The UFP and GE versus the Daleks

[Roondar]

I mean the one after the depression. There where three Daleks present so at least these three had the technology. And since Daleks are continously shown as a timetravelling species I don't consider it to be too much of a stretch to assume this is just part of what later-day Daleks where capable of.

In the ep before this one in question, I only remember one that could emergency temporal shift. All the others were drawn to the thing that the Doctor and Rose built that used the Torchwood equipment. Though, it might have been an ability given to the other 2 at some point. But, I still might be wrong and all of them could temporal shift. However, that makes me wonder. If they all could, why didn't they do that when the Eccleston Doctor yelled he was coming for them?

The Daleks so far have shown they are quite willing to engage the Doctor. Secondly, while the Daleks in the episode you are refering to where acting somewhat nervous about the prospect of the Doctor showing up, their leader at the time (the emperor) most definitely was not!

For all we know Dalek shields use temporal technology.

And the borg do have experience with temporal sensors and chroniton fields.

Which, may or may not extend to them being able to breach Dalek shielding. Note that the Daleks are not exactly new at this whole timetravel thing and that even species who make it their business to control time (i.e. the Timelords) where not capable to stopping the Daleks temporal tech.

Ergo, the Borg, which have so far shown only rudimentary levels of controlling time compared to the Daleks might actually be able to spot they are using time tech but this does not mean they can actually penetrate it.

Or use actual energy instead of particles. Or are, conversely very tight particlefields.

Energy is made up of energy and particles are made up of energy.

Errrm, no they aren't. Matter and Energy, while convertable, are not the same thing. It is theoretically possible to have particles without any energy.

Or a million other things which may, or may not have quantum resonance frequencies.

Typically, if something is gonna interact with a particular universe, it's gonna involve energy, which will need a quantum resonance for interacting with that specific universe.

<shrug> Even if that is the case, you still won nothing.

We don't know the resonance frequencies of Dalek weapons and shields. For all we know they are never the same or out of range of the Borgs ability to adapt to. Which, considering the Borg are definitely beatable by energy weapons, is not too far a stretch.

In other words, we can't be sure they use energy in the same way...

Which wouldn't be required.

Bzzzzt!

1) The Borg showed a remarkable lack of adaptability to Species 8472. Which used quite plain forms of energy in their ship-ship weapons.

2) The Federation where able to merely adapt the frequency of their shields to nearly completely be able to stop Borg weapons. By the time of FC they had in fact visually perfected this ability with the Borg slugging it out in quite normal means instead of ignoring shields alltogether like they where capable of in earlier engagements.

So yes, it actually does matter how the Daleks use energy to be able to tell wether or not Borg can penetrate Dalek shielding or adapt to Dalek weapons.

Also note that claiming the Borg can adapt to any type of shielding and any energy level of shielding (or otherwise) is a) shown to be false in various Startrek episodes and b) a no limits fallacacy.

I was speaking of types of shielding. Trek force fields in corridors, for instance, as well as those used in the brig, are walls of electrons. Seven was shown to walk right through when her implants reactivated. We've seen borg cube shields block the brute force energy attack of the E-D's deflector dish spitting out the warp core energy in one enormous blast and they weren't bothered because they knew how to protect themselves because of what Picard knew. We've also seen them adapt to the particle streams fired by phasers. And I forget the ep, but the holodoc said the tubules could get through any known energy field or material at the time.

The only one that's been shown to have a real effectiveness against the borg is 8472 and nanobots, but only because of the speed that their immune systems attack the nanobots.

A few points:

1) You idea that Trek/Borg forcefields are walls of electrons is just that, an idea. It could actually be something else entirely since we never get to hear the mechanisms of the fields on the show. They certainly don't act like a high capacity field of electrons would on people.

2) The brute force attack by the Enterprise was anticipated. Considering the size of the ships in question it is not too odd to assume the Borg could just project a shield which generated more power than the Enterprise could in response. Secondly, the brute force attack by the Enterprise was not quite brute force. There was quite a bit of technobabble leading up to it's deployment.

3) Adapting to phasers particles means nothing. It is known that phasers use, regardless of any other setting, a specific technobabble particle. To block a phaser one would only need a way to block that single particle. Note that there is no way of knowing if blocking nadions will be easier than blocking whatever the Daleks use. And again, we've seen the Borg being unable to adapt to a variety of energyweapons and sources so it is quite clear Borg adaptation has it's limits.

4) The Holodoc was speaking from his knowledge. He does not know about Daleks. Since the Daleks might have entirely different technologies in place and entirely different materials in use than anything he knows about this means absolutly nothing about Dalek materials and shielding and how the Borg would interact with them. Please remember that Daleks where able to construct materials which where there, yet not there which made them impregnable to anything the Doctor could figure out.

5) Daleks have shown they are able of some quite funky DNA tricks in their own bodies so it's not quite sure if nanoprobes will actually succeed in overwriting their DNA. Not too mention most Daleks choose death before contamination so even if you do get in nanoprobes they can always still self destruct (after all, assimilation does take a bit of time during which the subjects in question do still show free will).

I was refering to their armour suit being vacuumproof (as well as obviously not made out of something pierced easilly by other means) i.e. not letting air or other substances through. The Borg use these nanoprobes for assimilation, which so far have never seen to be able to work without direct contact with the skin of the subject. Hence I'd say a tin can without openings is plenty of defense.

I don't think an unopened tin can would be good, since we've known them to alter solid material into borg pieces, which is probably how they get through solid barriers.

We've never seen them assimilate anyone that way though. In fact, Borgs have shown a remarkable lack of assimilating people without getting in say, 20 cm or so of their skin. Dalek armour is visually thicker than that.

Secondly, the Borg could just fire nanoprobe weapons at unshielded starships if it really was that simple. We know they have the tech to do so but they never do use a weapon like that. Even though it would make perfect sense to do so.

And again, there is no way to know if Borgs can actually breach Dalek armour. They might have the capability and yet, they might not. Dalek material science is obviously quite far ahead of that of the Federation. Assuming Dalek materials to be equally vulnerable to Borg attack is just that, an assumption.

[GStone]

Which, may or may not extend to them being able to breach Dalek shielding.

Maybe, but they do have a chance.

Ergo, the Borg, which have so far shown only rudimentary levels of controlling time compared to the Daleks might actually be able to spot they are using time tech but this does not mean they can actually penetrate it.

They did use a temporal vortex to send a sphere to the past. A mini-vortex opens and send a weapon beam/torp through to inside the dalek.

Errrm, no they aren't. Matter and Energy, while convertable, are not the same thing. It is theoretically possible to have particles without any energy.

I wasn't saying they were the same, but that one is made up of the other. But, if you're refering to point particles, they have no spatial dimensions. That would limit its interaction with other things. Whatever makes up the dalek's shields, there is some kind of substance because it is interacting with normal matter.

<shrug> Even if that is the case, you still won nothing.

We don't know the resonance frequencies of Dalek weapons and shields. For all we know they are never the same

This is a tactic used by many against the borg, including the Federation, but it doesn't last long in each encounter.

or out of range of the Borgs ability to adapt to. Which, considering the Borg are definitely beatable by energy weapons, is not too far a stretch.

I think it would depend on the level of discrimination of the numerical values of energy frequencies. Whether the daleks can be more exacting in the specifics of the energy than the borg. However, I wonder just how much is precise frequency adaptation on the borg's part and how much is brute force repulsion. Given the level of continuum distortion tech used throughout trek, I think it might a factor. Distorting the space-time continuum wouuld alter the direction the path 'impacting' energy is taking. But, we have also seen the borg use force fields that have kinetic energy stopping poperties, like in BoBW (Locutus v Worf) and First Contact (Queen v Data).

Bzzzzt!

1) The Borg showed a remarkable lack of adaptability to Species 8472. Which used quite plain forms of energy in their ship-ship weapons.

On a person-to-person basis, the reason the borg can't assimilate 8472 is because their immune system is so quick that they attack the nanobots before they can attach to blood cells and do their thing. Species 8472 also use organic ships. Presumably, the source of their energy weapons is also organic and might have properties that are related to that immune response. Voyager developed a torp that would release borg nanobots and attack 8472. However it would be released, an explosion would be involved, but the nanobots would still survive. Maybe something like a shaped charge?

But, what is often the case, the borg need some measure of time to adapt to the energy of the weapon used to varying degrees. A shot from an 8472 ship could use that delay time to 'attack' borg tech the same way their immune system fights nanobots (assuming there is an organic immune response incorporated into their energy weapons), as well as brute force (no matter if that force is considerable or negligable- it's some amount of impact because the beams have substance) and if there is any other techy physics things involved. We won't know that one way or the other unless they revisit 8472.

2) The Federation where able to merely adapt the frequency of their shields to nearly completely be able to stop Borg weapons.

But, this only last for a certain amount of time.

By the time of FC they had in fact visually perfected this ability with the Borg slugging it out in quite normal means instead of ignoring shields alltogether like they where capable of in earlier engagements.

Unless the whole idea of going into the past was decided upon before the encounter began. With the queen feigning weakness, she could have used the explosion of the cube as cover for her attempt to travel into the past. We do know that one ship picked up her escape, the E-E. But, we don't know if there were any other ships that found out the sphere was running. The explosion of the cube may have aided in masking her run, but the E-E might have been the only one close enough to the sphere that the explosion didn't interfere as much as it did the other ships' sensors.

A few points:

1) You idea that Trek/Borg forcefields are walls of electrons is just that, an idea. It could actually be something else entirely since we never get to hear the mechanisms of the fields on the show. They certainly don't act like a high capacity field of electrons would on people.

In the episode where B'Elanna found Tuvok's tactical scenario with the Maquis trying to take the ship and Seska made a holoversion of herself to kill him, HoloTuvok tell RealParis that the force field in the brig is an electrostatic force field. The only explanation that makes sense is a wall of electrons. We do know that ship shields are continuum based, as far as the major space farring species/groups go, including the Federation, and we know that they spread things around the area to lessen the impact because we see the glow and energy wrapping around the impact site. Also, in the VOY ep where Virginia Madson plays an alien of a species that can effect both biological and technological memory, Harry has a PADD and talks about dispersing the particle stream of her species ship energy weapons. But, never have ship shields (at least of the major powers, like the Federation) been referred to 'electrostatic force fields'.

2) The brute force attack by the Enterprise was anticipated. Considering the size of the ships in question it is not too odd to assume the Borg could just project a shield which generated more power than the Enterprise could in response.

Except, when phasers and torps have gotten through, with their much lower level of power/energy, there wasn't that massive amount of damage. It would take a lot, even when it's concentrated, like in First Contact. All of the warp reactor energy was being channeled through the deflector dish and a sustained blast was putting them at risk of fucking themselves up. Even though they stopped when they did, it still took them a while before they could go after the cube when it left for Earth.

With such a great discrepency between 'deflector warp firing' and phaser/torps, a few seconds from the deflector would have been sufficient, if even that long. But, that beam was going for a while.

Secondly, the brute force attack by the Enterprise was not quite brute force. There was quite a bit of technobabble leading up to it's deployment.

Tue, but the only other thing that's been visible that's a continuum distortion that wasn't impacting anything is the tractor beam, even when it's weak and that's most likely just as a tracer.

3) Adapting to phasers particles means nothing. It is known that phasers use, regardless of any other setting, a specific technobabble particle. To block a phaser one would only need a way to block that single particle.

And the kinetic energy of the stream of particles being fired.

4) The Holodoc was speaking from his knowledge. He does not know about Daleks. Since the Daleks might have entirely different technologies in place and entirely different materials in use than anything he knows about this means absolutly nothing about Dalek materials and shielding and how the Borg would interact with them. Please remember that Daleks where able to construct materials which where there, yet not there which made them impregnable to anything the Doctor could figure out.

In The Dalek Invasion of Earth, their casings are said to be a bonded polycarbide. This would mean that there are compounds of carbon with other elements. Now, even assuming that these other elements invovled things unknown to Fed or borg science, they still involve carbon.

5) Daleks have shown they are able of some quite funky DNA tricks in their own bodies so it's not quite sure if nanoprobes will actually succeed in overwriting their DNA.

I thought nanobots just overrode the control of cells. When Picard was unborged, his body systems went back to normal.

We've never seen them assimilate anyone that way though. In fact, Borgs have shown a remarkable lack of assimilating people without getting in say, 20 cm or so of their skin. Dalek armour is visually thicker than that.

But, that doesn't mean they couldn't convert some of the solid material to create an opening.

Secondly, the Borg could just fire nanoprobe weapons at unshielded starships if it really was that simple. We know they have the tech to do so but they never do use a weapon like that. Even though it would make perfect sense to do so.

There may be other factors involved we don't hear that makes it less efficient. Probably with there being no one there to physically direct things on larger scales.

[Narsil]

You know what, GStone, I'm going to use shown Dalek abilities to extrapolate their strategy. We know they can keep up with a TARDIS via time travel (The Chase), we know that a TARDIS can go back to the very beginning or the very end of the universe (Edge of Destruction, Utopia). We also know that 'collapsing' the universe is quite possible by travelling to a parallel universe unsafely (Rise of the Cybermen, Doomsday) and that the Daleks themselves can travel between various parallel universes (Doomsday).


What they do is go back to the beginning of time, collapse the universe before it begins and find another one. Simple enough, really.

[GStone]

You know, that scenario completely negates the whole point of the match up, so they aren't gonna do that...unless you want to say daleks are idiots.

[Narsil]

It's just really one of those things that they can do;

They can just blow up the current universe and go to another one. You also have to remember that Daleks do have significant experience fighting foes that are likely utilise temporal methods. In fact, they've faced a foe who did time travel and other such in all but one of their appearances.

Basically, you're fighting a losing battle with the Daleks. They can really just erase the Borg from history using time travel, and they have enough in the way of firepower to devastate Type 4 Civilisations. This battle is not fair, not even remotely. Basically I just made it to see if you'd try to think of yet one more impossible way for the Federation or Borg to win. In this case, 'impossible' seems an apt descriptor. They have, canonically, devices that can travel to any point in time and space (as seen in The Chase) and happen to be dimensionally transcendental. They have a bunch of bombs that can devastate planets in a single shot.

What's to stop them materialising one of their time capsules on every Borg vessel that ever existed and then leaving behind a Really Big Explosive each and every time it happens. Basically, this is an even more stupidly unmatched scenario than the Culture, because the Daleks are to the Culture what the entirety of humanity is to an ant.

[GStone]

It's just really one of those things that they can do

But, they aren't. Not if they're gonna fight and not if they show up in the Milky Way galaxy at the specified time frame. They'd skip that part and go right to the beginning of the universe. You need to stop changing fights in the middle of the discussion.

Basically I just made it to see if you'd try to think of yet one more impossible way for the Federation or Borg to win. In this case, 'impossible' seems an apt descriptor.

What the fuck is wrong with you? You need to stop this obsession with my responses to versus scenarios.

Take a wild guess. I'm very good at thinking up possible avenues of attack and strategies in often seemingly hopeless situations. I've done that a lot.

Give up your obsession. Accept it.

[l33telboi]

I'm very good at thinking up possible avenues of attack and strategies in often seemingly hopeless situations. I've done that a lot.

That's part of the problem. Vs debating isn't about finding ways for one side to win against another, even in hopeless situations (anyone can do that), it's about taking a scenario and figuring out what will most likely happen in it. We're supposed to be objective, remember? Yes, I know debating is subjective (especially when discussing fictional things) and it always will be, even if you use the scientific method and apply Occam’s razor. So everyone will every now and then give their favored faction some leeway while clamping down more rigidly on others. It’s simple human nature.

But at some point you have to realize that if your main focus is on figuring out specific strategies used in concert with specific technologies just so one side can win over the other, then you will be missing the big picture. Sure such tactics might be used, heck, they might even work, but the probability of that is quite miniscule. I admit that toying around with such tactics and strategies might be fun (and that's what all this is about in the first place, fun), but in the end, it's a minor diversion compared to what we're logically supposed to do - which is to pursue the big picture.

[GStone]

What I often see is people that just stop at whether a side has a specific technology. As much as it seems like I always want trek to win, that's not true. While I can see some saying 'but, they can do this and that', I'm fine with that. But, many times, I see people that are just flat out denying a capability when it's shown to happen. That's just wrong.

In this thread, Narsil asked if the Feds and the Empire could survive. In the Culture thread, he said said the alphas and beta powers must survive at any cost. However, in typical Narsil fashion, he switches the scenario around if those on the side he wants to lose don't come to the same conclusions he thinks. And those people seem to be narrowed down to one individual every damn time: Me. Given his oversimplication of scenarios to just 'my side's ships are faster; their weapons are stronger', it's an inaccurate appraisal of the situation.

[Roondar]

What I often see is people that just stop at whether a side has a specific technology. As much as it seems like I always want trek to win, that's not true. While I can see some saying 'but, they can do this and that', I'm fine with that. But, many times, I see people that are just flat out denying a capability when it's shown to happen. That's just wrong.

In this thread, Narsil asked if the Feds and the Empire could survive. In the Culture thread, he said said the alphas and beta powers must survive at any cost. However, in typical Narsil fashion, he switches the scenario around if those on the side he wants to lose don't come to the same conclusions he thinks. And those people seem to be narrowed down to one individual every damn time: Me. Given his oversimplication of scenarios to just 'my side's ships are faster; their weapons are stronger', it's an inaccurate appraisal of the situation.

On the other hand, your ideas about Borg angles of attack are just assumptions. Despite me showing you over and over again that you cannot assume Borg tech will work on the Daleks because the Daleks and the species the Borg have assimilated are quite dissimilar you refuse to even accept that this might be the case. Refusing to accept something might not go the way you thought up is not a valid debating style. And that goes for you just as much as for Narsil. And yes, you are just as guilty of it.

I'll give you one quote which shows exactly what I think the problem here is:

Ergo, the Borg, which have so far shown only rudimentary levels of controlling time compared to the Daleks might actually be able to spot they are using time tech but this does not mean they can actually penetrate it.


They did use a temporal vortex to send a sphere to the past. A mini-vortex opens and send a weapon beam/torp through to inside the dalek.

There are two really, really big problems here. Problems which I see with your debating style a lot. It's not personal in anyway, but you must realize that

1) Dalek and Borg temporal tech are like Fed tech and stone age caveman tech.

There really is no comparison. You take one example of Borg timetravel and expect them to be able to be effective with their tech versus creatures that are so advanced in timetravel they're capable of pushing individual beings through time. Oh and go pretty much anywhere, anytime at will.

This is like me saying "I've seen ships from Babylon 5 use lasers, 20th century earth can also make lasers so we'd have a chance at defeating their spaceships using our lasers".

It just does not work that way, because what you are doing here is equating any level of capability with any other.

2) You assume the Borg can in fact open up these mini vortexes in the first place and as often as they like too. We have exactly one point of reference in the entire Startrek canon where the Borg use timetravel and they sure as hell didn't use mini vortexes then. Why would I, or in fact anyone else, have to agree to them suddenly having this capability?

The answer here is simple: despite your protests, we don't. They might be able to do it. But since that is not quantifiable, we can't use it in the debate. And certainly not as an accomplished fact!

What you are doing there is turning the assumption into an accomplished fact. Like you did in the Culture thread*.

It doesn't work that way though, because if you are allowed to turn assumptions into facts, so can anyone else in the debate. In which case this battle will be over real quick because I'd just state "The Daleks go back in time and erase all relevant civilizations from existence" and whenever you'd post a counter my counter would be "That's irrelevant, they've already erased the civilizations from existence so they cannot possibly do that".

*) Just so you know, I didn't stop arguing there because I felt you where right. I stopped arguing there because your style of arguing makes debating useless. I gave plenty of concessions to see if you'd concede your idea was just an assumption or even that there was a chance of failure. But you didn't. In the end I gave up, because arguing with someone who won't accept that his non-canon-supported idea (i.e. the weapon does not exist!) might actually fail to work is useless.

[GStone]

On the other hand, your ideas about Borg angles of attack are just assumptions.

I brought it up because, while there are limitations to how the borg think in fighting, we do have an instance where someone needed to ally themselves with the borg to get what they want and came up with a reason for them to go along with the plan. And, while the borg chose to turn on the new allies at the first opportunity, they were willing to go along with the plan until they could act. This happened when Voyager tried to get through borg space because the Northwest passage was full of 8472 ships.

Despite me showing you over and over again that you cannot assume Borg tech will work on the Daleks because the Daleks and the species the Borg have assimilated are quite dissimilar you refuse to even accept that this might be the case.

No, I accept they are dissimilar. But, that doesn't make what's similar disappear, such as the presence of carbon and the presence of quantum resonance frequencies of energy fields/particles that have substance.

Refusing to accept something might not go the way you thought up is not a valid debating style. And that goes for you just as much as for Narsil. And yes, you are just as guilty of it.

I have repeatedly had to show evidence after evidence of canon facts when their presence is dismissed, when some arguments are brought up in their oversimplified forms and ones that don't take certain things into account.

I don't deny that Dalek time travel physics is probably different than borg time travel physics. Given that they are from different universes, I can say that with almost a 100% certainty. The only reason why I still leave that sliver of doubt is because we have not had any canon evidence from either universe just what that temporal physics involves for specifics. That's all on that matter.

I don't deny that the borg have never gone up against dalekanium, but we do know from the Who canon that it is a polycarbibe. That is a compound that includes carbon. Are to assume that this is carbon other than the real world version? Based on what?

Even if the other materials used in dalek armor are nothing like what the borg have ever faced before, they are still familiar with carbon. And I'm gonna on a limb here and say that you were assuming that I was speaking of getting by the armor through at least the carbon parts of it, not that just because they could get through the carbon part, that means they'd get through all the other elements, too.

I'll give you one quote which shows exactly what I think the problem here is:

They did use a temporal vortex to send a sphere to the past. A mini-vortex opens and send a weapon beam/torp through to inside the dalek.

There are two really, really big problems here. Problems which I see with your debating style a lot. It's not personal in anyway, but you must realize that

1) Dalek and Borg temporal tech are like Fed tech and stone age caveman tech.

There really is no comparison.

And to be fair, we don't know the full extent of borg time travel abilities either. They have enough precision to create a vortex to a specific point in time. They are also able to maintain temporal synchronicity through an entire borg cube when doing things, like transwarp speeds.

As was said earlier, the daleks may have had lesser one-on-one abilities to time lords and used overwhelming numbers. We aren't too clear on the full extent of their abilities.

And the legnth of time a society has a particular tech doesn't mean it's uber. Many times, this has been used as an argument in favor of Empire tech being more advanced than Federation tech, because they've been around for thousands and thousands of years more.

You take one example of Borg timetravel and expect them to be able to be effective with their tech versus creatures that are so advanced in timetravel they're capable of pushing individual beings through time.

I have not said this. I have not taken one example. There are a few examples, but I do bring them up to their larger context and what it means for borg 'society' and their technological development.

Oh and go pretty much anywhere, anytime at will.

Oh, yes...I said this...right. Even though I didn't. And if it were true they could use their time traveling abilities to go pretty much any where or any time, why the hell are there transwarp conduits? They wouldn't be necessarily. Oh, wait. There are transwarp conduits used by the borg. There are also hubs. There were 6, but Voyager brought that down to 5, so they must not be able to use their time traveling abilities to cross space. It must be limited to...oh god...wait for it...


DUN dun duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunn!!

TIME!!!!!

NOT SPACE!!!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!!!

[laughs]

This is like me saying "I've seen ships from Babylon 5 use lasers, 20th century earth can also make lasers so we'd have a chance at defeating their spaceships using our lasers".

It just does not work that way, because what you are doing here is equating any level of capability with any other.

God, why do you keep acting like I think Trek factions are omnipotent? I spoke of canon facts of adapting to energy fields and converting materials of both universes. I have never said a drone's arm cannon could punch through dalekanium.

2) You assume the Borg can in fact open up these mini vortexes in the first place and as often as they like too.

1. I never said as often as they liked.
2. So, you think it's easer to open a much more massive opening for an energy field than something smaller? The borg temporal sensors in astrometrics are able to scan different time periods and this is said by Chekotay before he and Janeway get there, finding it is now the astrometrics lab of the future. He was still expecting the temporal sensors to exist from his own time period perspective. Are you suggesting that borg temporal sensors need a vortex the size of the one seen in First Contact that got the sphere to the past?

We have exactly one point of reference in the entire Startrek canon where the Borg use timetravel and they sure as hell didn't use mini vortexes then. Why would I, or in fact anyone else, have to agree to them suddenly having this capability?

And here we have the following 2 images rom Dark Frontier:

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =95&pos=19
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =95&pos=35

Eyeballing it, it is a ship that is somewhere similar to Voyager's volume. This ship had a transwarp coil on it, which was recovered and used on the Delta Flyer. This borg ship must have had chroniton fields throughout it. Their use at transwarp speeds can't be limited to just fields for cube sizes.

And I'm not suggesting that the borg would be able to create this mini-vortex on their own. They might, but I'm not 100 certain. But, what I do know is that if this suggestion was given to the borg, by someone in the Federation, we do know that they have used chroniton fields with transporter beams in Past Tense to try to find Sisko, Bashir and Dax. So, it wouldn't be entirely out of the question.

The answer here is simple: despite your protests, we don't. They might be able to do it. But since that is not quantifiable, we can't use it in the debate. And certainly not as an accomplished fact!

And if we only limit ourselves to what is specifically seen in the canon, then talk to Mike D about the Voth showing up and using the transporter as a weapon. All we ever saw it do was move Voyager to the inside of the ship. Talk to him about seeing soldiers equipped with phase cloaks. We only ever saw them used by a couple scientists. We don't know just how widespread the technology is. Ooo, what if it's a restricted teechnology and the scientist and his assitant were allowed special use of it in an attempt to discredit them, so the Voth government could maintain its control of its people?

We've only seen a couple daleks do personal temporal shifting and each time it was done, it was stated to be an 'emergency temporal shift'. It must not be used in normal circumstances. Those larger ships must be what's regularly used for time travel by them. Maybe it's because it's very draining on the indivudal, 'foot soldier'drone's power supply.

Do you really want to exclude any and all potential applications of known facts about their respective technologies and societies?

It doesn't work that way though, because if you are allowed to turn assumptions into facts, so can anyone else in the debate.

No, I see potentials as possibilties, based on shown and spoken of capabilities, their context and the logic of known trends.

In which case this battle will be over real quick because I'd just state "The Daleks go back in time and erase all relevant civilizations from existence" and whenever you'd post a counter my counter would be "That's irrelevant, they've already erased the civilizations from existence so they cannot possibly do that".

Then, fine. Maybe you could answer this for me then. If the point before hand is to take out these civilizations and their first idea is to go back before they appeared and wipe them out using time travel...why the hell have they shown up 'during the late twenty-third century'? Why would all 10 million ships do that?

Is it taunting? This is the time war era fleet. It's my understanding that they would just 'exterminate'. Is it to find out about the enemy? They already know enough that they want to kill them all.

This isn't about Trek capabilities. Explain to me the point. Is it a whim?

What you are doing there is turning the assumption into an accomplished fact. Like you did in the Culture thread*.

*) Just so you know, I didn't stop arguing there because I felt you where right. I stopped arguing there because your style of arguing makes debating useless.

I hadn't assumed anything one way or the other.

I gave plenty of concessions to see if you'd concede your idea was just an assumption or even that there was a chance of failure.

I always have. From the first time the versus question came up, I said point blank that the ideas I came up with might not work, but the point was that it wasn't ever as bleak as a lot of people were making it out to be.

But you didn't. In the end I gave up, because arguing with someone who won't accept that his non-canon-supported idea (i.e. the weapon does not exist!) might actually fail to work is useless.

And the main thing here is how far is the versus debate taken. Do you stick with just what is exactly seen or heard on screen, like everyone is stupid and couldn't ever think of anything beyond what is seen, regardless of the fact that technological development does happen. Or do you bring in the larger context of societal/scientific development, based on other facts here and there in the respective canons?

You choose the former, I choose the later.

[Narsil]

Funny, looking back on the OP; it mentions 23rd century Federation and the Galactic Empire versus the Daleks. No where does it say in the OP that the Borg get involved, and the Borg are a complete nonentity during the 23rd century.

[GStone]

This recent thing about the borg came about from one of Mike D's suggestions, that if the war became a truly galactic thing, societies, like the borg and the voth, would get involved. As might the temporal cold war factions, incliding the later centuries of the Federation.

[Narsil]

Not that it really matters, the Daleks could try building something akin to the Apocalypse Element, or a smaller version, and just destroy the entire galaxy rather than bother with ship-to-ship combat. One-off techniques among the Federation and Borg don't match the not-exactly-one-off techniques shown by the Daleks.

The problem is also that you're assuming that small tactics that work once or twice will work against what is essentially a foe with an entire universe to draw from.

While you claim that the 'simplicity' of speed and firepower is just being a bit stupid, a foe that can attack you at any point in the time/space continuum with enough power to devastate an entire sector of space, set off supernovas and also has multiple universes worth of resources to draw upon, you've lost unless you can match that.

GStone, you need to learn that there is a fucking huge and distinct sort of difference between 'Federation can beat the Empire' and 'Federation can beat a foe that has fringe abilities that make the Q's shown feats look awfully weak'. It isn't 'bending over sweetly', it's accepting that a mouse can't lift a mountain.

[GStone]

Not that it really matters, the Daleks could try building something akin to the Apocalypse Element, or a smaller version, and just destroy the entire galaxy rather than bother with ship-to-ship combat.

So, you've given up on the idea of them going to the 23rd century for whatever stupid reason is preventing them from going to the beginning of the universe or are you just brainstorming?

One-off techniques among the Federation and Borg don't match the not-exactly-one-off techniques shown by the Daleks.

And again, we have a very good example of handwaving away canon facts on the sheer reason of the limited number of times we see it on screen. Lame.

The problem is also that you're assuming that small tactics that work once or twice will work against what is essentially a foe with an entire universe to draw from.

And once again, you try to 'massage' the truth to give it an impression the cold hard facts say differently. You know, if they really wanted to 'exterminate, exterminate', why haven't they already gone back to the beginning of the Who universe and destroyed it? That'd be a really quicker way of doing that. Why aren't they going from universe to universe, destroying each reality?

While you claim that the 'simplicity' of speed and firepower is just being a bit stupid, a foe that can attack you at any point in the time/space continuum with enough power to devastate an entire sector of space, set off supernovas and also has multiple universes worth of resources to draw upon, you've lost unless you can match that.

And yet, I'm not seeing you go after Mike D's arguments when he brings in the larger, social and temporal aspects of such a fight. But, this is normal operating procedure. Start with the 'simplicity' of higher speed and weapon figures. Move to overstating abilities in a general way and when that doesn't keep people at bay, change the scenario in the middle of the discussion or have one side do something that makes no sense when looking at the original argument and the first post of the thread.

I might be wrong, but I'd wager that discworld thread was also another one of your attempts at trying to see what I'd do, like you have already admitted was the reasoning for 2 threads already.

GStone, you need to learn that there is a fucking huge and distinct sort of difference between 'Federation can beat the Empire' and 'Federation can beat a foe that has fringe abilities that make the Q's shown feats look awfully weak'. It isn't 'bending over sweetly', it's accepting that a mouse can't lift a mountain.

1. Shrinking Voyager to christmas ornament size, as well as its overall mass and weight; shrinking Voyager down to subatomic particle size, where subatomic particles are more asteroid size in comparrison to the ship; shrink a species of energy beings into hand held size.
2. No need for solid armor.
3. The only one that could hurt/kill a Q is another Q (unless a nonQ has a 'Q weapon'); strip and give back the powers of a Q. Give the powers of a Q to a member of another species; the only one to even imprision a Q in a normal piece of matter is another Q.
4. Alter organic bodies to reflect the phases of the progression of a disease; accelerate the growth of organic tissue.
5. Create images, solid items/scenes and organic beings and shape-shift themselves into either solid or energy forms or both.
6. Phase through solid matter and energy fields, as if they didn't exist
7. Can remain perfectly still on the outer hull of a starship travelling at warp speed.
8. Time travel without the need of technology.

Tell me of a lone dalek that can do more than that.

[Narsil]

So, you've given up on the idea of them going to the 23rd century for whatever stupid reason is preventing them from going to the beginning of the universe or are you just brainstorming?

Just brainstorming; there's so many ways that the Daleks can win this without direct engagement that it's really just become sad. Everything from planting the uber-discrete robomen as seen in I am a Dalek and Remembrance of the Daleks, to blowing up the galaxies.

And again, we have a very good example of handwaving away canon facts on the sheer reason of the limited number of times we see it on screen. Lame.

Yes, fantastically done, congratulations GStone. You've successfully ignored that the Dalek canon occurrences include devices that can very easily destroy planets, travel to any point in time and space, and just plain destroy the whole blinking galaxy.

And once again, you try to 'massage' the truth to give it an impression the cold hard facts say differently. You know, if they really wanted to 'exterminate, exterminate', why haven't they already gone back to the beginning of the Who universe and destroyed it? That'd be a really quicker way of doing that. Why aren't they going from universe to universe, destroying each reality?

Because the Time Lords, with even more of such abilities, aren't letting them do it. That's why the Time War happened, because they couldn't one-up the Time Lords in a history-manipulation fight and thus they went to war. You massaged away the Time Lords very well there, as well as every other higher-time race such as the Eternals, the Guardians, the People and all of the others.