The Culture versus the UFP & Allies

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Who wins, then?

Federation
4
24%
Culture
13
76%
 
Total votes: 17

Roondar
Jedi Knight
Posts: 462
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:03 pm

Post by Roondar » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:56 am

GStone wrote:
Roondar wrote:First off: Hi to all. I'm new here :)
Howdy. It's been a while.
Hi :)
Despite all the -sorry to use the term- McGuyverisms of the Startrek shows, Starfleet has never shown the ability to create entirely new weapons in under a day or so. Defenses against the Borg took them literally months, if not years to build and they knew what they where fighting in the Borg and also knew what would have to be different for them to have a chance. And even so, they still couldn't get it quite right even in the years that passed between the first Borg contact and the events in First Contact (where they won by Picards chance knowledge, they where busy losing till he showed up).
Designing weapons and defenses against the adapting capabilities of the borg is different from what the Feds are up against here.
Indeed, this is much, much harder for them to do - the Borg weapons and shields where just 'crank the photons to 11' and 'change my shield frequencies at random'. This is a whole different ballgame and kind of my point isn't it?
The Federation, by chance, discovers a weak spot in the Culture ship before all the fighting starts (they'd have too, by the time the fighting starts they'd allready have lost because of the speed of the Culture).
Beforehand is not necessary.
After the fighting starts there is no more Federation. Thats the point of my post - the Culture is so incredibly powerful in weapons that waiting until they start attacking makes it too late to win.
Then they'd have to design, engineer, test, build and distribute several thousands of a totally new -not too mention paradigm shattering- weapon*.
It's not really paradigm shifting. It isn't an entirely new technology. Just a twist on weapon usage. It's no more applied science than the self-replicating, cloaked mines that were put at the bajoran wormhole.
Using it as a weapon is the paradigm shift. I'm 100% sure that using a self-replicating minefield wasn't thought up in a day either. (stupid idea anyway, your mines would get lower yield with each attempt to get through. You'd better just replace the mines yourself or have them move around on their own power)
And even if they do manage to do all that they still have the range problems discussed at length before and the problem of Culture ships doing their fighting in microseconds instead of seconds/minutes.
And if some of the Culture ships (or just one) got blown up, you don't think they'd come and investigate and not with just long range sensors?
They'd have to get in range before they can actually fire. The Culture ship can -and considering the scenario will- destroy them before they do. And even if they do get in range, they can just destroy them then ages before the fire command is even fully spoken aboard whatever Federation ship is present.

Again, that was the point. Long range sensors would show the Federation this: we send in a ship to look at an anomaly. They suddenly vanished. Hey, what the !%$@, a starsystem just vanished. OMG, 10.000 of our ships got destroyed. And that's just the first ohh, second or so of combat. You've not thought this trough - the Culture ship won't stand still for the Federation to scan them. They'll be busy blowing them to a gazillion pieces (read the scenario, they're not going to be nice about it).
*) Remember, the ship has 90.000 drones. They have to be dealt with as well. One ship with one weapon will not be enough.
If one side can't touch the other, one ship can be enough, but it'd take time. Mini 'drones' working independently by creating more can compensate for some of the deficiency.
You're assuming that a) one side can't touch the other, which you did not prove one iota and b) that the side which can't be touched is the Federation side.

You're also assuming that the enemy, given the years needed to hunt each and every single one of them down would stand still and not figure out what is going on. Considering the Culture's minds capabilities I find that very, very, very dishonest of you.

Much more likely they figure out what is going on before the Federation can destroy even one ship, considering how intelligent they're shown to be.
And we're not just talking about some brilliant soul like Data or LaForge comming up with a single device. We're talking some brilliant soul like them comming up with the device, making sure Starfleet knows about it, having Starfleet build and distribute the stuff, praying the Culture ship lays dormant during that time and does not note what is going on, the device actually working as planned (which remains to be seen, no proof has been given by GStone that this device he has thought up actually works. It's just a guess after all), the launched device not being intercepted, detected as a threat or otherwise neutralized, the device hitting the proper spot on the ship and having enough yield, etc, etc, etc.
1. Since when would all of this have to be thought of before the Culture ships come through the wormhole? All that'd truly be required beforehand is someone experimenting with the temporal phasing subspace fields. Given how much research is done in the Federation, odds are in favor of someone doing this research or some variation of it.
It would have to be thought up before the Culture attacks. Which is after they come out of the wormhole. Given how fast the Culture moves and how clear their orders are I don't think it's reasonable to assume that'll take even a day.

As too Federation research, we've seen the results -and more importantly, time frames- for that: it doesn't always produce results that work and it takes years. The Federation had no need for these weapons before, they see similar weapon/defense technologies, such as subspace weaponry and phase cloaking to be illegal, outlawed or at the very least stuff-that-is-bad etc. You're suggesting they're already halfway there at present. That would be flying against canon evidence (they never used such weapons before and phase cloaks are illegal and hence not in stock).
2. They jurry rigged the comm signal and their shields (which are graviton based space-time continuum distortions) are easily set to various phase frequencies. Given the simplicity of how it works and the application of known science, you aren't giving the Feds enough credit.
Ah yes, and how long did it take them to figure that out? Right, hours, days or even longer. In the case of the shortest time frames all that happened during a crisis (not before) and usually while they where being shot at.

See, that is why it's so ludicrous to consider them figuring it out. They're not attempting to do this in a vacuum, they are attempting to do it while being attacked by people who can one-shot them in under 10 microseconds a ship.

Again, you make the mistake of thinking I'm not giving the Federation credit. I *am* giving them credit - given time they have a shot at making the device. Point is however, they don't actually have time. Which is a good part of the reason this whole thing falls apart.
The amount of failure levels for just the device working are enormous allready. And that is all assuming they actually manage to get it in time. Which is even more of a problem.
All of these are requirement/failure levels that are needlessly added in. You're overthinking this.
No they are not and no I'm not. I'm being realistic. Your scenario assumes the Feds get all the breaks they need and the Culture act like -forgive me the expression- a bunch of dumbasses who don't realize what is going on until it's far, far too late. You're not even considering the possibility of the Culture one-upping the Feds and figuring out what they're trying to do, nor are you even considering that the Culture, given their science level, might just see through all this phase-cloak nonsense. You're not even considering that the Culture ship might just move out of the way, shoot the weapon down or just plainly destroy the Fed forces before they can launch.

In other words: you are assuming the Feds can operate in a vacuum and have perfect intelligence to boot, while the reality is they have about (and this is being nice) 30 seconds to figure it out after the Culture comes through the wormhole and have no idea what the hell is going on.
delivering the 'bomb' so to speak is practically impossible and all of this assumes that a) the Culture ship does nothing, detects nothing and is stupid enough to assume the 'mysterious bomb-like-devices' being thrown at it are no threat at all, despite the Culture's obvious abilities to actually scan, gather information and correlate that information to see what is going on.
I'm not saying they'd get the right targeting placements immediately off the bat. There'd be some trial and error, but it isn't entirely impossible. First, we've seen recalibration of sensors to pick up on things with different phase variances than what's in 'normal space' for Trek. Take Scientific Method. Given that they would be sending energy from the known and altered phase state they take on and know what they changed from, it would not be hard to come up with a phase variance to scan normal space to see what's going on, while staying temporally cloaked.
Temporally cloaked. Last time I saw the Feds that was not one of their core technologies. Care to explain how they managed to make such a cloak in the ridiculously small timeframe they have?

And no, an hour is way too long. Several orders of magnitude actually.

Besides, you are still flat-out refusing to accept that the Culture ship might just figure out 'hey, something is wrong' and do any of a million things they could to get the problem sorted. Such as finding the ship regardless of it's cloak*, moving out of the way, etc etc etc.

Your basic argument is still 'lalalala, Feds can do whatever they want and have allll the time in the universe, Culture is dumb... They can't see, hear, or do ANYTHING to stop them'. That is plain dishonest of you.

*) Remember, you are only assuming the Culture's phase-scanning is different from what the Feds can do. You're also only assuming that the Federation scanners could see a Culture ship in hyperspace. And not considering that if they can by the technology you're about to suggest for it that this would mean the Culture (being capable of the same) would actually see straight through your cloak.
Also, look at all the times when they've scanned the phase variances of weapons, shields, astronomy phenom of the week #654 over and over again. How things, like cosmic strings and warp signatures, have subspace (phase variance) characteristics that are a part of every day scanning techniques.

The Culture has also shown the capabilities of scanning phase variances of what is presumably the phase variances for the relationships between older and younger universes. But, even if you assumed that there is a strong similarity between these 2 types of phase variances, there are also stark contrasts. For example, the phase variance of Scientific Method or Time's Arrow is not an entirely new universe, like the grid of the Culture's hyperspace zone. It's more like the domain of the aliens from Schisms that were abducting the E-D's crew. A sub-universe of one main universe. Scanning the not sub-universe version of phase variances is a capability not shown by the Culture.
Right. And because the Culture is dumb and slow, they can't figure it out. However, the Federation is smart and fast and not only figures it out in under an hour but manages to implement it without trouble at all. /sarcasm

Listen GStone, I'll say it again - you are assuming a vacuum. Even in the episodes you named it took the Federation a whole lot more time to figure all these things out than they would have in this case. They have never shown this ability as a controlled, shipwide technology that is used for anything even remotely resembling what you suggest. Especially considering that Picard et al would rather die than let the Federation have phase-cloaks or similar devices.


To recap:

You're assuming the Federation will understand what is going on before it hits them. You're assuming the Culture will take ages to deploy it's forces - which is not needed at all. You're assuming the Federation will go for full force straight away and not try to send in diplomats first. You're assuming the Federation command chain is instant and communication Federation wide is likely instant. Your assuming the Federation gives up it's moral guidelines - which they where willing to die for. You're ignoring the reality of Federation weapons/defenses design - all examples there have them taking months, if not years to figure out a new weapon. You're ignoring the reality of Federation FTL travel speeds and scanning speeds. You're ignoring the limits of what the Federation actually has shown of this technology you propose to use. You're even ignoring that more often than not this type of technology fails to work as intended, has unforeseen sideeffects, or just plainly breaks down at the worst possible time.

And that is without me going into all the things you're assuming the enemy to not do or not be capable of. You're not even considering the Culture to be able to even get a hunch of what it going on.

Like I said earlier, that attitude is a wee bit dishonest.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:53 am

Right, as the rest of the post points out its own stupidity. I mean, nuclear fusion reactors require deuterium to function, and that is one convenient fact to ignore.
GStone wrote:Then, provide evidence lineguns, fields and effectors can touch temporally phased objects.
Right; fields and lineguns work off of gravity. Effectors and CREWS (CREWS are really powerful gigaton-level lasers) work off of EM radiation. This is going to be a basic physics lesson;

Data could see normally while he was temporally phased, that means that light can in some way interact with a temporally phased object or a temporally phased object can interact with light. Light is EM radiation; as such effectors and CREWS, while slightly muted by the temporal phasing, shall very much affect a phase-cloaked ship. The Culture also uses effectors for its sensors, which can detect what you had for lunch the other day from across the sector. (The Player of Games; I provided the quote earlier.) As such; the Federation can be detected and effectorised.

Data did not float helplessly around the room while he was temporally phased. That means that he is in some way affected by gravity, and while he was phased; he didn't simply pass through the floor and collapse into the centre of the planet. This also shows that dense-enough objects can affect a temporally-phased character. As such; lineguns and fields which both work on gravity can be used to affect a temporally phased vessel, as can sufficiently dense objects.

The Culture is smart enough to realise this. You lose.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:21 pm

Temporally cloaked. Last time I saw the Feds that was not one of their core technologies. Care to explain how they managed to make such a cloak in the ridiculously small timeframe they have?

And no, an hour is way too long. Several orders of magnitude actually.
To be fair; Culture ROU cruising speeds are somewhat closer to something like 87,660 times the speed of light, so the Federation does have about a tenth of a year before the ships arrive. However, the Sleeper Service itself can move at 233,000 times the speed of light without damaging its engines according to Excession.

That is thus closer to about twelve days to cross the entire Federation.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:53 pm

Roondar wrote:Indeed, this is much, much harder for them to do - the Borg weapons and shields where just 'crank the photons to 11' and 'change my shield frequencies at random'. This is a whole different ballgame and kind of my point isn't it?
It's different, but whether or not it's harder depends on who is involved in the device's creation.
Using it as a weapon is the paradigm shift. I'm 100% sure that using a self-replicating minefield wasn't thought up in a day either. (stupid idea anyway, your mines would get lower yield with each attempt to get through. You'd better just replace the mines yourself or have them move around on their own power)
1. They've had the gravimetric warhead technology for some time; enough time to put it into production for ships. The difference would be like taking a missle from a fighter jet and putting it on an unmanned aerial vehicle. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I wouldn't call this a paradigm shift. To me PSs are much more involved.

2. Why would you say it took more than a day? For the viewer, it took a little screen time and a commercial break. How long that break was, I don't know, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it must be at least a couple days.
They'd have to get in range before they can actually fire. The Culture ship can -and considering the scenario will- destroy them before they do. And even if they do get in range, they can just destroy them then ages before the fire command is even fully spoken aboard whatever Federation ship is present.
Why are you assuming the ship would need to rephase with normal space? Data didn't need to when he sent his comm signal to the away team. That was the whole point. And that's the point of this scenario.
Again, that was the point. Long range sensors would show the Federation this: we send in a ship to look at an anomaly. They suddenly vanished. Hey, what the !%$@, a starsystem just vanished. OMG, 10.000 of our ships got destroyed. And that's just the first ohh, second or so of combat. You've not thought this trough - the Culture ship won't stand still for the Federation to scan them. They'll be busy blowing them to a gazillion pieces (read the scenario, they're not going to be nice about it).
I have thought this through. What you're doing is assuming that there couldn't be any active research at the time of the wormhole opening. As well as any experiment currently switched to 'on'.
You're also assuming that the enemy, given the years needed to hunt each and every single one of them down would stand still
No, I'm counting on them not standing still.
and not figure out what is going on.
There are limitations to what The Culture knows. They have never demonstrated the capabaility of scanning the phase variance ranges involved in Time's Arrow's temporal phasing. The most they have even shown is the phase variances for older and younger universes, which is different from the ranges used by the Srivani in Scientific Method. They were still in the same universe.

What the Culture has shown able to do is transplant between universes, which could be likened to moving between normal space and the tertiary subspace manifold that had the Solanagen based lizard people in Schisms. The closest the Culture has ever shown to using the phase varaince ranges used by many, including the Srivani, could be their use of hyperspace. However, they haven't show even a hint that this version is ever used for any other reason than FTL travel. But, it still really isn't the same. Otherwise, they'd disappear, while traveling at sublight speeds.
Much more likely they figure out what is going on before the Federation can destroy even one ship, considering how intelligent they're shown to be.
Not necessarily. Time travel exists in Trek, yet Banks outlawed it for his universe. That itself is a limitation to what Minds know. It's a technology they've not gotten right. They don't understand how it can work. If their sensors were anywhere close to the thing that uses subspace fields to temporally phase, the best they can do is detect that something disappeared and gravitational energy is just appearing. Since they don't use technology that requires Srivani style phasing, their sensors wouldn't be calibrated to it.

But, if they really are so smart, the Minds would have figured out a way to fight the idrians without loosing anybody on their side. That didn't happen.
As too Federation research, we've seen the results -and more importantly, time frames- for that: it doesn't always produce results that work and it takes years. The Federation had no need for these weapons before, they see similar weapon/defense technologies, such as subspace weaponry and phase cloaking to be illegal, outlawed or at the very least stuff-that-is-bad etc. You're suggesting they're already halfway there at present. That would be flying against canon evidence (they never used such weapons before and phase cloaks are illegal and hence not in stock).
Oh, god. Not this reasoning. 'Yes, they'll let themselves get killed by not doing something that's against the law because the law must be followed at all times because there can't ever be any exceptions'.

Let's take a real world example. In the US, killing someone is illegal, but there are exceptions: in the defense of yourself, in defense of others. Do you honestly think that they'd say 'I'd rather die than break the law'?

And you say I'm being dishonest.
Ah yes, and how long did it take them to figure that out? Right, hours, days or even longer. In the case of the shortest time frames all that happened during a crisis (not before) and usually while they where being shot at.
Did you miss the part where I said it'd be likely that there would research into what happened with the tech in Time's Arrow? It wouldn't be a repeat of what happened. That's contradictory to what I'm saying and makes no sense. The Federation can't use cloaks, but that doesn't stop them from possessing one. How do you think they keep up with the romulans' advancements in claoking technology?

Besides, this isn't the same phase cloak that was used in Pegasus. Data left the area of the subspace field that made him temporally phased. He unphased only after he went through the portal, which was standard operating procedure for it.

After making contact with the Cytherians, why aren't all Fed ships whipping around the whole galaxy or more? Voyager shouldn't have had any trouble getting back. If you assume the Feds are not idiots, what was gotten from the Cytherians was studied to further understand their own knowledge via research. It'd be the same reason for studying the temporal phasing device.

This could even be a tech that leads to the ability to communicating with different time periods. Data was in the same physical space, but in a different time.

I could easily stretch my argument to include the ship that's been temporally phased (after seeing that the whole Federation is wiped out) sends a message to the past, giving them enough time to prepare for the Culture ships and still keeping it in line with the technological development of the main Trek timeline. But, I'm not doing that because I don't think it's necessary.
No they are not and no I'm not. I'm being realistic. Your scenario assumes the Feds get all the breaks they need and the Culture act like -forgive me the expression- a bunch of dumbasses who don't realize what is going on until it's far, far too late.
Ship disappears/gravitational energy suddenly appears with their ship parts. Their sensors are incapable of determining the source because it has never show the capability. Their range of phase variances are different than what is being used.
You're not even considering the possibility of the Culture one-upping the Feds and figuring out what they're trying to do, nor are you even considering that the Culture, given their science level, might just see through all this phase-cloak nonsense.
1. There is a knowledge the Culture lacks. If one doesn't exist, how many others don't for them? I don't know, but it leaves open the possibility. Intuiting solutions/reasons only goes so far. The possibility was considered and rejected based on the evidence.
2. Culture sensors are not calibrated to the phase variance ranges used by the Srivani and others. To assume they'd be able to from the get go is jumping the gun. With their current tech level, this possiblity was considered and rejected.

And if we think it is possible to recalibrate them, just how long is it gonna take? And there's nothing stopping the temporally phased ship from switching its temporal phase alignment around. They do it regularly for shields, phasers, etc.
You're not even considering that the Culture ship might just move out of the way, shoot the weapon down or just plainly destroy the Fed forces before they can launch.
Given that the only thing detected after the initial disappearance would be the appearance of the gravitational energy, the point in space-time can vary. So, they have no way of knowing where 'out of range' is. And if you mean launch the ship, Data didn't need to be launched anywhere.
In other words: you are assuming the Feds can operate in a vacuum and have perfect intelligence to boot, while the reality is they have about (and this is being nice) 30 seconds to figure it out after the Culture comes through the wormhole and have no idea what the hell is going on.
I'm going on the assumption right now that you missed (whatever the reason) where I said there would be some trail and error. However, I am gonna assume that you do know that I said it wasn't necessary beforehand to have the weapon designed before the wormhole appeared. Trial and error can lead to figuring out that gravitational energy would work.
delivering the 'bomb' so to speak is practically impossible and all of this assumes that a) the Culture ship does nothing, detects nothing and is stupid enough to assume the 'mysterious bomb-like-devices' being thrown at it are no threat at all, despite the Culture's obvious abilities to actually scan, gather information and correlate that information to see what is going on.
If you had kept up with the thread, you would have noticed that I was talking of the gravitational energy only that gets unphased, not the delivery system itself. It wasn't necessary for Data's comm badge to unphase to communnicate with the away team.
Temporally cloaked. Last time I saw the Feds that was not one of their core technologies. Care to explain how they managed to make such a cloak in the ridiculously small timeframe they have?
Ugh. First, didn't you see where I said the odds are in their favor for there to be active research on it? Research, where there's already a device built for them to learn from, not one that's jurry rigged when the wormhole opens. Second, it doesn't have to be a core technology.
Besides, you are still flat-out refusing to accept that the Culture ship might just figure out 'hey, something is wrong' and do any of a million things they could to get the problem sorted. Such as finding the ship regardless of it's cloak*, moving out of the way, etc etc etc.
I will not give their sensors capabilities they have never demonstrated before.
Your basic argument is still 'lalalala, Feds can do whatever they want and have allll the time in the universe, Culture is dumb... They can't see, hear, or do ANYTHING to stop them'. That is plain dishonest of you.
I was expecting more from you than this kind of remark. I have explained capabilites and limitations.
*) Remember, you are only assuming the Culture's phase-scanning is different from what the Feds can do.
I have explained the reasoning. Phasing doesn't always mean the same thing. It's too broad a category. Just like FTL travel. There's FTL travel in B5 and Trek. Ooooooh, they must work the same way.
You're also only assuming that the Federation scanners could see a Culture ship in hyperspace.
The description of older/younger universes in the Culture stories reads like the different manifolds/domains of subspace and real space, but I would need more information to be certain. At the moment, it seems very likely however.
And not considering that if they can by the technology you're about to suggest for it that this would mean the Culture (being capable of the same) would actually see straight through your cloak.
Banks outlawed time travel, but Fed ships can do it. Should I give the Culture ships time traveling capabilities? That'd be ridiculous. That'd be like giving the Federation a Death Star SL. It's not their technology.

The Culture has never shown this type of temporal phasing before. It's the same reason you don't say Trek and B5 FTL works on the same principles just because they have FTL capabilities.
Listen GStone, I'll say it again - you are assuming a vacuum.
Before making such a remark, you need to read all of what I have said and remember what it was.
Even in the episodes you named it took the Federation a whole lot more time to figure all these things out than they would have in this case.
This being said in stark contrast to what I have said is in my argument. That is what needs to be reread first.
Especially considering that Picard et al would rather die than let the Federation have phase-cloaks or similar devices.
This is an unsubstantiated claim.
Listen GStone, I'll say it again - you are assuming a vacuum. Even in the episodes you named it took the Federation a whole lot more time to figure all these things out than they would have in this case. They have never shown this ability as a controlled, shipwide technology that is used for anything even remotely resembling what you suggest.

You're ignoring the limits of what the Federation actually has shown of this technology you propose to use. You're even ignoring that more often than not this type of technology fails to work as intended, has unforeseen sideeffects, or just plainly breaks down at the worst possible time.
Let's look at the ep in question:

DATA
Commander, we might be able to
manipulate the synchronic
distortion...

GEORDI
(nodding)
Maybe. If we created a contained
subspace forcefield. But to get a
point zero-zero-four variance,
we'd need an incredibly sensitive
phase discriminator, Data... I
don't think we've got one that
would come close...

DATA
Yes, we do. It is built into my
positronic decompiler.

We also had that cyberneticist that was trying to create a whole army of Datas, but he couldn't quite get the brain to work together as a whole. But, his parts are known to exist. What else is needed? Subspace field generators. What do they have for that? Shields, warp drive, sublight engines, hover tech.

Wide scale, shipwide usage of successful technology application.

The metaphasic shields in Suspicions. It was used on a shuttle first and Geordie had spent time trying to make it shipwide ready, but it wasn't tested before it was used on the E-D in Descent and it worked fine. Also, in The Void, the device used by the several ships that were in the mini-Federation to escape the pull of the Void wasn't tested before it was used and it had to encompass all those ships.

Now, let me say...once again...what this altered version is. The one from the last board used the standard debating rules. This one is a slight variation because of the twist in the OP, but a slight variation of this can be used in the scenario with the main debating rules.

Research currently active. That's the whole damned thing. The odds are in favor of them currently working on it to expand their own knowledge. The fact that within a century or two, there's capabilities of sending messages and images through time indicates that the A/B powers were doing some kind of research.

But, what does that mean? It means that there are already subspace generators set up with phasse discriminators of varying sensitivities. There is also the strong chance that there are multiple places researching this, just as there are several places doing research on the same subject across the globe in real life.

Narsil
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Post by Narsil » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:05 pm

Actually, GStone, to quote the OP:
Said powers must survive the assault from the Sleeper Service by any means necessary, though they aren't given prior warning.

GStone
Starship Captain
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Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:29 pm

Narsil wrote:Right, as the rest of the post points out its own stupidity. I mean, nuclear fusion reactors require deuterium to function, and that is one convenient fact to ignore.
Oh, lord. You know, if you're gonna use that site, make sure you use it wisely. I'll quote from the page and change the style of the text where appropriate:

"With current technology, we can only achieve the temperatures and pressures necessary to make deuterium-tritium fusion possible. Deuterium-deuterium fusion requires higher temperatures that may be possible in the future. Ultimately, deuterium-deuterium fusion will be better because it is easier to extract deuterium from seawater than to make tritium from lithium. Also, deuterium is not radioactive, and deuterium-deuterium reactions will yield more energy."

You don't need deuterium. Any atomic nuclei will do, all the way down to the hydrogen one. Deuterium would be good because it's readily available in seawater, but it isn't the only substance fusion will work with.
Right; fields and lineguns work off of gravity. Effectors and CREWS (CREWS are really powerful gigaton-level lasers) work off of EM radiation. This is going to be a basic physics lesson;
I cringe when you say you're gonna teach a physics lesson.
Data could see normally while he was temporally phased, that means that light can in some way interact with a temporally phased object or a temporally phased object can interact with light. Light is EM radiation; as such effectors and CREWS, while slightly muted by the temporal phasing, shall very much affect a phase-cloaked ship.
Not quite. The energy that is or can act as light will only interact with the temporally phased object if there is enough of an alignment. But, it must be remembered that any temporally phased state may still have a weak interaction with the weapon because there is a potential third state to be considered. What they went to in the ep was a .004 variance, which to get that, needed a very sensitive discriminator. Based on the dialogue in the ep, other variances wouldn't need as sensitive discriminator.
The Culture also uses effectors for its sensors, which can detect what you had for lunch the other day from across the sector. (The Player of Games; I provided the quote earlier.) As such; the Federation can be detected and effectorised.
But, it still doesn't detect the phase variances that people, like the Srivani, use. It can detect what is causing an upset stomach. That doesn't matter.
Data did not float helplessly around the room while he was temporally phased. That means that he is in some way affected by gravity, and while he was phased; he didn't simply pass through the floor and collapse into the centre of the planet. This also shows that dense-enough objects can affect a temporally-phased character.
Nice logic, but it's very flawed. The reasoning assumes that every thing that is temporally phased is at the same variance every time. The .004 would have the same variance as Data, but that isn't so for variances of different numbers.
The Culture is smart enough to realise this. You lose.
If the Culture doesn't realize what I wrote above at their level of advancement, Minds are truly idiots.

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Post by GStone » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:34 pm

Narsil wrote:Actually, GStone, to quote the OP:
Said powers must survive the assault from the Sleeper Service by any means necessary, though they aren't given prior warning.
What's your point? I haven't forgotten it. That's one reason why it's a variation of the thread you started on Newland's board.

Edit: That means they are going about their daily lives, like nothing's wrong. And that includes their continued activities in research by groups such as Federation R&D, those that are independent scientists, etc.

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Post by Narsil » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:04 pm

GStone wrote:Oh, lord. You know, if you're gonna use that site, make sure you use it wisely. I'll quote from the page and change the style of the text where appropriate:

"With current technology, we can only achieve the temperatures and pressures necessary to make deuterium-tritium fusion possible. Deuterium-deuterium fusion requires higher temperatures that may be possible in the future. Ultimately, deuterium-deuterium fusion will be better because it is easier to extract deuterium from seawater than to make tritium from lithium. Also, deuterium is not radioactive, and deuterium-deuterium reactions will yield more energy."

You don't need deuterium. Any atomic nuclei will do, all the way down to the hydrogen one. Deuterium would be good because it's readily available in seawater, but it isn't the only substance fusion will work with.
Then why couldn't the Federation use something else in Demon? Are they truly that fucking dense?
I cringe when you say you're gonna teach a physics lesson.
I cringe whenever you post. The feeling is very much neutral.
Not quite. The energy that is or can act as light will only interact with the temporally phased object if there is enough of an alignment. But, it must be remembered that any temporally phased state may still have a weak interaction with the weapon because there is a potential third state to be considered. What they went to in the ep was a .004 variance, which to get that, needed a very sensitive discriminator. Based on the dialogue in the ep, other variances wouldn't need as sensitive discriminator.
This is just meaningless technobabble; the Federation hasn't ever used this method before or since, and it'd have been immensely useful during the Dominion War.
But, it still doesn't detect the phase variances that people, like the Srivani, use. It can detect what is causing an upset stomach. That doesn't matter.
The Culture's sensors can detect objects through a thousand miles of rock and catalogue every single atom of a planet within a very short period of time. You're assuming they can't match Federation sensors?
Nice logic, but it's very flawed. The reasoning assumes that every thing that is temporally phased is at the same variance every time. The .004 would have the same variance as Data, but that isn't so for variances of different numbers.
Why didn't the Federation ever use it again in combat? I mean, phasing through your enemy's weapons is a damn good excuse to develop a device that can phase your ship. You haven't ever proven that the UFP can develop these devices safely, you have only proven that they can imitate a sum total of one flawed instance. This makes you lose.

You also haven't disproven gravity's effects.
If the Culture doesn't realize what I wrote above at their level of advancement, Minds are truly idiots.
Again, you haven't actually disproven what I've said; you've just claimed something that the Federation has never been shown to do.

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Post by GStone » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:15 pm

Narsil wrote:Then why couldn't the Federation use something else in Demon? Are they truly that fucking dense?
Let's look at the dialogue:

KIM: The ship is grey, Captain. We've cut power to decks four through nine. Replicators, holodecks and all other nonessentials are offline. Remaining systems are operating at twenty percent capacity.
JANEWAY: Tom, how long can you keep us flying?
PARIS: With the deuterium supply this low? Even at one quarter impulse we'll be out of gas inside a week.
JANEWAY: Everyone redouble your efforts. Keep your eyes open for new sources of deuterium. Tuvok, Chakotay, I want recommendations for further methods of conservation. Harry, you and I will give them a hand in geophysics. See if we can't synthesise a substitute fuel. In the meantime, we stay in grey mode. If anybody's got any other ideas, I'm listening.

It isn't that they couldn't use anything else. They do have certain energy level requirements for standard operating mode, but they were looking for alternative fuels. Their main power generator is m/am, not fusion. Their systems are designed around the energy production of a m/am generator, not a fusion generator. M/AM gives off more power than fusion. Don't act like they were on the verge of dying at the time.
I cringe whenever you post. The feeling is very much neutral.
My feeling is nausea.
This is just meaningless technobabble; the Federation hasn't ever used this method before or since, and it'd have been immensely useful during the Dominion War.
1. This is what's called a scientific explanation. All that 'meaningless technobabble' that you constantly bitch about is the detailed description of the situation. If you really could give a physics lesson or any other that deals with science, you would already understand that that was a scientific explanation.

2. Whether it has been used or not is irrelevent and is a line of argument often used by those flailing about.
The Culture's sensors can detect objects through a thousand miles of rock and catalogue every single atom of a planet within a very short period of time. You're assuming they can't match Federation sensors?
Oh, fuck. Point blank, does any of that shit involve the phase variance ranges that are used by many, including the Srivani of Scientific Method?

Fuck No.

If you really are as knowledgable about the Culture stories as you say you are, if the evidence existed, you'd have provided the quote(s) by now.

No one has ever shown me that they can. All people have said is 'they're super smart, so yeah, they probably can'.

That's not good enough. There must be some indication that they can do something. They can't time travel, yet the stupid apes and lizards and goats and giraffes of the Federation in the 24th century have shown they have some capability and understanding of how to do it. We also know that in the Federation's future, they learn how to send video and audio communications through space and time and follow that up with moving ships through space and time across the whole galaxy (and possibly further) and can use a transporter to regularly send people through time and space and integrate the same person that's plucked from different points in a timeline into a single individual.

But, look at the Minds. With all their oversized brains, they have never been able to do that in all their history.

I'd be willing to take indirect evidence. Until it can be provided (direct or indirect), I'm MO.
Why didn't the Federation ever use it again in combat? I mean, phasing through your enemy's weapons is a damn good excuse to develop a device that can phase your ship.
Why it hasn't been seen on screen again doesn't matter. Nothing in the episodes shows that there was anything unsafe with the technology.
You haven't ever proven that the UFP can develop these devices safely, you have only proven that they can imitate a sum total of one flawed instance. This makes you lose.
Time's Arrow I and II. That's my evidence. It was built and used twice and there has never been any evidence that there is anything negative for after effects with the technology. That's my evidence. Now, to continue on this point, you would have to show that Data and the away team couldn't temporally phase with the device...in direct contradiction to the established canon.
You also haven't disproven gravity's effects.
Not all temporal phase variances are the same, as was demonstrated in the episode's dialogue. I'd already disproven your 'theory', as much as it was.
Again, you haven't actually disproven what I've said; you've just claimed something that the Federation has never been shown to do.
[face palm]

Silly me. I forgot Time's Arrow I & II were really nothing more than Doc Crusher's hallucinogenic experiements on the crew because she wanted to have a giant ship wide orgy. She wanted to be the naughty nurse and that's why we saw her dressed the way she did when they supposedly were in the 'hospital'.

They didn't actually go into the past to stop aliens from feeding off the energy of the sick and homeless in Earth's past.

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Post by Anisarian » Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:22 am

GStone. Listen to what I am about to say, then stop this stupid argument.

In State of the Art, the Culture went to Earth. The Culture Mind then proceeded to go through every single program that has ever been created digitally. It went through every book, play, screenplay, movie, TV show, Radio Program and anything else that can be printed. They saw every episode of Star Trek. Guess what?

The ship recreated the technology in less then a day for a fucking party.

Does that make sense to you? For a bit where people where gonna get drunk and throw someone into a pool who was running around with a lightsaber and a phaser, they recreated technology the Federation makes, on a Exploration vessel.

Not a GSV which had 90,000 Drone ships and the capacity to stay beyond reach. It has been shown canonically that the Culture have seen Federation technology and guess what?

They thought it was a novelty.

Just give up already.

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Post by GStone » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:22 pm

Anisarian wrote:GStone. Listen to what I am about to say, then stop this stupid argument.
:-)
In State of the Art, the Culture went to Earth. The Culture Mind then proceeded to go through every single program that has ever been created digitally. It went through every book, play, screenplay, movie, TV show, Radio Program and anything else that can be printed. They saw every episode of Star Trek. Guess what?

The ship recreated the technology in less then a day for a fucking party.

Does that make sense to you?
I'm fully aware of what happened. It doesn't mean shit though. But, there are 2 problems with that. Well, 4. First, Trek has never explained just how subspace fields or phasers work. Wars has never explained how lightsabres or hyperdrives work. I've come up with lots of theories for Trek and Wars, most of them standing the test of time so far, but that doesn't mean Trek or Wars use those same theories. I could be horribly wrong, but we will never know with 100% accuracy until it is said on screen.

Second, Time's Arrow I & II, as well as the appearance of gravimetric warheads, showed up after the Culture ship had left. And third, this is technology of fiction without detailed analysis of canon technical specs. The best the Culture could do is recreate the devices using Culture principles or any other principles they knew of...but, not Trek or Wars principles. For any devices made, they may have had the same end results, but to say they did them in exactly the same way is beyond ludicrous. If the details were gone from the canon when it was scacnned, they wouldn't have gotten them when they got the info on Trek. Trek canon does have certain standards and that doesn't include background information.

And lastly, number four. This is a versus debate. If you give either side the other's technology, it wouldn't be Culture v Federation. It'd be Federation v Federation or Culture v Culture. Not Federation v Culture. Each side can adapt their tactics and technology to the other's side. The extent and quickness of the adaptation depends on how easily it can be modified and the speed of the individual(s) that's doing the modifications.
For a bit where people where gonna get drunk and throw someone into a pool who was running around with a lightsaber and a phaser, they recreated technology the Federation makes, on a Exploration vessel.

Not a GSV which had 90,000 Drone ships and the capacity to stay beyond reach. It has been shown canonically that the Culture have seen Federation technology and guess what?

They thought it was a novelty.

Just give up already.
No.

Novelty maybe, but they are soooooo smart and have ruled that time travel is impossible. They're like the Vulcan Science Council in ENT. The fact remains that there is knowledge they lack, technology they lack and there are other limitations.

Blame Banks for that.

By the by, I have been running into trouble on something. I've been trying to find just what specifically Culture canon is. Is it only the books? Does it include interviews from Banks, too? I haven't gotten quite that clear a picture. Given the limited sources, I'm not entirely sure just how to categorize everything.

The page of the long list of quotes I guess would be treated like the Trek encyclopedia. If the info on that page comes from the books, the info itself is what's canon. Would Banks' interviews be like the structure of the Wars' canon with different grades? There's even his 'pseudo' FAQ and the notes on marain.

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Post by Roondar » Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:57 pm

I wonder, what is stopping the Culture to redoing their 'gather information' trick and get, oh, I don't know, the Federation Science databanks with all the information/technology GStone suggests they lack?

(Remember, apart from a grand total of one time in ST:FC alien forces have had absolutely zero trouble doing just that. We see aliens doing this on screen all the time and in pretty much all series too)

This is actually a serious question BTW.

--

Secondly, I wonder why you feel that your temporal phased objects, which -on screen anyway- interact with non-phased objects at least partially are so completely immune to anything?

This is also a serious question, mainly because we see Data et. al. interacting with matter and energy that is not phased. See, my gut feeling says that the writers just didn't think it through properly but that is not an in-universe

--

Thirdly, I wonder why GStone is so adamant the Culture ship (i.e. the target) cannot move out of the way or use it's defenses. See below why I feel this is still glossed over too much:

A detonation of a weapon that purely happens in phased-space would not actually work, the weapon would have to release it's energy in normal space. As far as I remember, the episodes used by GStone for his argument have not actually shown anyone having the ability to directly affect anything non-phased while they where themselves phased. Seems logical to me that the weapon in question would need to 'de-phase' before detonation. Which offers the Culture a window of opportunity to take defensive steps.

--

Fourthly, I still feel that giving the Federation access to technologies and weapons they've not actually shown to posses on screen is a tad unfair. Research or no research, it's pretty clear that even during Voyager and Nemesis the Federation did not have phased weapons. Especially since that technology would have been extremely useful in say, the battle during Nemesis.

In fact, the suggestion made during the last few Voyager episodes is that the Federation will develop phased weapons (transphasic torpedoes and all) but not for at least a few decades after Voyager actually ends. Which means that the research is probably ongoing (or maybe just beginning) but not actually finished yet at the time we're having the Culture pop in and spoil the fun.


--

Edit: I'd like to add that my earlier statements of GStone being dishonest are probably a bit too strong. My apologies for that. That said, my position on the Federations chances vs. the Culture stands.

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Post by GStone » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:35 pm

Roondar wrote:I wonder, what is stopping the Culture to redoing their 'gather information' trick and get, oh, I don't know, the Federation Science databanks with all the information/technology GStone suggests they lack?
Out of universe: The rules of a versus debate, if you really want to see what would happen when you test technology and tactics.

In universe: They already think they know better. Given how much is touted about how smart they are, they feel things like time travel is impossible. They've studied the idea and found it wanting. So, based on their 'extensive knowledge', the time travel incidents in question (for one example) would be treated as not actually happening. So, it must be something else because the Culture is so smart that they would have thought it up themselves, if it was possible. That is also one of the often used pro-Culture arguments used in their debates for less technologically advanced societies they're pitted against.
(Remember, apart from a grand total of one time in ST:FC alien forces have had absolutely zero trouble doing just that. We see aliens doing this on screen all the time and in pretty much all series too)

This is actually a serious question BTW.
It doesn't matter how many Trek aliens have done it. If they learned and accepted that their temporal sceinces knowledge was lacking, they'd use Fed tech against Fed tech and that cancels out how the societies would match up and fight. It'd make it Fed v Fed, not Fed v Culture.
Secondly, I wonder why you feel that your temporal phased objects, which -on screen anyway- interact with non-phased objects at least partially are so completely immune to anything?

This is also a serious question, mainly because we see Data et. al. interacting with matter and energy that is not phased. See, my gut feeling says that the writers just didn't think it through properly but that is not an in-universe
As I explained to Narsil, not all phase variances are the same and not all temporal phase variances are the same. To assume they all are every single time is erroneous. In Time's Arrow, they needed a specific phase variance. .004. That's differnet from .00000564322, .000000303030303030330300306786544 or .21.
Thirdly, I wonder why GStone is so adamant the Culture ship (i.e. the target) cannot move out of the way or use it's defenses.
That is in direct contradiction to what I have said before. Earlier, I said I was counting on the ships moving around. But...what denotes 'out of the way' is hard from the perspective of just seeing gravitational energy appear from several different directions and in several points in space-time. With no frame of reference, how one determines what's 'out of the way' is difficult. The best that can be done is just a guess. It can be known to the one sending the gravitational energy, but that's irrelevent to whether the opponent can determine it.

As far as defenses, they can use them, but fields won't keep the gravitational energy outside when it rephases on the inside of the ship and inside the components of the generators. The field and the generator can't take up the same volume in space-time, nor can each of the individual parts of the generator. Trapdoors are out because gravitational energy reads as a 'force' to trapdoor systems, which funnel out 'energy'. And trapdoors don't work on 'forces'.
See below why I feel this is still glossed over too much:

A detonation of a weapon that purely happens in phased-space would not actually work, the weapon would have to release it's energy in normal space. As far as I remember, the episodes used by GStone for his argument have not actually shown anyone having the ability to directly affect anything non-phased while they where themselves phased. Seems logical to me that the weapon in question would need to 'de-phase' before detonation. Which offers the Culture a window of opportunity to take defensive steps.
Data's comm badge didn't have to be 'de-phased' before it sent the signal. It remained phased and went with him when he went through the temporal portal to the past. He used the badge as money to get into the card game at the hotel. It was the signal sent by his comm badge alone that was set to a 'delay' to rephase with normal space.

Here's the dialogue:

DATA
(continuing)
My voice will be transmitted on
a delay correlated to the phase
adjustment... it should allow me
to maintain verbal contact...

RIKER
Will we be able to talk to you?

DATA
Nossir, that will not be possible.
Fourthly, I still feel that giving the Federation access to technologies and weapons they've not actually shown to posses on screen is a tad unfair.
They have shown these things on screen. It's just the combination that hasn't been seen. But, that itself isn't a reason for why it shouldn't be used, especially when the OP says "Said powers must survive the assault from the Sleeper Service by any means necessary, though they aren't given prior warning."

But, even when you ignore that point, it's common practice with 9 times out of 10 episodes that technology is modified, adjusted or adapted to something going on. In this scenario, what's happening is a change in tactics that uses current technology.

Mirrors have been used for a very long time to see around corners. Add to that, using a sling shot or a gun and you change the tactic, you haven't changed the weapons. Flashlights haven't always been used on weapons, as hadn't laser sightes. It's just a new application of tech combinations with already existing stuff.

If anything, putting a Culture ship in the middle of Fed territory with no previous warning is 'a tad unfair' to a high level, but what I've done is try to make the best of it.
Research or no research, it's pretty clear that even during Voyager and Nemesis the Federation did not have phased weapons. Especially since that technology would have been extremely useful in say, the battle during Nemesis.
We are stuck on the canon explanation beacause it has not been given. But, should we just assume that they decided to just forget about the knowledge learned from the Time's Arrow incident?

If you want to talk about an existing technology that could very well be used during an armed conflict in real life, there is a system that currently exists that helps protect armored vehicles by taking out the flying projectile. It could track the projectiles and minimize the damage taken. I think it was one of those abalative armor variants. However, the US military wasn't using it because of some already assigned contract with another company that hadn't come up with anything at the moment and I haven't heard anything about them putting something together since. I first heard it on NBC news (I think the reporter's name was Lisa Daniels) and they ran the story for a while.

And this also doesn't prevent further anti-missle/tank protecting systems from advancing or at least having research with the current systems being active presently.

Also, there are limits when phased like that. Data couldn't interact the rest of the away team when they wanted to say something. Even if he saw some of what's around him, he wasn't interacting with everything or else he wouldn't need to send his comm signal to match the away team's phase variance. That's dangerous when done in the middle of a battle.

During Nemesis, we don't know the extent of what was being done to protect Earth. Maybe they had something better, but we will never know unless they say something.
In fact, the suggestion made during the last few Voyager episodes is that the Federation will develop phased weapons (transphasic torpedoes and all) but not for at least a few decades after Voyager actually ends. Which means that the research is probably ongoing (or maybe just beginning) but not actually finished yet at the time we're having the Culture pop in and spoil the fun.
And yet, the time the Culture ship pops in is many years after Time's Arrow and the Federation is very involved in research. Given the Federation's size, it isn't out of the question that there'd be a couple places doing the research. And when Time's Arrow was happening, they easily got it to work. All they'd need afterwards is a duplicate of Data's phase discriminator (something that at least that guy that was trying to create another Data had; there was even that cybernetics conference or whatever that Data went to before he made Lol; and there was the admiral that was assisting Data when she was malfunctioning-- Soong type androids have been studied for a very very long time; that would require the basic components) and a subspace field generator. There are subspace field generators from communication devices to warp drive.

But, they only needed Data's phase discriminator because they were trying for a .004 variance in time. They said that .004 is a fraction of a second. That would mean that a less sensitive discriminator would cause a different change in time. Geordie's concern was finding a phase discriminator to let them go out of phase for a fraction of a second, not finding any phase discriminator at all.

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Post by Anisarian » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:15 am

Tell me GStone, which of the books have you read? I ask out of Curiosity, cause you don't seem to know anything real about the Culture at all.
First, Trek has never explained just how subspace fields or phasers work. Wars has never explained how lightsabres or hyperdrives work.
The Mind can recreate technological effects of treknology without havinganything to base it off but TOS trek Effects? Thats more impressive then being able to create something when the physics are given to it.
Second, Time's Arrow I & II, as well as the appearance of gravimetric warheads, showed up after the Culture ship had left
My point was not that they would have previous knowledge of Treknology, my point was that for a party they could recreate the exact effects of it. For a party. For a party. Got that bit yet?
And third, this is technology of fiction without detailed analysis of canon technical specs. The best the Culture could do is recreate the devices using Culture principles or any other principles they knew of...but, not Trek or Wars principles. For any devices made, they may have had the same end results, but to say they did them in exactly the same way is beyond ludicrous. If the details were gone from the canon when it was scacnned, they wouldn't have gotten them when they got the info on Trek. Trek canon does have certain standards and that doesn't include background information.
So? Culture technology allows to recreate the effects of Treknology, even if the science isn't the same. The Effects are what is important here, because if a Culture GCU was able to recreate the effects for a party where everyone was going to step around and get drunk and throw someone with a energy weapon activated into a pool, a Culture GSV which has 90,000 warships (Not Drones, proper warships slaved to the Sleeper Services Ship-Mind) that has been tasked with exterminating all life in the sector should be able to disect most Trek Technology.
And lastly, number four. This is a versus debate. If you give either side the other's technology, it wouldn't be Culture v Federation. It'd be Federation v Federation or Culture v Culture. Not Federation v Culture. Each side can adapt their tactics and technology to the other's side. The extent and quickness of the adaptation depends on how easily it can be modified and the speed of the individual(s) that's doing the modifications.
The Ability to produce their technology was meant to show that the Federation technology is vastly inferior to the Cultures, but you seemed to ignore that point rather nicely, so is shall state it again, Federation Military Tech was Recreated for a Party.
Novelty maybe, but they are soooooo smart and have ruled that time travel is impossible.
So lets just take stock here shall we?

Banks said Time Travel is physically impossible in his universe, this isn't something the Minds ever actually mention, but something that Banks said. The Culture Universe doesn't allow for Time Travel Physically.

You say the Minds are dumb because they ruled out a Technology that Banks has stated was physically impossible. Congrats, your an idiot.
he fact remains that there is knowledge they lack, technology they lack and there are other limitations.
Sadly for the Feds the thing they lack isn't going to matter one Iota when it comes to combat, since the things the Federation lack are much more important.
Blame Banks for that.
For what? Setting limits on his universe? Making damn good stories and not fucking it up with inane Time Travel Plots half way through an established technology base? keeping himself to a higher standard then the writers of Trek who gave up on keeping anything sensical or consistant and just threw it all together in a string of plotlines?

I think I shall, but its not the same sort of Blame I cast on you for giving Star Trek Debaters everywhere a bad name.
By the by, I have been running into trouble on something. I've been trying to find just what specifically Culture canon is. Is it only the books? Does it include interviews from Banks, too? I haven't gotten quite that clear a picture. Given the limited sources, I'm not entirely sure just how to categorize everything.
Books are Canon, as are things such as his "There is no Time Travel in my Universe", however the No time Travel thing is not a factor in debates against universe where Time Travel is used Commonly in the setting.
The page of the long list of quotes I guess would be treated like the Trek encyclopedia. If the info on that page comes from the books, the info itself is what's canon. Would Banks' interviews be like the structure of the Wars' canon with different grades? There's even his 'pseudo' FAQ and the notes on marain.
If the Pseudo FAQ your talking about is a Few Notes on the Culture, all that is considered canon, cause it was written to explain about the Culture.

Interviews only clear things up for us, or in the case of time travel say its physically impossible in the Culture. So its not canon per-sea, but it is as well.

Now GStone

Throughout this Debate you have spouted Bullshit about how the Culture will get destroyed, how it would loose. Here is what you have to prove to us. If you cannot prove the following with quotes then I, and everyone else arguing, will accept it as the closest we are going to get to a concession and move on.

Prove the Following:

(1) That the Federation can produce enough of these weapons, as well as equipt enough of their fleets to fight the Sleeper Service and her 90,000 strong fleet within the time it takes the Sleeper Service to cross the Entirety of Federation Space (12 Days roughly)

(2) That your 'Gravitaional Gridfire' is stronger then the weaponry that is thrown around against Culture Warships. Since phasing in may as well be Displacing in, the only thing this is going to do to suprise a Culture Warship is give off more energy then their own weapons. Prove Federation can mass Produce Death Star level Planet killers to kill Culture ships.

(3) Prove that the Federation can match Culture Reaction Speeds. As it is, you haven't done this, and we have provided quotes showing the entire battle with the Killing Time Taking 11 Microseconds. To give you an idea, stop watches don't usually measure in lengths that long unless they are specialty science Gear. Prove that anything in the Federation, Excluding Q can react that fast.

If you can prove all that with Quotes showing each we may actually look into this debate a little more. If not, we accept your Concession.

Signed
Anisarian
The Culture Vulture.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:37 am

Banks said Time Travel is physically impossible in his universe, this isn't something the Minds ever actually mention, but something that Banks said. The Culture Universe doesn't allow for Time Travel Physically.

You say the Minds are dumb because they ruled out a Technology that Banks has stated was physically impossible. Congrats, your an idiot.
1. I'd like to say that insulting people is not tolerated.

2. Before calling some one an idiot, check your spelling. It's "you're", not "your".

3. In the light of this scenario, nevermind what that Banks guy says. You can chalk it up to something they think is impossible, but actually is.

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