Me and herzeleid did get into a lot of specifics for tech, tactics, MO, etc.. I was going for as complete a picture as possible, so I've taken out all the other people besides me and him. There will be several posts.
herzeleid
User
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 29
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject:
GStone wrote:
Even, if it's talking about a small planet, like our own, it would be an impressive blast. Does anyone know how the blast
would work? Would it be brute force of the generators attached to it or some weird energy manipulation that's unleashed?
The Mind was stated to mass 15 thousand tonnes. "Annihilatory destruct" implies mass-energy conversion, in the range of 1.35e24 J.
Quote:
Some context seems to be missing. What's the SC? Are they talking about all thought in a given timeframe that's short?
Give me enough time and I can have all thoughts.
SC is Special Circumstances, the "dirty tricks" section of Contact, the organization that deals with the Cultures contact with and occasional
manipulation of other civilizations. This quote does not refer to any particular capabilities, but of ideology; Special Circumstances is a vast
amorphous entity within which there is no globally enforced ideology.
Quote:
With this, I'm assuming a star, like ours, since it says sun. Is this with or without energy shields?
Under normal circumstances, a ship's fields are always active and form a significant part of its overall structure, especially with Systems
Vehicles.
Quote:
Several trillion kilometers. All weapons or certain ones?
Virtually all of them.
Quote:
Obliterate planets from beyond their own system how? Displaced CAMs?
Displaced CAM and nanoholes, unnamed "bombs too small to see that could tear their planet apart" which were mentioned in The State of
the Art , Gridfire, perhaps gravitational weaponry like lineguns and pancakers can do it as well.
Quote:
Make stars go nova from light years away with the graviton cannon or something else?
The mechanisms used for stellar destruction are never stated in the books to my knowledge.
Quote:
1. The 2,000 km of transparent wall that was melting, how was it in relation to what was using the gridfire? Was the wall
straight or curved some way? Was the beginning of the wall closest to what was causing gridfire to appear and the end of
the wall furthest from what was causing the gridfire to appear or was it like the entire wall surface faced what was making
gridfire appear?
2. Is the shape of an Orbital circular? What's its size?
Orbitals are essentially scaled down ringworlds, which orbit a star rather than encompassing it. Vavatch had a circumference of 14 million
kilometers.
Quote:
Hyperspace is between the older and younger universes, but closer to real space. Does this mean you still interact with real
space or not?
Here is a diagram of the universe's structure.
Code:
etc
grid (grid two positive?)
hyperspace (ultraspace two positive)
skein (antimatter dominated)
hyperspace (ultraspace one negative)
grid (grid one positive?)
hyperspace (ultraspace one positive)
skein (matter dominated) <---------- you are here
hyperspace (infraspace one negative)
grid (grid one negative?)
hyperspace (infraspace one positive)
skein (antimatter dominated)
hyperspace (infraspace two negative)
grid (grid two negative?)
etc
Each skein of realspace is a three dimensional plane sandwiched between two 4D hypervolumes. For an object in hyperspace to directly
interact with realspace, it would have to intersect the skein.
Quote:
Travel time is 10 LY/hr, thought of as fast and FTL engines are 200 meters. Is this length, height?
Considered fast as of Consider Phlebas. As of Excession, 500 years later, the fastest ships are capable of ~300,000 c. 200 meters would
be the length of the entire ship.
Quote:
What about the trapdoor? I've heard it shunts energy away, but that it doesn't work on gravity? Does anyone know of any
text quotes for this or is this generally thought of as true, so the trapdoor doesn't shunt away the gravity of what it is trying
to protect and screw it up?
The trapdoor system is only directly seen and described once in the books, in Use of Weapons.
"Something flickered in the traveltube, and a capsule was suddenly there, door rolling open. 'What's this... trapdoor coverage, anyway?' he
asked the machine.
'General Systems Vehicle internal explosion protection,' the drone explained, letting the humans board the capsule first. 'Snaps anything
significantly more powerful than a fart straight into hyperspace; blast, radiation; the lot.'
'Shit,' he said, disgusted. 'You mean you can let nukes off in these fuckers and they don't even notice?'
The drone wobbled. 'They notice; probably nobody else does.'"
There is no other description of the trapdoor system given.
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herzeleid
User
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 29
Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:05 am Post subject:
Certainly one of the most dangerous weapons the Culture has is the Effector.
Summary of basic abilities: Manipulate biological nervous systems to cause pain, paralysis and take control of individual body parts. Read
and control biological or artificial brains; manipulate them to cause vivid dreams, alter their perception of events around them, place them
within realistic full-sensory hallucinations. Manipulate electronic, photonic and atomic mechanical systems. Remove energy from or add
energy to an object (suck and blow settings). Lightyear ranges. Can be targetted from hyperspace to realspace and vice versa, or across
the skein from one hypervolume to the other.
As for the rate at which effectors can subvert humans:
In Excession, during its 11 microsecond-long battle with the Pittance fleet, the ROU Killing Time subverted two other Minds and forced
them to commit suicide. Assuming that it takes five ?s for one Mind to subvert another, and that it takes the same time for a Mind to
subvert a human or equivalent, disregarding difference in structure and volume, a Mind would be able to subvert 200 000 humans in one
second.
The volume of a Mind is approximately 30 m³; a human brain is 1500 cm³. Assuming half the Mind's volume is dedicated to the thinking
parts, it would be ten thousand times more voluminous than a human brain. Again assuming five ?s, and the same work per volume to
subvert a human, and disregarding difference in structure, it would take a Mind approximately 500 picoseconds to subvert one human,
giving a sustained rate of up to two billion humans per second.
A Mind's thinking parts are stated to be very dense. Assuming 75% of a Mind's mass is composed of these parts, they would mass
11,250 tonnes. A human brain masses ~1.5 kg, making the Mind 7.5 million times more massive. Assuming the same work per mass to
subvert a human and disregarding the differences in structure at the molecular level and below, it would take a Mind approximately 600
femtoseconds to subvert one human, giving a sustained rate of up to 1.5 trillion subversions per second.
The relevant quotes from the books:
Consider Phlebas:
Quote:
"He was looking at the resulting image on an internal screen when it flickered and went out, the suit's hissings and hummings
stopped, and the stars started to fade away.
'Sapping/effector/fi...re...' said the suit, as it and Horza went limp and unconscious."
[...]
"'Our effector won't have damaged it, will it?' Another male; young sounding, cutting across what the woman had said.
'It was on suck, not blow,' the captain said, or whatever he was."
[...]
"'Wubslin,' (he turned to one of the other men) 'isn't that effector working properly?'
[...]
He cleared his throat and spoke as loudly and as determinedly as he could. 'There's nothing wrong with your effector.
'Then,' the tall man said, smiling thinly and arching one eyebrow, 'you should be dead."'
Quote:
"Idir was never attacked, and technically never surrendered. Its computer network was taken over by effector weapons,
and - freed of designed-in limitations - upgraded itself to sentience, to become a Culture Mind in all but name."
Excession:
Quote:
"And now he could feel something inside his head.
Whatever it was inside his head got him to close his eyes.
[...]
Who are you? What gives you the right to crawl inside my brains?
~ My name would be something like Gray Area in your language. What gives me the right to crawl inside your brains, as
you put it, is the same thing which gave you the right to do what you did to those you murdered; power. Superior power.
Vastly superior power, in my case."
Quote:
"The Gray Area. The ship that did what the other ships both deplored and despised; actually looked into the minds of other
people, using its Electromagnetic Effectors - in a sense the very, very distant descendants of electronic countermeasures
equipment from your average stage-three civilization, and the most sophisticated, powerful but also precisely controllable
weaponry the average Culture ship possessed - to burrow into the grisly cellular substrate of an animal consciousness and
try to make sense of what it found there..."
Quote:
"~ Suit? Genar-Hofoen thought.
~ What is it? said the gelfield. I thought you were talking to--
~ Never mind that now. See that blue scratchound?
~ Can't take my or your eyes off the damn thing.
~ Effectorize the fucker. Get it off the other one.
~ I can't do that! That would be cheating!
~ Fivetide's ass is hanging way out the merry-go-round on this, suit. Do it now or take personal responsibility for a major
diplomatic incident. Up to you.
~ What? But--
~Effectorize it now, suit. Come on; I know that last upgrade let you sneak it under the monitors. Oh! Look at that. Ow!
Can't you just feel those prosthetics around your neck? Fivetide must be kissing his diplomatic career good bye right now;
probably already working out a way to challenge me to a duel. After that, doesn't really matter if I kill him or he kills me;
probably come to war between--
~ All right! All right! There!
There was a buzzing sensation on top of Genar-Hofoen's right shoulder. The red scratchound jerked, the blue one doubled
up around its midriff and loosened its grip. The red collared beast wriggled out from underneath the other and, twisting,
turned on the other beast and immediately reversed the situation, fastening its prosthetic jaws around the throat of the
blue-collared animal."
Quote:
""The Killer-Class Limited Offensive Unit Attitude Adjuster," the drone said in a matter-of-fact, almost bored-sounding
voice. "Not a type we have here."
[...]
The ship was stopped now, almost filling the screen. The stars wheeled slowly behind it.
"Well, I--" the drone said, then stopped. The screen on the far side of the room flickered.
The drone's aura field flicked off. It fell out of the air, bouncing off the seat beside Gestra and toppling heavily, lifelessly, to
the floor.
Gestra stared at it. A voice like a sigh said, "... sssave yourssselfff..." then the lights dimmed, there was a buzzing noise from
all around Gestra and a tiny tendril of smoke leaked out of the top of the drone's casing."
Quote:
"Gestra Ishmethit, his mind-state plucked from his dying brain in the evacuated cold of the warship halls in Pittance by the
guilt-stricken Attitude Adjuster, appropriated from that craft just before it destroyed itself by the attacking Killing Time and
subsequently passed on until it came to rest in the restocked memory vaults of the Sleeper Service, had also been woken
up and furnished with a new body by that time; death had neither improved his social skills nor sated his urge for solitude
and he, too, had asked to remain aboard the giant ship.
Quote:
"A flat screen to the Commander's left wavered, as if some still-greater power surge had sucked energy even from within its
protected circuits. A message flicked up on it:
~ Missed, you fuckers! the legend read.
[...]
~ And run a total level-zero systems check of your own equipment; if the ship was able to insert a message into your
command desk, it may have been able to carry out more pertinent mischief therein."
Quote:
"Besides, when they'd finally released him from the chair he'd been secured to while he'd been unconscious, the drone had
shown him an old but shinily mean looking knifemissile it contained within its casing and given him a brief but nasty stinging
sensation in his left little finger that it assured him was about a thousandth of the the pain its effector was capable of inflicting
upon him if he tried anything silly."
Quote:
"The argument went on. The ship's slave-drone looked from the girl to the elderly drone and then back again. It rose once
in the air fractionally, then settled back down again. It swiveled to Genar-Hofoen. "Excuse me," it said quietly.
Genar-Hofoen nodded.
The drone Churt Lyne was cut off in mid-sentence and floated gently down to the floor of the hangar. Ulver Seich scowled,
furious. Then she understood. She turned on the slave-drone, whirling round and jabbing a finger at it. "How da-"
The visor plate of her suit clanked shut; her suit powered down to statuelike immobility."
Quote:
"The Killing Time's effector focus was a few ships away now, spiraling out toward the Attitude Adjuster. It signaled
hurriedly to the five Rapid Offensive Units immediately around it. Each listened, understood, and obeyed. The Killing
Time's effector focus flicked from craft to craft, still coming closer.
[...]
The surrounding warships completed their changes. Just in time. When the attacking ship's effector targeted the first of
those craft, the focus did not flit on to the next as it had with all the rest; instead it stayed, latching on, concentrating and
strengthening. The ROU caved in alarmingly quickly; the Attitude Adjuster guessed that it was made to reconfigure its
engine feilds to focus them inside its Mind-there was a sort of signaled shriek an instant before its communication was
lost-but the exact nature of its downfall was hidden in an accompanying shower of CAM warheads which obliterated it
instantaneously. A mercy; it would have been a grisly way to die."
Quote:
"it had allowed the human on Pittance to be destroyed (but it had fastened its effector on his puny animal brain when it had
seen what was happening to him; it had read the animal's brain-state, copied it, sucked it out of him before he'd died, so
that at least he might live again in some form! Look! it had the file here...there it went...)"
Quote:
"As the drone approached the suit it raised one arm toward the fleeing machine. To a human the arm would have appeared
to move almost impossibly quickly, flicking up at the machine, but to the drone the gesture looked languid, almost leisurely;
surely this could not be all the threat the suit was capable of--
The drone had only the briefest warning of the suit's holstered gun exploding; until that instant the gun hadn't even been
apparent to the machine's senses, shielded somehow. There was no time to stop, no opportunity to use its own EM effector
on the gun's controls to prevent it from overloading, nowhere to take cover, and - in the thick mist of gasses flooding the
corridor - no way of accelerating beyond the danger."
Quote:
"Eventually a heavy maintenance unit, about the size of a human torso and escorted by a trio of small self-motivated effector
sidearms, appeared at the far end of the vertical companionway above it and floated down through the currents of climbing
gas until they were directly over the small, pocked, smoking and splintered casing of the drone. The effector weapons' aim
had stayed locked onto the drone the whole way down.
Then one of the guns powered up and fired at the small machine.
Shit. Bit summary, dammit... the drone had time to think.
But the effector was powered only enough to produce a two-way communication channel.
[...]
The drone thought about lying, but now it could feel the effector weapon in its mind, and knew that not only the weapon
and the maintenance drone but the ship and whatever had taken over all of them could see it was thinking about lying...
[...]
Silence for a moment. Then,
~ I see. The displacer copied your mind-state to the machine it ejected. That was why we found your twin so handily
placed to intercept you when we realized you were not yet ours and there might be a way out via the displacer.
[...]
But with that, the effector weapon altered its setup momentarily, and - in effect - sucked the little machine's intellect out of
its ruined and smoldering body."
Quote:
"There was a sort of buzzing sensation from somewhere; Genar-Hofoen felt his legs go numb. The woman collapsed over
his legs. He felt sick. Lines of red dots crossing the sky floated behind his eyelids when they closed.
[...]
The cloak went rigid beneath him and floated into the air, wrapping round him. He cried out and tried to fight against its
enclosing black folds, but the buzzing came again and his vision faded even before the cloak finished wrapping iself round
him.
The Player of Games:
Quote:
The next thing he knew he'd been shoved down into the grass…
[…]
…as though shoulder-charged by someone invisible. He stared at amazement at the tiny machine floating above him…
[…]
He went limp. The shout died in his mouth.
[…]
He could move his eyes. Nothing else. He remembered the missile shoot and the immobility the suit had imposed on him
when it had been hit once too often. This was worse. This was paralysis.
[…]
The machine darted down towards his face; he felt his coat collar pulled. His head and upper torso were lifted with a jerk
from the damp ground until he stared helplessly at the grey-blue casing of the small machine. Pocket-size, he thought,
wishing he could blink, and glad of the rain because he could not. Pocket-size; it would fit into one of the big pockets in this
coat.
[…]
'My sensory systems, my weapons, my very memory-capacity; all reduced, laid waste: crippled. I peek into shells in a
Stricken game, I push you down with an eight-strength field and hold you there with an excuse for an electro-magnetic
effector … but this is nothing, Jernau Gurgeh; nothing.'"
Quote:
"But he did discover that a drone like Mahwrin-Skel, even in civilianised form, was capable of sustaining a one way
real-time link with such a ship over millennia distances, so long as the ship was watching out for the signal and knew where
to look.
[…]
From what he could tell from the information he'd discovered, Mawhrin-Skel's claim that the Mind had recorded their
conversation would not hold up if the ship was more than about twenty millennia away…"
Quote:
"'How far away is it from here?' 'Hey; calm down. It's about two and a half millennia away.'
[…]
Two thousand five hundred light years. It was, as the urbanely well-travelled people on a GSV would say, a long walk. But
close enough -by quite a long way- for a warship to minutely target an effector, throw a sensing field a light-second in
diameter across the sky, and pick up the weak but indisputable flicker of coherent HS light coming from a machine small
enough to fit into a pocket."
Quote:
"The ship saluted too, using its effectors to produce artificial auroras; roaring, shifting folds of light in the clear still air above
it."
Use of Weapons:
Quote:
"The drone sensed odd brain wave patterns.
[…]
The drone monitored the man's brain activity and blood flow and thought there was trouble coming.
[…]
'Aneurysm!' the drone said quickly, and slipped through the air, past Sma to the bed, where the man was shaking
spastically. It scanned him more thoroughly; found a massive blood vessel leakage pouring into the man's brain.
It whirled him round, straightened him out, used its effector to make him unconscious.
[…]
He stopped breathing. Skaffen-Amtiskaw used another aspect of its force field to keep his chest moving in and out, while
its effector gently persuaded the muscles that opened his lungs to work again
[…]
His heart stopped; the drone kept it going with its effector.
[…]
It stripped away the layers of the man's brain with its own senses; cortex, limbic, thalamus/cerebellum, it moved through his
defences and armaments, down his throroughfares and ways, through the stores and the lands of his memories, searching
and mapping and tapping and searing.
[…]
It sucked more blood to decrease the man's blood pressure, used its effector to alter the settings in the appropriate glands,
so that the pressure would not grow so great again for a while."
Quote:
"They must have been hit by some crude effector weapon as well, because the plasma rifle seemed to have fused. It had
been cradled between his suit and the capsule skin and couldn't have been affected by whatever wrecked the capsule itself,
but the weapon had smoked and got hot, and when they'd finally landed - Beychae shaken but unhurt - and opened the
gun's inspection panels, it was to find a melted, still warm mess inside."
Quote:
"He watched through the stone balustrade , scanning the group with the suit's built-in effector and watching the results on
the visor-screen head-up. Thirty plus of the people were carrying what were in effect terminals; links to the planet's
communications net. The suit's computer covertly interrogated the terminals through the effector. Two of the terminals were
switched on; one receiving a sports broadcast, another receiving music. The rest were on stand-by.
'Suit,' he whispered (not that even Tsoldrin, right beside him, could have heard him, let alone the people in the tourist group.
'I want to disable those terminals, quietly; to stop them from transmitting.'
'Two receiving terminals are transmitting location code,' the suit said.
'Can I disable their transmit function without altering their present location code function, or their present reception?'
'Yes.'
'Right; the priority being preventing any further new signals, disable all the terminals.'
'Disabling all thirty-four non-Culture personal commnet terminals within range; confirm.'
'Confirmed, dammit; do it...'
'Order carried out.'
He watched the head-up alter as the internal power-states of the terminals sank back to near zero.
[…]
'Suit; patch into the aircraft; assume control without letting anyone else know'
Quote:
"They moved along a staff-only corridor, through two security doors which swung open for them even before they got to
them, then - after a pause - came out into a huge crowded concourse full of people, screens, kiosks and seats. Nobody
noticed them, because a moving walkway had just slammed to a stop, toppling dozens of people on top of each other.
A security camera in the left luggage area swung up to look at the ceiling for the minute it took them to deposit the suitcase
with the suit in it. The instant they'd gone, the camera resumed its slow sweeping.
More or less the same happened when they picked up their tickets at the appropriate desk. Then, while they were walking
along another corridor, they saw a party of armed security guards enter from the other end.
He just kept on walking. He sensed Beychae hesitate at his side. He turned, smiled easily at the other man, and when he
turned back, the guards were stopped, the leading guard holding one hand to his ear and looking at the floor; he nodded,
turned and pointed to a side corridor; the guards set off down it.
'We're not just being incredibly lucky, I take it?' Beychae muttered.
He shook his head. 'Not unless you count it as incredibly lucky that we've got a near military-standard electro-magnetic
effector controlled by a hyper-fast starship Mind working this entire port like an arcade game from a light-year or so off,
no.'"
Look to Windward:
Quote:
"The order came to attack the flock of birds. The drone instigated a prey-rich-environment targeting regime, but then
another order countermanded the first and told it to attack a group of three more defense drones which had just risen from
the nearest seastack. It curved away, zooming to gain height.
Lasers flickered from cupolas high on two of the seastacks, but the flock of birds had become a swarm of insects; the
weapon light found few of them and those it did simply reflected it. Then the two laser towers began to fire on each other,
and both exploded in balls of flame.
The first drone attacked the other three as they spread out and accelerated toward the swarm of insects. It shot down one
before it was itself destroyed. Then the other two drones attacked each other, swooping in and ramming at high speed in a
flash and a single sharp detonation of sound; much of the resulting wreckage was composed of pieces small enough to drift
on the wind. Several small- and medium-sized explosions shook each of the seastacks, and smoke began to drift across the
blue sky.
The insect swarm collected on a broad balcony and resumed the form of a Chelgrian female. She knocked the balcony
doors down and stepped into the room. Alarms warbled. She frowned and they fell silent. The only sensory or command
system not fully under her control was a tiny passive camera in one corner of the room. She was to leave the complex's
security monitoring system uncorruputed, so that what was done here was seen to be done, and recorded.."
The State of the Art:
Quote:
"Meanwhile its effectors, and those on its main satellites, probed every computer, monitored every landline, tapped every
microwave link, and listened to every radio transmission on Earth."
Here is an excerpt from Excession, showing what Attitude Adjuster experienced as it was interrogated and subverted by Killing Time:
Quote:
It had originally contacted the five nearest ships, hoping that the first one found and interrogated by the attacker's systems
would fool the Killing Time into believing it had found the one ship it was obviously seeking.
But that was stupid. It sensed the Torturer-class ship's effectors sweep over the craft on the far side of the hole in the wave
of ships which the ROU's destruction had created.
Insufficient elasped time, the Attitude Adjuster whispered to itself. The ROU being quizzed at the moment was still
reconfiguring its internal systems signature to resemble that of the Attitude Adjster. The effector sweep flicked away from it,
dismissing. The Attitude Adsuster quailed.
It had made itself a target! It should have-HERE IT CAME!
A feeling of-
No, it had gone, swept over it! Its own disguise had worked. It had been dismissed, too, like the ROU alongside!
The effector jumped to another craft still further away. The Attitude Adjuster was dizzy with relief. It had survived! The
plan still held, the huge filthy trick they were pulling was free to continue!
The way to the Excession lay open; the other Minds in the conspiracy would commend it if it survived; the-... but it mustn't
think of the other ships involved. It had to accept responsibility for what had happened. It and it alone. It was the traitor. It
would never reveal who had instigated this ghastly, gigadeathcrime-risking scheme; it had to assume the blame itself.
It had wrestled with the Mind at Pittance and pressed it when it had insisted it would die rather than yield (but it had had no
choice!); it had allowed the human on Pittance to be destroyed (but it had fastened its effector on his puny animal brain
when it had seen what was happening to him; it had read the animal's brain-state, copied it, sucked it out of him before he'd
died, so that at least he might live again in some form! Look! it had the file here...there it went...). It had fooled the
surrounding ships, it had lied to them, sent them messages from...from the ships it could not bear to think about.
But it was the right thing to do!
...Or was it just the thing it had chosen to believe was the right thing to do, when the other ships, the other Minds had
persuaded it? What had its real motives been? Had it not just been flattered to be the object of such attention? Had it not
always resented being passed over for certain small but prestigious missions in the past, nursing bitter resentment that it was
not trusted because it was seen as being-what? A hard-liner? Too inclined to shoot first? Too cynical toward the soft
ideologies of the meat-beings? Too mixed up in its feelings about its own martial prowess and the shaming moral
implications of being a machine for war? All those things, a little, perhaps. But that wasn't all its fault!
... And yet, did it not accept that one had an irreducible ethical responsibility for one's own actions? It did. And it accepted
that and it had done terrible, terrible things. All the attempts it had made to compensate had been eddies in the flood; tiny
retrograde movements toward good entirely produced by the ferocious turbulence of its headlong rush to ill.
It was evil.
How simple that reductive conclusion seemed.
But it had been obliged!... and yet it could not identify them, and so the full weight of their distributed guilt bore down on
the single point that was itself, unbearable.
But there were others!... And yet, still it could not bear to think of them.
And to somebody, some other entity, looking in from the outside, say, would have to conclude, would it not, that perhaps
these others did not really exist, that the whole thing, the whole ghastly abomination that was this plot was its idea, its own
little conspiracy, thought up and executed by itself alone? Was that not the case?
But that was so unfair! That wasn't true!... And yet, it could not release the identities of its fellow plotters. Suddenly it felt
confused. Had it made them up? Were they real? Perhaps it ought to check; open the place where they were stored and
look at the names of real Minds, real ships, or that it was not implicating innocent parties.
But that was terrible! Whichever way it fell after that, that was awful! It hadn't made them up! They were real!... But it
couldn't prove it because it just couldn't reveal them.
Maybe it ought to just call the whole thing off. Maybe it ought to signal the other ships around it to break away, stop,
retreat, or just open their comm channels so they could accept the signals from other ships, other Minds, and be persuaded
of the folly of their cause. Let them make up their own minds, They were intelligent beings no less than it. What right had it
to send intelligent beings to their deaths on the strength of a heinous, squalid lie? But it had to!... And yet, still, no; no it
couldn't say who the others had been.
It mustn't think of them! And it couldn't possibly call off them attack! It couldn't! No! NO! No! Greif! Meat! Stop! Stop it!
Let it go ! Sweet nothingness, anything was better than this wracking, tearing uncertainty, any horror preferable to the
wrenching dreadfullness boiling uncontrolably in its Mind.
Atrocity. Abomination. Gigadeathcrime.
It was worthless and hateful, despicable and foul; it was wrung out, exhausted and incapable of revelation or
communication. It hated itself and what it had done more, much more than it had ever hated anything; more, it was sure,
than anything had ever been hated in all existance. No death could be too painful or protracted...
And suddenly it knew what it had to do.
It de-coupled its engine fields from the energy grid and plunged those vortices of pure energy deep into the fabric of its own
Mind, tearing its intellect apart in a supernova of sentient agony.
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Rakaia
User
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 3
Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:
Ahh, I know I'm really new and all, but, isn't this a bit ridiculous? From the sound of it, The Culture would be able to win with almost no
effort. Regardless of what the engineers can alter and amplify, wouldn't Trek have been destroyed before they even knew they were in
danger? How much proof is needed to prove a point to you? From the look of it, they've swamped you with proof while you haven't really
done anything but try to discredit it by questioning it with something that sounds like it's completely irrelevant.
Or will you keep harping at it until the other people get sick of fighting with you and just leave the thread?
I know I'm a complete newb to this forum, but I've been to others, and this is progressively going downhill...
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dakarne
User
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 2915
Location: England,
Scoffing Commoners
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:38 am Post subject:
(pokes the newb)
I only started the thread as revenge for Star Trek: Nemesis...
I'm moving on to punishing Star Wars for Jar Jar Binks next...
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GStone
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:46 am Post subject:
Rakaia wrote:
Ahh, I know I'm really new and all, but, isn't this a bit ridiculous? From the sound of it, The Culture would be able to win
with almost no effort. Regardless of what the engineers can alter and amplify, wouldn't Trek have been destroyed before
they even knew they were in danger? How much proof is needed to prove a point to you? From the look of it, they've
swamped you with proof while you haven't really done anything but try to discredit it by questioning it with something that
sounds like it's completely irrelevant.
Or will you keep harping at it until the other people get sick of fighting with you and just leave the thread?
I know I'm a complete newb to this forum, but I've been to others, and this is progressively going downhill...
1. The proof that keeps being provided is on tech development, but never anything that would let the Culture hit a phased Fed ship. It
doesn't matter how far away you can blow up a star, if you can't even touch your opponet when they're right in front of you.
2. The proof I would need would be evidence the Culture can scan things in different realities other than their hyperspace and maybe, if
they had the tech to bring phased things out of phase, such as when 7 brought that scientist back in phase that was part of the group doing
experiments on them. The Culture can't use Fed equipment, because that violates the rules of the v debate. There are known limits to what
they know and can do, otherwise they'd find a way for the trapdoors to shunt gravitational force, too.
3. Many of the pro-Culture side say that the Fed would be so quickly wiped out, but no proof is given that shows they would just pounce
on the Federation, like that or that they move around, like that in such a quick fashion.
Let's say that the Culture did do a surprise attack and the Feds had absolutely no warning. They are still spread out and not everyone of
the Federation is actually in Fed territory at any one time. I'm not saying allies would be brought in because that goes against 1v1 versus
fights, but there are spies, ambassadors, etc. in other territories. Even the Culture can't account for every Fed all the time and you can't
guarentee that that those outside of Fed territory could pull off the scenario. I can't guarentee it either, but I'm not dismissing the possibility
and I'm not necessarily talking about Section 31, either. It could be a regular scientist.
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dakarne
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject:
Quote:
1. The proof that keeps being provided is on tech development, but never anything that would let the Culture hit a phased
Fed ship. It doesn't matter how far away you can blow up a star, if you can't even touch your opponet when they're right in
front of you.
Gridfire works on multidimensional energy... proof that it can't hit a phased fed ship? In fact, proof that the Fed ships will be using phase
cloaks altogether outside of your own erotic fantasies would be nice as well.
Quote:
2. The proof I would need would be evidence the Culture can scan things in different realities other than their hyperspace
and maybe, if they had the tech to bring phased things out of phase, such as when 7 brought that scientist back in phase that
was part of the group doing experiments on them. The Culture can't use Fed equipment, because that violates the rules of
the v debate. There are known limits to what they know and can do, otherwise they'd find a way for the trapdoors to shunt
gravitational force, too.
The Federation can't use Culture tech either...
The point is, the Federation won't see them coming until it's too late... I've seen trekwanking before, but this is rediculous... no one agrees
with you, not even the Pro-Trek debators or Darkstar agree with you... You're making reasonable up to justify that Trek is supposedly
unbeatable... Why didn't they use the Phase Tech to beat the Scimitar? Also, you have no proof that the Torpedoes were even phased
besides the NAME!!! And we all know how unreliable weapon names are... look at Turbolasers.
Quote:
3. Many of the pro-Culture side say that the Fed would be so quickly wiped out, but no proof is given that shows they
would just pounce on the Federation, like that or that they move around, like that in such a quick fashion.
ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND???
The Culture attack from ranges in the several thousand Lightyears... and they wield weapons capable of destroying stars from that long
distances... there's no way that the Federation can survive... you're just making reasonable claims up which have no bearing on Trek CANON,
now shut up and stop butchering Trek, Arsehole.
Quote:
Let's say that the Culture did do a surprise attack and the Feds had absolutely no warning. They are still spread out and not
everyone of the Federation is actually in Fed territory at any one time. I'm not saying allies would be brought in because that
goes against 1v1 versus fights, but there are spies, ambassadors, etc. in other territories. Even the Culture can't account for
every Fed all the time and you can't guarentee that that those outside of Fed territory could pull off the scenario. I can't
guarentee it either, but I'm not dismissing the possibility and I'm not necessarily talking about Section 31, either. It could be
a regular scientist.
Other than the ability to detect a penlight from several thousand lightyears away... no... there is no proof that they can detect the
Federation...
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dakarne
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject:
http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~stefan/culture.html
GStone...
Read this, come back... The Culture's Idea of Utopia is a shitload more impressive than the Federation's... so why you're sticking up for
the Federation even in that department, I've got no Idea
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GStone
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Gridfire works on multidimensional energy... proof that it can't hit a phased fed ship?
Gridfire works on targets in real space? Yes. In hyperspace? I don't know, but the phase I'm talking about would be that which is used to
move from 1 parallel reality to another, not switching between older and younger universes of the same reality.
I've never heard of gridfire hitting targets in a parallel reality not connected the the main universe that would have the Federation in it, where
the Culture attacks.
Quote:
In fact, proof that the Fed ships will be using phase cloaks altogether outside of your own erotic fantasies would be nice as
well.
The scenario is hardly erotic.
I have already gone over the use of a phase shifter that moves you between realities with Roondar. Read that post. I could have the
opposite scenario where the Feds attack with one ship using a "phasing drive" and no Feds are killed, but I'm gonna go with the Culture
attacking.
Quote:
The Federation can't use Culture tech either...
And? I never even implide they could.
Quote:
The point is, the Federation won't see them coming until it's too late...
Based on what? Their long distance ranges? How late is 'too late'? As I said earlier, even the Culture can't account for every movement of
all Fed people. Many aren't in Fed territory or on the same side of the galaxy.
Quote:
I've seen trekwanking before, but this is rediculous... no one agrees with you, not even the Pro-Trek debators or Darkstar
agree with you...
1. I don't make theories based on popularity. I don't give a shit, if I never hear of someone agreeing with me on this. I can live my life
without hearing it. I don't need praise from others to bolster my ego on this. If someone says they agree, that's fine, too. That's up to them.
2. Did you actually take a poll or are you just assuming? I'm betting you're just assuming. Plus, Darkstar is too busy being a hurricane
survivor right now to worry about a debate between any franchises (though his general attitude towards debating these days is more
towards not getting involved than not), unless you spoke to him personally.
I know I haven't spoken to him about it and even though we agree on almost everything in Trek v Wars, I haven't a clue what he would
feel about my scenario, but I am perfectly capable of defending my argument. Numbers aren't important to me.
Quote:
You're making reasonable up to justify that Trek is supposedly unbeatable...
Hardly. I've never said they were unbeatable. You do like to make these claims about me without much justification, as well as thinking I
might come up with a way to beat the Timelords with Trek when a versus debate can't take place between them because much of
Timelord tech is unknown. I had already looked into it long ago. They have impressive stuff, but most is unknown, at least the TV stuff. I
haven't seen anything to say the spin off stuff is canon. So, that debate is unknown at that point.
You may like the idea of using just brute force, but that is a very limited versus discussion that doesn't take a debate to all its possibilities. If
you are able to show the Culture using "parallel reality tech", we can discuss that and see how it would impact the scenario I've posted.
Quote:
Why didn't they use the Phase Tech to beat the Scimitar? Also, you have no proof that the Torpedoes were even phased
besides the NAME!!! And we all know how unreliable weapon names are... look at Turbolasers.
As was previously stated, either to you or someone else, Voyager had only been back a short time and there is no indication Temporal
Investigations took that technology away. Plus, as I said in the post I originally wrote the scenario in, there is more evidence that it could be
a device that phases with reality (such as the cube blowing up after we stop seeing torp shield glow, I believe) and the Federation's ability
to detect phased objects (interphasic organisms feeding off the crew and didn't notice the buggers themselves without equipment) and
openings that allow phased objects to "unphase" (the spirits of good fortune').
I don't need the name at all, which I have already gone over that it may not be accurate for determining the torp's function.
Perhaps you should reread through my posts before responding again. It's unnecessary we go over the same stuff, as before.
Quote:
ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND???
The Culture attack from ranges in the several thousand Lightyears... and they wield weapons capable of destroying stars
from that long distances... there's no way that the Federation can survive...
That is not what I'm talking about. You're mentioning single battles, which I thought might be said. I'm talking about a string of single
battles. Yes, they can be done quick with another group with a comperable tech level to the Culture, but I'm not seeing it with Fed tech
level. Because people are spread out, it will take time for them to gather forces to single areas, prevent shipping ships from being used, etc.
-- take time, especially from the Culture's standpoint. Strategically, it makes no sense to try to wipe them all out at once in a single surprise
attack because you would have to fly back and forth to get the much smaller pockets of people.
Or are we to believe the Culture are an impatient lot that wouldn't let its enemy corral themselves into large groups of ships and on planets
and stations? That wouldn't make them strategically good, if they just went around willy nilly without a plan besides 'blow up anything you
find'.
Quote:
you're just making reasonable claims up which have no bearing on Trek CANON, now shut up and stop butchering Trek,
Arsehole.
Even if you don't like my scenario...don't call me an arsehole. What are you talking about 'have no basis'? I've cited the canon, you just
can't disprove my theory.
I don't see why you're complaining so badly or anyone else that is vehement, as you. Is it because I came up with a way that I've never
seen anyone bring up before or did I just burst the bubble of a lot of people that held the Culture at such high praise that a franchise with
the tech level "claimed" to be so low for the Federation could beat a group of the Culture's development?
Beating them with an idea that many of the rabid pro-wars people have used themselves to try to make Wars actually have planet wide
shields -- stringing many theater shields together to cover the planet.
I was surprised, probably more than anyone, when it hit me. An idea so simple it could bring down the Culture? I was shocked and I'm not
easily shocked.
Quote:
Other than the ability to detect a penlight from several thousand lightyears away... no... there is no proof that they can
detect the Federation...
You are changing the topic. Yes, they can detect penlights from far away, but unless they know which direction to scan, it won't really
matter. If the Culture is just looking for Federation people and not getting involved with the others, which is standard for the versus debate,
there is still much of one half of the galaxy for the Feds to be at. Also, many can be in the Gamma quadrent on the other side of the
galaxy from traveling through the Bajoran wormhole.
So, once again, even the Culture can't account for every member of the Federation at any one time.
Quote:
Read this, come back... The Culture's Idea of Utopia is a shitload more impressive than the Federation's... so why you're
sticking up for the Federation even in that department, I've got no Idea
And the Culture made things so easy that humans are virtually pets. I'll take Trek's Federation any day of the week.
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dakarne
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:54 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Gridfire works on targets in real space? Yes. In hyperspace? I don't know, but the phase I'm talking about would be that
which is used to move from 1 parallel reality to another, not switching between older and younger universes of the same
reality.
Not older and younger universes... MIRROR UNIVERSES, you absolute twit, you have no Idea what you're even talking about, the
Culture's gridfire from 2000 LIGHTYEARS away is more than enough to tear the Feds apart.
Quote:
I've never heard of gridfire hitting targets in a parallel reality not connected the the main universe that would have the
Federation in it, where the Culture attacks.
You didn't even know what the culture could do until you read this thread.
Quote:
I have already gone over the use of a phase shifter that moves you between realities with Roondar. Read that post. I could
have the opposite scenario where the Feds attack with one ship using a "phasing drive" and no Feds are killed, but I'm
gonna go with the Culture attacking.
... Do you even know how stupid that sounds.
Quote:
Based on what? Their long distance ranges? How late is 'too late'? As I said earlier, even the Culture can't account for
every movement of all Fed people. Many aren't in Fed territory or on the same side of the galaxy.
Who says those on 'the other side of the galaxy' will even have ACCESS to the tech. Also, Culture long-distance ranges is on average 2
years worth of travel for Federation ships, and with the microsecond reactions and rate of gridfire alone... No bloody chance mate.
The Federation ships have to have someone hit "Phase" and have to have 2 hours of preperation as Geordie whips up something involving
the Navigational Deflector... sure, I'll accept the MacGuyvers, but they haven't done them at microsecond speeds before have they?
Quote:
2. Did you actually take a poll or are you just assuming? I'm betting you're just assuming. Plus, Darkstar is too busy being a
hurricane survivor right now to worry about a debate between any franchises (though his general attitude towards debating
these days is more towards not getting involved than not), unless you spoke to him personally.
I did actually read his website...
Darkstar's Website wrote:
As for the Asgard . . . they would quite probably wipe the floor with the UFP and the Empire, as could the
Culture, several times over.
Ahem.
Quote:
That is not what I'm talking about. You're mentioning single battles, which I thought might be said. I'm talking about a string
of single battles. Yes, they can be done quick with another group with a comperable tech level to the Culture, but I'm not
seeing it with Fed tech level. Because people are spread out, it will take time for them to gather forces to single areas,
prevent shipping ships from being used, etc. -- take time, especially from the Culture's standpoint. Strategically, it makes no
sense to try to wipe them all out at once in a single surprise attack because you would have to fly back and forth to get the
much smaller pockets of people.
There wouldn't be any battles at all... just Culture Ships sitting back and firing a shitload of gridfire on starships from several years' travel
away...
or they'd just use effectors...
Quote:
You are changing the topic. Yes, they can detect penlights from far away, but unless they know which direction to scan, it
won't really matter. If the Culture is just looking for Federation people and not getting involved with the others, which is
standard for the versus debate, there is still much of one half of the galaxy for the Feds to be at. Also, many can be in the
Gamma quadrent on the other side of the galaxy from traveling through the Bajoran wormhole.
Do they need to know the direction to scan, the Microsecond reaction times will have every single direction covered in only a few
seconds, that's if we assume it isn't omni-directional...
Quote:
And the Culture made things so easy that humans are virtually pets. I'll take Trek's Federation any day of the week.
Yep... threats of assimilation and murder every day vs. life of complete harmony... you take the former.
I'm tempted to stop posting in here, it's obvious that you've got no clue what you're talking about, and you're probably a schizophrenic little
man somewhere with a prized startrek stamp and toy collection...
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GStone
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:45 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Not older and younger universes... MIRROR UNIVERSES, you absolute twit, you have no Idea what you're even talking
about, the Culture's gridfire from 2000 LIGHTYEARS away is more than enough to tear the Feds apart.
I have talked about different universes before and was being specific in my last post because of the gridfire/trapdoor stuff. I was being
specific because of the tendency of more than one person on this board to try to weasel around what I write to spin it in a new direction.
Quote:
You didn't even know what the culture could do until you read this thread.
I knew some, just not a lot. And you think I have only gotten my information on the Culture since this thread started from just this thread?
Didn't happen that way. You have also yet to show the evidence I talked about before for their impacts on the scenario I presented.
Quote:
... Do you even know how stupid that sounds.
So, you don't actually have anything to say for this either. I'll just move on from this and the other sections above.
Quote:
Who says those on 'the other side of the galaxy' will even have ACCESS to the tech.
Who is to say that they wouldn't?
Quote:
Also, Culture long-distance ranges is on average 2 years worth of travel for Federation ships, and with the microsecond
reactions and rate of gridfire alone... No bloody chance mate.
Which has zero to do with the Culture's inability to keep track of every Fed. MO.
Quote:
The Federation ships have to have someone hit "Phase" and have to have 2 hours of preperation as Geordie whips up
something involving the Navigational Deflector... sure, I'll accept the MacGuyvers, but they haven't done them at
microsecond speeds before have they?
Said, while totally ignoring when I asked, if we are to believe that the Culture is an impatient lot. MO.
Quote:
I did actually read his website...
My creation of the scenario was a recent thing. When that was written, I hadn't come up with the scenario, so that has nothing to do with
my argument. If we are quoting Darkstar now, I'll say that you have anti-chronological thinking. MO.
Quote:
There wouldn't be any battles at all... just Culture Ships sitting back and firing a shitload of gridfire on starships from several
years' travel away...
or they'd just use effectors...
Situations that are by definition...battles. MO.
Quote:
Do they need to know the direction to scan, the Microsecond reaction times will have every single direction covered in only
a few seconds, that's if we assume it isn't omni-directional...
That would also assume galaxy wide sensor ranges. Any proof?
Quote:
Yep... threats of assimilation and murder every day vs. life of complete harmony... you take the former.
"Complete harmony", such as any utopia, all come with a price. The Culture's is too high for my taste because it's too easy. You have
access to a vast array of chemicals for your body, change your sex, I think, and a whole bunch of other crap that makes "complete
harmony" the most boring excuse for a society I've ever heard of.
Quote:
I'm tempted to stop posting in here, it's obvious that you've got no clue what you're talking about, and you're probably a
schizophrenic little man somewhere with a prized startrek stamp and toy collection...
I got the communicator and tricorder toys when I was a kid. I never had a uniform or vulcan ears or t-shirts or dressed up as a Trek
character. I only got a couple eps of TNG, DS9 and Voyager on tape 'cause I wanted them. I don't live in a basement or go to
conventions. No posters, buttons, hats or video games (PC or otherwise). I do have the 2 X-Men/Trek crossover comics and the 2 tech
manuals. I don't buy the books or play RPGs, but I do have every Trek movie on tape, except Nemesis and Insurrection are on DVD.
And, actually, I have every clue about what I'm talking about. Do you see me throwing insults around? No, because I have the arguments,
facts and reason. You try to discredit my scenario by sticking to just brute force phrases, say insults and not provide evidence to your
statements for my questions.
I'm not the one with the problem. You just can't disprove my scenario and hate that.
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dakarne
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject:
Proof, if any whatsoever, that the Federation has time to upsize a Phase Device (not to mention implement it across a massive fleet) in
about, say, a MICROSECOND?
... you don't have any, and thus, you'll lose.
The Culture may miss some people, but of course, wouldn't all access to the phase tech, at all, be on earth, and there's federation law, and
the fact that the FLAGSHIP didn't have it... there's no way for you to win this scenario...
Also, on a note of Fanboyishness...
I have only Video-Games, Books and of course, The Films, for both franchises, I have more stuff on my Computer than off of it, and even
then... that's not saying much.
Also, not accounting for every person isn't really that much of a concern... so long as you track down and kill every scientist... believe me,
Culture minds can tell.
And the Utopia, the Culture wouldn't be boring in any sense of the word, they most likely have holodecks too, and it's a large galaxy, you
could, like you know, explore.