The UFP and GE versus the Daleks

[Narsil]

Rightio; the Time War-era Dalek fleet (roughly ten million ships) arrives in the Milky Way Galaxy during the late twenty-third century, and decide to do what they do best. But, a group of wormholes leading to the ICS-level Galactic Empire are opened and they decide to intervene on behalf of the extragalactic human cousins.

The Federation and the Empire must both survive. Can they manage it?

[Narsil]

Slight edit to situation;
Absolutely no godlike entities are allowed on either side.

[Roondar]

The Daleks can travel in time. Case closed, the Feds and GE are eleminated before they can become the powers they end up being.

If that is not admissable, I suppose the fact that according to 'Who-lore' the Dalek fleets managed to fight of 'Black Hole carriers' and the like I think they'd still manage to win in normal conflict :)

[Narsil]

Well, they were given planet-cracking firepower in the Dalek Empire audio plays and some of the novels. And I think the general nature of Doctor Who itself makes the audios and other such quite admissable in a debate due to the timey-wimey stuff.

[Mike DiCenso]

The Daleks can travel in time. Case closed, the Feds and GE are eleminated before they can become the powers they end up being.

If that is not admissable, I suppose the fact that according to 'Who-lore' the Dalek fleets managed to fight of 'Black Hole carriers' and the like I think they'd still manage to win in normal conflict :)

The Federation also has time travel, though of a more limited capability then the Daleks and Time Lords of the Doctor Who universe. Also, the 29th and 31st century Federation have (will have?) very sophisticated time ships, which have the ability to transport anyone or anything anywhere and when in the Galaxy. So the Daleks being a major time travel-based power might attract the attentions of those time frames of the Federation, as well as the other Temporal Cold War factions. Things could get very messy as a result.

The Galactic Empire, for all that Wars fans like to wank it ship number and power-wise, has a distinct lack of temporal travel capability, which puts them at a significant disadvantage here.

If that is not enough, then certainly other much greater powers in the Milky Way won't care much for the Daleks showing up on their turf. The Voth and Borg among them. So if this conflict flares out into a true galactic conflict, things most definitely will get messy.
-Mike

[Narsil]

The Federation also has time travel, though of a more limited capability then the Daleks and Time Lords of the Doctor Who universe.

A few hundred years in either direction for the Federation. The Daleks and Time Lords can go from one end of time to the other without so much as a drain on the fuel tanks.

Also, the 29th and 31st century Federation have (will have?) very sophisticated time ships, which have the ability to transport anyone or anything anywhere and when in the Galaxy.

They haven't gone more than a few thousand years in either direction if I remember correctly, but the Daleks and Time Lords have battled across millions upon millions of years in the same sort of fight. It's a bigger fish entirely.

So the Daleks being a major time travel-based power might attract the attentions of those time frames of the Federation, as well as the other Temporal Cold War factions. Things could get very messy as a result.

It's quite possible, but the Daleks did beat down several other time-travel capable organisations on its way up the ladder. The Sontarans, Rutans and Autons all showed some impressive time travel capabilities; the Daleks on the other hand were a match for an organisation that rewrote the laws of physics on a whim.

The Galactic Empire, for all that Wars fans like to wank it ship number and power-wise, has a distinct lack of temporal travel capability, which puts them at a significant disadvantage here.

They do have it. By standing in one place for two seconds, they've travelled two seconds forwards in time. :P But that's just a joke, really; they have no real temporal capacity unless you just remove the temporal limiters on their ships which turn hyperdrives into time machines due to the ICS being allowed in this debate.

If that is not enough, then certainly other much greater powers in the Milky Way won't care much for the Daleks showing up on their turf. The Voth and Borg among them. So if this conflict flares out into a true galactic conflict, things most definitely will get messy.
-Mike

The Voth and Borg are nothing compared to the Daleks. The Daleks have canonically conquered an entire galactic cluster, destroyed a whole galaxy and done lots of non-temporal damaging stuff that makes them a force to be reckoned with. Hell, the Dalek ships have primary weapons that can destroy planets with single shots. (Dalek Empire, War of the Daleks.)

It'll be messy, but it's heavily stacked in favour of the Daleks due to their very nature.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:

The Federation also has time travel, though of a more limited capability then the Daleks and Time Lords of the Doctor Who universe.

Narsil wrote:

A few hundred years in either direction for the Federation. The Daleks and Time Lords can go from one end of time to the other without so much as a drain on the fuel tanks.

Fuel has never really been stated to be a concern for 23rd and 24th century time travel, either, though time travel techniques can have a detrimental effect on things like the low-quality dilithium crystals used in Klingon ships of the 23rd century [ST4:TVH].

In theory, there's no special reason why a Federation starship of the 23 or 24th century could not travel back or forth to any time period as they please, other than maybe the Temporal Prime Directive.

Other special considerations would include the use of artifacts such as the Guardian of Forever, and the Orb of Time.

Also, the 29th and 31st century Federation have (will have?) very sophisticated time ships, which have the ability to transport anyone or anything anywhere and when in the Galaxy.

They haven't gone more than a few thousand years in either direction if I remember correctly, but the Daleks and Time Lords have battled across millions upon millions of years in the same sort of fight. It's a bigger fish entirely.

No one from either the 29th or 31st centuries ever stated their full capabilities. We might guess at it from the timeline seen correcting itself in ST:ENT's "Stormfront, Part II", which indicates at least thousands of years of Earth's history. But the really impressive abilities are the demonstated capability to literally transport anywhere and when with what appears to be no more than a transporter in addition to timeships.

So the Daleks being a major time travel-based power might attract the attentions of those time frames of the Federation, as well as the other Temporal Cold War factions. Things could get very messy as a result.

It's quite possible, but the Daleks did beat down several other time-travel capable organisations on its way up the ladder. The Sontarans, Rutans and Autons all showed some impressive time travel capabilities; the Daleks on the other hand were a match for an organisation that rewrote the laws of physics on a whim.

Er, the Rutans and the Sontarans were at war with each other for millions of years apparently, so I don't know if that is a good example of their true capabilties.

As for those factions being "beat down", are you sure you're not mistaking the Constructors of Destiny (The Mad Mind, in particular) for the Daleks in the Millenium War?

The Galactic Empire, for all that Wars fans like to wank it ship number and power-wise, has a distinct lack of temporal travel capability, which puts them at a significant disadvantage here.

They do have it. By standing in one place for two seconds, they've travelled two seconds forwards in time. :P But that's just a joke, really; they have no real temporal capacity unless you just remove the temporal limiters on their ships which turn hyperdrives into time machines due to the ICS being allowed in this debate.

As the rest of the EU, never mind the movies and their novelizations never really mention the possibility of time travel, then it has to be excluded. This does not mean, however, that the GE couldn't learn to make use of the 24th century Federation time travel techniques.

If that is not enough, then certainly other much greater powers in the Milky Way won't care much for the Daleks showing up on their turf. The Voth and Borg among them. So if this conflict flares out into a true galactic conflict, things most definitely will get messy.
-Mike

The Voth and Borg are nothing compared to the Daleks. The Daleks have canonically conquered an entire galactic cluster, destroyed a whole galaxy and done lots of non-temporal damaging stuff that makes them a force to be reckoned with. Hell, the Dalek ships have primary weapons that can destroy planets with single shots. (Dalek Empire, War of the Daleks.)

The Voth have shown some fairly impressive capabilities, such as being able to use a transporter on such a large scale that it can be considered a weapon in it's own right, and their soldiers use personal phase-cloaks that largely render them immune to direct attacks and observation. That is a capability that neither the Borg, nor the Daleks possess.

Also, the Daleks are not without their weaknesses, which was amply demonstrated during their long stalemate with the Movellans, and the Movellans were able to create a virus that could penetrate the Dalek casings (at least those particular models of Dalek), and kill significant numbers of them in the process.

It'll be messy, but it's heavily stacked in favour of the Daleks due to their very nature.

The Dalek's "nature", is not as completely wanked out as you make it out to be. The only war where the Daleks even seems to be that powerful is the as yet unseen war between them and the Time Lords.
-Mike

[Roondar]

Well, I'm not sure about wank but I do know that the Daleks thought they could destroy the TARDIS. Probably because they wiped out the Time Lords eventually.

For reference, we have on-screen evidence the TARDIS has ludicrous power handling capabilities. Case in point: the Doctor 'burns up a supernova' just to say goodbye to Rose, he refers -during that speech- to the impossibility of them getting back to each other not in terms of it being impossible, but that him using the TARDIS for that would 'tear both universes apart'.

Note he didn't say the TARDIS -and old, obsolete Timelord design- couldn't do it. He merely said he wouldn't because it would destroy two universes.

Now, I'm no fan of such insane powers in Sci-Fi (though I still love Dr. Who) but lets not assume the Daleks, which ultimately defeated the Time Lords, can't at least equal these powers.

[Mike DiCenso]

I think you have to be careful in assuming that the Daleks on a one-to-one basis were equal to or better than a Time Lord in TARDIS. What could have been equally the case is the Daleks just throwing overwhelming numbers of themselves at the Time Lords.

As it was, both sides effectively wiped each other out, with only a few notable exceptions. So it's not like the Daleks actually won anything out of the Time War conflict.
-Mike

[GStone]

In theory, there's no special reason why a Federation starship of the 23 or 24th century could not travel back or forth to any time period as they please, other than maybe the Temporal Prime Directive.

They did slingshot around a star deliberately in TOS: Assignment: Earth and went back to 1968 for a purely historical research study of the time period 'to find out how our planet survived desperate problems in the year 1968'.

I guess that any time travel activity that involved with not messing with history or making sure that the Federation survived would be acceptable. In fact, First Contact is one such example. If Temporal Investigations prevented the E-E from going back into the past, as well as the borg, Seven wouldn't have known about it to mention it in Voyager. And they didn't prevent the E-E from opening a temporal vortex to return to their present.

Also, in DS9, Temporal Investigations did investigate the DS9 crew going back to the TOS era via the orb of time in DS9: Trials and Tribble-ations and concluded that it was an acceptable time travel occurance, though they didn't know that tribbles were brought to the future.

Also, in DS9: Little Green Men, Nog speaks of Gabriel Bell looking like Sisko, which was initially confirmed by Bashir showing Sisko his image in the historical archives within the Gabriel Bell (of the Bell Riots fame) file in DS9: Past Tense, part 2. And Daniels was given orders to take Archer into the future in ENT: Shockwave 2 because they felt 'the timeline wouldn't be safe if you boarded that Suliban ship'.

There is also the fact that TI didn't stop Admiral Janeway from traveling back in time and getting Voyager home sooner in VOY: Endgame. This stuation, while is often brought up as a reason for tech removal by the TI people, does show they didn't stop her, though they did bring Voyager back to the delta quadrent in VOY: Future's End, part 2 instead of either leaving them in the past at Earth or at Earth in the future.

I would also guess that if they get accidentally thrown ito another time and prevent or undo the 'exposure' done, it's deemed acceptable, even when it ends up letting Starfleet to learn about time travel, it'd be okay, too, because that's what happened in TOS: Tomorrow is Yesterday, as it did in [Edit: DS9]: Trials and Tribble-ations and the undercover klingon operative with the orb of time.

But, they also will make allowances for people from the past to show up in the future. There was Dr. Gillian Taylor in The Voyage Home and Berlinghoff Rasmussen in TNG: A Matter of Time. TI also didn't stop the 26th century historian from traveling to the 22nd century and to Earth, where Rasmussen killed him and took his stuff in an attempt to change history by grabbing things from the 24th century. We do know that it seems to be standard procedure to make one final time travel event to stop numerous time travel incidents, such as what happened with Braxton and Seven in VOY: Relativity.

Does anyone remember what the ep was that Seven said she knew of the E-E going back in time to stop the borg from preventing first contact with the vulcan's? She was in the hall with, I think Harry and someone else, and there was a situation happening and people were going all over the place in that scene.

[GStone]

The Galactic Empire, for all that Wars fans like to wank it ship number and power-wise, has a distinct lack of temporal travel capability, which puts them at a significant disadvantage here.

They do have it. By standing in one place for two seconds, they've travelled two seconds forwards in time. :P But that's just a joke, really; they have no real temporal capacity unless you just remove the temporal limiters on their ships which turn hyperdrives into time machines due to the ICS being allowed in this debate.

As the rest of the EU, never mind the movies and their novelizations never really mention the possibility of time travel, then it has to be excluded. This does not mean, however, that the GE couldn't learn to make use of the 24th century Federation time travel techniques.

If we were to take the 'temporal limiters' from the RotS ICS to be true, would their removal really make it a time traveling device? The thing is called a staiss field, so that those inside age like those in normal space in the rest of the galaxy. It makes hyperdrives out to be more like temporal accelerators, making you age quicker.

If that is not enough, then certainly other much greater powers in the Milky Way won't care much for the Daleks showing up on their turf. The Voth and Borg among them. So if this conflict flares out into a true galactic conflict, things most definitely will get messy.
-Mike

The Voth and Borg are nothing compared to the Daleks. The Daleks have canonically conquered an entire galactic cluster, destroyed a whole galaxy and done lots of non-temporal damaging stuff that makes them a force to be reckoned with. Hell, the Dalek ships have primary weapons that can destroy planets with single shots. (Dalek Empire, War of the Daleks.)

The Voth have shown some fairly impressive capabilities, such as being able to use a transporter on such a large scale that it can be considered a weapon in it's own right, and their soldiers use personal phase-cloaks that largely render them immune to direct attacks and observation. That is a capability that neither the Borg, nor the Daleks possess.

Also, the Daleks are not without their weaknesses, which was amply demonstrated during their long stalemate with the Movellans, and the Movellans were able to create a virus that could penetrate the Dalek casings (at least those particular models of Dalek), and kill significant numbers of them in the process.

It'll be messy, but it's heavily stacked in favour of the Daleks due to their very nature.

The Dalek's "nature", is not as completely wanked out as you make it out to be. The only war where the Daleks even seems to be that powerful is the as yet unseen war between them and the Time Lords.
-Mike

Well, if we bring the borg into this, we have VOY: Shattered that shows that they have some measure of scanning different times. From the asstrometrics lab, they were able to scan the different parts of the ship and see what time periods they were at. Also, in that ep, it's mentioned that they have regular experience with chroniton fields to maintain temporal synch with the different parts of borg ships when going transwarp and other such things. I could see someone saying to the borg 'make chroniton land mines to throw them out of temporal synch or disrupt their temporal energy device emissions when they try to temporal shift in'.

But, is temporal shifting on one's own a capability of most Daleks or was that for special ones? I can only think of 2 Daleks recently that could do the emergency temporal shift.

But, I wonder how well their tubules would stand up against Dalek shields and armor. For the shields, it might be what they do for force fields and weapons fire: they adapt to the energy. I'm not sure how they get past solid metal though, since nanites are about the size of blood cells.

[Roondar]

But, is temporal shifting on one's own a capability of most Daleks or was that for special ones? I can only think of 2 Daleks recently that could do the emergency temporal shift.

Considering that all of the surviving Daleks where present at the building in New York, methinks at least those could do it. It's not improbable to assume more could do it tho - they clearly had the technology to do it.

Anyhoo, you don't want to start that argument (technology being limited to those showing the usage on screen): only a handful of starfleet ships have ever showed the actual capacity to timetravel themselves ;)

(Besides, it's not like timetravel is the only Dalek trick. They also managed to hide inbetween universes altogether and hide a ten million ship fleet from well, all the timelords)

As to the Borg breaching Dalek defenses: that is out in the open. There is no way of knowing wether or not Dalek shields are comparable to what Starfleet uses. However, we do know that Daleks can survive in a vacuum so it's unlikely that the Borg probes can readilly assimilate them.

[GStone]

But, is temporal shifting on one's own a capability of most Daleks or was that for special ones? I can only think of 2 Daleks recently that could do the emergency temporal shift.

Considering that all of the surviving Daleks where present at the building in New York, methinks at least those could do it. It's not improbable to assume more could do it tho - they clearly had the technology to do it.

You mean the one where it's after the depression? I think that was 3. If you're talking about when Torchwood was trying to make 'ghosts' appear, I thought that was in England.

(Besides, it's not like timetravel is the only Dalek trick. They also managed to hide inbetween universes altogether and hide a ten million ship fleet from well, all the timelords)

Wasn't that with using timelord 'bigger on the inside' tech?

As to the Borg breaching Dalek defenses: that is out in the open. There is no way of knowing wether or not Dalek shields are comparable to what Starfleet uses.

Well, in the BoBW 2 parter, it was rotating resonance frequencies that was preventing the borg from adapting to the E-D's weapons for a time. Even if Dalek shields aren't continuum distortions based on gravitational energy, the shields are still made of energy and all energy has a quantum resonance frequency. If I remember correctly, the bullets fired at Dalek shields by the guards when the last Doctor was around melted or gave the appearance of melting. It might be some contained, intense heat shield. It might have been a disintegrating shield. But, regardless of the method, we have seen borg shields keeping back brute force energy. The deflector in BoBW channeled the warp power all at once, but with Picard's knowledge, they had adapated their shields beforehand.

The deflector may emit continuum distortions, but the blast was brute force. We know this because it is visible. The continuum distortions from Fed tech is only visible when something impacts it. They have never been shown to glow when something doesn't hit it. There are even times when we know the deflector buffers g forces and we still don't see the continuum distortions it makes (when they're at warp, for instance). In BoBW, the deflector glowed and the entire length of the emissions glowed with the same brightness.

We know the implants for drones lets them pass through force fields, so I'd image they'd extend the field to be around the tubules.

However, we do know that Daleks can survive in a vacuum so it's unlikely that the Borg probes can readilly assimilate them.

Why would a vacuum defense stave off assimilation?

[Roondar]

But, is temporal shifting on one's own a capability of most Daleks or was that for special ones? I can only think of 2 Daleks recently that could do the emergency temporal shift.

Considering that all of the surviving Daleks where present at the building in New York, methinks at least those could do it. It's not improbable to assume more could do it tho - they clearly had the technology to do it.

You mean the one where it's after the depression? I think that was 3. If you're talking about when Torchwood was trying to make 'ghosts' appear, I thought that was in England.

I mean the one after the depression. There where three Daleks present so at least these three had the technology. And since Daleks are continously shown as a timetravelling species I don't consider it to be too much of a stretch to assume this is just part of what later-day Daleks where capable of.

(Besides, it's not like timetravel is the only Dalek trick. They also managed to hide inbetween universes altogether and hide a ten million ship fleet from well, all the timelords)

Wasn't that with using timelord 'bigger on the inside' tech?

No, that was just the prison. The prison was inside the null-ship (or whatever it was called). The part where they put the ship itself in between two universes and later opened up the rift to one of them and moved back out was entirely done by the Daleks themselves.

As to the Borg breaching Dalek defenses: that is out in the open. There is no way of knowing wether or not Dalek shields are comparable to what Starfleet uses.

Well, in the BoBW 2 parter, it was rotating resonance frequencies that was preventing the borg from adapting to the E-D's weapons for a time. Even if Dalek shields aren't continuum distortions based on gravitational energy, the shields are still made of energy and all energy has a quantum resonance frequency. If I remember correctly, the bullets fired at Dalek shields by the guards when the last Doctor was around melted or gave the appearance of melting. It might be some contained, intense heat shield. It might have been a disintegrating shield. But, regardless of the method, we have seen borg shields keeping back brute force energy. The deflector in BoBW channeled the warp power all at once, but with Picard's knowledge, they had adapated their shields beforehand.

The deflector may emit continuum distortions, but the blast was brute force. We know this because it is visible. The continuum distortions from Fed tech is only visible when something impacts it. They have never been shown to glow when something doesn't hit it. There are even times when we know the deflector buffers g forces and we still don't see the continuum distortions it makes (when they're at warp, for instance). In BoBW, the deflector glowed and the entire length of the emissions glowed with the same brightness.

We know the implants for drones lets them pass through force fields, so I'd image they'd extend the field to be around the tubules.

For all we know Dalek shields use temporal technology. Or use actual energy instead of particles. Or are, conversely very tight particlefields. Or a million other things which may, or may not have quantum resonance frequencies. In other words, we can't be sure they use energy in the same way, if they even use energy at all or whatever it is they use.

So no, without further information regarding Dalek shielding technology we can't actually say anything about their effectiveness vs. Borg technology.

Also note that claiming the Borg can adapt to any type of shielding and any energy level of shielding (or otherwise) is a) shown to be false in various Startrek episodes and b) a no limits fallacacy.

However, we do know that Daleks can survive in a vacuum so it's unlikely that the Borg probes can readilly assimilate them.

Why would a vacuum defense stave off assimilation?

I was refering to their armour suit being vacuumproof (as well as obviously not made out of something pierced easilly by other means) i.e. not letting air or other substances through. The Borg use these nanoprobes for assimilation, which so far have never seen to be able to work without direct contact with the skin of the subject. Hence I'd say a tin can without openings is plenty of defense.

[GStone]

I mean the one after the depression. There where three Daleks present so at least these three had the technology. And since Daleks are continously shown as a timetravelling species I don't consider it to be too much of a stretch to assume this is just part of what later-day Daleks where capable of.

In the ep before this one in question, I only remember one that could emergency temporal shift. All the others were drawn to the thing that the Doctor and Rose built that used the Torchwood equipment. Though, it might have been an ability given to the other 2 at some point. But, I still might be wrong and all of them could temporal shift. However, that makes me wonder. If they all could, why didn't they do that when the Eccleston Doctor yelled he was coming for them?

For all we know Dalek shields use temporal technology.

And the borg do have experience with temporal sensors and chroniton fields.

Or use actual energy instead of particles. Or are, conversely very tight particlefields.

Energy is made up of energy and particles are made up of energy.

Or a million other things which may, or may not have quantum resonance frequencies.

Typically, if something is gonna interact with a particular universe, it's gonna involve energy, which will need a quantum resonance for interacting with that specific universe.

In other words, we can't be sure they use energy in the same way...

Which wouldn't be required.

Also note that claiming the Borg can adapt to any type of shielding and any energy level of shielding (or otherwise) is a) shown to be false in various Startrek episodes and b) a no limits fallacacy.

I was speaking of types of shielding. Trek force fields in corridors, for instance, as well as those used in the brig, are walls of electrons. Seven was shown to walk right through when her implants reactivated. We've seen borg cube shields block the brute force energy attack of the E-D's deflector dish spitting out the warp core energy in one enormous blast and they weren't bothered because they knew how to protect themselves because of what Picard knew. We've also seen them adapt to the particle streams fired by phasers. And I forget the ep, but the holodoc said the tubules could get through any known energy field or material at the time.

The only one that's been shown to have a real effectiveness against the borg is 8472 and nanobots, but only because of the speed that their immune systems attack the nanobots.

I was refering to their armour suit being vacuumproof (as well as obviously not made out of something pierced easilly by other means) i.e. not letting air or other substances through. The Borg use these nanoprobes for assimilation, which so far have never seen to be able to work without direct contact with the skin of the subject. Hence I'd say a tin can without openings is plenty of defense.

I don't think an unopened tin can would be good, since we've known them to alter solid material into borg pieces, which is probably how they get through solid barriers.