming an advantage for either side.

Tried to explain it to you once before Spock, but you just ignored me, let's put what you say into a legal setting.

'Show evidence that they aren't [guilty] and you'll be able to assert something about innocence.' Please, read this. You are wrong, but again you will ignore it, because that is what you and your cronies do, you ignore anything that contradicts you.

The claim by Opecoiler is very much identical to what you state JMS is doing. It is merely in reverse form, but it is clearly no better.

"Starfleet pilots have not been shown to dogfight". His conclusion "therefore they can't dogfight". This is the same as saying "US MIRV nukes have not been shown in action*" and concluding "therefore, they do not work".

It's not the the statement which is in error, it is the conclusion. You cannot logically conlude anything from an unknown quantity.

Even moreso because we in fact do have evidence regarding pilot skill in the ST universe. Assuming Starfleet (i.e. the military) trains it's pilots without including combat training merely because we don't see shuttle dogfights onscreen is more than a tad weaselish (we do see the Defiant 'dogfight' with several ships in DS9, sharp turns, chases and all after all).

*) All MIRV tests to date where done without live warheads, so no actual MIRV detonation has taken place.




In fact, your little 'innocent until proven guilty' defense has nothing to do with this scenario.

A courtroom specifically changes the burden of proof to prevent a scenario where a case leads to a "nonresult"**. Courts, by definition, have to conclude "guilty" or "not guilty". To prevent a courtcase from reaching a conclusion and to not give the prosecution an edge (which is a social choice, not a requirement) most justice systems therefore resolve "nonresult" into "not guilty". However, this has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with social and moral choices.

A logical debate has no such restriction, it is entirely possible and quite normal to reach a position where no conclusion is drawn in a debate. It is in fact arguably the only correct way to proceed when no proof can be found either way, regardless of what the courtrooms show us.

Not too mention it is rather easy to abuse your point of view that negative assertions without proof for or against them are therefore true. I merely have to state all claims about unknowns in the negative for an automatic win.

**) The logical course of action is clear: if no evidence for guilt or innocence is found, no conclusion can be made about events.

[Opecoiler]

If not, then it will be fairly easy to send up shuttles.

Are you sure? All it takes is one landa full of Orks descending to the port to really mess things up.

It's realistic enough to lose track of reality pretty easily - and Troi is perhaps not the best person to ask. Holodecks don't provide anything empathically.

Even if you are immersed in it almost totally, there's still part of your mind that knows "It's just a simulation, just a simulation", that isn't present in a real battle.

No, it doesn't.

Now... proof of the shuttle count is not going to be available. We can try to estimate it using various techniques, but we're not going to be able to peg the shuttle total with great accuracy.

Thousands, even tens of thousands is likely, sure. Trek Earth is likely to have more Type Whatever shuttles lying around than modern day Earth has fightercraft.

Dismissed as speculation.

And Ork fighters will similarly likely face ground based fire. Nothing demonstrably unique about Orks firing AA weaponry.

Ground fire from what?

Provide proof of Federation anti-air weapons. And no, Quarks weapon doesn't count, since all it did was destroy a low-flying drone at short range, and wasn't even of Federation origin.

As far as "bottleneck" goes, relocating one person per second per transporter from arbitrary point A to arbitrary point B on the planet is not bad.

You've been singing the praises of transporters moving thousands of troops around, moving pilots to shuttles quickly, and now evacuating civilians. Even something as efficient as that will cause bottlenecks.

The former, as I pointed out, are going to be in ample supply; the latter are there to be used.

You've pointed out only speculation.

[Roondar]

Ground fire from what?

Provide proof of Federation anti-air weapons. And no, Quarks weapon doesn't count, since all it did was destroy a low-flying drone at short range, and wasn't even of Federation origin.

From ST:TMP "V'Ger disabled the entire planetary defense grid". From DS9: A Breen attack force gets decimated by Earths defenses. Note that no Starships where alleged to have taken place in the defense of Earth (IIRC).

That is pretty conclusive evidence that at the very least some ground/air support exists on Earth.

Edit:
In fact, it's pretty conclusive evidence that your whole 'Federation have no groundforces' or 'Federation cannot defend from invasion - it has no defenses' stance is dead wrong.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Are you sure? All it takes is one landa full of Orks descending to the port to really mess things up.

Not a singular port, ergo not a question of one landa showing up in the wrong place early.

Even if you are immersed in it almost totally, there's still part of your mind that knows "It's just a simulation, just a simulation", that isn't present in a real battle.

And? It's still remarkably good training, even if it tends to train them to fly like sociopaths. I don't think so myself; holodecks are very convincing.

Dismissed as speculation.

Grounded speculation, which is quite literally all we have.

Ground fire from what?

Provide proof of Federation anti-air weapons. And no, Quarks weapon doesn't count, since all it did was destroy a low-flying drone at short range, and wasn't even of Federation origin.

I've demonstrated it is probable. Roondar has actually pointed out why some systems are definitely present.

You've been singing the praises of transporters moving thousands of troops around, moving pilots to shuttles quickly, and now evacuating civilians. Even something as efficient as that will cause bottlenecks.

I prefer to think of it as alleviating the bottlenecks that conventional transport would tie up in.

Of course, we have no idea how many transporters are available in civilian life, or what their speed and capacity are - one of many great unknowns in this scenario.

You've pointed out only speculation.

For most of what you want to talk about, there is only speculation available.

[KILL YOUR PARENTS]

There are highly skilled veteran Ork pilots such as the Green Barun as well.

Do you have a source for this? Not because I doubt you, but because I must read about this "Green Barun". It sounds like a wonderful concept.

[Opecoiler]

There are highly skilled veteran Ork pilots such as the Green Barun as well.

Do you have a source for this? Not because I doubt you, but because I must read about this "Green Barun". It sounds like a wonderful concept.

Epic rulebook:

Led by the then notorious 'Green Barun', three squadrons of 'Da Red Choppas' preyed on Imperial supply lines and shipping for over two months until a combined Imperial strike force of the 301st Airwing and Cruiser Ascention finally defeated the Orks in a three hour aerial battle over Hades Gap.