The Culture versus the UFP & Allies

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Who wins, then?

Federation
4
24%
Culture
13
76%
 
Total votes: 17

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:45 pm

And my point was that they aren't built to fire is spherical paths. You did drop them off in the center of Fed space. Fed space does have 3 dimensions to it.
They're also not yet detected as ships, this is required for the Federation to actually react to an alien threat as being an alien threat and not some random thing that's in the middle of another dimension.
I have shown they can detect things in other phase variances. Moving on.
You haven't shown that they can detect what those things are, only a vague idea that something's there. A footprint doesn't look like a boot.
Neither of which are required.
But they are required, that's the whole point.
Oh, god. And you accuse me of being fanwanked. Moving on.
So, I suppose we'll ignore The Player of Games shall we?
Iain M. Banks wrote:'Gurgeh; Makil Stra-bey again, at your service. How's tricks? Not another visitation from Contact, surely?'

'No. But I have a feeling they left something behind when they were here; something to watch me.'

'What… you mean a bug or a microsystem or something?'

'Yes,' he said, sitting back in the broad couch. He wore a simple robe. His skin felt scrubbed and shiny clean after his bathe. Somehow, the friendly, understanding voice of Hub made him feel better; it would be all right, he'd work something out. He was probably frightened over nothing; Mawhrin-Skel was just a demented, insane machine with delusions of power and grandeur; It wouldn't be able to prove anything, and nobody would believe it if it simply made unsubstantiated claims.

'What makes you think you're being bugged?'

'I can't tell you,' Gurgeh said. 'Sorry. But I have seen some evidence. Can you send something - drones or whatever - to Ikroh, to sweep the place? Would you be able to find something if they did leave anything?'

'If it's ordinary tech stuff, yes. But it depends on the soph level. A warship can passive-bug using its electro-magnetic effector; they can watch you under a hundred klicks of rock-cover from the next stellar system and tell you what your last meal was. Hyper-space tech; there are defences against it, but no way of detecting it's going on.'

'Nothing that complicated; just a bug or a camera or something.'

'Should be possible. We'll displace a drone team to you in a minute or so. Want us to harden this comm channel? Can't make it totally eavesdrop-proof, but we can make it difficult.'
Sorry, you lose.
You are continuing to show that you are the one that's fanwanked. Moving on.
Again, you ignore evidence from the actual novels, this time Excession;
Iain M. Banks wrote:The Killing Time plunged intact through the third wave of ancient Culture ships; they rushed on, towards the Excession. It fended off a few more of the warheads and missiles which had been directed at it, turning a couple of the latter back upon their own ships for a few moments before they were detected and destructed. The hulk of the Attitude Adjuster fell astern behind the departing fleet, coasting and twisting and tumbling in hyperspace, still heading away from and outstripping the Killing Time as it braked and started to turn.

There was only a vestigial fourth wave; fourteen ships (they were targeting it now). Had it known there were so few in the final echelon, the Killing Time would have attacked the second wave of ships. Oh well; luck counted too. It watched the Attitude Adjuster a moment longer to ensure it really was tearing itself apart. It was.

It turned its attention to the remaining fourteen craft. On its suicide trajectory it could take them all on and stand a decent chance of destroying perhaps four of them before its luck ran out; maybe a half-dozen if it was really lucky. Or it could push away and complete its brake-turn-accelerate manoeuvre to make a second pass at the main fleet. Even if they'd be waiting for it this time, it could reckon on accounting for a good few of them. Again, in the four-to-eight range.

Or it could do this.

It pulled itself round the edge of the fourteen ships in the rump of the fleet as they reconfigured their formation to meet it. Bringing up the rear they had had more warning of its attack and so had had time to adopt a suitable pattern. The Killing Time ignored the obvious challenge and temptation of flying straight into their midst and flew past and round, targeting only the outer five craft nearest it.

They gave a decent account of themselves but it prevailed, dispatching two of them with engine field implosures. This was, it had always thought, a clean, decent and honourable way to die. The pair of wreckage-shells coasted onwards; the rest of the ships sped on unharmed, chasing the main fleet. Not one of the ships turned back to take it on.

The Killing Time continued to brake, oriented towards the fast vanishing war fleet and the region of the Excession. Its engine fields were gouging great livid tracks in the energy grid as it back-pedalled furiously.

It encountered the ROU which had dropped aft with engine damage, falling back towards it as the Killing Time slowed and the other craft coasted onward and struggled to repair its motive power units. The Killing Time attempted to communicate with the ROU, was fired upon, and tried to take the craft over with its effector. The ROU's own independent automatics detected the ship's Mind starting to give in. They tripped a destruct sequence and another hypersphere of radiation blossomed beneath the skein.

Shit, thought the Killing Time. It scanned the hyper volumes around itself.

Nothing threatening.

Well, damn me, it thought, as it slowed. I'm still alive.

This was the one outcome it hadn't anticipated.

It ran a systems check. Totally unharmed, apart from the self-inflicted degradation to its engines. It slackened off the power, dropping back to normal maxima and watching the readouts; significant degradation from here in about a hundred hours. Not too bad. Self-repairing would take days at all-engines-stop. Warhead stocks down to forty per cent; remanufacturing from first principles would take four to seven hours, depending on the exact mix it chose. Plasma chambers at ninety-six per cent efficiency; about right for the engagement system-use profile according to the relevant charts and graphs. Self-repair mechanisms champing the bit. It looked around, concentrating on the view astern. No obvious threats; it let the self-repairers make a start on two of the four chambers. Full reconstruction time, two hundred and four seconds.

Entire engagement duration; eleven microseconds. Hmm; it had felt longer. But then that was only natural.
Sorry, you lose again.
Total lie, but not surprising.
It happened several times in Excession, you're completely ignoring big plot points such as when the Sleeper Service dumped tens of thousands of people onto a nearby orbital in a flyby run.
There were a couple points. The first point is that for anything ball busting to come through a wormhole, it'll be far in excess of what the minimum level of detection is for Fed sensors. We aren't talking about a micro-wormhole to transport a galaxy munching black hole.
Which will be displaced inside the ship.
The second point is that things with propulsion will actually mooooooove.
Which will bring the Black Hole along with them, provided they have the few seconds required to actually get the ship into a state of movement.
You know full well humans are not the only species on Fed ships. Moving on.
Nothing non-human or human has Culture-level reaction times in the Federation. Moving on.
Also not the issue. My mention of that was for saying what people on planets and stations without propulsion units would be attempting to do when they realized they needed to get out of there. Pay more attention. Moving on.
Not that it matters, given a few more microseconds and the other weapons of the remote droneships (equal to ROUs) would be focused onto the other ships too.
What's mindboggling to you is that I'm not so willing to bend over a barrel and spread 'em as easily and quickly as you are when it comes to this particular scenario. Get over it. Moving on.
You're insane is what you are.
Blatant ignoring of times when Fed sensors can detect things that have a phase variance. Moving on.
They still won't detect a ship, they'll detect a thing that may or may not be a ship. And the ROU-style drones of this ship may end up moving too quickly and be too small to detect.
"Trek parallel realities work off of variances of resonance phase frequencies. The Culture'verse has a series of older/younger universes, which would all correspond to 1, or at least 1 small grouping of resonance phase frequencies. This view helps us to understand the relationship of what is going on with what we, especially me, are talking about."
And Culture physics don't work that way. Parallel realities go by a string theory and... well... much 'harder' sci-fi than Trek's idea of things.
Yes, the same fields that still let the Culture ships get beat like a ho by her pimp.
Read that they were outnumbered, effectively unarmed and had to build a new force from scratch. They had a few thousand warships during the Culture-Idiran war, they have 90,000 here.
Computer reactions are irrelevent when it comes to trapdoors and gravitational energy. It just won't work. And the fields don't help. The gravitational energy still gets by.
So you're going to say that canonically this gravitational energy of yours can almost instantly outdo a Black Hole since fields can resist those? We are dealing with a culture (heh) that does stuff like that all the blinking time.
I have shown they can. Moving on.
Considering your blatant ignorance of the situation, and I have shown that they can't, you lose.
Then, they should have moved him to R&D, but they didn't. Data isn't the only smart person in the Federation. There are many examples of just as equally ingenious or better MacGuyvering being done.

But then, there really were no technological breakthroughs in the Federation before Data came around. [shakes head] Moving on.
They've been using the same sort of missile weapon for over two hundred years, the same sort of transportation and propulsion and even the same sort of beam weapons. What breakthroughs were they again? Shields? I think that's about it.
You have no idea what actually happens in the brain, do you?
You obviously lack a funcitonal brain, don't you?
Right...because the borg, the entire crew of Voyager and many members of Species 8472 all had hallucinations. Moving on.
Because dead people can't do anything, duh.
Your automatic assumption of stupidity is without evidence.
Their idea of 'get home' is to go the long way and avoid every other single opportunity presented and often don't even ask the local deity for fuck's sake. They're very stupid.
If you're plopped in the middle of Federation space, to reach all corners of it would require energy going in a 360 degree wave horizontally, vertically and at all angles. That's a sphere.
You missed the remote droneships part, those 90,000 little things that would be launched from the Sleeper Service and commanded to carry out the sun-exploding and alpha-striking upon individual ships.

Now, the Federation loses, this is what happens when it takes on the Culture. Good day sir.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:41 pm

Narsil wrote:They're also not yet detected as ships, this is required for the Federation to actually react to an alien threat as being an alien threat and not some random thing that's in the middle of another dimension.
Once something has been registered, it'd be the same as Fed sensor usage, which would figure it out to some degree. They can tell the difference between types of objects.
But they are required, that's the whole point.
Not with the scenario you've laid out.
It happened several times in Excession...
It doesn't matter because the Federation doesn't have Culture tech. Stop flapping about. What I said was a lie was the fact you claimed I had no point to make there. I had 2 points and you quoted the damn things. Moving on.
Which will be displaced inside the ship.
Not if the ship is moving around. You have yet to show that once a wormhole is established, that either the entrance or exit ends can move without a new wormhole needing to be established.

Hell, I've got no problem if opening one inside a ship would rip through the hull because of the wormhole's tidal forces, if the ship moved, but the fact remains is that the ship will still be moving and emergency force fields will appear.
Which will bring the Black Hole along with them, provided they have the few seconds required to actually get the ship into a state of movement.
The rate of acceleration from a dead stop to c is only within a second or so for warp. It's longer some times with a ship like the Intrepid class because there might be an adjustment with the nacelles before going to warp. But, even then, take VOY: The Void. Once getting out the apperture that sucked Voyager and many other ships inside, it immediately went to warp to escape. There was a device that helped keep the gravitational pull of the apperture from sucking Voyager and the other ships in the pseudoFederation back into the Void, but Voyager still demonstrated one of its quickest accelerations ever seen. And the nacelles aren't always required to change from their impulse speed placement when they go to warp. Some warp factors keep the nacelles down.

With FTL sensors to detect black hole levels of gravitational energy coming through the wormhole, they jump to warp and are safe from the black hole.

That's all that's needed to keep from having a black hole show up inside the ship. But, as far the black hole traveling with them, it might move, but why with the ship? What if the ship zig zagged? Is the black hole gonna zig zag, too? I doubt it. If the black hole was gonna move, it'd continue on the path it was on. Now, let's say that there isn't a massive black hole, but one of those microscopic ones that some say are showing up all the time.

I don't know the current state on if that's acceptable thinking anymore, but let's say it is. They're so small that for the ship to continue moving with one in them, it isn't gonna do anything. If an actual black hole of significant size to do something to your average sized ship is there, the ship wouldn't move. Now, they did show Voyager and a crack in an event horizon, which I had to do a double take when I heard it. But...I categorized it as some range for an even horizon, not the dividing line that it is known as today.

What they came across was classified as a 'quantum singularity' which is a much broader range of phenom than just the specific 'black hole' descriptor. A quantum signularity is what was used by Seven to take Voyager to fluidic space and it didn't crush them. This particular type was type 4, so, with the larger grouping category, this particular type of singularity must have an end point and a 'close to end point' area designation for event horizon.
And Culture physics don't work that way. Parallel realities go by a string theory and... well... much 'harder' sci-fi than Trek's idea of things.
Do you even understand what string theory is saying? Extra dimensions are degrees of freedom for particles and other bits. Some are curled up so tiny that it'd be like trying to pass an earth sized planet, even without the atmo, through an opening the size of a drinking straw. That's what happens when attempting to see into these extra dimensions with electromagnetism. In the analogy, the earth represents electromagnetic energy.

Things that can pass into these smaller dimensions are also able to travel through the larger dimensions (such as those that EM energy can move through) at the same time without doing anything to those bits. And they're doing this on a regular basis.

Banks' reality is one of a series of 'universe creation events' that are not like parallel realities in the sense of 2 universes have the same history up to a certain point where they start branching off into different directions. They're more a part of the same grouping of 'sub-universes' for a particular universe.

And didn't Banks come up with a bunch of other physics terms? I've never known real physics to use ultraspace.
Read that they were outnumbered, effectively unarmed and had to build a new force from scratch. They had a few thousand warships during the Culture-Idiran war, they have 90,000 here.
But, none of them with fields to stop a significant amount of gravitational energy from doing damage and none with trapdoors to do jack squat to gravitational energy.
So you're going to say that canonically this gravitational energy of yours can almost instantly outdo a Black Hole since fields can resist those? We are dealing with a culture (heh) that does stuff like that all the blinking time.
Gravitational energy based weapons are a problem for Culture ships.
You obviously lack a funcitonal brain, don't you?
Trying to get me rilde up will get you nowhere.
You missed the remote droneships part, those 90,000 little things that would be launched from the Sleeper Service and commanded to carry out the sun-exploding and alpha-striking upon individual ships.
I didn't miss anything. Fed ships can still outrun supernova shockwaves and stable wormholes.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:55 pm

I didn't miss anything. Fed ships can still outrun supernova shockwaves and stable wormholes.
They can't outrun CAM missiles, which you've conveniently forgotten about, since they move faster than Federation FTL. And naturally there's also the fun nature of effectors, which can just literally set each and every Federation ship in the area to auto-destruct within microseconds, which is a tactic that's actually been used before.
Not if the ship is moving around. You have yet to show that once a wormhole is established, that either the entrance or exit ends can move without a new wormhole needing to be established.
It was a very complex plot point, consisting mostly of dialogue and also an unrelated matter entirely, but both Genar-Hoefen and Amorphia were displaced between the rapidly fleeing Grey Area and the Sleeper Service, both moving in opposite directions. You can read the novel if you'd like.
Hell, I've got no problem if opening one inside a ship would rip through the hull because of the wormhole's tidal forces, if the ship moved, but the fact remains is that the ship will still be moving and emergency force fields will appear.
You've yet to show that the Federation can react fast enough to the way these things work. CAM is a weapon that's expected to be used multiple times in fights that last - as I quoted - eleven microseconds.
The rate of acceleration from a dead stop to c is only within a second or so for warp.
You're forgetting that someone has to press the buttons and make a bearing before that occurs. It only takes a few seconds, but that is literally forever for a Culture ship.
With FTL sensors to detect black hole levels of gravitational energy coming through the wormhole, they jump to warp and are safe from the black hole.
Funny that they never do that previously. Of course it's rather dangerous to enter warp without a heading, since you could very much hit your ship on something very hard while moving very fast.

And naturally, the way that the Displacer wormholes work, it's a literal 'flash of white and it's there' level wormhole. Infinitely quicker than Trek transporters, elsewise they would be completely useless in combat among Culture vessels, but they're actually used as a recurrent delivery system.
But, none of them with fields to stop a significant amount of gravitational energy from doing damage and none with trapdoors to do jack squat to gravitational energy.
Right, now prove that the Federation can generate enough gravitational energy to match the Idiran ships, deliver them fast enough and do so over the long ranges required. The Idirans were technologically inferior, but not by much.
Gravitational energy based weapons are a problem for Culture ships.
Erm, yes, we've established that, now establish that the Federation can make one that's powerful enough.
I didn't miss anything. Fed ships can still outrun supernova shockwaves and stable wormholes.
And they can't outrun effectors, displacers, CAM missiles, (in most places) gridfire and all of the other neat weapons available to the Culture. Gotta love how they just have something for everything.

You also have to prove that the Culture ships won't themselves outrun the STL gravitational energy of Federation weapons, because they do that well enough.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:41 am

Narsil wrote:They can't outrun CAM missiles, which you've conveniently forgotten about, since they move faster than Federation FTL.
Ugh. I already told you I haven't forgotten anything. MO.
It was a very complex plot point, consisting mostly of dialogue and also an unrelated matter entirely, but both Genar-Hoefen and Amorphia were displaced between the rapidly fleeing Grey Area and the Sleeper Service, both moving in opposite directions. You can read the novel if you'd like.
So, you have no evidence, even an inference, that the ends of their stable wormholes can move through space in a deliberate path.
You've yet to show that the Federation can react fast enough to the way these things work. CAM is a weapon that's expected to be used multiple times in fights that last - as I quoted - eleven microseconds.
See my first reply in this particular post. Moving on.
You're forgetting that someone has to press the buttons and make a bearing before that occurs. It only takes a few seconds, but that is literally forever for a Culture ship.
That much action is more than what's required.
Funny that they never do that previously.
That's because there has never been a specific story that shows that. But, the actions can be inferred logically by just thinking. Moving on.
Right, now prove that the Federation can generate enough gravitational energy to match the Idiran ships, deliver them fast enough and do so over the long ranges required. The Idirans were technologically inferior, but not by much.
Already done.
Erm, yes, we've established that, now establish that the Federation can make one that's powerful enough.
Replicators.
And they can't outrun effectors, displacers, CAM missiles, (in most places) gridfire and all of the other neat weapons available to the Culture. Gotta love how they just have something for everything.
Except gravitational energy based weapons. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwweeeee. Oh shucks.
You also have to prove that the Culture ships won't themselves outrun the STL gravitational energy of Federation weapons, because they do that well enough.
Given that it's appearing in temporal synch inside them, it's already there.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:59 am

Post by Narsil » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:54 am

Ugh. I already told you I haven't forgotten anything. MO.
But apparently you did. We're encountering you erecting the wall of ignorance.
So, you have no evidence, even an inference, that the ends of their stable wormholes can move through space in a deliberate path.
I knew I'd find the quote eventually, here;
~ Be seeing you.

~ What? Where are you going? the Sleeper Service sent as the Grey Area shot past it.

~ Here; Churt Lyne wants to jump ship.

The Grey Area Displaced the ancient drone into the Sleeper Service.

The giant GSV had finally come to a halt, not far from the thirty-light-year limit the Fate Amenable To Change had discovered and the Excession had, seemingly, set.

The GSV's war fleet was still deployed, set out in a year's-radius hemisphere throughout the skein while the Affronter's fleet of tricked Culture craft gathered together and opened their armament and armour systems to the scrutiny and control of the Killing Time and its comrades. The Affronter officers were transferred aboard the Killing Time still in their space suits while the GSV What Is The Answer And Why? quickly readied secure accommodation for them.

~ Come back!

The Grey Area was too far away.
There we go, from a moving object onto a nonmoving object, one of them moving at very fast FTL speeds.
See my first reply in this particular post. Moving on.
You're full of bullshit and you know it.
That much action is more than what's required.
Show me evidence of Federation vessels having an automatic warp reaction to any detected force within microseconds, now or give up the debate.
That's because there has never been a specific story that shows that. But, the actions can be inferred logically by just thinking. Moving on.
But it would have been such a useful automatic reaction against, say, the Borg or the Dominion if you were outnumbered. You're fucking lying, GStone, now concede the debate that you've already lost.
Already done.
No, you haven't, you've said the Culture can be susceptible to gravitational energy, what you haven't proved is that the Federation can generate enough of it at any given time.
Replicators.
And how the fuck is that meant to work? Spend all day replicating a really big bomb - a strategy that would have worked really well against the Dominion and the Borg but was funnily enough never used - while the Culture's tracking you down and destroying you within minutes. Very clever.
Except gravitational energy based weapons. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwweeeee. Oh shucks.
Except where they can fly through the edge of the event horizon of a black hole.

I'm going to make it very simple;

PROVE THAT THE FEDERATION CAN GENERATE ENOUGH ENERGY TO AT LEAST MATCH THAT OR YOU HAVE LOST THE FUCKING DEBATE! Have I made myself clear enough yet?
Given that it's appearing in temporal synch inside them, it's already there.
Prove that it'll appear in hyperspace and affect it, because the Culture ships, being combat ready, will be in hyperspace. The Idirans fought the Culture while themselves in hyperspace and their weapons could affect hyperspace. Especially seeing as hyperspace allows someone to be very literally phase-cloaked out of existence versus everyone else.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:12 pm

Narsil wrote:I knew I'd find the quote eventually, here;
So? The entire process was completed. That itself isn't so surprising. But, I'm talking about maintaining the opening and moving it around.
Show me evidence of Federation vessels having an automatic warp reaction to any detected force within microseconds, now or give up the debate.
That's a ridiculous ultimatum and not what I was talking about.
No, you haven't, you've said the Culture can be susceptible to gravitational energy, what you haven't proved is that the Federation can generate enough of it at any given time.

And how the fuck is that meant to work?
You speak and it makes them.
Spend all day replicating a really big bomb
No, take the time to replicate a lot of them.
- a strategy that would have worked really well against the Dominion and the Borg but was funnily enough never used
The Dominion and the Borg have never shown a special weakness to gravitational energy, like the Culture ships are. So, there's no need to build that kind of specialty device.
Except where they can fly through the edge of the event horizon of a black hole.
And trapdoors still don't do jack squat with gravitational energy because they classify it as a force. Moving on.
I'm going to make it very simple;

PROVE THAT THE FEDERATION CAN GENERATE ENOUGH ENERGY TO AT LEAST MATCH THAT OR YOU HAVE LOST THE FUCKING DEBATE! Have I made myself clear enough yet?
What you have made clear is your unwillingness to look at what I said. Tell the replicator to make a shitload of the units and there you go. They all can add up to the levels required. Being temporally out of phase, if they don't succeed with enough of them at first, they can try again with larger amounts. What's so difficult to understand?
Prove that it'll appear in hyperspace and affect it, because the Culture ships, being combat ready, will be in hyperspace.
Let's look at the capabilities:

1. Energy can be sent to realign into temporal synch.
2. They can project energy of varying phase variances. From phasers to shields.
3. At the very least, there are warp sustainers for FTL speeds. This is assuming you don't build independent carriers, while you're temporally phased.

There you go.
The Idirans fought the Culture while themselves in hyperspace and their weapons could affect hyperspace. Especially seeing as hyperspace allows someone to be very literally phase-cloaked out of existence versus everyone else.
And phasers have been known to bring things back into phase with reality, such as in VOY: Scientific Method and Distant Origins, where, they pick up the spatial fluctuations of a Voth cloak, noting that there's a modulating phase variance. And Voth tech is uber compared to Fed tech.

Let's look at the scenes:

Initial detection of the observing voth scientists:

[Bridge]

JANEWAY: Report.
CHAKOTAY: We've completed long range scans. If we maintain our present course we'll enter a region of heavy tetryon radiation within two days.
JANEWAY: What's the alternative?
CHAKOTAY: Three month detour.
JANEWAY: Tuvok, enhance the shields. Lieutenant, hold our course. Harry, continue your long range scans.
KIM: Yes ma'am.
JANEWAY: Let's access everything known about tetryon radiation. I want to take every precaution.
GEGEN: Well, Veer, what can you observe about their social structure?
VEER: It's obviously hierarchical, with clear differences in status and rank. The males appear to be subordinate to that female. Perhaps a matriarchy.
GEGEN: My conclusion exactly.
KIM: This is strange, I'm picking up spatial fluctuations. They're coming from the bridge.
CHAKOTAY: Source?
KIM: Not sure, but they're highly localised with modulating phase variance. Looks like some kind of cloaking technology.
JANEWAY: All stop. Intruder alert.
GEGEN: We've exceeded our welcome. Let's get back to the ship.
VEER: What's wrong?
GEGEN: Some sort of forcefield.
TUVOK: I've erected a level ten containment field around the bridge, Captain.
KIM: Scanning on all subspace frequencies. I'm picking up two lifeforms.
CHAKOTAY: Localise them.
KIM: Mission ops one.
VEER: Professor?
GEGEN: The forcefield is disrupting our interphase. I'm compensating. I can at least get us off this deck.
JANEWAY: Show yourselves.
KIM: Captain, the lifeforms left the bridge. They're now on deck two, section thirteen. Mess hall.
CHAKOTAY: Seal off the deck.
TUVOK: Deck two sealed. Security team to the mess hall.


And a very short analysis later:

[Mess hall]

NEELIX: Intruders? I don't see any intruders?
GEGEN: It would appear we've underestimated our endotherms.
VEER: We should make contact, explain ourselves.
GEGEN: It may come to that.

[Bridge]

KIM: Captain, I've analysed the spatial phase variance.
JANEWAY: Bridge to Chakotay.

[Turbolift]

CHAKOTAY: Go ahead.

[Corridor]

JANEWAY [OC]: Adjust hand phasers to a dispersion frequency of one point eight five gigahertz. That should disrupt their cloaking technology.
CHAKOTAY: Acknowledged.


Analysis of what's happening to an apple with a voth peronal cloak, while it's being scanned with your standard tricorder:

[Science Lab]

PARIS: This should do the trick.
TUVOK: An apple.
PARIS: You said you wanted an organic test subject.
TUVOK: I was referring to a bio-cylinder. But the fruit will suffice.
PARIS: Let's give it a try.
TUVOK: Fascinating. This alien device is apparently pushing the apple slightly out of phase with our space-time continuum.
PARIS: A personal cloaking device.
TUVOK: More advanced than any cloak I have ever seen.




The way older and younger universes in the Culture'verse relate to each other seems a lot like how there are multiple sub-groupings of a single universe connected through subspace in the Trek'verse. Take TNG: Schisms:

RIKER
How do we find the source?

GEORDI
That's a good question. The
emissions are coming from a
tertiary subspace domain. But
subspace has an infinite number
of domains...
(beat)
It's like a huge honeycomb with
an endless number of cells. We
need to isolate the exact cell
the emissions are coming from...


The problem they were having is being able to scan all those domains. Being infinte, it'd take time. However, I've never heard of Culture cosmology being that extensive when you're talking about the sections of it being used. There might be an 'infinite number' of universes and antimatter universes and other levels, but I've never heard of jumping between thousands of levels. It all seems to be a small number of them in usual reference. However, they seem to be using the same hyperspace over and over again. There might be a reference that I mssed though.

Narsil
Jedi Knight
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Post by Narsil » Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:37 pm

All right, you know what, I'm not going to bother anymore GStone, for the following reasons;

Phasers don't work over the parsec ranges at which Culture vessels conduct their combat, and don't work over the required speeds and reaction times at which Culture vessels conduct their combat. You can't fire them fast enough to win.

You have repeatedly stated 'trap doors' as your reason for the gravitic energy being the way things work, and completely ignored that the forcefields were only brought down by a ridiculously large amount of gravitic energy. And that the ships defeated were not warships but GCUs, while the Sleeper Service has 90,000 ROU-equivalent drones, making them ridiculously well armed and defended

You have yet to show that they can generate enough gravitic energy to outdo the black holes which do not harm the Culture's ships. You have merely stated it as fact and moved on.

You have also ignored that the maintained openings of the wormholes are not maintained openings but are closer to a simple teleportation method, much closer to space-folding than a conduit. There is no transition time noted for any of the characters who have been displaced, just a very sudden and brief splotch of grey and you're suddenly in the place that the displacement would have aimed you.

You have simply used a Wall of Ignorance debating tactic and you have effectively lost this whole debate. Good day sir, do not bother answering this because you will not recieve a further reply because there is absolutely no point to debating you because your rabid love of Star Trek is sickeningly overwhelming to the point where you're willing to debate a victory for it even in a case like this.

GStone
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Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:40 pm

Narsil wrote:All right, you know what, I'm not going to bother anymore GStone, for the following reasons;
You have said this before, but you keep coming back to try to get me to admit you're right. I have yet to come to that conclusion. So, will you discuss this issue again in the future?
Phasers don't work over the parsec ranges at which Culture vessels conduct their combat, and don't work over the required speeds and reaction times at which Culture vessels conduct their combat. You can't fire them fast enough to win.
Phasers aren't the weapon of choice I'm thinking of, but phasers are not the only things capable of producing energy of phase variances to disrupt other forms of energy. In VOY: Equinox, the shields were used to disrupt the portals made by the invading 'spirits of good fortune'.

My latest theory is that they work on the idea of the double blind slit experiment, where energy is diffracted. The thing causing the forced phase is disrupted, allowing what it is surrounding to become phased in line with the rest of reality. It could be just a straight A+B=C situation, where the interacting energy fields produce the net result of the thing not being phased anymore. Natural phased states might required this to bring them into phase. But, the further things are out of phase, naturally or artificially, the more discriminating the phase variance detector needs to be because of the ever increasingly weaker interaction.

This would require being able to tell the difference between the overlapping energy frequencies, like hearing 2 overlapping voices on an audio file and being able to tell them apart.

The differences in intensity settings (like gigahertz and megahertz-not setting level 1 or 6) are not necessarily for things of greater and greater intensities of being out of phase, but just what's required to disrupt/alter the phased thing/the field causing the phase. I just thought about it at the end of my last post in this thread, so I haven't had a chance to really do a lot of research on it, but it's got a shot for an explanation and might explain how matter and energy is shifted out of the continuum on the vaporize settings, be part of the backstage explanation that phaser beams are a combination of phaser particles and EM energy and allow for the notion that the idea of phasers has some initial basis in reality, but function on 'funky physics'. Where 'funky physics' is defined as some unknown set of phsyics to modern knowledge or is an unknown application of known physics.
You have repeatedly stated 'trap doors' as your reason for the gravitic energy being the way things work, and completely ignored that the forcefields were only brought down by a ridiculously large amount of gravitic energy.
I did say the gravitational energy would become temporally in synch on the inside of the ships, not outside the ships and have to get through the fields outside.
And that the ships defeated were not warships but GCUs, while the Sleeper Service has 90,000 ROU-equivalent drones, making them ridiculously well armed and defended
But, none protect the inside of ships from gravitational energy.
You have yet to show that they can generate enough gravitic energy to outdo the black holes which do not harm the Culture's ships.
That level for the trapdoors -- not the fields outside ship, remember -- is enough. You don't need a black hole level amount. Just enough to cause the ship to no longer be of use.
You have merely stated it as fact and moved on.
Well, I do try to say things in different ways.
You have also ignored that the maintained openings of the wormholes are not maintained openings but are closer to a simple teleportation method, much closer to space-folding than a conduit.
The openings are open for as long as the thing being transported is still being transported, which itself is a distortion of space-time, requiring FTL travel. But, opeing up a 'conduit' (for lack of a better term) is what I was saying is different. Have they displayed a controlled barzan wormhole-like type of situation where the entrance and exit points can move from place to place without closing the opened conduit and creating another, so the end points are in different places?
There is no transition time noted for any of the characters who have been displaced, just a very sudden and brief splotch of grey and you're suddenly in the place that the displacement would have aimed you.
Which would be part of the displacement process, not a sustained conduit.
You have simply used a Wall of Ignorance debating tactic and you have effectively lost this whole debate.
I have ignored nothing of what you've said. What I have done is point out that you can't combine 2 different things and say they are the same when they aren't.
Good day sir, do not bother answering this because you will not recieve a further reply because there is absolutely no point to debating you
This has happened before with you.
because your rabid love of Star Trek is sickeningly overwhelming to the point where you're willing to debate a victory for it even in a case like this.
I love logic more than Trek. And I like the tech better than the stories.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:06 pm

Could someone summarize, in simpler terms, what the tricks, tactics and eventually technobabble weapons are used on both sides, and how they can be defeated or nullified?

The Culture is always presented under its best side, and it's clearly at an advantage with all reactions and decisions apparently processed within milliseconds, all weapon launched after that.

They have FTL, they fight in their version of hyperspace, they can attack from hyperspace while remaining inside apparently. They use conduits or so? What do they do? Open holes in the conduits or what?

They have drones (what are they?), each one able to blast a star.
Their spaceships, apparently huge and all that, can accelerate and the sheer ejecta of the engines can burn the surface of a world.
Well, okay, that sounds impressive, but if the engine itself is hyper huge... it's obviously going to torch a large area of a world if it's close to it.

It's weird, because I'm sure I heard that for all their advantages, Culture ships were slow or something.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:15 pm

There was a thread on strek-v-swars that had the initial Culture-Trek debate between me and Narsil. I downloaded the pages, so that I could set up my own site for that particular debate when I had the chance and after I read the novels, but I've been busy with other stuff to get that on the ground. There was, however, one poster by the name of herzeleid who was a wealth of information. He knew the Culture'verse inside and out. When I get to the computer later that has those files on it, I can post our exchanges, which do go into a bit of detail of what you're asking for.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:56 pm

Me and herzeleid did get into a lot of specifics for tech, tactics, MO, etc.. I was going for as complete a picture as possible, so I've taken out all the other people besides me and him. There will be several posts.

herzeleid
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 29

Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
Even, if it's talking about a small planet, like our own, it would be an impressive blast. Does anyone know how the blast
would work? Would it be brute force of the generators attached to it or some weird energy manipulation that's unleashed?



The Mind was stated to mass 15 thousand tonnes. "Annihilatory destruct" implies mass-energy conversion, in the range of 1.35e24 J.

Quote:
Some context seems to be missing. What's the SC? Are they talking about all thought in a given timeframe that's short?
Give me enough time and I can have all thoughts.



SC is Special Circumstances, the "dirty tricks" section of Contact, the organization that deals with the Cultures contact with and occasional
manipulation of other civilizations. This quote does not refer to any particular capabilities, but of ideology; Special Circumstances is a vast
amorphous entity within which there is no globally enforced ideology.

Quote:
With this, I'm assuming a star, like ours, since it says sun. Is this with or without energy shields?



Under normal circumstances, a ship's fields are always active and form a significant part of its overall structure, especially with Systems
Vehicles.

Quote:
Several trillion kilometers. All weapons or certain ones?



Virtually all of them.

Quote:
Obliterate planets from beyond their own system how? Displaced CAMs?



Displaced CAM and nanoholes, unnamed "bombs too small to see that could tear their planet apart" which were mentioned in The State of
the Art , Gridfire, perhaps gravitational weaponry like lineguns and pancakers can do it as well.

Quote:
Make stars go nova from light years away with the graviton cannon or something else?



The mechanisms used for stellar destruction are never stated in the books to my knowledge.

Quote:
1. The 2,000 km of transparent wall that was melting, how was it in relation to what was using the gridfire? Was the wall
straight or curved some way? Was the beginning of the wall closest to what was causing gridfire to appear and the end of
the wall furthest from what was causing the gridfire to appear or was it like the entire wall surface faced what was making
gridfire appear?
2. Is the shape of an Orbital circular? What's its size?



Orbitals are essentially scaled down ringworlds, which orbit a star rather than encompassing it. Vavatch had a circumference of 14 million
kilometers.



Quote:
Hyperspace is between the older and younger universes, but closer to real space. Does this mean you still interact with real
space or not?



Here is a diagram of the universe's structure.

Code:
etc

grid (grid two positive?)

hyperspace (ultraspace two positive)

skein (antimatter dominated)

hyperspace (ultraspace one negative)

grid (grid one positive?)

hyperspace (ultraspace one positive)

skein (matter dominated) <---------- you are here

hyperspace (infraspace one negative)

grid (grid one negative?)

hyperspace (infraspace one positive)

skein (antimatter dominated)

hyperspace (infraspace two negative)

grid (grid two negative?)

etc



Each skein of realspace is a three dimensional plane sandwiched between two 4D hypervolumes. For an object in hyperspace to directly
interact with realspace, it would have to intersect the skein.

Quote:
Travel time is 10 LY/hr, thought of as fast and FTL engines are 200 meters. Is this length, height?





Considered fast as of Consider Phlebas. As of Excession, 500 years later, the fastest ships are capable of ~300,000 c. 200 meters would
be the length of the entire ship.


Quote:
What about the trapdoor? I've heard it shunts energy away, but that it doesn't work on gravity? Does anyone know of any
text quotes for this or is this generally thought of as true, so the trapdoor doesn't shunt away the gravity of what it is trying
to protect and screw it up?



The trapdoor system is only directly seen and described once in the books, in Use of Weapons.

"Something flickered in the traveltube, and a capsule was suddenly there, door rolling open. 'What's this... trapdoor coverage, anyway?' he
asked the machine.

'General Systems Vehicle internal explosion protection,' the drone explained, letting the humans board the capsule first. 'Snaps anything
significantly more powerful than a fart straight into hyperspace; blast, radiation; the lot.'

'Shit,' he said, disgusted. 'You mean you can let nukes off in these fuckers and they don't even notice?'

The drone wobbled. 'They notice; probably nobody else does.'"

There is no other description of the trapdoor system given.

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herzeleid
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Posts: 29

Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:05 am Post subject:


Certainly one of the most dangerous weapons the Culture has is the Effector.

Summary of basic abilities: Manipulate biological nervous systems to cause pain, paralysis and take control of individual body parts. Read
and control biological or artificial brains; manipulate them to cause vivid dreams, alter their perception of events around them, place them
within realistic full-sensory hallucinations. Manipulate electronic, photonic and atomic mechanical systems. Remove energy from or add
energy to an object (suck and blow settings). Lightyear ranges. Can be targetted from hyperspace to realspace and vice versa, or across
the skein from one hypervolume to the other.

As for the rate at which effectors can subvert humans:

In Excession, during its 11 microsecond-long battle with the Pittance fleet, the ROU Killing Time subverted two other Minds and forced
them to commit suicide. Assuming that it takes five ?s for one Mind to subvert another, and that it takes the same time for a Mind to
subvert a human or equivalent, disregarding difference in structure and volume, a Mind would be able to subvert 200 000 humans in one
second.

The volume of a Mind is approximately 30 m³; a human brain is 1500 cm³. Assuming half the Mind's volume is dedicated to the thinking
parts, it would be ten thousand times more voluminous than a human brain. Again assuming five ?s, and the same work per volume to
subvert a human, and disregarding difference in structure, it would take a Mind approximately 500 picoseconds to subvert one human,
giving a sustained rate of up to two billion humans per second.

A Mind's thinking parts are stated to be very dense. Assuming 75% of a Mind's mass is composed of these parts, they would mass
11,250 tonnes. A human brain masses ~1.5 kg, making the Mind 7.5 million times more massive. Assuming the same work per mass to
subvert a human and disregarding the differences in structure at the molecular level and below, it would take a Mind approximately 600
femtoseconds to subvert one human, giving a sustained rate of up to 1.5 trillion subversions per second.


The relevant quotes from the books:

Consider Phlebas:

Quote:
"He was looking at the resulting image on an internal screen when it flickered and went out, the suit's hissings and hummings
stopped, and the stars started to fade away.
'Sapping/effector/fi...re...' said the suit, as it and Horza went limp and unconscious."
[...]
"'Our effector won't have damaged it, will it?' Another male; young sounding, cutting across what the woman had said.
'It was on suck, not blow,' the captain said, or whatever he was."
[...]
"'Wubslin,' (he turned to one of the other men) 'isn't that effector working properly?'
[...]
He cleared his throat and spoke as loudly and as determinedly as he could. 'There's nothing wrong with your effector.
'Then,' the tall man said, smiling thinly and arching one eyebrow, 'you should be dead."'



Quote:
"Idir was never attacked, and technically never surrendered. Its computer network was taken over by effector weapons,
and - freed of designed-in limitations - upgraded itself to sentience, to become a Culture Mind in all but name."



Excession:

Quote:
"And now he could feel something inside his head.
Whatever it was inside his head got him to close his eyes.
[...]
Who are you? What gives you the right to crawl inside my brains?
~ My name would be something like Gray Area in your language. What gives me the right to crawl inside your brains, as
you put it, is the same thing which gave you the right to do what you did to those you murdered; power. Superior power.
Vastly superior power, in my case."



Quote:
"The Gray Area. The ship that did what the other ships both deplored and despised; actually looked into the minds of other
people, using its Electromagnetic Effectors - in a sense the very, very distant descendants of electronic countermeasures
equipment from your average stage-three civilization, and the most sophisticated, powerful but also precisely controllable
weaponry the average Culture ship possessed - to burrow into the grisly cellular substrate of an animal consciousness and
try to make sense of what it found there..."



Quote:
"~ Suit? Genar-Hofoen thought.
~ What is it? said the gelfield. I thought you were talking to--
~ Never mind that now. See that blue scratchound?
~ Can't take my or your eyes off the damn thing.
~ Effectorize the fucker. Get it off the other one.
~ I can't do that! That would be cheating!
~ Fivetide's ass is hanging way out the merry-go-round on this, suit. Do it now or take personal responsibility for a major
diplomatic incident. Up to you.
~ What? But--
~Effectorize it now, suit. Come on; I know that last upgrade let you sneak it under the monitors. Oh! Look at that. Ow!
Can't you just feel those prosthetics around your neck? Fivetide must be kissing his diplomatic career good bye right now;
probably already working out a way to challenge me to a duel. After that, doesn't really matter if I kill him or he kills me;
probably come to war between--
~ All right! All right! There!

There was a buzzing sensation on top of Genar-Hofoen's right shoulder. The red scratchound jerked, the blue one doubled
up around its midriff and loosened its grip. The red collared beast wriggled out from underneath the other and, twisting,
turned on the other beast and immediately reversed the situation, fastening its prosthetic jaws around the throat of the
blue-collared animal."



Quote:
""The Killer-Class Limited Offensive Unit Attitude Adjuster," the drone said in a matter-of-fact, almost bored-sounding
voice. "Not a type we have here."
[...]
The ship was stopped now, almost filling the screen. The stars wheeled slowly behind it.

"Well, I--" the drone said, then stopped. The screen on the far side of the room flickered.
The drone's aura field flicked off. It fell out of the air, bouncing off the seat beside Gestra and toppling heavily, lifelessly, to
the floor.

Gestra stared at it. A voice like a sigh said, "... sssave yourssselfff..." then the lights dimmed, there was a buzzing noise from
all around Gestra and a tiny tendril of smoke leaked out of the top of the drone's casing."



Quote:
"Gestra Ishmethit, his mind-state plucked from his dying brain in the evacuated cold of the warship halls in Pittance by the
guilt-stricken Attitude Adjuster, appropriated from that craft just before it destroyed itself by the attacking Killing Time and
subsequently passed on until it came to rest in the restocked memory vaults of the Sleeper Service, had also been woken
up and furnished with a new body by that time; death had neither improved his social skills nor sated his urge for solitude
and he, too, had asked to remain aboard the giant ship.



Quote:
"A flat screen to the Commander's left wavered, as if some still-greater power surge had sucked energy even from within its
protected circuits. A message flicked up on it:

~ Missed, you fuckers! the legend read.
[...]
~ And run a total level-zero systems check of your own equipment; if the ship was able to insert a message into your
command desk, it may have been able to carry out more pertinent mischief therein."



Quote:
"Besides, when they'd finally released him from the chair he'd been secured to while he'd been unconscious, the drone had
shown him an old but shinily mean looking knifemissile it contained within its casing and given him a brief but nasty stinging
sensation in his left little finger that it assured him was about a thousandth of the the pain its effector was capable of inflicting
upon him if he tried anything silly."



Quote:
"The argument went on. The ship's slave-drone looked from the girl to the elderly drone and then back again. It rose once
in the air fractionally, then settled back down again. It swiveled to Genar-Hofoen. "Excuse me," it said quietly.

Genar-Hofoen nodded.

The drone Churt Lyne was cut off in mid-sentence and floated gently down to the floor of the hangar. Ulver Seich scowled,
furious. Then she understood. She turned on the slave-drone, whirling round and jabbing a finger at it. "How da-"

The visor plate of her suit clanked shut; her suit powered down to statuelike immobility."



Quote:
"The Killing Time's effector focus was a few ships away now, spiraling out toward the Attitude Adjuster. It signaled
hurriedly to the five Rapid Offensive Units immediately around it. Each listened, understood, and obeyed. The Killing
Time's effector focus flicked from craft to craft, still coming closer.
[...]
The surrounding warships completed their changes. Just in time. When the attacking ship's effector targeted the first of
those craft, the focus did not flit on to the next as it had with all the rest; instead it stayed, latching on, concentrating and
strengthening. The ROU caved in alarmingly quickly; the Attitude Adjuster guessed that it was made to reconfigure its
engine feilds to focus them inside its Mind-there was a sort of signaled shriek an instant before its communication was
lost-but the exact nature of its downfall was hidden in an accompanying shower of CAM warheads which obliterated it
instantaneously. A mercy; it would have been a grisly way to die."



Quote:
"it had allowed the human on Pittance to be destroyed (but it had fastened its effector on his puny animal brain when it had
seen what was happening to him; it had read the animal's brain-state, copied it, sucked it out of him before he'd died, so
that at least he might live again in some form! Look! it had the file here...there it went...)"



Quote:
"As the drone approached the suit it raised one arm toward the fleeing machine. To a human the arm would have appeared
to move almost impossibly quickly, flicking up at the machine, but to the drone the gesture looked languid, almost leisurely;
surely this could not be all the threat the suit was capable of--

The drone had only the briefest warning of the suit's holstered gun exploding; until that instant the gun hadn't even been
apparent to the machine's senses, shielded somehow. There was no time to stop, no opportunity to use its own EM effector
on the gun's controls to prevent it from overloading, nowhere to take cover, and - in the thick mist of gasses flooding the
corridor - no way of accelerating beyond the danger."



Quote:
"Eventually a heavy maintenance unit, about the size of a human torso and escorted by a trio of small self-motivated effector
sidearms, appeared at the far end of the vertical companionway above it and floated down through the currents of climbing
gas until they were directly over the small, pocked, smoking and splintered casing of the drone. The effector weapons' aim
had stayed locked onto the drone the whole way down.

Then one of the guns powered up and fired at the small machine.

Shit. Bit summary, dammit... the drone had time to think.

But the effector was powered only enough to produce a two-way communication channel.
[...]
The drone thought about lying, but now it could feel the effector weapon in its mind, and knew that not only the weapon
and the maintenance drone but the ship and whatever had taken over all of them could see it was thinking about lying...
[...]
Silence for a moment. Then,
~ I see. The displacer copied your mind-state to the machine it ejected. That was why we found your twin so handily
placed to intercept you when we realized you were not yet ours and there might be a way out via the displacer.
[...]
But with that, the effector weapon altered its setup momentarily, and - in effect - sucked the little machine's intellect out of
its ruined and smoldering body."



Quote:
"There was a sort of buzzing sensation from somewhere; Genar-Hofoen felt his legs go numb. The woman collapsed over
his legs. He felt sick. Lines of red dots crossing the sky floated behind his eyelids when they closed.
[...]
The cloak went rigid beneath him and floated into the air, wrapping round him. He cried out and tried to fight against its
enclosing black folds, but the buzzing came again and his vision faded even before the cloak finished wrapping iself round
him.



The Player of Games:

Quote:
The next thing he knew he'd been shoved down into the grass…
[…]
…as though shoulder-charged by someone invisible. He stared at amazement at the tiny machine floating above him…
[…]
He went limp. The shout died in his mouth.
[…]
He could move his eyes. Nothing else. He remembered the missile shoot and the immobility the suit had imposed on him
when it had been hit once too often. This was worse. This was paralysis.
[…]
The machine darted down towards his face; he felt his coat collar pulled. His head and upper torso were lifted with a jerk
from the damp ground until he stared helplessly at the grey-blue casing of the small machine. Pocket-size, he thought,
wishing he could blink, and glad of the rain because he could not. Pocket-size; it would fit into one of the big pockets in this
coat.
[…]
'My sensory systems, my weapons, my very memory-capacity; all reduced, laid waste: crippled. I peek into shells in a
Stricken game, I push you down with an eight-strength field and hold you there with an excuse for an electro-magnetic
effector … but this is nothing, Jernau Gurgeh; nothing.'"



Quote:
"But he did discover that a drone like Mahwrin-Skel, even in civilianised form, was capable of sustaining a one way
real-time link with such a ship over millennia distances, so long as the ship was watching out for the signal and knew where
to look.
[…]
From what he could tell from the information he'd discovered, Mawhrin-Skel's claim that the Mind had recorded their
conversation would not hold up if the ship was more than about twenty millennia away…"



Quote:
"'How far away is it from here?' 'Hey; calm down. It's about two and a half millennia away.'
[…]
Two thousand five hundred light years. It was, as the urbanely well-travelled people on a GSV would say, a long walk. But
close enough -by quite a long way- for a warship to minutely target an effector, throw a sensing field a light-second in
diameter across the sky, and pick up the weak but indisputable flicker of coherent HS light coming from a machine small
enough to fit into a pocket."



Quote:
"The ship saluted too, using its effectors to produce artificial auroras; roaring, shifting folds of light in the clear still air above
it."



Use of Weapons:

Quote:
"The drone sensed odd brain wave patterns.
[…]
The drone monitored the man's brain activity and blood flow and thought there was trouble coming.
[…]
'Aneurysm!' the drone said quickly, and slipped through the air, past Sma to the bed, where the man was shaking
spastically. It scanned him more thoroughly; found a massive blood vessel leakage pouring into the man's brain.

It whirled him round, straightened him out, used its effector to make him unconscious.
[…]
He stopped breathing. Skaffen-Amtiskaw used another aspect of its force field to keep his chest moving in and out, while
its effector gently persuaded the muscles that opened his lungs to work again
[…]
His heart stopped; the drone kept it going with its effector.
[…]
It stripped away the layers of the man's brain with its own senses; cortex, limbic, thalamus/cerebellum, it moved through his
defences and armaments, down his throroughfares and ways, through the stores and the lands of his memories, searching
and mapping and tapping and searing.
[…]
It sucked more blood to decrease the man's blood pressure, used its effector to alter the settings in the appropriate glands,
so that the pressure would not grow so great again for a while."



Quote:
"They must have been hit by some crude effector weapon as well, because the plasma rifle seemed to have fused. It had
been cradled between his suit and the capsule skin and couldn't have been affected by whatever wrecked the capsule itself,
but the weapon had smoked and got hot, and when they'd finally landed - Beychae shaken but unhurt - and opened the
gun's inspection panels, it was to find a melted, still warm mess inside."



Quote:
"He watched through the stone balustrade , scanning the group with the suit's built-in effector and watching the results on
the visor-screen head-up. Thirty plus of the people were carrying what were in effect terminals; links to the planet's
communications net. The suit's computer covertly interrogated the terminals through the effector. Two of the terminals were
switched on; one receiving a sports broadcast, another receiving music. The rest were on stand-by.

'Suit,' he whispered (not that even Tsoldrin, right beside him, could have heard him, let alone the people in the tourist group.
'I want to disable those terminals, quietly; to stop them from transmitting.'
'Two receiving terminals are transmitting location code,' the suit said.
'Can I disable their transmit function without altering their present location code function, or their present reception?'
'Yes.'
'Right; the priority being preventing any further new signals, disable all the terminals.'
'Disabling all thirty-four non-Culture personal commnet terminals within range; confirm.'
'Confirmed, dammit; do it...'
'Order carried out.'

He watched the head-up alter as the internal power-states of the terminals sank back to near zero.
[…]
'Suit; patch into the aircraft; assume control without letting anyone else know'



Quote:
"They moved along a staff-only corridor, through two security doors which swung open for them even before they got to
them, then - after a pause - came out into a huge crowded concourse full of people, screens, kiosks and seats. Nobody
noticed them, because a moving walkway had just slammed to a stop, toppling dozens of people on top of each other.

A security camera in the left luggage area swung up to look at the ceiling for the minute it took them to deposit the suitcase
with the suit in it. The instant they'd gone, the camera resumed its slow sweeping.

More or less the same happened when they picked up their tickets at the appropriate desk. Then, while they were walking
along another corridor, they saw a party of armed security guards enter from the other end.

He just kept on walking. He sensed Beychae hesitate at his side. He turned, smiled easily at the other man, and when he
turned back, the guards were stopped, the leading guard holding one hand to his ear and looking at the floor; he nodded,
turned and pointed to a side corridor; the guards set off down it.

'We're not just being incredibly lucky, I take it?' Beychae muttered.

He shook his head. 'Not unless you count it as incredibly lucky that we've got a near military-standard electro-magnetic
effector controlled by a hyper-fast starship Mind working this entire port like an arcade game from a light-year or so off,
no.'"



Look to Windward:

Quote:
"The order came to attack the flock of birds. The drone instigated a prey-rich-environment targeting regime, but then
another order countermanded the first and told it to attack a group of three more defense drones which had just risen from
the nearest seastack. It curved away, zooming to gain height.

Lasers flickered from cupolas high on two of the seastacks, but the flock of birds had become a swarm of insects; the
weapon light found few of them and those it did simply reflected it. Then the two laser towers began to fire on each other,
and both exploded in balls of flame.

The first drone attacked the other three as they spread out and accelerated toward the swarm of insects. It shot down one
before it was itself destroyed. Then the other two drones attacked each other, swooping in and ramming at high speed in a
flash and a single sharp detonation of sound; much of the resulting wreckage was composed of pieces small enough to drift
on the wind. Several small- and medium-sized explosions shook each of the seastacks, and smoke began to drift across the
blue sky.

The insect swarm collected on a broad balcony and resumed the form of a Chelgrian female. She knocked the balcony
doors down and stepped into the room. Alarms warbled. She frowned and they fell silent. The only sensory or command
system not fully under her control was a tiny passive camera in one corner of the room. She was to leave the complex's
security monitoring system uncorruputed, so that what was done here was seen to be done, and recorded.."



The State of the Art:

Quote:
"Meanwhile its effectors, and those on its main satellites, probed every computer, monitored every landline, tapped every
microwave link, and listened to every radio transmission on Earth."





Here is an excerpt from Excession, showing what Attitude Adjuster experienced as it was interrogated and subverted by Killing Time:

Quote:
It had originally contacted the five nearest ships, hoping that the first one found and interrogated by the attacker's systems
would fool the Killing Time into believing it had found the one ship it was obviously seeking.

But that was stupid. It sensed the Torturer-class ship's effectors sweep over the craft on the far side of the hole in the wave
of ships which the ROU's destruction had created.

Insufficient elasped time, the Attitude Adjuster whispered to itself. The ROU being quizzed at the moment was still
reconfiguring its internal systems signature to resemble that of the Attitude Adjster. The effector sweep flicked away from it,
dismissing. The Attitude Adsuster quailed.

It had made itself a target! It should have-HERE IT CAME!

A feeling of-

No, it had gone, swept over it! Its own disguise had worked. It had been dismissed, too, like the ROU alongside!

The effector jumped to another craft still further away. The Attitude Adjuster was dizzy with relief. It had survived! The
plan still held, the huge filthy trick they were pulling was free to continue!

The way to the Excession lay open; the other Minds in the conspiracy would commend it if it survived; the-... but it mustn't
think of the other ships involved. It had to accept responsibility for what had happened. It and it alone. It was the traitor. It
would never reveal who had instigated this ghastly, gigadeathcrime-risking scheme; it had to assume the blame itself.

It had wrestled with the Mind at Pittance and pressed it when it had insisted it would die rather than yield (but it had had no
choice!); it had allowed the human on Pittance to be destroyed (but it had fastened its effector on his puny animal brain
when it had seen what was happening to him; it had read the animal's brain-state, copied it, sucked it out of him before he'd
died, so that at least he might live again in some form! Look! it had the file here...there it went...). It had fooled the
surrounding ships, it had lied to them, sent them messages from...from the ships it could not bear to think about.

But it was the right thing to do!

...Or was it just the thing it had chosen to believe was the right thing to do, when the other ships, the other Minds had
persuaded it? What had its real motives been? Had it not just been flattered to be the object of such attention? Had it not
always resented being passed over for certain small but prestigious missions in the past, nursing bitter resentment that it was
not trusted because it was seen as being-what? A hard-liner? Too inclined to shoot first? Too cynical toward the soft
ideologies of the meat-beings? Too mixed up in its feelings about its own martial prowess and the shaming moral
implications of being a machine for war? All those things, a little, perhaps. But that wasn't all its fault!

... And yet, did it not accept that one had an irreducible ethical responsibility for one's own actions? It did. And it accepted
that and it had done terrible, terrible things. All the attempts it had made to compensate had been eddies in the flood; tiny
retrograde movements toward good entirely produced by the ferocious turbulence of its headlong rush to ill.

It was evil.

How simple that reductive conclusion seemed.

But it had been obliged!... and yet it could not identify them, and so the full weight of their distributed guilt bore down on
the single point that was itself, unbearable.

But there were others!... And yet, still it could not bear to think of them.

And to somebody, some other entity, looking in from the outside, say, would have to conclude, would it not, that perhaps
these others did not really exist, that the whole thing, the whole ghastly abomination that was this plot was its idea, its own
little conspiracy, thought up and executed by itself alone? Was that not the case?

But that was so unfair! That wasn't true!... And yet, it could not release the identities of its fellow plotters. Suddenly it felt
confused. Had it made them up? Were they real? Perhaps it ought to check; open the place where they were stored and
look at the names of real Minds, real ships, or that it was not implicating innocent parties.

But that was terrible! Whichever way it fell after that, that was awful! It hadn't made them up! They were real!... But it
couldn't prove it because it just couldn't reveal them.

Maybe it ought to just call the whole thing off. Maybe it ought to signal the other ships around it to break away, stop,
retreat, or just open their comm channels so they could accept the signals from other ships, other Minds, and be persuaded
of the folly of their cause. Let them make up their own minds, They were intelligent beings no less than it. What right had it
to send intelligent beings to their deaths on the strength of a heinous, squalid lie? But it had to!... And yet, still, no; no it
couldn't say who the others had been.

It mustn't think of them! And it couldn't possibly call off them attack! It couldn't! No! NO! No! Greif! Meat! Stop! Stop it!
Let it go ! Sweet nothingness, anything was better than this wracking, tearing uncertainty, any horror preferable to the
wrenching dreadfullness boiling uncontrolably in its Mind.

Atrocity. Abomination. Gigadeathcrime.

It was worthless and hateful, despicable and foul; it was wrung out, exhausted and incapable of revelation or
communication. It hated itself and what it had done more, much more than it had ever hated anything; more, it was sure,
than anything had ever been hated in all existance. No death could be too painful or protracted...

And suddenly it knew what it had to do.

It de-coupled its engine fields from the energy grid and plunged those vortices of pure energy deep into the fabric of its own
Mind, tearing its intellect apart in a supernova of sentient agony.


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Rakaia
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Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 3

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:


Ahh, I know I'm really new and all, but, isn't this a bit ridiculous? From the sound of it, The Culture would be able to win with almost no
effort. Regardless of what the engineers can alter and amplify, wouldn't Trek have been destroyed before they even knew they were in
danger? How much proof is needed to prove a point to you? From the look of it, they've swamped you with proof while you haven't really
done anything but try to discredit it by questioning it with something that sounds like it's completely irrelevant.
Or will you keep harping at it until the other people get sick of fighting with you and just leave the thread?
I know I'm a complete newb to this forum, but I've been to others, and this is progressively going downhill...

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dakarne
User


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 2915
Location: England,
Scoffing Commoners
with some Fava Beans
and a Nice Chianti
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:38 am Post subject:


(pokes the newb)

I only started the thread as revenge for Star Trek: Nemesis...

I'm moving on to punishing Star Wars for Jar Jar Binks next...
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GStone
User


Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:46 am Post subject:


Rakaia wrote:
Ahh, I know I'm really new and all, but, isn't this a bit ridiculous? From the sound of it, The Culture would be able to win
with almost no effort. Regardless of what the engineers can alter and amplify, wouldn't Trek have been destroyed before
they even knew they were in danger? How much proof is needed to prove a point to you? From the look of it, they've
swamped you with proof while you haven't really done anything but try to discredit it by questioning it with something that
sounds like it's completely irrelevant.
Or will you keep harping at it until the other people get sick of fighting with you and just leave the thread?
I know I'm a complete newb to this forum, but I've been to others, and this is progressively going downhill...



1. The proof that keeps being provided is on tech development, but never anything that would let the Culture hit a phased Fed ship. It
doesn't matter how far away you can blow up a star, if you can't even touch your opponet when they're right in front of you.

2. The proof I would need would be evidence the Culture can scan things in different realities other than their hyperspace and maybe, if
they had the tech to bring phased things out of phase, such as when 7 brought that scientist back in phase that was part of the group doing
experiments on them. The Culture can't use Fed equipment, because that violates the rules of the v debate. There are known limits to what
they know and can do, otherwise they'd find a way for the trapdoors to shunt gravitational force, too.

3. Many of the pro-Culture side say that the Fed would be so quickly wiped out, but no proof is given that shows they would just pounce
on the Federation, like that or that they move around, like that in such a quick fashion.

Let's say that the Culture did do a surprise attack and the Feds had absolutely no warning. They are still spread out and not everyone of
the Federation is actually in Fed territory at any one time. I'm not saying allies would be brought in because that goes against 1v1 versus
fights, but there are spies, ambassadors, etc. in other territories. Even the Culture can't account for every Fed all the time and you can't
guarentee that that those outside of Fed territory could pull off the scenario. I can't guarentee it either, but I'm not dismissing the possibility
and I'm not necessarily talking about Section 31, either. It could be a regular scientist.

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dakarne
User


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 2915
Location: England,
Scoffing Commoners
with some Fava Beans
and a Nice Chianti
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject:


Quote:
1. The proof that keeps being provided is on tech development, but never anything that would let the Culture hit a phased
Fed ship. It doesn't matter how far away you can blow up a star, if you can't even touch your opponet when they're right in
front of you.



Gridfire works on multidimensional energy... proof that it can't hit a phased fed ship? In fact, proof that the Fed ships will be using phase
cloaks altogether outside of your own erotic fantasies would be nice as well.

Quote:
2. The proof I would need would be evidence the Culture can scan things in different realities other than their hyperspace
and maybe, if they had the tech to bring phased things out of phase, such as when 7 brought that scientist back in phase that
was part of the group doing experiments on them. The Culture can't use Fed equipment, because that violates the rules of
the v debate. There are known limits to what they know and can do, otherwise they'd find a way for the trapdoors to shunt
gravitational force, too.



The Federation can't use Culture tech either...

The point is, the Federation won't see them coming until it's too late... I've seen trekwanking before, but this is rediculous... no one agrees
with you, not even the Pro-Trek debators or Darkstar agree with you... You're making reasonable up to justify that Trek is supposedly
unbeatable... Why didn't they use the Phase Tech to beat the Scimitar? Also, you have no proof that the Torpedoes were even phased
besides the NAME!!! And we all know how unreliable weapon names are... look at Turbolasers.

Quote:
3. Many of the pro-Culture side say that the Fed would be so quickly wiped out, but no proof is given that shows they
would just pounce on the Federation, like that or that they move around, like that in such a quick fashion.



ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND???

The Culture attack from ranges in the several thousand Lightyears... and they wield weapons capable of destroying stars from that long
distances... there's no way that the Federation can survive... you're just making reasonable claims up which have no bearing on Trek CANON,
now shut up and stop butchering Trek, Arsehole.

Quote:
Let's say that the Culture did do a surprise attack and the Feds had absolutely no warning. They are still spread out and not
everyone of the Federation is actually in Fed territory at any one time. I'm not saying allies would be brought in because that
goes against 1v1 versus fights, but there are spies, ambassadors, etc. in other territories. Even the Culture can't account for
every Fed all the time and you can't guarentee that that those outside of Fed territory could pull off the scenario. I can't
guarentee it either, but I'm not dismissing the possibility and I'm not necessarily talking about Section 31, either. It could be
a regular scientist.



Other than the ability to detect a penlight from several thousand lightyears away... no... there is no proof that they can detect the
Federation...
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dakarne
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Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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Location: England,
Scoffing Commoners
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject:


http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~stefan/culture.html

GStone...

Read this, come back... The Culture's Idea of Utopia is a shitload more impressive than the Federation's... so why you're sticking up for
the Federation even in that department, I've got no Idea
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GStone
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Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject:


Quote:
Gridfire works on multidimensional energy... proof that it can't hit a phased fed ship?



Gridfire works on targets in real space? Yes. In hyperspace? I don't know, but the phase I'm talking about would be that which is used to
move from 1 parallel reality to another, not switching between older and younger universes of the same reality.

I've never heard of gridfire hitting targets in a parallel reality not connected the the main universe that would have the Federation in it, where
the Culture attacks.

Quote:
In fact, proof that the Fed ships will be using phase cloaks altogether outside of your own erotic fantasies would be nice as
well.



The scenario is hardly erotic.

I have already gone over the use of a phase shifter that moves you between realities with Roondar. Read that post. I could have the
opposite scenario where the Feds attack with one ship using a "phasing drive" and no Feds are killed, but I'm gonna go with the Culture
attacking.

Quote:
The Federation can't use Culture tech either...



And? I never even implide they could.

Quote:
The point is, the Federation won't see them coming until it's too late...



Based on what? Their long distance ranges? How late is 'too late'? As I said earlier, even the Culture can't account for every movement of
all Fed people. Many aren't in Fed territory or on the same side of the galaxy.

Quote:
I've seen trekwanking before, but this is rediculous... no one agrees with you, not even the Pro-Trek debators or Darkstar
agree with you...



1. I don't make theories based on popularity. I don't give a shit, if I never hear of someone agreeing with me on this. I can live my life
without hearing it. I don't need praise from others to bolster my ego on this. If someone says they agree, that's fine, too. That's up to them.

2. Did you actually take a poll or are you just assuming? I'm betting you're just assuming. Plus, Darkstar is too busy being a hurricane
survivor right now to worry about a debate between any franchises (though his general attitude towards debating these days is more
towards not getting involved than not), unless you spoke to him personally.

I know I haven't spoken to him about it and even though we agree on almost everything in Trek v Wars, I haven't a clue what he would
feel about my scenario, but I am perfectly capable of defending my argument. Numbers aren't important to me.

Quote:
You're making reasonable up to justify that Trek is supposedly unbeatable...



Hardly. I've never said they were unbeatable. You do like to make these claims about me without much justification, as well as thinking I
might come up with a way to beat the Timelords with Trek when a versus debate can't take place between them because much of
Timelord tech is unknown. I had already looked into it long ago. They have impressive stuff, but most is unknown, at least the TV stuff. I
haven't seen anything to say the spin off stuff is canon. So, that debate is unknown at that point.

You may like the idea of using just brute force, but that is a very limited versus discussion that doesn't take a debate to all its possibilities. If
you are able to show the Culture using "parallel reality tech", we can discuss that and see how it would impact the scenario I've posted.

Quote:
Why didn't they use the Phase Tech to beat the Scimitar? Also, you have no proof that the Torpedoes were even phased
besides the NAME!!! And we all know how unreliable weapon names are... look at Turbolasers.



As was previously stated, either to you or someone else, Voyager had only been back a short time and there is no indication Temporal
Investigations took that technology away. Plus, as I said in the post I originally wrote the scenario in, there is more evidence that it could be
a device that phases with reality (such as the cube blowing up after we stop seeing torp shield glow, I believe) and the Federation's ability
to detect phased objects (interphasic organisms feeding off the crew and didn't notice the buggers themselves without equipment) and
openings that allow phased objects to "unphase" (the spirits of good fortune').

I don't need the name at all, which I have already gone over that it may not be accurate for determining the torp's function.

Perhaps you should reread through my posts before responding again. It's unnecessary we go over the same stuff, as before.

Quote:
ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND???

The Culture attack from ranges in the several thousand Lightyears... and they wield weapons capable of destroying stars
from that long distances... there's no way that the Federation can survive...



That is not what I'm talking about. You're mentioning single battles, which I thought might be said. I'm talking about a string of single
battles. Yes, they can be done quick with another group with a comperable tech level to the Culture, but I'm not seeing it with Fed tech
level. Because people are spread out, it will take time for them to gather forces to single areas, prevent shipping ships from being used, etc.
-- take time, especially from the Culture's standpoint. Strategically, it makes no sense to try to wipe them all out at once in a single surprise
attack because you would have to fly back and forth to get the much smaller pockets of people.

Or are we to believe the Culture are an impatient lot that wouldn't let its enemy corral themselves into large groups of ships and on planets
and stations? That wouldn't make them strategically good, if they just went around willy nilly without a plan besides 'blow up anything you
find'.

Quote:
you're just making reasonable claims up which have no bearing on Trek CANON, now shut up and stop butchering Trek,
Arsehole.



Even if you don't like my scenario...don't call me an arsehole. What are you talking about 'have no basis'? I've cited the canon, you just
can't disprove my theory.

I don't see why you're complaining so badly or anyone else that is vehement, as you. Is it because I came up with a way that I've never
seen anyone bring up before or did I just burst the bubble of a lot of people that held the Culture at such high praise that a franchise with
the tech level "claimed" to be so low for the Federation could beat a group of the Culture's development?

Beating them with an idea that many of the rabid pro-wars people have used themselves to try to make Wars actually have planet wide
shields -- stringing many theater shields together to cover the planet.

I was surprised, probably more than anyone, when it hit me. An idea so simple it could bring down the Culture? I was shocked and I'm not
easily shocked.

Quote:
Other than the ability to detect a penlight from several thousand lightyears away... no... there is no proof that they can
detect the Federation...



You are changing the topic. Yes, they can detect penlights from far away, but unless they know which direction to scan, it won't really
matter. If the Culture is just looking for Federation people and not getting involved with the others, which is standard for the versus debate,
there is still much of one half of the galaxy for the Feds to be at. Also, many can be in the Gamma quadrent on the other side of the
galaxy from traveling through the Bajoran wormhole.

So, once again, even the Culture can't account for every member of the Federation at any one time.

Quote:
Read this, come back... The Culture's Idea of Utopia is a shitload more impressive than the Federation's... so why you're
sticking up for the Federation even in that department, I've got no Idea



And the Culture made things so easy that humans are virtually pets. I'll take Trek's Federation any day of the week.

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dakarne
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Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 2915
Location: England,
Scoffing Commoners
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject:


Quote:
Gridfire works on targets in real space? Yes. In hyperspace? I don't know, but the phase I'm talking about would be that
which is used to move from 1 parallel reality to another, not switching between older and younger universes of the same
reality.



Not older and younger universes... MIRROR UNIVERSES, you absolute twit, you have no Idea what you're even talking about, the
Culture's gridfire from 2000 LIGHTYEARS away is more than enough to tear the Feds apart.

Quote:
I've never heard of gridfire hitting targets in a parallel reality not connected the the main universe that would have the
Federation in it, where the Culture attacks.



You didn't even know what the culture could do until you read this thread.

Quote:
I have already gone over the use of a phase shifter that moves you between realities with Roondar. Read that post. I could
have the opposite scenario where the Feds attack with one ship using a "phasing drive" and no Feds are killed, but I'm
gonna go with the Culture attacking.



... Do you even know how stupid that sounds.

Quote:
Based on what? Their long distance ranges? How late is 'too late'? As I said earlier, even the Culture can't account for
every movement of all Fed people. Many aren't in Fed territory or on the same side of the galaxy.



Who says those on 'the other side of the galaxy' will even have ACCESS to the tech. Also, Culture long-distance ranges is on average 2
years worth of travel for Federation ships, and with the microsecond reactions and rate of gridfire alone... No bloody chance mate.

The Federation ships have to have someone hit "Phase" and have to have 2 hours of preperation as Geordie whips up something involving
the Navigational Deflector... sure, I'll accept the MacGuyvers, but they haven't done them at microsecond speeds before have they?

Quote:
2. Did you actually take a poll or are you just assuming? I'm betting you're just assuming. Plus, Darkstar is too busy being a
hurricane survivor right now to worry about a debate between any franchises (though his general attitude towards debating
these days is more towards not getting involved than not), unless you spoke to him personally.



I did actually read his website...

Darkstar's Website wrote:
As for the Asgard . . . they would quite probably wipe the floor with the UFP and the Empire, as could the
Culture, several times over.



Ahem.

Quote:
That is not what I'm talking about. You're mentioning single battles, which I thought might be said. I'm talking about a string
of single battles. Yes, they can be done quick with another group with a comperable tech level to the Culture, but I'm not
seeing it with Fed tech level. Because people are spread out, it will take time for them to gather forces to single areas,
prevent shipping ships from being used, etc. -- take time, especially from the Culture's standpoint. Strategically, it makes no
sense to try to wipe them all out at once in a single surprise attack because you would have to fly back and forth to get the
much smaller pockets of people.



There wouldn't be any battles at all... just Culture Ships sitting back and firing a shitload of gridfire on starships from several years' travel
away...

or they'd just use effectors...

Quote:
You are changing the topic. Yes, they can detect penlights from far away, but unless they know which direction to scan, it
won't really matter. If the Culture is just looking for Federation people and not getting involved with the others, which is
standard for the versus debate, there is still much of one half of the galaxy for the Feds to be at. Also, many can be in the
Gamma quadrent on the other side of the galaxy from traveling through the Bajoran wormhole.



Do they need to know the direction to scan, the Microsecond reaction times will have every single direction covered in only a few
seconds, that's if we assume it isn't omni-directional...

Quote:
And the Culture made things so easy that humans are virtually pets. I'll take Trek's Federation any day of the week.



Yep... threats of assimilation and murder every day vs. life of complete harmony... you take the former.

I'm tempted to stop posting in here, it's obvious that you've got no clue what you're talking about, and you're probably a schizophrenic little
man somewhere with a prized startrek stamp and toy collection...
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GStone
User


Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject:


Quote:
Not older and younger universes... MIRROR UNIVERSES, you absolute twit, you have no Idea what you're even talking
about, the Culture's gridfire from 2000 LIGHTYEARS away is more than enough to tear the Feds apart.



I have talked about different universes before and was being specific in my last post because of the gridfire/trapdoor stuff. I was being
specific because of the tendency of more than one person on this board to try to weasel around what I write to spin it in a new direction.

Quote:
You didn't even know what the culture could do until you read this thread.



I knew some, just not a lot. And you think I have only gotten my information on the Culture since this thread started from just this thread?
Didn't happen that way. You have also yet to show the evidence I talked about before for their impacts on the scenario I presented.

Quote:
... Do you even know how stupid that sounds.



So, you don't actually have anything to say for this either. I'll just move on from this and the other sections above.

Quote:
Who says those on 'the other side of the galaxy' will even have ACCESS to the tech.



Who is to say that they wouldn't?

Quote:
Also, Culture long-distance ranges is on average 2 years worth of travel for Federation ships, and with the microsecond
reactions and rate of gridfire alone... No bloody chance mate.



Which has zero to do with the Culture's inability to keep track of every Fed. MO.

Quote:
The Federation ships have to have someone hit "Phase" and have to have 2 hours of preperation as Geordie whips up
something involving the Navigational Deflector... sure, I'll accept the MacGuyvers, but they haven't done them at
microsecond speeds before have they?



Said, while totally ignoring when I asked, if we are to believe that the Culture is an impatient lot. MO.

Quote:
I did actually read his website...



My creation of the scenario was a recent thing. When that was written, I hadn't come up with the scenario, so that has nothing to do with
my argument. If we are quoting Darkstar now, I'll say that you have anti-chronological thinking. MO.

Quote:
There wouldn't be any battles at all... just Culture Ships sitting back and firing a shitload of gridfire on starships from several
years' travel away...

or they'd just use effectors...



Situations that are by definition...battles. MO.

Quote:
Do they need to know the direction to scan, the Microsecond reaction times will have every single direction covered in only
a few seconds, that's if we assume it isn't omni-directional...



That would also assume galaxy wide sensor ranges. Any proof?

Quote:
Yep... threats of assimilation and murder every day vs. life of complete harmony... you take the former.



"Complete harmony", such as any utopia, all come with a price. The Culture's is too high for my taste because it's too easy. You have
access to a vast array of chemicals for your body, change your sex, I think, and a whole bunch of other crap that makes "complete
harmony" the most boring excuse for a society I've ever heard of.

Quote:
I'm tempted to stop posting in here, it's obvious that you've got no clue what you're talking about, and you're probably a
schizophrenic little man somewhere with a prized startrek stamp and toy collection...



I got the communicator and tricorder toys when I was a kid. I never had a uniform or vulcan ears or t-shirts or dressed up as a Trek
character. I only got a couple eps of TNG, DS9 and Voyager on tape 'cause I wanted them. I don't live in a basement or go to
conventions. No posters, buttons, hats or video games (PC or otherwise). I do have the 2 X-Men/Trek crossover comics and the 2 tech
manuals. I don't buy the books or play RPGs, but I do have every Trek movie on tape, except Nemesis and Insurrection are on DVD.

And, actually, I have every clue about what I'm talking about. Do you see me throwing insults around? No, because I have the arguments,
facts and reason. You try to discredit my scenario by sticking to just brute force phrases, say insults and not provide evidence to your
statements for my questions.

I'm not the one with the problem. You just can't disprove my scenario and hate that.

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dakarne
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Joined: 11 Mar 2005
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Location: England,
Scoffing Commoners
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:


Proof, if any whatsoever, that the Federation has time to upsize a Phase Device (not to mention implement it across a massive fleet) in
about, say, a MICROSECOND?

... you don't have any, and thus, you'll lose.

The Culture may miss some people, but of course, wouldn't all access to the phase tech, at all, be on earth, and there's federation law, and
the fact that the FLAGSHIP didn't have it... there's no way for you to win this scenario...

Also, on a note of Fanboyishness...

I have only Video-Games, Books and of course, The Films, for both franchises, I have more stuff on my Computer than off of it, and even
then... that's not saying much.

Also, not accounting for every person isn't really that much of a concern... so long as you track down and kill every scientist... believe me,
Culture minds can tell.

And the Utopia, the Culture wouldn't be boring in any sense of the word, they most likely have holodecks too, and it's a large galaxy, you
could, like you know, explore.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:23 pm

GStone
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Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:44 pm Post subject:


Quote:
Proof, if any whatsoever, that the Federation has time to upsize a Phase Device (not to mention implement it across a massive fleet) in about, say, a
MICROSECOND?

... you don't have any, and thus, you'll lose.



Actually, I don't because, even though doing it in a microsecond would be impossible, it isn't necessary, as I have shown. MO.

Quote:
The Culture may miss some people, but of course, wouldn't all access to the phase tech, at all, be on earth, and there's federation law, and the fact that the
FLAGSHIP didn't have it... there's no way for you to win this scenario...



Actually, here, you're assuming that they would work off the same principles. The phase cloak developed in secret made forced changes to that which it is cloaking that go away
when it is turned off. The phasing drive I'm talking about wouldn't need to worry about that. I have also addressed the idea with Roondar of this being thought of as a "cloak"
and during wartime at the same time. MO.

The creating of an upscaled phase tech can be thought of by someone fighting the Culture or someone nearby, on a space station or planet, which are the specifics of the 2
versions of my scenario. Earth doesn't necessarily have to be where it would be developed. Why would it?

Quote:
Also, not accounting for every person isn't really that much of a concern... so long as you track down and kill every scientist... believe me, Culture minds can
tell.



Based on what, the effectors taking over people? However, that means you won't be "gridfiring" everything in sensor range and effectors don't have "all of the galaxy
simultaneously" range. With this strategy, it will take them longer and it won't be the sudden pouncing on the whole Federation at once you guys keep talking about.

Quote:
And the Utopia, the Culture wouldn't be boring in any sense of the word, they most likely have holodecks too, and it's a large galaxy, you could,
like you know, explore.



Simulating reality doesn't compare to the real thing. If I was born in the Culture, I wouldn't explore, but actually move out of Culture society, take just a couple of things, but get
rid of those chemicals and crap. The Culture's culture gets rid of most risk in life and that just sucks. You can't enjoy much without risk.

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herzeleid
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject:


Quote:
Considered fast as of Consider Phlebas. As of Excession, 500 years later, the fastest ships are capable of ~300,000 c. 200 meters would be the length of the
entire ship.



Small correction here, it should be 220,000 c, not 300,000.


A question, how powerful are these gravitic warheads mentioned earlier?

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GStone
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Posts: 679

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:12 pm Post subject:


Quote:
A question, how powerful are these gravitic warheads mentioned earlier?



Said to be able to blow up a small planet with a particular warhead size, though some on the board dismiss it, as Harry not being serious and him not knowing anything about
torps or their warheads, even though he's working with Tuvok on the torp. It was to be used against a bunch of omega molecules, but we never see the full blast.

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To shoot at individuals from a concealed place.



I think, beyond sensor range is concealed enough don't you think?
_________________


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GStone
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Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:04 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
And Destroying a planet is shown to be piss easy for the culture to do in a microsecond...



Which has never been an issue, so it's irrelevent. MO.

Quote:
The Culture will most certainly destroy the Federation by sniping away from 2,000 lightyears firing about 200 shots of Gridfire per minute, and
that's from one ship



One of the questions is the amount of volume of gridfire that can be done at any one time, not just distance. Also, what is the rate of fire for the gridfire system?

Quote:
The point is, the Federation isn't going to have time to react... since Gridfire is instantaneous... and not every ship is going to be able to support
phasetech...



Said, while ignoring one version of my scenario that says a single ship would have the tech only.

Quote:
Also, if we're working on the 2 seconds after nemesis lark, they won't have the Phase Tech, except being tested in some lab, which would probably be
destroyed along with the planet that it's on.



1. Proof that it has reached only lab testing phase and hasn't been field tested yet? The emergency personal transporter was already engineered, probably reverse engineered
from One's remains.

2. It doesn't have to be on a planet. It could be on a space station or on a starship.

Quote:
And effectors are just as likely to, you know, turn off the phase tech by taking control of federation computers... they can do that.



That's assuming that the Culture would be able to make that kind of phase manipulation, which I have asked before for evidence of, but have yet to see any.

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herzeleid
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Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject:


For a gravitational weapon to damage a Culture vessel, it would have to exceed the strength of the ship's inertial fields, which can counter accelerations of at least 10^11 m/s². A
warhead which produces gravity rather than radiation would need to have a mass-equivalent of 1.5e23 kg to exceed 10^11 m/s² within ten meters.

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GStone
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Posts: 679

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 10:32 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
It's still a victory...

That one ship, even while phased, won't do enough damage to a single culture ship to even impede it... It's just incapable of being damaged is all.



Reread my scenario. The phasing drive would let you phase in and out of both space and time. I've said previously that the transphasic gravitic warheads would be sitting just
out of phase with space-time. They'll receive a signal to all come into phase at the same temporal point, but not the same spatial point and blow the entire Culture up at once.
The point is to use enough at each starship, orbital, etc.

Quote:
Not really, that was an Emergency Transporter, and it only had enough power for the transport of a single person, and only once.



Yes, probably reverse engineered. During transport, you are partially broken up, so reverse engineering a personal transporter you wear should be done in stages. The entire
point of reverse engineering something is so you can not only learn how to work/understand something, but so you have the industrial capacity to actually fix it when it needs
repair and maintain its efficiency. You make sure you don't need specialized equipment to do that, especially in the Federation. And you don't always have a replicator on hand
when it's busted.

The phasing drive would be the same way. You don't just slap a Starfleet sticker on a piece of equipment and act, like there needs to be nothing left to do. You integrate it into
the equipment you have, so that you can raise the tech level base of your whole society. However, the drive would be tech a couple decades into the future, plus probably borg
tech and any of the other advanced tech they came across that they put in it. So, it wouldn't be that hard.

But, if this situation would happen, time would temporarily be a factor, so slapping one together to get the job done to end the war immediately would be done and integration
happens afterwards.

Quote:
Which, it would take, at least, 5 minutes (assuming complete and utter efficiency, and superhuman speed) to get it active, and actually, you know, press the
button.



Based on what was seen in Endgame, and if you extended the time to compensate for the additional mass, it should only take seconds with their FTL computers to phase a ship,
either Defiant class or up to Galaxy. The phase cloak the Feds made in secret "restructures" the matter of the Enterprise and everything onboard. The Galaxy alone is huge and
there was nothing said of anyone dying or having any adverse effects. It is within the Federation's ability to effect Galaxy class ships plus everything else in it with no ill effects.

The cloak unit was maybe a meter or so. Even if we assume that it was a slightly more advanced tech than what was on the Enterprise, they still had to hook it into the
Enterprise to let it use its systems, so the unit could operate at all.

It won't take 5 minutes to phase. Seconds. MO.

Quote:
When your enemy is firing 3 shots per second, each powerful enough to destroy a planet, and that's only one ship, and out of your sensor range, there's not a
single chance.



And if none of these shots are where the tech is at, it won't matter.

You need to start thinking strategically. You keep talking about how strong their weapons are, but it is how they will be used. How the transphasic torp's phase tech could be
used is how the single Fed ship could wipe the floor with all of the Culture.

Quote:
I've yet to see evidence that Temporal Investigations didn't, you know, destroy all copies of the technology to preserve the time line.



So, you're assuming a fact not in evidence and demand proof that contradict an assumption that shows no evidence of being correct.

This is you being stupid because you truly hate the idea that Trek could stomp the Culture's ass. Now, you're arguing with your fingers in your ears, as you sing and look away.
This just one of the many "tactics" considerate fellow fans of Star Wars use (considerate fellow fans of Star Wars that you "claim" to not like), as well as many others you have shown in this thread alone. Any other dumb
stuff you want to do?

This is also you ignoring past incidents of TI involvement because you truly hate the idea that Trek could stomp the Culture's ass. I'm not repeating them in this thread. MO.

herzeleid wrote:
For a gravitational weapon to damage a Culture vessel, it would have to exceed the strength of the ship's inertial fields, which can counter accelerations of at
least 10^11 m/s². A warhead which produces gravity rather than radiation would need to have a mass-equivalent of 1.5e23 kg to exceed 10^11 m/s² within
ten meters.



And a lot of them would have to be used. It'd take time, but when you can go outside of it, that fact becomes meaningless.

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herzeleid
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:49 am Post subject:


GStone wrote:
I'll give The Culture attacking Fed territory.



Why would they do that?

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GStone
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Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
You've yet to provide proof that the Federation will IGNORE ITS OWN LAWS!!!



Look at the examples: Kirk, Bashir, Janeway, Braxton. They break their own laws. Besides, the idea that they wouldn't break their own laws when facing possible obliteration is
utterly ridiculous. But, how would developing the phasing drive be breaking their laws? This is a FTL/time travel/reality travel device, far more than just being a "cloak".

Typhonis wrote:
More than enough time for the culutre ship to simply move out of the way and in a direction said torped will have trouble following.



Staying partially phased and firing would be the harder option, but not their only option.

herzeleid wrote:
Why would they do that?



Why would the Culture attack? I don't know, it could be any reason to get a versus battle started.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:43 pm

GStone
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Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
GStone... you have yet to provide any proof whatsoever that Starfleet Personell would:

A: Break the Temporal Prime Directive



Yes, I did. "Kirk". He and crew broke it when they went into the past to get humpback whales to bring to the future and brought a 20th century scientist, too. Scotty gave a guy
the specifications to make a particular material that was more advanced then he new, so they could contain the whales and the water. This was to just save Earth. You think they
won't break the TPD when the entire Federation is at stake?

Insanity. "Janeway" did it just to save her crew and she left them with a few goodies.

MO.

Quote:
B: Press a button faster than a Microsecond



Not a requirement for my scenarios. Reread my posts, though you haven't bothered to yet, or you'd see this one has been answered before. MO.

Quote:
C: Have sensors that can detect things from 2,000 Lightyears away



See above. MO.

Quote:
D: Break the Treaty of Algeron, a Cloak is still a cloak



They broke the TPD to get humpback whales and a 20th century scientist to save just Earth and you think they wouldn't break the treaty of algeron to save themselves against
the Culture.

Highly ridiculous. MO.

Quote:
E: That they actually can upscale the technology from phasing a 1.5m object to phasing a 600m object despite not actually having that much knowledge of the
tech itself yet.



They have the transphasic torp unless future canon contradicts. They have the tech, they have the capability of effecting Galaxy class ships. I have gone over this. MO.

So, out of the 5 you want me to show evidence pertaining to, I had already posted evidence pertaining to each of them in previous posts. Unless you have something new, I see
no point in debating this with you anymore.

Augustus Caesar wrote:
I think it's a lot simpler to believe that they can do these things and defeat the Culture, but that the chances of it happening are one in a trillion trillion trillion. In
every other encounter with the Fed responding conventionally or diplomatically as they would try to, the UFP is turned to smouldering ash.



Wow. To hear such a coherent rationale in the first sentence from you is surprising, though I wouldn't agree on the odds you posted. It is true that the Federation won't normally
start a war and will look for diplomatic solutions, but I'd think they'd change quickly around, like after their first encounter with the borg.

However, your "smouldering ash" bit is an exaggeration. Smouldering ash would be what happened to the Terran Empire in the mirror'verse. This never happened to the
Federation in the main universe.

Typhonis wrote:
The how will the Federation cope with an enemy that can simply blow one of their fleets apart faster than Picard can even say engage?

This isn't just talking about firepower here. This is a group who engages their oponents and the fights are decided in the microsecond range. By the time the
Starfleet personel register in their mind this is a Culture warship they face. It will have already crippled or destroyed the ship they are on.



Well, there are limits to the Culture's sensor tech and Fed people are spread out amongst 3 quadrents of the galaxy.

But, I've yet to see evidence that the Culture would go from engagement to engagement in seconds with a society with a much lower tech level. Strategically, it's waste of time
and makes no sense. Since they are spread out, let them group themselves into smaller areas and then, wipe them out.

There's another question of just how many ships would be used? 1 or many? If many, how many?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject:


Initiating a war is not something the Culture takes lightly. It took decades for the Culture to build up to declaring war on the Idirans, and they only did it because they felt
allowing the Idirans to continue their conquest of everyone unable to resist when they had the power to stop it would be the same as giving up their own right to exist. Even so, it
caused several groups to leave the Culture in protest. Unless the Federation is doing some very bad stuff, and doing it blatantly and widely, the Culture won't attack them
overtly, and they won't do it with their own forces.

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GStone
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Posts: 679

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject:


Quote:
The way you present it, it seems as if the Culture is bound to be defeated by the UFP. It is most probable that the Culture could destroy the Federation
before all of SF is mobilized and directed to combat the threat.



Many have said this, but without elaborating further. With the Federation's tech level, are they more likely to send a fleet of ships to pounce on them or just one? The more likely
number would have an effect on my scenario.

Quote:
There is a tiny, microscopic chance that the scenario you presented could happen, but it's on the level of asking whether the Japanese Army of 1945 could
defeat the US Army of today.



What's often lacking is strategy of the Cuture in many pro-Culture arguments, leaving it at just technological remarks. What little is touched on is barely enough to make anything
accurate. Yes, Culture v Culture/similar tech level individual battles are done superfast. But, no matter how many bring in a counter argument, technology is only used with a
single use of weapons and rarely the Culture's strategy, if they went into this situation.

We have lots of space fighting strategy evidence for Starfleet, but no one is providing any info on Culture strategy, basically saying 'look how powerful their weapons are' or 'see
how far away they can blow something up'. That's not a strategy, that's mindless rambling.

I've read some, but not a lot of the Culture stories. Has there just been no indication of their strategy when fighting someone of the Fed's development? I know they've fought in
war before, but did Banks just leave out strategy for space fighting and left it at the long, drawn out thinking of the Minds and end with many pages taking the span of fractions of
a second?

If that's the case, someone should say so, so the debate can move to trying to figure out what they might do.


```````````


And after hitting preview, I find someone finally comes through.

herzeleid wrote:
Initiating a war is not something the Culture takes lightly. It took decades for the Culture to build up to declaring war on the Idirans, and they only did it
because they felt allowing the Idirans to continue their conquest of everyone unable to resist when they had the power to stop it would be the same as giving
up their own right to exist. Even so, it caused several groups to leave the Culture in protest. Unless the Federation is doing some very bad stuff, and doing it
blatantly and widely, the Culture won't attack them overtly, and they won't do it with their own forces.



1. So, they are like the Federation, where they don't take going to war, as small stuff. Okay.
2. So, to get to the point where they would fight, let's assume that there was enough friction, after knowing each other for awhile, that is bad enough they would go to war. I
haven't the first clue what it might be, maybe it starts off with something about how humans are or whatever and it slowly goes down hill, step-by-step until war is declared.
3. Then, if it isn't overt and it isn't with their own forces, then how would it work? Because, if Culture ships aren't gonna be sent to fight, then this thread has been on the wrong
path from the get go.

Oh, lord.

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GStone
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Posts: 679

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:30 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
Since everyone in the Cultureverse uses THE SAME TECH!!!

Imbecile.



There's no need to get all huffy.

That's a common thing in franchises. Except, not everyone will have the same tech development level, from what I understand of races in the Culture'verse. With scenario
debates, we have to look to how the groups engage in war. If the Culture actually sends other groups (covertly or overtly), then using figures for tech on Culture ships won't be
used. Only if the Culture ships were brought into the fight would those figures be usable. After everything else, I'd now say the Culture's fleet would be brought in, if the Culture
felt other avenues were gone. That's my guess. If I'm wrong, I want to know...with the appropriate text citations, if possible.

So, Starfleet v Culture fleet will have to wait until the other methods they use are done first. That match up would apparently take us right to the end of the war and skip
everything that came before it.

With this new info, my scenarios will have to be modified for this new info.

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GStone
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Posts: 679

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:00 pm Post subject:


ElderWyrm wrote:
1. Provide evidence that a transphasic torpedo would even hurt a Culture vessel, no matter where it blew up. Use any kind of energy warhead, it gets
vacuumed into hyperspace. Use your stupidly wankish gravity warhead (do you realize just how huge a gravity warhead would have to be to be in any way
comparable to, say, a pound of TNT?), it has to overwhelm intertial compensators that can deal with thousands, perhaps tens or even hundreds of thousands
of G's without breaking a sweat.



This is where you have to pay attention to what I have posted before from every post I have made on this topic.

One last time for everyone that is too lazy or doesn't care and just wants to argue for the sake of arguing.

1. Trapdoors make a distinction between what is defined, as a force and what is energy. Gravity is defined, as a force. EM, for instance, would be energy. While a sufficiently
strong enough gravity based weapon will blow up a Culture ship (Culture-Idiran war), only the exploded matter would be shunted by the trapdoor system, not the gravitational
force.

2. I have had to repeatedly remind people that I have always talked about using more than one transphasic torp with a gravitic warhead. Not one torp...multiple torps.

Was the concept of plurality never taught for you? Seriously.

Now, a warhead capable of blowing up a planet can fit in your standard torp case (I've debated enough on if Harry was exaggerating or not--it's canon, anyone who doesn't like
it can kiss my ass because I have no interest in debating it anymore, so get over it). So, photons and quantums won't be used.

Remember this stuff people, I'm not holding your hands on this anymore.

Quote:
2. Prove that the Federation will actually be able to reverse engineer and mass produce transphasic torpedoes.



1. Did it look like Admiral Janeway had a stash of transphasic torps on her shuttle? No, so it had to be in data form, possibly a replicator pattern of all the necessary parts with
instruction manual.

2. Not only was it Voyager that came up with the transphasic torps, it was Voyager from the not too distant future that came up with the transphasic torps. All that would be
needed would be to alter the replicator pattern of the standard warhead (whatever it is), so you replicate a gravitic warhead. No big deal.

Quote:
3. Prove that they've actually ever thought up something on this scale within the short period of time they'll have before the Culture is able to completely wipe
them out.



Are you deliberately not reading all of my posts because you're lazy or don't care at all?

I'll copy and paste from my last one.

"That's a common thing in franchises. Except, not everyone will have the same tech development level, from what I understand of races in the Culture'verse. With scenario
debates, we have to look to how the groups engage in war. If the Culture actually sends other groups (covertly or overtly), then using figures for tech on Culture ships won't be
used. Only if the Culture ships were brought into the fight would those figures be usable. After everything else, I'd now say the Culture's fleet would be brought in, if the Culture
felt other avenues were gone. That's my guess. If I'm wrong, I want to know...with the appropriate text citations, if possible.

So, Starfleet v Culture fleet will have to wait until the other methods they use are done first. That match up would apparently take us right to the end of the war and skip
everything that came before it.

With this new info, my scenarios will have to be modified for this new info."

--GStone, posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:30 pm

Look at that. Just over an hour ago.

And I'm supposedly the one with the problem.

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herzeleid
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 29

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:43 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
3. Then, if it isn't overt and it isn't with their own forces, then how would it work? Because, if Culture ships aren't gonna be sent to fight, then this thread has
been on the wrong path from the get go.



This would involve the use of proxy forces, as they did with the Idirans from the beginning of the fourth dispute between them in 1323 up until the official beginning of the war in
1327. Covert manipulation of local forces, perhaps even internal to the Federation, to get them to do the shooting.

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GStone
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Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 679

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:02 pm Post subject:


ElderWyrm wrote:
1. Electromagnetism is as much a force as gravity. In fact, without getting too technical, all energy is the application of a force.



You know this, I know this. But, there's a problem.

Trapdoor systems make a distinction. Graviational "stuff" isn't shunted. MO.

Quote:
But that's not even what I was arguing. What I was arguing is that the Culture's inertial compensators would be more than enough to compensate for a
transphasic torpedo's gravity warhead (unless you're going to stick like, ten thousand torpedoes in each Culture ship, orbital, station, and planet, in which case
you're going to have to prove that the Federation could actually build this many torpedoes before being steamrolled by the Culture).



What you have also failed to notice from my past posts is that I don't know what the maximum yield a gravitic warhead can have. This would determine how many would be
used, since Culture ships, rings, orbitals, etc. are so damn big and tough. MO.

Quote:
Prove a gravity warhead (something inherently much, MUCH weaker than any other equivilant force application. Gravitational constant? 6.67 x 10^-11.
Coulomb's constant? 9 x 10^9) would be enough to blow up a planet without having to be MUCH MUCH larger.



I told you before that this is in the canon. You will either pay attention to what I have posted before or I will stop debating you on this subject because I do not go round and
round with people that do that.

Quote:
Seriously, gravity is an insanely weak force. It isn't any kind of mark of advanced technology to use gravity in weaponry (we've been doing so since before
the dawn of civilization for fuck's sake).



This is ridiculous. To counter this, I can easily say 'which will do more damage to you, a ton of feathers falling on you or a pound of gold?'.

Quote:
Yes big deal. You have to prove that they'd be able to actually make a gravitic warhead, then you'd have to prove that they'd be able to make a sufficiently
powerful one that would fit into the casing of a transphasic torpedo. Then you have to prove that it could also still carry the power system to power such in
immense warhead.



1. Voyager of the future made them, Voyager of the present built them, as they did with the armor generators.
2. Maxium yield goes into each warhead, which tells you how many you'll need per target.
3. Replicating them, while you are out of phase with space and time and setting them so they all phase into time at the same moment, but at different spots in space, is not that
difficult when you are out of phase with both space and time.

I don't get this. Have I not dumbed this down far enough? There's no possible way this is a difficult scenario to grasp.

Quote:
Er, that isn't really how vrs matchs work, you know. When, in the past, have we looked beyond the tactics, at most, a verse uses? We haven't. You're
making shit up so that your already pathetic scenario sounds all that bit more plausible.



Who the hell is 'we'? I've looked at strategy plus tech in every match up. Look at the various 40k/Trek matches and you'll see strategy. Look at the
redshirt/stormtrooper/goldshirt/stormtrooper match ups. Strategy in them, too. There is much strategy here.

So, I'll reiterate. You will either pay attention to what I have posted before or I will stop debating you on this subject because I do not go round and round with people that do
that.

herzeleid wrote:
This would involve the use of proxy forces, as they did with the Idirans from the beginning of the fourth dispute between them in 1323 up until the official
beginning of the war in 1327. Covert manipulation of local forces, perhaps even internal to the Federation, to get them to do the shooting.



1. Local forces around the Federation, like the klingons, romulans, etc.? If they are used for local fighting, would the Culture give them tech to use or would they just use their
own tech?
2. Covert manipulations by what, effectors, spys? Does the Culture have spies? I know there is contact stuff, but any 'spies spies'?

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GStone
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Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
Spies that you'd never see coming, effectors do a really good job you know.



You can very easily stop making statements without providing evidence any time you want.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:47 pm

herzeleid
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 29

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
1. Local forces around the Federation, like the klingons, romulans, etc.? If they are used for local fighting, would the Culture give them tech to use or would
they just use their own tech?



Depends on the situation and particular goals they have in mind.

Quote:
2. Covert manipulations by what, effectors, spys? Does the Culture have spies? I know there is contact stuff, but any 'spies spies'?



Spies, yes. That's what Special Circumstances does. Effectors would also be used, probably most often for surveillance and searching computers, though there are organs of SC
which are not averse to digging through and tinkering with an animal's brain.

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GStone
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Posts: 679

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:23 pm Post subject:


herzeleid wrote:
GStone wrote:
1. Local forces around the Federation, like the klingons, romulans, etc.? If they are used for local fighting, would the Culture give them tech
to use or would they just use their own tech?



Depends on the situation and particular goals they have in mind.



Do you know of an example of when they would and when they wouldn't?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:35 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
Do you know of an example of when they would and when they wouldn't?



For an example similar to what has occured in the books, if they wanted some device - tracking device, bug, whatever - delivered to some secure location in a Federation ship
or facility, and especially if they've been keeping their full capabilities secret, they could provide the device itself and some means of delivering it, like a preprogrammed displacer
or short range hyperspace unit. But giving them pieces of their own technology could be seen as an unnecessary risk if whoever they're having do it is capable of making the
device or delivering it secretly on their own.

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GStone
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:26 pm Post subject:


So, a few secrets could be told, so the "pawns" could reverse engineer it to use it. Okay.

I'm still trying to uderstand Effectors. They're an advanced form of electronic warfare (counter/counter countermeansures), can effect EM energy pretty well and can be blocked
by a strong enough EM field, but the Culture sends the energy through hyperspace to get around those barriers. But, they can't effect mechanical devices. So, is the energy
emitted not EM, even through it can still effect EM, like an artificial particle or something? Is there any indication how much can be emitted at one time? With their computer
speeds, I'm not sure if it's a huge amount at once or if it's small amounts with successive emissions. Has Effectors ever been known to make mechanical devices freeze up?

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GStone
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject:


If you have a technology that can rewire someone's brain to make them loyal to you, there's a good chance you can rewire their brain, so they'll understand. But, if the Culture
were to give some secrets aware, it'd have to close enough to the other governments to actually make it and connect it into their machines, if needed.

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herzeleid
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Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:30 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
So, a few secrets could be told, so the "pawns" could reverse engineer it to use it. Okay.



I highly doubt they would allow them to reverse engineer anything. The devices provided in my scenario would certainly be self contained and contain failsafes to prevent
unauthorized uses. They don't have to understand how it works to push a button, or to just put it in the right location so it can perform its duties automatically.

Quote:
...can be blocked by a strong enough EM field...



What do you base that on?

Quote:
but the Culture sends the energy through hyperspace to get around those barriers. But, they can't effect mechanical devices. So, is the energy emitted not EM,
even through it can still effect EM, like an artificial particle or something? Is there any indication how much can be emitted at one time? With their computer
speeds, I'm not sure if it's a huge amount at once or if it's small amounts with successive emissions.



There are mentions in Excession of "maser energies" in relation to effectors, but there has never been anything more specific about how they work that I know of, only their
effects.

Quote:
Has Effectors ever been known to make mechanical devices freeze up?



Not that I know of. Given their shown effects, I'd imagine they could do it by either welding parts together or by simple thermal expansion.

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GStone
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject:


When an Effector is used on someone, does it constantly have to send a signal to them or is it a one time thing and off they go?

herzeleid wrote:
GStone wrote:
...can be blocked by a strong enough EM field...



What do you base that on?



Second hand information. Effectors less advanced than the Culture's get blocked by them, but Culture level ones go through hyperspace to get passed the fields too strong to
bulldoze their way through with a hyperspce unit or something, so theirs is more complex.

Quote:
There are mentions in Excession of "maser energies" in relation to effectors, but there has never been anything more specific about how they work that I know
of, only their effects.



Have there been any mention of an effect to uncharged particles, either individually or as a large grouping?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
When an Effector is used on someone, does it constantly have to send a signal to them or is it a one time thing and off they go?



In the absence of some outside force countering their effects or the need to take direct control, it would be one-time.

GStone wrote:
Second hand information. Effectors less advanced than the Culture's get blocked by them, but Culture level ones go through hyperspace to get passed the
fields too strong to bulldoze their way through with a hyperspce unit or something, so theirs is more complex.



There are anti-effector shields, but they are never stated to be specifically electromagnetic. There's also the possibility that they can be used with displacers to circumvent
defenses.

Quote:
Have there been any mention of an effect to uncharged particles, either individually or as a large grouping?



No specific mention that I can recall, but a Mind's higher functions make use of proton-neutron pairs, so we can infer that they do affect neutral particles. Of course, even neutral
particles can have weak magnetic properties, and be composed of even smaller, charged particles.

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GStone
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Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:46 pm Post subject:


Quote:
In the absence of some outside force countering their effects or the need to take direct control, it would be one-time.



Is there an amount known of how many individual things could be effected at one time by a Culture level effector or an amount they couldn't do?

Quote:
There are anti-effector shields, but they are never stated to be specifically electromagnetic. There's also the possibility that they can be used with displacers to
circumvent defenses.



Does this mean that the wormhole created by a displacer travels outside real space, like through hyperspace or something?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
Is there an amount known of how many individual things could be effected at one time by a Culture level effector or an amount they couldn't do?



Individual brains, neurons, molecules, etc. at a given instant? Unknown. An effector apparently has to focus on a target to have any significant effect, but the degree of focus isn't
really stated. There's the "light second wide sensing field" quote from The Player of Games, but that was for passive detection of a laser and doesn't really give any limits.

Quote:
Does this mean that the wormhole created by a displacer travels outside real space, like through hyperspace or something?



Yes, though the exact medium isn't stated that I recall. It certainly seems more exotic than normal straight-line travel through hyperspace.

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GStone
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Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject:


herzeleid wrote:
GStone wrote:
Is there an amount known of how many individual things could be effected at one time by a Culture level effector or an amount they couldn't
do?



Individual brains, neurons, molecules, etc. at a given instant? Unknown. An effector apparently has to focus on a target to have any significant effect, but the
degree of focus isn't really stated. There's the "light second wide sensing field" quote from The Player of Games, but that was for passive detection of a laser
and doesn't really give any limits.



Then, when an individual brain/electronic equipment/etc. is manipulated by an effector, is there something left over, like an "effector signature" or does it leave no prints?

GStone
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Post by GStone » Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:00 pm

The main viewing I had on the scneario is a little down in this post, but I am incuding herzaleid and I's discussion of that view for additional clarification of Culture details. The viewpoint is a big chunk, you can't miss it.






herzeleid
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:01 pm Post subject:


Possibly, though they would likely try to minimize any departures from the norm for security reasons. I doubt many of them would be actual changelings.

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GStone
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Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject:


So, the percentage that are changelings would be very small and the rest are just your basic humans without all of the Culture's additions and them being pro-Culture. And they'd
be carrying tiny, covert bugging devices and sensors manipulators with holocloaks and/or hyperspace units, maybe. That sound right?

The bugs' hard drives and other stuff, do they have FTL capabilities?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
So, the percentage that are changelings would be very small and the rest are just your basic humans without all of the Culture's additions and them being
pro-Culture. And they'd be carrying tiny, covert bugging devices and sensors manipulators with holocloaks and/or hyperspace units, maybe. That sound
right?



They might do that occasionally, yes.

Quote:
The bugs' hard drives and other stuff, do they have FTL capabilities?



As in FTL transmitters? Maybe. It's not necessary though, as they could be read remotely by effectors.

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GStone
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject:


herzeleid wrote:
GStone wrote:
So, the percentage that are changelings would be very small and the rest are just your basic humans without all of the Culture's additions and
them being pro-Culture. And they'd be carrying tiny, covert bugging devices and sensors manipulators with holocloaks and/or hyperspace
units, maybe. That sound right?



They might do that occasionally, yes.



Then, they'd more likely just remember the info they collected?

Quote:
Quote:
The bugs' hard drives and other stuff, do they have FTL capabilities?



As in FTL transmitters? Maybe. It's not necessary though, as they could be read remotely by effectors.



Effectors where, sitting in hyperspace or covered by holocloaks?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:45 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
Then, they'd more likely just remember the info they collected?



Not necessarily; they have many options and the specific methods would depend on the situation. They could have perfect memories or be under direct observation by a Mind
somewhere. The latter is especially likely if it is a Mind avatar rather than an independent sentient.

Quote:
Effectors where, sitting in hyperspace or covered by holocloaks?



Either of those, or it could be sitting in the next system over.

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GStone
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject:


herzeleid wrote:
GStone wrote:
Then, they'd more likely just remember the info they collected?



Not necessarily; they have many options and the specific methods would depend on the situation. They could have perfect memories or be under direct
observation by a Mind somewhere. The latter is especially likely if it is a Mind avatar rather than an independent sentient.



Mind avatar, as in they'd make a human or use a pre-existing one without the differences from Fed based humans and the Mind would shift from where it normally is and go into
the human?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:11 pm Post subject:


GStone wrote:
Mind avatar, as in they'd make a human or use a pre-existing one without the differences from Fed based humans and the Mind would shift from where it
normally is and go into the human?



It's possible that a human might choose to become a Mind's avatar, but they would for the most part be constructed specifically for that purpose. The avatar might function on a
sort of locally stored abstract of the Mind's mind-state or be controlled remotely by some subroutine running within the Mind, with it having the option in either case of stepping
in and taking more direct control.

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GStone
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Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:


Then, is there anything else about the Culture for this scenario I should know?

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herzeleid
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:25 pm Post subject:


There may be, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.

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GStone
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 12:30 pm Post subject:


So, there'll be a peace treaty/nonaggression pact between the Federation and the Culture. However, things aren't entirely 100% between them. The genetic modifications of
humans brings back memories of the Augments and the fact humans are basically pets is not looked highly upon by the Federation. There is much uneasiness between them.

But, the higher ups of the Culture are unsure about a couple things. With the Federation's attitude about genetic modifications and the status level of the "lesser species" in
Culture society, many of the Culture's higher ups are worried with the Federation's continued technological development at a relatively fast pace. Learning about the
advancements they have made when against opponents, like the Dominion, the Borg, etc. from their increasing desire for knowledge, breaking new ground in science and
encouragement of "thinking outside the box" for new solutions and applications of technology, the higher ups of the Culture start to suspect something may arise in the distant or
even near future.

The Federation, particularly its members of Starfleet, has had a long history of acting in a very peace corps-like fashion towards civilizations with FTL capabilities, giving aid and
assistance to those in need with what they have, ranging from methods to technology to medicine. The Federation routinely prefers pooling as many resources (material and
immaterial), as possible.

Much of what the Culture has done is eliminate risk out of everyday life by their technological/genetic developments for its citizenry. Could the idea of a "more dangerous life"
appeal to a significant portion of the citizens of the Culture to cause some kind of societal upheaval? People have left the Culture before, but there could be upheavals of greater
natures. A worst case scenario could be a rebellion and hunting of Minds. Minds that are stripped of personalities and programming, taken apart, so they can't be who they are.

Grim, but hey. We're talking worse case here.

The instilling, or reawakening, of the human spirit's need for freedom and "doing what's right" (no matter how subjective it gets) in the human populace of the Culture and any
other species might lead to a rebellion/revolution scenario. Where the spreading is caused by stuff that spreads amongst populations consisting of people (not necessarily human,
but people): gossip, news, public opinion (this isn't always a good thing for everyone or even based on all the fact with its much lower standard of proof/evidence), how the
higher ups in charge respond to such a situation, etc.
An alternative could be the Federation advancing to where they might force a change in the future through trade agreements or a faction splitting off from the Federation and
attacking. It happened with the Maquis and Cardassians and ex-bajoran terrorists after the occupation.

So, what are the higher ups in the Culture to do? Ignore it and hope it goes away or try to do something, whatever it is? Ignoring problems doesn't seem, like something that
would happen, but I haven't read that much for the Culture stories. I'll go with it anyway.

The decision is made to put spies and bugging equipment into parts of the Federation because of its Cold War-like tactics and preference to avoid an all out war, if it can. Some
information is known about the capabilities of Federation equipment. Because of the uneasiness standard humans of the Culture give to Federation people, they decide to use
mainly humans of the Federation standard and some changelings, both having Culture equipment. These people will travel into Federation territory from the outlaying systems,
careful never to use transporters for fear of the technology being detected with sensors.

Some of these people will get entry level jobs, while the changelings will take over the lives of higher up Federation people after stalking them and learning their routines
(preferably those that are single for less possibility for suspicion). Others will set up lives for themselves and start families, the children going off to join Starfleet and other
organizations that would allow them access (direct or indirect) to any intelligence info they can get, like research stations and the like.

The bugging devices are set up to interfer with the datastream between the sensor and the computer it's tied to, "masking" the presence of bugging devices and evidence of
changelings hanging around. They would also be manipulated to keep from registering any interphasic opening between hyperspace and real space, so more
equipment/personnel can be used. The bugging devices can also hide themselves in things, like holocloaks and "cloaks of darkness". With its potentially small size, the Culture
equipment may be missed on visual inspection, too.

The problem is with routine maintenance. Even if internal sensors were reworked, there is still the hand tricorders. The pattern for new tricorders may be messed with and the
particle configuration databanks can be altered to show what it normally is, but there are already a lot of tricorders made. It only takes one person trying to make modifications
to make theirs a better tricorder than the others that will pick up on the fact that there is a holocloak. Fed sensors can see through holograms (ENT-that romulan ship with a
holocloak) and tell that neutrons are present (TUC), which can tell for the absence of neutrons, showing it to be a holocloak (they wanted to look for holographic fields on
Kassidy's ship in DS9, I think the caretaker's array in VOY had holograms that were detected). This person's tricorder could pick up on interphasic fissues used for transition
between hyperspace and real space (Voyager picked them up when the 'spirits of good fortune' used them in Equinox), particularly since there is no known instance of the
Culture masking these openings, like in a warp cloak or something.

There is also a possible ship in orbit that could pick up on the fissure or finds a holocloak because of searching for someone or something. Whether it's planet based crewman or
ship based, someone else is told, either just a department head or captain and not necessarily to the uppermost person any of them know (four captains met in secret to discuss
a possible conspiracy at the highest levels of Starfleet).

Once a small group of people learn that Culture tech is being used to spy on them, they will get worried. In a post-Dominion War, post-Nemesis Federation, people are even
less dismissive about something, like this. They understand that, if the Culture bothered to spy on them, something is definately going on. The thought of going to war with
another adversary with much more advanced technology, like what they have gone through recently is not pleasant. How do you fight someone that has stronger weapons, faster
engines, stronger shields and a lot of other stuff more advanced than you?

You change the playing field, but how? Where this scenario splits in two is where the discovery is made (by and/or on a ship/space station/planet based instillation), but in
whichever case, they lead to the same place. An empath/telepath or two or three get into the ranks of the ones that know that the Culture is spying on them, like betazoids or
vulcans. They are used to see, if the higher ups of Starfleet and the Federation are who they are and those that are are told of what is going on.

At this point, transphasic torps have been studied and, going with what I have already typed before, there has been a development into a ship with a phase drive. If it has been
made public depends. Real world countries have kept certain technological secrets till they were surpassed and then, the older ones have been let out to the public. Given the
relative ease putting a phase drive together is, one can easily be put together with many more also made.

Whichever the case, a decision is made the hold, at least, one ship with a phase drive in secret. To avoid detection, this phase drive could have been on a ship in an always on
dampening field. Effectors interact with EM energy, which means that energy can be effected by EM, even if its nature is unknown. The Federation has had experience with
erecting dampening fields for signals of more advanced technology, like the borg. So, if a phase drive was being held in secret, a strong dampening field would probably
surround where the drive was. If phase drives were public by this time, then a ship would be called in and the ship and the crew would be examined for signs of Culture
manipulation/infiltration. The methods I'll explain below.

A negotiation/ambassador mission will be sent to the Culture to discuss the bugging equipment. The ship with the phase drive, who, after being okay'd (getting rid of
manipulation/personnel/etc., if it existed there), will have its sensors running the entire time, while it stays within a dampening field. When the negotiation/ambassador team
returns, the team and the ship's crew will be throughly searched physically (DNA/viral/microscopic tech tests) and psychologically (using past brain scans and
telepathic/empathic scans for signs of effectorizing). The team/crew won't be told this before they left or get back. They know about searching memories because of the mind
scanner said the exist in TOS, Bashir/O'Brien's easy use of a romulan mind scanner, Bashir, presumably, putting back the real memories of the lady covert agent that fell in love
with Odo, Crusher saying they had mapped the brain and understood stuff, like how to make headaches a very rare thing to treat and all the times she had to wipe the memories
of people from pre-warp civilizations before putting them back home.

Individual memories are spider webbed throughout the different areas of the brain. The reason why brains are said to have an enormous storage capacity is because of the
redundency with every memory because of new memories triggering other memories and connecting to them, creating one, interconnected jigsaw puzzle. When someone looses
their memory, there is a chance they can get it back, either by reconnecting the broken links or by forming new links and "recreating" memories. But, it isn't always a 100%
process. The Feds have even been shown to be able to detect an increase in memory (Crusher did it when Q was zipping Picard across time because of the temporal anomaly).
Effectorizing someone to turn them into a pro-Culture hippie will alter the spider web of neural tissue, changing a large section of the brain, even if there is no "effector signature"
left behind. The Culture may do this to the group sent to talk to them about the found equipment/people that were discovered to hide their tracks.

If the ship with the phase drive doesn't get an okay about them, and are prevented from performing their own tests on them and on those that did the initial testing and the
equipment, they will leave their space-time and continue with their plan, which I've posted before, but I'll type it again. They'll replace the warhead of the transphasic torps with
gravimetric warheads (as strong, as they can be made without imparing the function of the torp--they may be able to take out a few things, like the propulsion system and some
other stuff, but sensors would have to stay in) and place them just out of phase with space-time at all the Culture's ship, rings, orbitals, etc. Once they are all in place, they will
rephase with space-time, "in-between the fractions of each second" and blow up.

If the returning ship/people from the Culture refuse to be scanned, the phase drive ship would get a signal to start the plan anyway or, if they didn't get the signal, they'd go out of
phase with space-time and scan it to see what is happening and decide for themselves, as other precautions.

The trapdoor systems won't shunt the gravitational energy and the Culture things will be destroyed. Afterwards, the Feds'll try to clean up what the Culture did. It'd lead to
telepathic/empathic scans and maybe bringing back the mind reading devices. Unless I've missed something, this is a way Trek can beat the Culture.

I can understand why some of those more knowledgable about the Culture than me have constantly tried to dissuade me from the tactics and strategies of the Culture with posts
that continually talked about computer speeds, weapons range, etc. Knowing the Culture's way of doing things makes my scenario even more likely to happen, especially the
phase drive tech development.

I know I will get posts saying what I've written in this post won't matter, citing a piece of tech more advanced than Trek. After 9 pages, do you guys still want to do that?

If there's actually anything relevent that I haven't learned yet, I'll hear it and adjust my scenario accordingly, if necessary.

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GStone
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 3:03 pm Post subject:


dakarne wrote:
Quote:
If there's actually anything relevent that I haven't learned yet, I'll hear it and adjust my scenario accordingly, if necessary.



That in the time it takes someone to give the order to press a button... (since the Phase-tech DOES take time to activate)

The Culture would have fired off enough firepower to annihilate entire solar systems.



1. What are the odds it would be you that voiced the first opposition, while mentioning a piece of tech more advanced than what the Federation has? I'd say very good.

2. You mention firing weapons to destroy systems, but that actually goes against the Culture's policy of war avoidance, if possible. A shot like that so early on is against the way
they would act and would be an act of war. Given how easy it is to make a phase drive, there can be ones that the Culture doesn't know about and hasn't discovered with their
spies. A shot fired to destroy a system would be nice, assuming it was fired at a system that has the drive in it.

Add to that the fact that, even if they can destroy a system from outside of it, the resultant explosion is still limited by the speed of light. Depending on where the initial explosion
begins, the ship could be anywhere in the system. Hell, the explosion can be beaten by a regular warp drive.

3. It took about 5 seconds for a GCS in Pegasus to cloak. The phase drive doesn't have to be on so large a ship. Something Intrepid class or Defiant class would do fine, too,
shaving off more seconds. So, 1 second to give an order, a quarter second to push a button and between 2 and 3 for phasing. In the 2-3 seconds it'd take to phase, they
become more and more phased.

Combine this with FTL sensors that can track incoming objects moving at FTL speeds, such as when DS9 was tracking the Defiant being chased by the klingon ships at warp,
and the Feds can know ahead of time and phase. If they use an interspatial fissure to make the weapon move through hyperspace, Fed sensors can pick up on the fissure and
with their FTL sensors, they'll know to 'hit the button' and phase before they are hit. It could even be made an automated thing that the ship does. More and more ship functions
are becoming automated. It isn't that hard of a stretch.

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