Roondar wrote:To start of: GStone, if you don't mind, should we continue this discussion after this post I'm going to snip parts of it out because it's frankly becoming hard to edit and read this way. Go ahead and remove older stuff from me from your reply if you so wish as well.
That's what I usually do, so don't worry.
Both in their ability to kill (species 8472 kicked their behinds in space as well, even though the Borg had non-nanoprobe weapons aplenty and even though species 8472 was carbon based -tho this is from memory, correct me if I'm wrong-)
8472 ships are nimble, but they do come off as powerful. Their ability to adapt may require the existence of sensor information/data storage, which seems to be the case in suriving borg components in drones and with ships. If we are to accept that this is true, on a ship-to-ship level, the probability of the borg adapting to damage from dalek weapons might just depend on how much damage they can do (assuming that there is no interaction between the borg and a single dalek and that there is no info download from the dalek/assimilation happening).
With the knowledge that their weapons are organic, as well as the fact the immune system of 8472 is very quick to attack borg nanoprobes, there could be a similar thing going on with their weapons and their 'attack' of borg tech/ships.
And in their ability to defend (the Borg have been seen on ships that broke down due to hitting asteroids, being too close to the sun and bits of blown up planet, which contain mostly very normal atoms which will all have a quantum resonance factor.
I've never denied that a large amount of brute force could get through. In BoBW, Riker was commenting on the fact that the borg shouldn't have been able to adapt as quickly as they did, since we have seen them to take damage before adapting.
They've also shown an inability to defend themselves versus some non-federation energy weapons as well as future federation weapons)
In addition to the above, both the queen and Admiral Janeway believed that with the knowledge from the future about the weapons, the borg would be able to adapt.
I suppose it's better for us to agree to disagree in this, I simply don't agree that showing a faction has the pieces to the puzzle meaning they can make it work. Seeing federation tech in action, as well as their mishaps and failures frankly makes me feel there is a very good chance improvised items/weapons/defenses will fail to work.
Settled! Now, we can get to what's important:
MARBLE WARS!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't deny that Dalek time travel physics is probably different than borg time travel physics. ... I don't deny that the borg have never gone up against dalekanium, but we do know from the Who canon that it is a polycarbibe. That is a compound that includes carbon.
I have no problems with this assessment. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the carbon present in the armour is liable to be bypassed.
We are one step closer to marble wars.
Do you have your bag? ;-)
You did, however, strongly imply that Dalek shielding and armour where liable to be broken by the Borg regardless. Unless I've misunderstood your conclusions regarding quantum resonance and tubules.
You didn't. The question that remains is just how quick they might get through? A long time or a little?
Well, they do have to destroy 10 million ships ;)
And, at the same time, all those that got sucked into that thing Rose and the Doctor made, couldn't keep themselves from going in, except for the one that did the emergency temporal shift. And at the same time, too, Rose could hold on to the thing stuck on the wall. She didn't have any hover tech or time travel tech. The reason she was sucked in was because she tried to get the large lever to move.
and that, coupled with the fact that temporal weapons would be a killer technology which the Borg would surely use if they had it, is somewhat of a reason to not assume they can do it
Seven said she knew of the borg trying to stop first contact. I forget the ep, but she said it when she was in one of Voyager's halls. And, given that the later seasons of VOY were after FC came out, that'd mean they have the tech. And, with all the transwarp conduits in that hub before it was destroyed, they could have easily plowed through earth in the present instead of going to the past. They also could have traveled to the past before getting close to earth and then, travel to it. So, it seems that they might be trying to 'fatten up' the Federation tech wise. It wasn't my theory, but it does make sense.
And on a side note, it's trivial for real-world science to detect all kinds of interesting things with devices. Things we cannot readily use or produce in any way. The ability to detect something is different entirely from the ability to use it as you'd like ;)
That's the power of positive thinking.
In my mind, if the Borg -the single force in the Galaxy that won't shy away from using anything, no matter how vile, to gain their advantage- don't show the ability when it would be useful for them, it's quite reasonable to assume they don't have the ability to use it.
They are about efficiency, but we don't know the extent of their plans. We do know, for instance, that Seven was left on Voyager as part of some fact finding like expedition of the queen. They only regularly send just 1 cube to take on the Federation when they could easily plow through the whole damn thing if all of them were brought in, but they don't.
Oh no, but I have a more restricted vision of what is and what is not reasonable to include. For instance, we see Daleks using emergency temporal shifts under their own power so it might not be too much of a stretch to assume more than the ones we see doing it can use the technology. Or to assume other, conceptually similar ideas can be used (such as Daleks transporting someone else through time instead of themselves).
Maybe and maybe. I bring up the temporal vortex thing because, for instance, E-E didn't create the vortex, but they were able to use it when they chased the borg to the past. Could the daleks project out an 'emergency temporal shift' (vortex- for lack of a better word), so something else moves through time? Maybe. That might be how they move who fleets. One ship makes the 'vortex' and the others use it. Has there ever been evidence (visual, verbal or one's shifting tech was caput, but another's was fine and both were known to time shift and the one that wasn't working still hadn't worked after the shift) that'suggest one could use another's time shift 'rift'?
It's just that I personally (and I admit this readily) draw the line when things start becoming different in concept than what is shown. The Borg have shown the ability to manipulate time on a certain scale and using a certain amount of time. Your mini-vortex suggestion differs in scale, in required method (generated on a weapon most likely and the Borg don't usually fire 'torpedoes'), in application and most likely in required timescale as well (it's likely the minivortex would need to be generated much quicker as to not give away what is going on - the Daleks do know plenty of timetravel stuff after all) etc.
Now, the reason I feel these are problematic is we have no idea what kind of restraints the original tech requires. I'd have zero problems with the Borg attempting to use temporal vortexes somewhat bigger or smaller but I'm just not convinced they can just scale the tech to whatever dimensions they like.
Well, first, I'm not suggesting a torp that can time travel on its own. Borg ship uses the vortex generator, whatever that is, and fires the beam/torp/whatever inside.
Second, for them to be able to scan different time periods, the energy of the scanners in one time frame would need to interact with the energy of the other time frame. Somehow, that signal is getting through. Whatever the size of the borg temporal sensors, they are much smaller than a sphere ship.
(And on a sidenote, it was established to wear out the Dalek power supply to a degree - this was one of the given reasons why they used their pigmen instead of just blowing stuff up themselves)
So, it might come down to the numbers. Does ayone know approximately how many borg there are?
Well, you do extrapolate from current abilities and have a tendency to add quite a bit more powerful items to the factions than they've shown in the canon.
But, I don't go around, acting like just because the daleks fought the time lords that they are more powerful than Q. Yes, I do think of possibilities becuse of the extent I take versus debates. It's more applied science fiction, but I don't do anything that's completely unreasonable and I do it for both sides. I also make note of certain restrictions that are known. Trek just comes off as being more malleable than many others.
See, that is kind of the deal. My idea that more than just two Daleks might have emergency temporal shift capability is quite different from your ideas on say Federation phase cloaked ships firing temporal phased gravimetric warheads of yields far greater than the average photon/quantum torpedo has ever shown.
Well, on that bit, I did admit freely that the possible method I was using for how the transphasic torps worked might not be how they actually worked. I was working on one possible version.
As far as the torp, I showed gravity plays a role in subspace communications, that it was part of the signal sent by Data to the rest of the away team via phase realignment, that warhead yields are variable. Many do go to the default position that Harry was exaggerating on the extent of the yield, but given that there is also a likely chance that he wasn't (because there are times when people don't exaggerate when this sentence is applied to other situations), I don't see evidence that it
must be an exaggeration without a doubt.
I point out the limitations of trapdoor protection, no existence of being able to scan temporally phased objects in the Cultureverse. But, from what I understand, the Culture combines different tech pieces often. I don't remember if this happened in the novels, but I wouldn't be against the Culture taking a hyperdrive, slapping on some medical robots in a compartment, so it can go into an older or younger universe and pop back in to get past another's force field, make the commander/ruler a Culture hippy and pop back out.
It's not meant as an offense or anything, but that tech jump is quite literally, insanely huge. The Federation took years to come up with rudimentary anti-Borg equipment after first meeting them, yet your suggestion -which is off the charts in usefulness and power compared to their conventional weapons- is supposed to be figured out in under twelve days.
Again, it's never been required that it needs to be done in under 12 days. Hell, that intial post for that thread said they're to take out the major powers in the alpha
and beta quadrents. Even at Culture speeds, that's gonna take longer than 12 days.
I'm assuming the Daleks feel they don't need timetravel to exterminate things. However, that said, they most definitely use it in combat when they need too - they managed to evade the Time Lords quite effectively using it.
I'm assuming there are very good reasons the Daleks feel they don't need timetravel. Now, I'm not going to claim to know exactly what the Time Lords 'Black Hole Carriers' where but the entire dialogue around the Time War was quite clear in that both sides where ridiculously powerful and that their little fight had vast repercussions throughout pretty much the entire galaxy, if not universe.
Then, shouldn't we assume that since we know from the canon that the borg can time travel (and that trek canon isn't doing a highlander movie-tv canon split), that
they have a good reason for not using it all the time? That we are not going to claim to know exactly
what the reason is, but that there is one, since they aren't time traveling all the time, assuming they aren't doing it all the time off screen?
and hiding yourself between universes if the need arises.
Was it ever said just what the source of that hiding trick was? They used time lord tech to shove a bunch of them into a small space, but I don't remember them saying just what the source of the hiding part was.
Okay, marble wars in on!!! Where's your bag?!