|The Culture versus the UFP & Allies
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|Author:||Narsil [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:35 pm ]|
|Post subject:||The Culture versus the UFP & Allies|
All right then. In the middle of Federation space, a wormhole opens and drops out the Culture vessel known as the GSV Sleeper Service, from the novel Excession by Iain M. Banks. It is fully operational, and has its full complement of smaller remote vessels, each one fully armed and operational. The wormhole closes afterwards, and the Sleeper Service is given the no-choice duty of eliminating or neutralising every last one of the major spacefaring powers of both the alpha and beta quadrants.
Said powers must survive the assault from the Sleeper Service by any means necessary, though they aren't given prior warning.
|Author:||GStone [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:18 pm ]|
You have failed to state when in Trek history the scenario takes place in.
|Author:||Narsil [ Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:23 pm ]|
The Trek powers have all of the resources they built up for the Dominion War and the Borg as of the actual Dominion War, but without the losses or the actual war distracting them.
|Author:||OmniBack [ Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:44 am ]|
All A/B powers go back to the stone age.
|Author:||GStone [ Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:48 pm ]|
I'm wondering why you keep bringing this match up.
|Author:||Cpl Kendall [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:27 am ]|
This is such a curbstomp it's not even funny. This is a thousand times worse than the Imperium of Man VS the Alpha and Beta Quadrant.
|Author:||Narsil [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:49 am ]|
Basically, GStone, to see if you've learned enough about the Culture's overall power to admit that the Federation and its Allies have no chance whatsoever against the Culture, unlike last time when you made all of the fun transphasic torpedo claims and those claims about Federation phase cloak technologies.
I'd actually say it's worse than than a thousandfold IoM, but that's just me. Hell, the word 'curbstomp' doesn't accurately describe this debate, though I'm wondering whether or not GStone actually agrees.
|Author:||GStone [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:41 pm ]|
On the last board, there was a poster that provided more information on their culture, tactics and weapons technology than you have ever done. All you did was point to a few examples of technology and declared victory. You also were unwilling to accept the standard rules of a vs scenario and what it means, so you made more vs threads on the subject with tighter and tighter constraints placed on the Federation. If it really was such a curbstomp, you wouldn't need the added provisions that would restrict the Feds.
I even, after a lengthy investigation of the Culture universe, created a scenario that can happen. But, you still insist that I just accept massive firepower and just bend over a barrel without question.
To remain consistent with the known Fed/Trek future history, I can say they used the parallel universe travel mechanics (VOY: Scorpion II) to go to either fluidic space or somewhere else (take your pick) and they sent in temporally phased (TNG: Time's Arrow) bombs of 'gravitic gridfire', which you remember I came up with myself. Gravity is a big weakness for Culture defense tech. All done from the safety of an other universe, once again, ensuring the Trek history does pan out like we have seen it happen. I don't even need transphasic torpedoes to beat the Culture.
The transphasic torps were just really really fun to work with.
Now, as far as your new version, I haven't really thought much on it because I've been busy. I'd need more time to come up with something. Though, my initial thoughts would be a variation of what happened in Time's Arrow, but instead of just Data, a whole ship is phased temporally. The gravitic gridfire bombs are launched and exploded out of phase with time and the energy is brought into phase, per the standard operations of the gravitational gridfire.
Now, if you were to create another thread where it's the Culture vs Feds/Trek during TOS or ENT, I'd need more time to study them because I'm less familiar with those series than the other 3. But, if I were to find a way to win, what's next: The Culture vs the British Empire? The Roman Empire? How about The Culture vs Cro-mag man? How about The Culture vs Mother Nature or Father Time? Or The Culture vs The Big Bang?
I'm no quitter. It's not open and shut, but I continue to show that it isn't as hopeless as a lot of people say.
|Author:||Narsil [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:58 pm ]|
All right then, I've got to point out that Culture reaction times are all very much extremely fast. How the hell do you plan for this to actually work when Federation forces need several seconds to react when it's quite clear that the power of the Sleeper Service alone is enough to destroy the Federation dozens of times over due to its 90,000+ remote droneships which can all destroy a planet with their engines.
And the Culture's own hyperspace making them completely immune to anything going on in realspace - to the point where they always choose to fight while they're in hyperspace - is enough to make them rather hard to attack from the point of view of a gravity bomb in realspace. It's certainly possible, but these are beings which view Black Holes as abstract problems rather than actual threats. They could just effectorise the bomb into uselessness the second they detect it.
The thing is, GStone, it is hopeless. The Federation has no chance at all at of beating the Culture, and it shows how utterly rabid your love of that failing sci-fi show is that you feel a need to show that 'all hope is not lost' by wanking to some implausible type of magic technobabble solution.
|Author:||GStone [ Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:34 pm ]|
I've dealt with this before. You act like every damn square inch of Fed space will be vaporized in under a second. Not realistic. Pure fanwank and just crazy.
They're all showing up at one spot and spreading out from there. I can choose any place a good deal distance away.
They aren't always in hyperspace.
But, they're stupid enough to leave such a gaping weakness in their defenses. It's akin to a shaft leading directly to the main reactor on a giant space station.
The Culture has never shown the capability or the potential capability to manipulate something that is temporally out of synch the same way Data was out of synch. Also, it isn't the bomb itself that moves into temporal synch and explodes. It explodes while it is temporally out of synch and the energy is shifted into temporal synch, just like Data's comm message was moved temporally into synchronicity with what was outside the make shift field. His comm badge didn't move into temporal synch and relayed the message.
The thing is, Narsil, you continue to refuse to accept reality.
It's not my fault I posted a way around the set parameter you laid out. Again. No 'magic tech', no time travel, no survival by external power or deux ex machina.
|Author:||Narsil [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:42 am ]|
All right then, let's calculate how much it does take, given known speeds and ranges of Culture vessels. The Federation occupies an area of space that is described as 8000 light-years, right? A Culture vessel's usually very powerful weapon range is measured in hundreds of lightyears, about 500-600, and it can unleash all of its weapons in less than a microsecond - well, most of their battles in which hundreds of ships are destroyed are often over in microseconds.
Now, the Federation does not know that the Sleeper Service is there yet, this is just a rather nasty assumption you made. What goes on, is that the first strike consists of a few thousand remote drones, launched from hyperspace, which are all sent out in the direction of every Federation system, all the while staying inside hyperspace to remain undetectable. They then use their effectors to cause all of the relevant stars to just go supernova, then the rest of the ships - one for every Federation vessel, which they can more than match - open fire within the next microsecond and vapourise every last one with CAM-based weaponry and the very occasional displaced black hole, all of which can destroy planets.
The organisation of such an event takes a few months, but the event of the Federation's actual death is well and truly done within less than a second, using canonical power levels. This is how utterly devastating the Culture is in comparison to the Federation, thousands of times worse and thousands upon thousands of times more powerful.
Aye, and you're going to notice them immediately, are you? Especially since the Sleeper Service rarely left hyperspace for the duration of the novel Excession, and probably won't here.
Sleeper Service was, actually, it spent the vast majority of the novel in hyperspace with only one or two exceptions that I can't actually think of.
Erm... no, the gravitic weakness is not so much a weakness as much as a 'there's a concievable one-in-a-million-chance-that-it-could-affect-us' sort of situation. They're always dealing with people on the same or similar level that they are, and the majority of their defences are actually fields, which can sort of get rid of gravity's effects. Plus, they're not confined by the speed of light and gravity is.
But they'll detect the rather slight shift in gravity, and they'll dodge hours before it reaches them. And that's assuming the above strategy I proposed doesn't work and someone of Data's intelligence survives the original strike, which he very probably won't.
Interesting terminology when talking about two things that don't actually exist in real life. The thing is, GStone, you're obsessed to infinite degrees with Star Trek to the point of inventing wanky solutions which just don't work. To defeat the Culture, you would need something extremely fast with which to come up with these ideas.
Erm, that temporal phasing and all that is magic tech and falls under the temporal manipulations for time travel, it sort of does invoke an external entity in fluidic space and then also happens to be have been a deus ex machina Data-ism that was never seen nor heard of again.
If the Federation had any capacity to defeat the Culture in the method you described, they would have utterly annihilated the Borg in a similar fashion because of such a big threat. Therefore you're just wanking and have yet to come up with any actual reason that the Federation would survive the opening strike I described, which is well within the eccentric and sometimes amoral Sleeper Service's sort of modus operandi.
|Author:||Mr. Oragahn [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:36 pm ]|
So basically, Narsil, you just opened a completely curbstomp style thread... just for the fun of pissing off the Trekkies of this site, right?
What is the point?
|Author:||GStone [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:29 pm ]|
Show me where Culture ships can release their weapons in a spherical path. Also, doing so would also hit their own ships. Not a good idead.
Oh, brother. They're given no warning beforehand, but they do have the ability to detect the creation/closure of wormholes.
Except the nature of the older/younger universe relationship is a phase variance of the same reality. The Federation has show the ability to scan phase variances in a singular reality. One instance was those 'spirits of good fortune' making passageways into their reality and Voyager's scanners picking up what the energy was and counteracting the opening when they appeared.
Uh huh. So, we've gone from using their weapons directly, to doing it indirectly. Fine.
The explosions of stars are limited to far less than c. Wen the star in Generations exploded, the shockwave was almost right on top of the E-D and it easily escaped. Anything with an impulse drive of substantial speed can outrun the wave from a supernova. CAMs use wormholes, which the Federation has detected many many times. There have been both temporal and spatial distortions that have been detected on their own. Plus, wormhole usage is dependent upon size. I've ever heard of The Culture moving the entry/exit points of wormholes after the wormhole has been established. And if they were to tranport a black hole, the transporting wormhole would need to be of an appreciable size, so the black hole doesn't burn itself out almost immediately. That wormhole is gonna be huge, too. With FTL sensors, they detect a black hole is coming through and what has propulsion leaves the area, while those not on them are trying to get aboard something to get away. Voyager did a mass transport of an entire klingon crew at a single time to save their lives. It bypassed security protocols, but it was do-able.
Your continued insistence of not factoring in the other side is typical.
Oh, god. You're deliberately making this too easy, aren't you? You said they're showing up in the middle of Federation space. This isn't the fringes of Federation space. There are sensors everywhere, and along with FTL sensors, yes. Yes, they are gonna pick up the wormhole that allows them to get to Federation space.
So, I'm right. They aren't always in hyperspace. Besides, the Federation has often detected phase variances of a single universe before.
What's stupid is how they classified what they're gonna protect against. Force v Energy. Trapdoors work against energy. Gravity is classified as a force. It's stupidity. And after the Culture-Idiran war, you'd think they'd have changed that, in case someone else they came upon was using gravitic weapons. That would be forward thinking.
That didn't really help during the Culture-Idiran war, remember? They might have won, but it wasn't because of fields getting rid of an appreciable amount of gravitational energy.
They can't dodge when the energy is showing up on the inside of their ships and stations.
Data has nothing to do with this.
As if. We know full well that it is a fact that these 2 cultures are fiction. Your manufactured 'interesting situation' is grandstanding.
The only thing I'm obsessed with is logic and it's judicial application. Don't blame me when you keep wanting to ignore evidence. It also isn't my fault that Trek has shown the technology of the Federation to be so versatile. Blame them, not me.
You don't need an exhaustive analysis to have this particular inspiration. If all you're expecting Federation people, particularly scientists, to do is think of using the ways that have been used in the past, the Federation would have never gotten to where they are today.
Ha!! I could say the same thing about warp drive because of its temporal manipulations of circumventing the relativistic effects by surrounding shit in warp fields, which are subspace fields. And a subspace field is what was used to temporally phase Data. That isn't magic tech. That's applied science.
Fluidic space itself is not an external entity. It's physical space.
What you're calling 'deus ex machina Data-ism' is applied science.
Regardless, the technology exists, whether they choose to use it or not. The borg are not the issue. By that logic, there shouldn't be any photon torpedoes anymore, but they're still around.
See above where I said unloading all weapons in a spherical pattern would hit their own ships, as well as where I reminded you that you said they were appearing in the middle of the Federation.
|Author:||Narsil [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:01 pm ]|
The Culture weapons are not intended to be released in a spherical path; we're talking an alpha-strike, not a spherical wave. Basically, concentrated firepower on single vessels. The Culture has more than enough ships with which to perform that strategy.
Of which they shall detect nothing else due to the Sleeper Service being in Hyperspace. Until such a time that they're all being turned into loosely scattered atoms.
Prove that anything, anything in the Federation can react fast enough to a strike from a ship that remains in hyperspace, and would also deduct that the things that are in hyperspace are actually ships and not some other unexplained phenomena. Not to mention that the Culture also has superior-enough sensors as to be able to record detailed events from across whole sectors without too much application of power, so they'll be ready for whatever the Federation has planned.
It's just part of a strategy.
Colonies, starbases and planets can't.
They also happen to be there and over with again within nanoseconds. The Federation hasn't got that sort of reaction time to be able to do anything about it. All they'll get is the ghost of a blip and then bang as shitloads of collapsed antimatter is shoved in their faces.
Living beings have been displaced from one FTL moving ship to another during the events of Excession. You have no point here.
They won't have time to react since the vessels are crewed by humans with human reaction speeds, see all of my examples above; there is no way for the Federation to survive this.
And the Sleeper Service displaced tens of thousands of people faster than the USS Voyager did. You're dealing with a situation of 'anything the Feds can do the Culture can do better'.
Your continued insistence of completely ignoring what the Culture is actually capable of is mindboggling.
And all they'll detect is the wormhole. Nothing else that indicates a ship, and they have nothing that can react in time.
Hyperspace is a completely different dimension, not a phase variance.
Forcefields, which the Culture has in abundance, protect against force, funnily enough how you tend to forget that little tidbit.
They were dealing with a foe that had generally equal technology and basic battle computers that can react fast enough to compete with Culture ships. The Idirans themselves would steamroll the Federation without so much as a yawn.
They can't pull off this insane plan if they don't survive to start doing it.
There's no one else in the Federation smart enough to pull off this plan within the very small preparation time required. And if there's only one or two ships left, there isn't much of a Federation left, to be honest.
You're the one who used the word 'reality'.
I don't blame you for the technology of Trek, I blame you for coming up with something that I've shown will not work.
Yes, can they do it in microseconds?
Applied science that won't ever happen. And is also pseudoscientific garbage from Trek writers.
Physical space that can't actually be reached.
See two statements above.
Thank you for proving how utterly backwards and stupid the Federation actually is. You've just proved that they can't pull off your stupid scenario because they are't smart enough. Not that it matters, they'll be completely annihilated before they get to that point.
I never once said spherical pattern, I said alpha-strike. You're putting words in my mouth. I've also clarified why the Federation won't be making any movements towards warfare of that level any time soon, and also given valid reasons for why the Federation won't prepare for war just because of some silly phase variances.
I'll accept your concession as you leave.
|Author:||GStone [ Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:06 pm ]|
And my point was that they aren't built to fire is spherical paths. You did drop them off in the center of Fed space. Fed space does have 3 dimensions to it.
I have shown they can detect things in other phase variances. Moving on.
Neither of which are required.
Oh, god. And you accuse me of being fanwanked. Moving on.
You're coming up with strategies now? Before, all you cared about was who had the better tech and was saying to hell with strategies.
You are continuing to show that you are the one that's fanwanked. Moving on.
Total lie, but not surprising. There were a couple points. The first point is that for anything ball busting to come through a wormhole, it'll be far in excess of what the minimum level of detection is for Fed sensors. We aren't talking about a micro-wormhole to transport a galaxy munching black hole.
The second point is that things with propulsion will actually mooooooove.
You know full well humans are not the only species on Fed ships. Moving on.
Also not the issue. My mention of that was for saying what people on planets and stations without propulsion units would be attempting to do when they realized they needed to get out of there. Pay more attention. Moving on.
What's mindboggling to you is that I'm not so willing to bend over a barrel and spread 'em as easily and quickly as you are when it comes to this particular scenario. Get over it. Moving on.
Blatant ignoring of times when Fed sensors can detect things that have a phase variance. Moving on.
I repost what I said before:
"Trek parallel realities work off of variances of resonance phase frequencies. The Culture'verse has a series of older/younger universes, which would all correspond to 1, or at least 1 small grouping of resonance phase frequencies. This view helps us to understand the relationship of what is going on with what we, especially me, are talking about."
Yes, the same fields that still let the Culture ships get beat like a ho by her pimp.
Computer reactions are irrelevent when it comes to trapdoors and gravitational energy. It just won't work. And the fields don't help. The gravitational energy still gets by.
I have shown they can. Moving on.
Then, they should have moved him to R&D, but they didn't. Data isn't the only smart person in the Federation. There are many examples of just as equally ingenious or better MacGuyvering being done.
But then, there really were no technological breakthroughs in the Federation before Data came around. [shakes head] Moving on.
And all you're doing is trying to create a conflict where there isn't one to score appearance points. It's very sad. Moving on.
I yawn at this statement. You've just fanwanked and dismissed evidence. Moving on.
You have no idea what actually happens in the brain, do you?
I don't care if you don't like it. Moving on.
Right...because the borg, the entire crew of Voyager and many members of Species 8472 all had hallucinations. Moving on.
I saw them and they're garbage. Moving on.
Your automatic assumption of stupidity is without evidence. That is backwards thinking. Moving on.
If you're plopped in the middle of Federation space, to reach all corners of it would require energy going in a 360 degree wave horizontally, vertically and at all angles. That's a sphere.
No, you didn't. All you said is that they can't. That isn't evidence. Moving on and I'm suggesting you crack open a dictionary.
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