Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

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Lucky
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Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Lucky » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:20 am

What it says on the tin
The Subelectron Amplifier
VS
A Stargate ZPM
A Stargate Naquadh Generator
A Stargate Eyes of the Goa'ld
A Stargate Meutrino-Ion Generator
A Stargate Subspace Capacitor
A Stargate Ancient Crystal Power Cell
Et cetera



Here is all the fluff on the Subelectron Amplifier
Franchise: Disney Series: Tale Spin Season: 1 Episode: 2 Title: Plunder & Lightning, Part 2 wrote: Shere Khan: Yes. That stone, as you call it is an electrical alloy developed by my scientists.
Franchise: Disney Series: Tale Spin Season: 1 Episode: 3 Title: Plunder & Lightning, Part 3 wrote: Doctor: Ahem. The stone is actually a sub-electron amplifier which means it can create unlimited amounts of electricity. Enough to run all of Mr.Khan's businesses, but we were only able to create one stone...
Franchise: Disney Series: Tale Spin Season: 1 Episode: 4 Title: Plunder & Lightning, Part 4 wrote: Doctor: I've been studying what the pirates stole from you over the last week.

Shere Khan: The point Doctor?

Doctor: Well, it's possible they have built a machine that can focus the energy of the stone.

Shere Khan: And?

Doctor: Well, basically, Don Karnage could now have in his possession, a lightning gun.
So how does this little stone compare to

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:08 pm

Hard to say when the data is so limited. What is the fiction that features this amplifier thingy?

A ZPM is pretty much the top of power sources in Stargate. At least stable ones.
Not just because of its power because the Asgards literally had enough power to blow Orilla up Death Star style, but simply because a ZPM is extremely small.
In "our" age, they're just as insanely powerful as they are rare.
On the side of unstable ideas, you have something like tapping a naqahdria planet with such intensity that it triggered a chain reaction and blew it up. The idea was to reach Destiny, which was flying far, far away.
It was done a second time when some renegades of dubious origin tried to take control of the ship.
In SGA, humans managed to build a sort of perpetual ZPM by dumping the exotic particles in some alt-universe which they had considered had no life... which was just all too wrong. Anyway, SGA hardly is a show you'd watch if you cared a little bit about ethics. The whole show was just totally nuts on that front.

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:29 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Hard to say when the data is so limited. What is the fiction that features this amplifier thingy?
The dialog is the most reliable source do to cartoon physics being in play when it comes to the lightning gun damaging things often, and the fact that the air pirates never had a reason to just make the biggest boom they could.

The bombardment of the city states at about 4:43

Thios site: http://www.animationsource.org/tssourcepage/tech2.htm seems to have some of the best screen caps I can find.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:A ZPM is pretty much the top of power sources in Stargate. At least stable ones.
Not just because of its power because the Asgards literally had enough power to blow Orilla up Death Star style, but simply because a ZPM is extremely small.
In "our" age, they're just as insanely powerful as they are rare.
On the side of unstable ideas, you have something like tapping a naqahdria planet with such intensity that it triggered a chain reaction and blew it up. The idea was to reach Destiny, which was flying far, far away.

It was done a second time when some renegades of dubious origin tried to take control of the ship.

In SGA, humans managed to build a sort of perpetual ZPM by dumping the exotic particles in some alt-universe which they had considered had no life... which was just all too wrong. Anyway, SGA hardly is a show you'd watch if you cared a little bit about ethics. The whole show was just totally nuts on that front.
I'm more interested in what the stone is comparable to rather then what is better. I rather thought that a ZPM was better seeing as the capabilities are more plot dependent then anything else, but it more up in the air about other things.

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:17 pm

Based on the damage on natural elements or rather simplistic constructs, you're sitting with something between a Death Glider's staff cannon and sometimes a bit above, based on the destruction of the bridge's central section (although a former bridge wasn't damaged at all previously). But we also have higher end cases for DGs:

Image Image

Staff cannons use liquid naquadah, which seems to be a diluted, extremely stable and low power version of the normal fuel, but that's conjecture (although the low power part is rather relying on solid grounds when compared to other nq based systems).

Be weary of the SG wikia, it uses several sources which never were canonical.

The lightning displayed an odd NDF effect once on the thiner and lighter parts of a plane, including the hull (bulkframe was spared), and is literally powerless against... rubber, only able to move the hit object backwards.
The Subelectron Amplifier's main interest would stand in its ability to never be depleted, according to the writings.

Oh and it does make a very impressive bomb though. Perhaps a total of several low terajoules of energy alone to move all that much water and create such a tidal wave.

Going for jewels, you can look at something like the Eyes in Stargate, like the Eye of Ra:
DANIEL
Jack, Abydos is in trouble. Anubis is on his way. He's after the Eye of Ra. I have that replica Catherine gave me, it looks like this.

DANIEL
Now, I'm pretty sure the real one is located in some secret chamber in Ra's pyramid on Abydos but I'm not sure where exactly. According to legend there were six Eyes including those held by Apophis, Osiris and Tiamat among others. Each is powerful on its own but to use them in combination increases that power ten fold. Recently, Anubis has managed to track down five of the six Eyes and only needs Ra's to complete the set. He's looked everywhere Ra used to hang out except Abydos; now he's on his way there.
Whether it's each Eye or the combination that gets multiplied by ten doesn't make a difference. See: (Eye x10) x6, or (Eye x6) x10.
It's hard to gauge the final power since the weapon was rather exotic but that would be massively absurd of Daniel to make such a big fuss about those eyes if they weren't at least more powerful than, say, a naqahdah bomb.
When you see that a lump of raw (read: non purified, non weaponized) naqahdah pushed a regular high KT nuclear weapon into a gigaton nightmare...

Image

Abydos was said to be gone, Anubis threatened to destroy Abydos, and Abydos was the name of the planet.
At the end of season 6, Anubis really had seized a lot of power from other System Lords and was wrecking havoc. The idea that he wouldn't have access to naqahdah to weaponize is beyond retarded.

Working this backwards, and knowing that the Eyes weren't destroyed in the process of feeding the main weapon system on Anubis' mothership, we get something that really makes an Eye some kind of mini ZPM.

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Lucky » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:52 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Based on the damage on natural elements or rather simplistic constructs, you're sitting with something between a Death Glider's staff cannon and sometimes a bit above, based on the destruction of the bridge's central section (although a former bridge wasn't damaged at all previously). But we also have higher end cases for DGs:

Image Image

Staff cannons use liquid naquadah, which seems to be a diluted, extremely stable and low power version of the normal fuel, but that's conjecture (although the low power part is rather relying on solid grounds when compared to other nq based systems).

Be weary of the SG wikia, it uses several sources which never were canonical.

The lightning displayed an odd NDF effect once on the thiner and lighter parts of a plane, including the hull (bulkframe was spared), and is literally powerless against... rubber, only able to move the hit object backwards.
The Subelectron Amplifier's main interest would stand in its ability to never be depleted, according to the writings.

Oh and it does make a very impressive bomb though. Perhaps a total of several low terajoules of energy alone to move all that much water and create such a tidal wave.

Going for jewels, you can look at something like the Eyes in Stargate, like the Eye of Ra:
DANIEL
Jack, Abydos is in trouble. Anubis is on his way. He's after the Eye of Ra. I have that replica Catherine gave me, it looks like this.

DANIEL
Now, I'm pretty sure the real one is located in some secret chamber in Ra's pyramid on Abydos but I'm not sure where exactly. According to legend there were six Eyes including those held by Apophis, Osiris and Tiamat among others. Each is powerful on its own but to use them in combination increases that power ten fold. Recently, Anubis has managed to track down five of the six Eyes and only needs Ra's to complete the set. He's looked everywhere Ra used to hang out except Abydos; now he's on his way there.
Whether it's each Eye or the combination that gets multiplied by ten doesn't make a difference. See: (Eye x10) x6, or (Eye x6) x10.
It's hard to gauge the final power since the weapon was rather exotic but that would be massively absurd of Daniel to make such a big fuss about those eyes if they weren't at least more powerful than, say, a naqahdah bomb.
When you see that a lump of raw (read: non purified, non weaponized) naqahdah pushed a regular high KT nuclear weapon into a gigaton nightmare...

Image

Abydos was said to be gone, Anubis threatened to destroy Abydos, and Abydos was the name of the planet.
At the end of season 6, Anubis really had seized a lot of power from other System Lords and was wrecking havoc. The idea that he wouldn't have access to naqahdah to weaponize is beyond retarded.

Working this backwards, and knowing that the Eyes weren't destroyed in the process of feeding the main weapon system on Anubis' mothership, we get something that really makes an Eye some kind of mini ZPM.
The output of the "lightning gun" in no way tells us what the output of the crystal is. No two shots did the same thing, and they went out of their way to make things kiddy friendly rather then realistic.

How much power in a lightning bolt
http://www.windpowerengineering.com/fea ... lightning/

Lightning hitting bridge
http://www.dvice.com/archives/2012/04/p ... _light.php

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:15 pm

Doesn't really matter. All the Stargate power sources you mentionned vastly outclass that crystal in normal power output. A man-made, prototype portable naqahdah generator can easily be rigged to detonate in a multi-terajoule explosion.
Simply put, you need to pick in rather standardized power sources from Stargate to give the Amplfiier something to stand against.
Even Ancientized O'neill used the vial of liquid naqahdah from a Jaffa's staff to build a sort of one-shot mini-ZPM to power a stargate over a huge distance.
If you want power sources which are inferior to the Amplifier, you need to look for really base model power system such as found in numerous infantry energy weapons. Nothing too fancy there.
And if we were to compare the Amplifier not on the basis of the power output, but on its rarity, as it was unique, then you need to look at something like the unstable Ancient super ZPM which blew up nearly the entirety of a star system when gone critical, or the stable version built by humans which dumped exotic particles in another universe.

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Lucky » Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:53 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Doesn't really matter. All the Stargate power sources you mentionned vastly outclass that crystal in normal power output. A man-made, prototype portable naqahdah generator can easily be rigged to detonate in a multi-terajoule explosion.
1) How unstable something is says nothing about safe operating parameters, nor what the expected output would be over the reactor's life time.

2) Subelectron Amplifier is about the size of a can of pop, and a portable naquadah generator is about the size of a 24 can pack, and they can roughly do the same thing as I recall.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even Ancientized O'neill used the vial of liquid naqahdah from a Jaffa's staff to build a sort of one-shot mini-ZPM to power a stargate over a huge distance.
Jack using up all the fuel in a liquid naquadah fuel cell in a few seconds does not make it remotely similar to a Stargate style ZPM.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you want power sources which are inferior to the Amplifier, you need to look for really base model power system such as found in numerous infantry energy weapons. Nothing too fancy there.
A S.A. is basically intended to power a small city with air fields, advanced R&D, and everything that goes with that, and that would seem to place a S.A. in at least the same ball park as a a portable naquadah generator.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: And if we were to compare the Amplifier not on the basis of the power output, but on its rarity, as it was unique, then you need to look at something like the unstable Ancient super ZPM which blew up nearly the entirety of a star system when gone critical, or the stable version built by humans which dumped exotic particles in another universe.
We don't know why the S.A. was unique beyond only needing one, and costing a lot for a generally 1940s/1950s tech level

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:28 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Doesn't really matter. All the Stargate power sources you mentionned vastly outclass that crystal in normal power output. A man-made, prototype portable naqahdah generator can easily be rigged to detonate in a multi-terajoule explosion.
1) How unstable something is says nothing about safe operating parameters, nor what the expected output would be over the reactor's life time.
The portable nq reactor is stable. There's at the very least around 83 terajoules of energy which can be extracted from an already used reactor (the one McKay rigged to blow up).
Some other estimates of mine would allow the device to easily hold around a quarter of a megaton of energy or quite more (based on other cases of nq generators turned into nukes).
It can be pushed under stable conditions to an output in the 2 digits gigawatt range, for what would be roughly half an hour.
Such a reactor has been also used to provide most of the power to a starship used in a race which had ships circle a Sol-like star.

We haven't seen anything like that coming from the SA.
2) Subelectron Amplifier is about the size of a can of pop, and a portable naquadah generator is about the size of a 24 can pack, and they can roughly do the same thing as I recall.
Even if a nq generator was fifty times bigger, the normal power output divided by fifty is still superior to anything I've seen the SA output under normal use.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even Ancientized O'neill used the vial of liquid naqahdah from a Jaffa's staff to build a sort of one-shot mini-ZPM to power a stargate over a huge distance.
Jack using up all the fuel in a liquid naquadah fuel cell in a few seconds does not make it remotely similar to a Stargate style ZPM.
Yes, but it's been used to power a stargate.
Reminds me, only Ba'al and Thor have been seen using small devices even tinier than the SA to power a stargate.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you want power sources which are inferior to the Amplifier, you need to look for really base model power system such as found in numerous infantry energy weapons. Nothing too fancy there.
A S.A. is basically intended to power a small city with air fields, advanced R&D, and everything that goes with that, and that would seem to place a S.A. in at least the same ball park as a a portable naquadah generator.
Yes, but it looks like this remains pure theory because nothing like that was observed in the episode.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: And if we were to compare the Amplifier not on the basis of the power output, but on its rarity, as it was unique, then you need to look at something like the unstable Ancient super ZPM which blew up nearly the entirety of a star system when gone critical, or the stable version built by humans which dumped exotic particles in another universe.
We don't know why the S.A. was unique beyond only needing one, and costing a lot for a generally 1940s/1950s tech level
I'm not talking about why it's rare but comparing it to a power device of equal rarity in Stargate; that, to see what "rare power source" means in each universe.

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Lucky » Fri May 08, 2015 8:12 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: The portable nq reactor is stable.
Straw Man

I said that using the output when it was destroying itself was not a valid way to judge the capabilities of a generator.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: There's at the very least around 83 terajoules of energy which can be extracted from an already used reactor (the one McKay rigged to blow up).
Some other estimates of mine would allow the device to easily hold around a quarter of a megaton of energy or quite more (based on other cases of nq generators turned into nukes).
How much fuel can be stored in the tank really isn't very relavent.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It can be pushed under stable conditions to an output in the 2 digits gigawatt range, for what would be roughly half an hour.
A Mark I Naquadha generator is about the size of a twelve pack of 12 ounce pop cans
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... m03s62.png

A Mark 2 Naquadha generator is larger then three, 24 can cases of pop
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... 282%29.jpg

A Subelectron Amplifier is slightly smaller then a single 12 ounce can of pop, and includes what is described as an infinite amount of fuel. It was intended to power a city.

The outputs per volume are going to come out about the same when comparing the S.A. to the Mark 1.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Such a reactor has been also used to provide most of the power to a starship used in a race which had ships circle a Sol-like star.
Which is an unquantifiable event because ships use space magic drives for propulsion.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: We haven't seen anything like that coming from the SA.
We are told the purpose for which it was created, and that requires a few hundred megawatts at least.

We see the lightning gun shattering rock and concrete. We see the gun repeatedly create craters curb to curb at street level.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even if a nq generator was fifty times bigger, the normal power output divided by fifty is still superior to anything I've seen the SA output under normal use.
We never see the SA under normal/intended operating conditions, but it appears to work through some sort of piezoelectric like effect.

Given the purpose the SA was created to fill we can easily conclude that it is just as good if not better by volume. It would need to generator a few hundred megawatts after all, and that seems to fit with what we see.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yes, but it's been used to power a stargate.
Which isn't very quantifiable as far as I know.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Reminds me, only Ba'al and Thor have been seen using small devices even tinier than the SA to power a stargate.
That sounds more like garage door opener that just send a signal to something else.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yes, but it looks like this remains pure theory because nothing like that was observed in the episode.
If the S.A. could not do what it was designed to do, then why would they be transporting it with the intent of using it to basically power a city? They clearly tested the Subelectron Amplifier after creating it in a lab.

I want you to explain how two to four lane roads(not briges) were being cratered curb to curb with electrical arcs.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I'm not talking about why it's rare but comparing it to a power device of equal rarity in Stargate; that, to see what "rare power source" means in each universe.
From the episode there was nothing stopping anyone from making more Subelectron Amplifier. They just chose to make only one because that was all that was needed.

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Re: Subelectron Amplifier VS Stargate power sources

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:14 pm

Lucky wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The portable nq reactor is stable.
Straw Man

I said that using the output when it was destroying itself was not a valid way to judge the capabilities of a generator.
The method I bring forth allows anyone to know how much that reactor contains. The energy produced for the explosion if from the naqahdah fuel itself, nothing else.
So it tells us, in a rather clear way, how much energy can be harnassed.
Now, an explosion isn't the best way to extract energy from the fuel, especially since the device is absolutely not built as a bomb. A careful, stable process that is part of an entire power plant design is certainly best suited to extract down to the last joule of energy from the fuel than a quickly cooked up bomb. So the energy figure extracted from the explosion is more than likely a conservative one on these grounds alone.
Also, for each case of a nq generator being modified into a bomb, each one had been used before hand, so we're never basing the calculations from the maximum fuel carried within the device. Which means it is another proof that the figures are conservative.
Nonetheless, from the energetic figure we've got, and used alongside facts we possess about the Mark-II's solid case, a reactor that was only superior in that it produced six times more power (and thus drained the fuel six times faster), including how long it took to drain its fuel, we can get the power output.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: There's at the very least around 83 terajoules of energy which can be extracted from an already used reactor (the one McKay rigged to blow up).
Some other estimates of mine would allow the device to easily hold around a quarter of a megaton of energy or quite more (based on other cases of nq generators turned into nukes).
How much fuel can be stored in the tank really isn't very relavent.
On the contrary, it's highly relevant to the calculation about the device's power output, as I explained above.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It can be pushed under stable conditions to an output in the 2 digits gigawatt range, for what would be roughly half an hour.
A Mark I Naquadha generator is about the size of a twelve pack of 12 ounce pop cans
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... m03s62.png

A Mark 2 Naquadha generator is larger then three, 24 can cases of pop
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/sta ... 282%29.jpg

A Subelectron Amplifier is slightly smaller then a single 12 ounce can of pop, and includes what is described as an infinite amount of fuel. It was intended to power a city.
Of a level of technology greatly inferior to Atlantis or any modern city as a matter of fact.
The outputs per volume are going to come out about the same when comparing the S.A. to the Mark 1.
I gave you the figures for the Mark-I. You haven't produced one single piece of evidence that the SA is even remotely approaching this kind of power.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Such a reactor has been also used to provide most of the power to a starship used in a race which had ships circle a Sol-like star.
Which is an unquantifiable event because ships use space magic drives for propulsion.
The reactor also powered the defenses (shield). At such a close range, the power requirements are going to be enormous.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: We haven't seen anything like that coming from the SA.
We are told the purpose for which it was created, and that requires a few hundred megawatts at least.
Which would still come at the very one order of magnitude below a Mark-I Nq reactor.
We see the lightning gun shattering rock and concrete. We see the gun repeatedly create craters curb to curb at street level.
Small streets?
The same device fired a bolt that could disintegrate the hull of a plane. It also has "space magic" to destroy matter.
We don't know how the energy couples with the ground and therefore how it amplifies (or not) any ground detonation.
You may need to find another link to the video because it doesn't seem to work anymore so I can't verify your claims.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Even if a nq generator was fifty times bigger, the normal power output divided by fifty is still superior to anything I've seen the SA output under normal use.
We never see the SA under normal/intended operating conditions, but it appears to work through some sort of piezoelectric like effect.

Given the purpose the SA was created to fill we can easily conclude that it is just as good if not better by volume. It would need to generator a few hundred megawatts after all, and that seems to fit with what we see.
Which again is considerably below the output of the not so much bigger Nq reactor Mark-I.
Besides, there's no proof whatsoever that the SW could output more under normal use.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yes, but it's been used to power a stargate.
Which isn't very quantifiable as far as I know.
I'm working from memories here, but there's an interesting case to look at.
One of the earliest episodes of SG-1 featured SG-1 powering a stargate through lightning bolts during a very violent thunderstorm that was wrecking an old castle built on a cliff. The original DHD had fallen into the sea after a violent bolt ruptured the floor. Stargate can act as superconductors and are damn tough, can store up to vast amount of energy so much as easily tank nuclear explosions and even be powered by them.
The lightning bolts were clearly of the most devastating variety, probably above 100,000 amps. We may be looking at bolts worth of a couple gigajoules each. The stargate was hit a couple times iirc.
This somehow proved just enough to power the stargate. That is assuming the stargate was entirely empty. Since they can be charged, there's never been any evidence that a stargate was completely depleted once the wormhole disconnected.
What this means is that the total energy gotten from the lightning bolts is a conservative value regarding the total energy needed by a stargate to open a wormhole, even on a short range.
The generators brought to Atlantis allowed the expedition team to launch many missions across the Pegasus galaxy for over a year, alongside powering the city and many power hungry systems inside (the last ZPM was barely keeping up when they arrived in the city).
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Reminds me, only Ba'al and Thor have been seen using small devices even tinier than the SA to power a stargate.
That sounds more like garage door opener that just send a signal to something else.
Except that the garage door opener opens a door that is connected to a power grid, which is not the case of a stargate.
The examples I refered to aren't the best ones since there's always the possibility that the stargates were precharged at arrival.
However, Teal'c used the same device as Ba'al's to power the Russian stargate that had been sitting there for eons without ever being powered up.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yes, but it looks like this remains pure theory because nothing like that was observed in the episode.
If the S.A. could not do what it was designed to do, then why would they be transporting it with the intent of using it to basically power a city? They clearly tested the Subelectron Amplifier after creating it in a lab.
Please provide a figure about the power requirement of that city, based on what is known from the show.
I want you to explain how two to four lane roads(not briges) were being cratered curb to curb with electrical arcs.
Please explain how a bolt from the same source could disintegrate matter? Isn't it odd?
Please, provide pictures too.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I'm not talking about why it's rare but comparing it to a power device of equal rarity in Stargate; that, to see what "rare power source" means in each universe.
From the episode there was nothing stopping anyone from making more Subelectron Amplifier. They just chose to make only one because that was all that was needed.
Same could be said about naqahdah generators, the weakest of the power sources from the show.

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