The Culture versus the UFP & Allies

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Who wins, then?

Federation
4
24%
Culture
13
76%
 
Total votes: 17

OmniBack
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Post by OmniBack » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:46 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: 3. In the light of this scenario, nevermind what that Banks guy says. You can chalk it up to something they think is impossible, but actually is.
If this fight is taking place in Cultureverse then time travel is out...

And if it is taking place in Trekverse, it wouldn't help much because the Culture originated in another universe/dimension...

However, if it is taking place in a VSverse where both sides rules apply as long as they don't conflict with each other...


Guess what?


The Culture just got time travel! And the Star Trek races still lose!

GStone
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Post by GStone » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:11 pm

Anisarian wrote:Tell me GStone, which of the books have you read? I ask out of Curiosity, cause you don't seem to know anything real about the Culture at all.
Point in fact, I do. I have only read myself parts of several books. I have been so busy over the last several years that I haven't had the chance to. However, on the last board, I did have an extensive fact finding discussion with a poster named 'herzeleid', who was a wealth of knowledge about the Cultureverse. A couple pages ago, I posted my exchanges with him from the last board, as well as my posts to a few other posters in that thread.
The Mind can recreate technological effects of treknology without havinganything to base it off but TOS trek Effects? Thats more impressive then being able to create something when the physics are given to it.
That doesn't mean its method of operation is exactly how it is in the Trek or Wars canon.
My point was not that they would have previous knowledge of Treknology, my point was that for a party they could recreate the exact effects of it. For a party. For a party. Got that bit yet?
Except, it can only recreate a certain number of the effects. Without knowledge of how it operates, the all of the exact effects can't be recreated.
So? Culture technology allows to recreate the effects of Treknology, even if the science isn't the same.
Then, tell me how it can know all of the effects when the method of operation is unknown? There are only a few things that are known of the effects. Disintegration of matter? The effect on the surrounding environment is unknown, as is how matter is disintegrated.
The Ability to produce their technology was meant to show that the Federation technology is vastly inferior to the Cultures, but you seemed to ignore that point rather nicely, so is shall state it again, Federation Military Tech was Recreated for a Party.
Irrelevent. Inferior or not is not the issue. What the comparissons are and how they can be used is.
Banks said Time Travel is physically impossible in his universe, this isn't something the Minds ever actually mention, but something that Banks said. The Culture Universe doesn't allow for Time Travel Physically.

You say the Minds are dumb because they ruled out a Technology that Banks has stated was physically impossible. Congrats, your an idiot.
And with all their brains, they have no knowledge of time travel physics. We know that with a warp drive, you can time travel by slingshotting around the sun. If they coldn't recreate all of it, they won't know how it all works for a couple reasons:

1. Spock never said all the calculations on screen, nor has anyone else.
2. If the Minds are incapable of using time travel, that means they can't understand the physics. And yet, beings with less intelligence than Minds understand enough to do it.
3. It is an example of something that, while impossible to The Culture, is not for the Federation. They know whys and hows. What the Culture doesn't is on the subject.
Sadly for the Feds the thing they lack isn't going to matter one Iota when it comes to combat, since the things the Federation lack are much more important.
It's this kind of thinking that led to the creation of an exhaust shaft that leads directly to the reaction chamber.
For what? Setting limits on his universe? Making damn good stories and not fucking it up with inane Time Travel Plots half way through an established technology base? keeping himself to a higher standard then the writers of Trek who gave up on keeping anything sensical or consistant and just threw it all together in a string of plotlines?
For setting the limit. That would have been obvious to everyone because of what I had said before it. It's got nothing to do with the quality of stories anyone writes.
I think I shall, but its not the same sort of Blame I cast on you for giving Star Trek Debaters everywhere a bad name.
Exactly, because we can't ever have differing opinions on things. We've got to be aaaaaaall the same.
Books are Canon, as are things such as his "There is no Time Travel in my Universe", however the No time Travel thing is not a factor in debates against universe where Time Travel is used Commonly in the setting.
You so need to rewrite this. Everything makes sense until it says 'against universe'. Time travel doesn't work in the Culture, so are you talking about Trek? It isn't that common in Trek. I'd say a place it's common is the Whovian'verse.
Now GStone
Now Anisarian

I like how people do this as if I wouldn't be able to notice it in its unbolded state.
Throughout this Debate you have spouted reasonable about how the Culture will get destroyed, how it would loose.
Here it comes. Really, I don't see you actually feeling that I've been reasonable so far.
Here is what you have to prove to us. If you cannot prove the following with quotes then I, and everyone else arguing, will accept it as the closest we are going to get to a concession and move on.
If you want. I just realized I missed the 4:30 showing of The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, but I still have 2 more times tonight before I go to bed, unless they fuck with the schedule.
Prove the Following:

(1) That the Federation can produce enough of these weapons, as well as equipt enough of their fleets to fight the Sleeper Service and her 90,000 strong fleet within the time it takes the Sleeper Service to cross the Entirety of Federation Space (12 Days roughly)
That's pretty high for what I've been talking about. Eh, one ship with a replicator should be able to do it. That hadn't been my argument at all.
(2) That your 'Gravitaional Gridfire' is stronger then the weaponry that is thrown around against Culture Warships.
This is also unnecessary, at least in the primary reasoning. What would be required is gravitaional energy that is used to rip apart the components of the generators on board the ships, for things, like the trapdoor, fields, the Minds, etc. While the Minds do exist partially in hyperspace to help with their heightened speeds, a part of them does exist in real space.
Since phasing in may as well be Displacing in, the only thing this is going to do to suprise a Culture Warship is give off more energy then their own weapons.
Not quite. Displacement uses wormholes, last I heard. This type of phasing doesn't use a wormhole. The energy is sent on a delay, so that it can once again interact with the phase of the other side in normal space.
Prove Federation can mass Produce Death Star level Planet killers to kill Culture ships.
The replicator and its big brother, the industrial replicator.

(3) Prove that the Federation can match Culture Reaction Speeds.[/quote]

Not required. Since you're giving this 12 day thing a shot, that's plenty of time to go back to being phased or start the phasing device up. That is really all that's required to get the plan underway and out of the reach of the Culture stuff.
As it is, you haven't done this, and we have provided quotes showing the entire battle with the Killing Time Taking 11 Microseconds.
Because it hasn't been necessary. You're insisting that things in this match up only go in a certain set direction. That's a limitation that was not set by the opening post and because it wasn't set there, makes to sense for me to limit my argument to such a thing.
To give you an idea, stop watches don't usually measure in lengths that long unless they are specialty science Gear. Prove that anything in the Federation, Excluding Q can react that fast.
An electron can move 1.33m in 5.8 microseconds. And that's without any stupid technology!!!!!!!
If you can prove all that with Quotes showing each we may actually look into this debate a little more. If not, we accept your Concession.
Your insistence on these particular quotes is unnecessary. And you still don't have my concession.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:14 pm

OmniBack wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: 3. In the light of this scenario, nevermind what that Banks guy says. You can chalk it up to something they think is impossible, but actually is.
If this fight is taking place in Cultureverse then time travel is out...

And if it is taking place in Trekverse, it wouldn't help much because the Culture originated in another universe/dimension...

However, if it is taking place in a VSverse where both sides rules apply as long as they don't conflict with each other...


Guess what?


The Culture just got time travel! And the Star Trek races still lose!
What I always prefer is that the fights take place in 'neutral space', where the physics of the technology work simultaneously, but the other side can't use the physics of the other side.

Narsil
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Post by Narsil » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:20 pm

GStone wrote:What I always prefer is that the fights take place in 'neutral space', where the physics of the technology work simultaneously, but the other side can't use the physics of the other side.
It's in the Trekverse, where time travel is possible. They suddenly see that very slight difference in laws of physics (and have likely theorised it before - see the Land of Infinite Fun) and then the Sleeper Service turns very rapidly into a Time Lord-esque entity, if you want.

Alternately, after losing a few droneships, the Sleeper Service decides to reply with the Q method and Sublime.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:03 pm

Oh, yes. Now...on page 6...do you mention that they sublime. Why? Because they got bored with the material universe? But, tell me. Has a sublime individual or civilization ever effected anything that exists within the phase variance ranges people like the Srivani have been at? Or are they doing this to create a stalemate?

Narsil
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Post by Narsil » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:22 pm

The Sublimed are Q-like, mate. They write their names in nebulae for fun and turn up to sporting events while being completely inaccessible from the material universe except by others who choose to Sublime.

And yes, I could imagine the Sleeper Service subliming out of utter boredom, it is an Eccentric after all.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:29 pm

So, you've decided to change things and make this match up a stalemate?

Roondar
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Post by Roondar » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:11 am

One thing of note:

If VS debate rules state you can't use technology not in your possesion at the time of the 'VS' then the Federation can't use the idea GStone posted.

Mainly because we have ample canon evidence they don't actually have the combat device he has thought up. I'll conceed they have shown some ability to phase themselves (not that their ships actually have phase-cloaks on board) but they have never, ever shown temporally phased weapons. Ever.

Not even when the very Federation depended on it. They never even suggested using weapons of that kind. Not in FC when they fought their -and I quote- "Most lethal enemy". Not in Nemesis when everything else they did failed. Not in any of the other series or movies either.

In fact, canon suggests they might get some kind of phased weapon eventually, but that this won't happen for many years from now (in a timeline that might not actually end up happening).

Point being they don't have the weapon now. They'd have to figure it out first. Which is, as GStone so kindly reminded me, not something allowed in a VS debate - in a VS debate you take the factions as they are and don't add stuff.

OmniBack
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Post by OmniBack » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:33 pm

Anyone here who is actually arguing in favor of Star Trek, is doesn't know enough about the Culture... its a bad joke.

GStone
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Post by GStone » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:29 am

Roondar wrote:One thing of note:

If VS debate rules state you can't use technology not in your possesion at the time of the 'VS' then the Federation can't use the idea GStone posted.
Yes, each side does have the technology and tactics and knowledge it has at the point in space and time when the match up is assigned, but versus debates go further. Many people just look at weapon stats, engines speeds and the like and make a decision that way. But, versus debates truly do go further, if one chooses.

If one does, the last step is to state how each side can or could act and react to what happens from the opposing side. In Trek in universe battles, one example would be randomizing phaser emission frequencies when fighting the borg for as long as possible. In First Contact, after they went as far as they could, Picard told them to do what they could, even if it meant fighting hand-to-hand. Then, he goes to the observation room to work on the weapon he had, using the knowledge he had of the borg. What exactly he was trying to do, we don't know, but he was trying to change his weapon. Before that point, Picard had gone to the holodeck and killed 2 drones with a hologram of a tommy gun to get a subprocessor from one and hooked it into his tricorder to learn what it knew.

Now, the holodeck had never been used as a weapon that way before. Off hand, the next person that tried to use a holodeck as a weapon was Seska. So, does that mean that in a versus match up...before First Contact was made...would using the holodeck to make a tommy gun and shoot drones up be an 'illegal' use of trek tech? This was a tactical change that used their own technology. It was a pre-existing thing that was changed to have a certain effect.

That is what is the next step after technological and tactical analysis. Offering a scenario. MacGuyvering happens pretty much 9 times out of 10 every episode. And taking 2 pieces of technology and putting them together is not giving them a new piece of technology. What it is is a tactic that is seen more than once. B'Elanna combined several different things including a phaser, and made a force field generator out of it. Worf took his comm badge and some 19th century stuff to make a personal force field.

Their technology is designed to be adaptable and they use that nature every chance they can. To ignore such an integral aspect of their technology does a disservice to the technology and you are not being true to the capabilities of the technology. I have said that both sides can adapt their technology. It's just that how it's to be modified and who is doing the modifying is what determines how long it takes. I wouldn't object to the Culture taking a grid fire 'activator' and displacing it to a remote location and setting it off. I wouldn't object to a personality backup 'hard drive' connected to an effector and have it displaced to someone, have their mind downloaded and the original have their brain rewritten to try to kill someone, so that they'd get killed themselves. Or link a CAM to a holoprojector for a more focused application of the energy.

Is any of this 'new tech'? No.

But, I've also said that neither side can use the other's technology or it'd be one side versus that same side and that goes against the idea of a versus debate.
Mainly because we have ample canon evidence they don't actually have the combat device he has thought up. I'll conceed they have shown some ability to phase themselves (not that their ships actually have phase-cloaks on board) but they have never, ever shown temporally phased weapons. Ever.

Not even when the very Federation depended on it. They never even suggested using weapons of that kind. Not in FC when they fought their -and I quote- "Most lethal enemy". Not in Nemesis when everything else they did failed. Not in any of the other series or movies either.
There is no reason to assume that they are incapable of it when I have shown repeatedly that they are capable of creating such a device. Why it hasn't shown up yet in the canon is an unknown. But, you are insistent on filling in that unknown with what you want, instead of even trying to find a canon reason.
Point being they don't have the weapon now. They'd have to figure it out first. Which is, as GStone so kindly reminded me, not something allowed in a VS debate - in a VS debate you take the factions as they are and don't add stuff.
I did no such thing. See my first reply in this post.
OmniBack wrote:Anyone here who is actually arguing in favor of Star Trek, is doesn't know enough about the Culture... its a bad joke.
And if we take that logic to its fullest expression, to all other kinds of debates, that means that most people in Trek-Wars debate are all participating in a great 'bad joke'. Then, go over what I posted about herzeleid's reponses on the description of the Culture. They are a big part of what I know (keep in mind, it isn't my only source) and tell me just what of it is wrong. It has been entirely consistent with everything else I've seen online, what I read myself and none of it has ever been contradicted.

Roondar
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Post by Roondar » Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:55 am

GStone wrote:
Roondar wrote:One thing of note:

If VS debate rules state you can't use technology not in your possesion at the time of the 'VS' then the Federation can't use the idea GStone posted.
Yes, each side does have the technology and tactics and knowledge it has at the point in space and time when the match up is assigned, but versus debates go further. Many people just look at weapon stats, engines speeds and the like and make a decision that way. But, versus debates truly do go further, if one chooses.

If one does, the last step is to state how each side can or could act and react to what happens from the opposing side. In Trek in universe battles, one example would be randomizing phaser emission frequencies when fighting the borg for as long as possible. In First Contact, after they went as far as they could, Picard told them to do what they could, even if it meant fighting hand-to-hand. Then, he goes to the observation room to work on the weapon he had, using the knowledge he had of the borg. What exactly he was trying to do, we don't know, but he was trying to change his weapon. Before that point, Picard had gone to the holodeck and killed 2 drones with a hologram of a tommy gun to get a subprocessor from one and hooked it into his tricorder to learn what it knew.

Now, the holodeck had never been used as a weapon that way before. Off hand, the next person that tried to use a holodeck as a weapon was Seska. So, does that mean that in a versus match up...before First Contact was made...would using the holodeck to make a tommy gun and shoot drones up be an 'illegal' use of trek tech? This was a tactical change that used their own technology. It was a pre-existing thing that was changed to have a certain effect.

That is what is the next step after technological and tactical analysis. Offering a scenario. MacGuyvering happens pretty much 9 times out of 10 every episode. And taking 2 pieces of technology and putting them together is not giving them a new piece of technology. What it is is a tactic that is seen more than once. B'Elanna combined several different things including a phaser, and made a force field generator out of it. Worf took his comm badge and some 19th century stuff to make a personal force field.

Their technology is designed to be adaptable and they use that nature every chance they can. To ignore such an integral aspect of their technology does a disservice to the technology and you are not being true to the capabilities of the technology. I have said that both sides can adapt their technology. It's just that how it's to be modified and who is doing the modifying is what determines how long it takes. I wouldn't object to the Culture taking a grid fire 'activator' and displacing it to a remote location and setting it off. I wouldn't object to a personality backup 'hard drive' connected to an effector and have it displaced to someone, have their mind downloaded and the original have their brain rewritten to try to kill someone, so that they'd get killed themselves. Or link a CAM to a holoprojector for a more focused application of the energy.

Is any of this 'new tech'? No.

But, I've also said that neither side can use the other's technology or it'd be one side versus that same side and that goes against the idea of a versus debate.
Indeed, none of what you showed there is new tech. And contrary to your actual suggestions, pretty much all of it is shown on screen/in print. Temporally Phased Gravitic bombs fired from a ship hiding in fluidic space (or some other space, to complete your idea) back into normal space however are never shown. Nor are Temporally Phased weapons.

See, the point here is that you are guessing that a temporally phased weapon fired in such a way is feasable. You have no canon evidence that a temporally phase cloaked object can even be used to do anything offensive.
Mainly because we have ample canon evidence they don't actually have the combat device he has thought up. I'll conceed they have shown some ability to phase themselves (not that their ships actually have phase-cloaks on board) but they have never, ever shown temporally phased weapons. Ever.

Not even when the very Federation depended on it. They never even suggested using weapons of that kind. Not in FC when they fought their -and I quote- "Most lethal enemy". Not in Nemesis when everything else they did failed. Not in any of the other series or movies either.
There is no reason to assume that they are incapable of it when I have shown repeatedly that they are capable of creating such a device. Why it hasn't shown up yet in the canon is an unknown. But, you are insistent on filling in that unknown with what you want, instead of even trying to find a canon reason.
There is ample reason: they never did it when it would save their skins and the only remotely comparable weapon shows up in Voyager as a future technology of awesome powers invented some twenty or thirty years in the future.

In fact, you have not actually shown they can make this work. You've only showns they have the technology to do the most of the individual parts of your trick. And not even managed to show they have the technology to do it on the actual devices you intend to use.

For comparisom, the base technology components (i.e. the parts) used in the first computer ever built where thought up years, decades and in some instances even centuries prior to the actual building of the first working computer. Not only that, but the idea of a computer was not theoretical at the point they started designing one: they knew exactly what they wanted and even though they had all the parts and all the technologies required it still took us years to make the real thing.

This is no different: Yes, the Federation has shown the parts needed. No, the Federation has not shown they can just integrate all the parts into the whole. You gloss over that issue as if it's the same damn thing as Worf's communicator badge trick or Belana's forcefields. Refusing to accept that there is quite a difference between building something you've allready seen in use before and something you yet have to figure out.

And until you provide compelling evidence based on canon that they can integrate these specific technologies your idea is not even worth discussing - you are handwaving all opposition away with "but they know how to build the parts and I think that means they surely must be able to integrate it into a whole". And as evidence for that you point out that Startrek episodes have shown the Federation to be adaptable and capable of emulating/integrating existing technologies after a fashion when they spot them.

Never mind that in a much larger amount of Startrek episodes a point is made of how this kind of McGuyvering often goes wrong, has undesired side effects or just plainly fails to work. To add insult to injury, a sizable percentage of the 'failed McGuyverisms' are shown by the very people you assume show off so well that they can just integrate whatever the hell they like.

And all of this is just about your counter tactic and your seriously skewed idea of how the Culture would fight this war. They won't hang about in realspace begging to be destroyed if your device works. They won't even hang in realspace very long: pop out, blow stuff up, pop back into hyperspace, move to the next target.

Or how about: when have they 'won'?

In your eyes if even a single ship manages to escape to phasic/fluidic space the Federation has not lost. Never mind the trillions of men/women and children that died or the fact that the Federation has no more planets, starbases or other installations. Or the fact that even in your own best-case scenario most of the Federation fleet will be gone as well.

Point being they don't have the weapon now. They'd have to figure it out first. Which is, as GStone so kindly reminded me, not something allowed in a VS debate - in a VS debate you take the factions as they are and don't add stuff.
I did no such thing. See my first reply in this post.
I stand corrected, but you did disallow either side to use the others physics which means that ships in Hyperspace become untouchable as Startrek physics does not know Hyperspace. Funny enough warpships have no such protection as it's often shown realspace effects warpships just fine.

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Post by Narsil » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:40 pm

They won't even hang in realspace very long: pop out, blow stuff up, pop back into hyperspace, move to the next target.
They can actually affect realspace from hyperspace and vice versa, so it isn't a pop in and pop out again thing. For one example; the Culture Minds, regardless of the rest of the ship, are always active in a minor hyperspace dimension due to the faster available processing speed.

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Post by GStone » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:44 pm

Roondar wrote:Indeed, none of what you showed there is new tech. And contrary to your actual suggestions, pretty much all of it is shown on screen/in print. Temporally Phased Gravitic bombs fired from a ship hiding in fluidic space (or some other space, to complete your idea) back into normal space however are never shown. Nor are Temporally Phased weapons.
My suggestion is similar to Time's Arrow. Replace Data on a planet with someone in a ship (a ship that's either in normal space or traveling through normal space at warp/sublight speeds), replace the comm badge with the bomb and replace the comm signal with the energy from the gravitational bomb. Now, in subspace communications, there does involve space-time distortions via subspace energy emissions, which do involve gravitational energy. When Data sent his comm signal to be in phase with the rest of the away team, there is no reason to think this didn't include the gravitational energy sent as part of standard subspace communications/messages.
See, the point here is that you are guessing that a temporally phased weapon fired in such a way is feasable. You have no canon evidence that a temporally phase cloaked object can even be used to do anything offensive.
It's an educated guess based on very specific evidence. The energy used in both subspace communications (the canon example) and the gravitational gridfire (my proposal) is gravitaional energy. It is a logical conclusion of the possibility.
In fact, you have not actually shown they can make this work. You've only showns they have the technology to do the most of the individual parts of your trick. And not even managed to show they have the technology to do it on the actual devices you intend to use.
They weren't gonna be doing it on the devices themselves, but the energy that's emitted from them. That is what was required of Data with his comm signal.
For comparisom, the base technology components (i.e. the parts) used in the first computer ever built where thought up years, decades and in some instances even centuries prior to the actual building of the first working computer. Not only that, but the idea of a computer was not theoretical at the point they started designing one: they knew exactly what they wanted and even though they had all the parts and all the technologies required it still took us years to make the real thing.
Which is all fine and dandy, but we must also remmeber that we are talking about 2 points in history with vastly different technological norms present.
This is no different: Yes, the Federation has shown the parts needed. No, the Federation has not shown they can just integrate all the parts into the whole.
Of course, I have. What's required?

1) Gravitational energy and a device that gonna produce it
2) the power cell/plant/fuel of the gravitational energy producer
3) the subspace field generator to cause the temporal phase shift
4) the power source for the subspace field generator
5) and the phase discriminator required to be sure you're making the right phase shift.

So, what's the integrated whole? Data's comm badge, along with the subspace field generator and a phase discrimnator. We saw it in the canon.
You gloss over that issue as if it's the same damn thing as Worf's communicator badge trick or Belana's forcefields. Refusing to accept that there is quite a difference between building something you've allready seen in use before and something you yet have to figure out.
I brought Worf and B'Elanna up, as examples of how Federation technology is adaptable.
And until you provide compelling evidence based on canon that they can integrate these specific technologies your idea is not even worth discussing - you are handwaving all opposition away with "but they know how to build the parts and I think that means they surely must be able to integrate it into a whole". And as evidence for that you point out that Startrek episodes have shown the Federation to be adaptable and capable of emulating/integrating existing technologies after a fashion when they spot them.
Replace part A with part B; replace location C with location D. What you want to do is limit the debate to just what is on screen and only on screen. That is a truncated version of a versus debate and one that is not specified to in the opening post of this thread.
Never mind that in a much larger amount of Startrek episodes a point is made of how this kind of McGuyvering often goes wrong, has undesired side effects or just plainly fails to work.
My proposal does follow a 'simple is better' philosophy. There isn't that many places it could go wrong. Either the generator/warhead doesn't work or the phase shifting, subspace field doesn't phase shift. And even then, those 2 parts are not that complicated of devices.
To add insult to injury, a sizable percentage of the 'failed McGuyverisms' are shown by the very people you assume show off so well that they can just integrate whatever the hell they like.
It's not like they're trying to build a warship out of a box of toothpicks and yellow snow.
And all of this is just about your counter tactic and your seriously skewed idea of how the Culture would fight this war. They won't hang about in realspace begging to be destroyed if your device works.
How many times do I have to say it? So, I'll bold it and increase the size beyond normal text. This is not me shouting, but the apparent need to make it very very visible:

I am not counting on the Culture ships or drones or anything else from them to just hang around in normal space, doing nothing.

I am counting on them moving around and not staying in one place.


Can we, at least, move beyond this point, please? Even if you don't agree with my proposal, let's get beyond this, okay?
They won't even hang in realspace very long: pop out, blow stuff up, pop back into hyperspace, move to the next target.

Or how about: when have they 'won'?

In your eyes if even a single ship manages to escape to phasic/fluidic space the Federation has not lost. Never mind the trillions of men/women and children that died or the fact that the Federation has no more planets, starbases or other installations. Or the fact that even in your own best-case scenario most of the Federation fleet will be gone as well.
"When the Borg destroyed my world, my people scattered throughout the universe. But we survived. And so will humanity. As long as there is a handful left to keep the spirit alive. You will prevail. Even if it takes a millennium."
I stand corrected, but you did disallow either side to use the others physics which means that ships in Hyperspace become untouchable as Startrek physics does not know Hyperspace.
Except, the phase variances of older-younger universes reads an awfully lot like the relationship between different manifolds in relation to real space and subspace. The reality of the solanagen based life forms in Schisms is a place where there is a different 'sub-reality' to the main star trek universe, which is called 'real space'. In Parallels, we find that there other universes of the 'many worlds' variety, which is different from the subspace manifolds talked of in Schisms.

That means there is a very strong possibility that the Federation could scan into hyperspace. Even if they couldn't do it entirely on their own, there are the spatial fissures that allow transition of ships and things from normal space to hyperspace and back again. These opening would allow for a scan of hyperspace for the time they are left open, regardless if they are for going into or leaving hyperspace.

And even if they don't get 'Culture hyperspace physics', they can still understand things, like an object coming through a spatial fissure. They did so when the 'spirits of good fortune' came from wherever they came from via their fissures.
Funny enough warpships have no such protection as it's often shown realspace effects warpships just fine.
That's because there is a stronger interaction for Trek ships with real space than it is for Culture ships.

Clear Air Turbulence
Candidate
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:11 pm

Post by Clear Air Turbulence » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:56 pm

Hey everyone, hope this isn't a bad necro or anything, but reading through this kinda made me want to register. First off, topic is truely harsh, the Sleeper could squish the 40K universe nevermind star trek or star wars. Secondly, it would be fast, and the convoluted plan GStone came up with simply wouldn't have time to be put in place. No star trek (or wars, or almost any other mainstream scifi) ship can even touch the culture ships, it's not that they are really tough, just that they react (and dodge, and attack/counterattack) so fast, in microseconds at least.
Nothing in trek can manage to hit them, ignoring the fact that they are outranged as well. The culture are a little out of the league of even the borg.

GStone
Starship Captain
Posts: 1016
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:16 am
Location: Undercover in Culture space

Post by GStone » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:34 am

This is a small enough board that it really isn't a problem. And welcome.

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