Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Stargate)

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Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Stargate)

Post by sonofccn » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:22 pm

Taking place on Lord Yu's homeworld this quick and dirty match up pits the merciless death worshipping Necromongers against the stalwart and frequently put upon Jaffa army to determine whether gods of death or enslavement shall reign supreme in the Verse.

Scenario 1:

Jaffa take to the defense of their god Yu against a roughly equal number of Necromongers who have been transported to a staging ground planet side by act of a blood-lusted Khorne. Standard kit for both sides. Neither side has access to their ships but are allowed Necromonger fighters and death gliders/ Al'keshs.

Scenario 2:

Same as the above but the Jaffa are replaced with an equal number of Kull Warriors.

Who wins?

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:51 pm

I'm yet to see the last Riddick movie and I don't know if Necromongers are featured in it.
In terms of strength, now, the idea is that Jaffa are stronger. Jaffa are by default more muscular than the stock human, and their symbiote grants them an edge.
Necromongers probably are a slight step above the normal human I think, but the more impressive feats are not necessarily a standard. However, they tank pain like if it didn't exist when it comes to being impaled with daggers, but they'd still go down against infantry weapons which, although perhaps more damaging per bolt than a bullet from your regular M16, don't seem to come with greater settings, even if "uncontrolled". What I mean by that is that we've seen Jaffa staves do varying levels of damage to people and inert objects, sometimes enough to put fist sized holes in reinforced materials. So I think Necromongers will be taken down rather normally by Jaffa weapons.

Most Necromongers actually fight with blades. Few of them used guns (semi auto, very low rate of fire), although said guns were rather powerful. Perhaps overkill though, they'd send people flying.
They also have those bizarre sticks they plan in the ground and kill everybody around in a radius of perhaps fiften meters after an excruciatingly long cinematic process. Honestly, more than enough time to either blast the stick or run away. Kinda stupid design. But perhaps it's not a weapon?

Jaffa have a real advantage here. Simply put, all of them carry a ranged weapon, most of the time the staff. It's not accurate (unless you're very talented), but it does the job in preventing the enemy from closing the distance and it keeps them pinned down.
The ratio of zatnikatel guns is also very high and its abilities are more than useful. They can stun (perhaps one shot would mildly disable a Necromonger though, debatable), but the second surely kills Jaffas routinely so I don't think Necronmongers would survive at all. Third shot does what it does, disintegrating the same target as long as it's human sized or less and charged with zat energy in a concentrated amount of time (within minutes i'd say). Bolts also can run along metal structures so sticking to metal would certainly not help at all. In other words, if you were to hold a metal weapon and have said weapon be hit, you'd probably get your zat shot it you were touching the metal part of said weapon. Energy arcs aren't out of the equation either.
One zat shot can also disable/burn an electro-mechanical control.
Besides those weapons (and the zat is generally more accurate), Jaffa might carry a frag or stun grenade. They're very powerful. They're quite rare though, I'd say in a platoon of 1000 Jaffa, probably one or two would carry a stun grenade, and even less would carry a blast grenade.

But that's more than enough to give the Jaffa a superiority here.

When it comes to fighters, the Necromongers' crafts weren't much impressive. They could ram other jets, which themselves didn't seem particularly sturdy, but normal heavy gatling fire would still take them down.
They also seem to have no canopy and open to air, so they're strictly aerocrafts.
Death Gliders are spacecrafts and noted for impressive accelerations, plus capacties to enter and leave atmosphere at impressive speeds.
Guns on Necromonger crafts allow for a greater barrage of fire iirc. Other than that, I wouldn't say they're superior.
Besides, the guns of a DG can be dismounted and used as heavy staff weapons since they're independant units. Therefore any staff cannon salvaged from a crashed DG will provide a very nice addition to the Jaffa army's firepower.
A crashed DG offers more chances to a Jaffa to survive.

All in all, this goes to the Jaffa. DGs shall survive, but in small numbers, and only add to the superiority of the Jaffa on the ground.

The presence of Al'keshes should be balance by the use of the heavy crafts on the Necromongers' side, although the later hardly were noted for providing much air support, and although heavily armed and armoured, were used to destroy ground targets.



Kull warriors: you don't want to go there. It's simply overkill. You've got a blank and sort of zombie-like mix of a symbiote and a host encased inside an armour that's been seen withstand all sorts of energy weapons, explosives and even missiles mounted on small drone planes. The only cases of Kull warriors being taken down involve:
- magitech weapons killing whatever is inside them after a few shots.
- a nearby low kiloton blast from a naqahdah generator on self destruct: the armour had micro cracks invisible to the naked eye (!) but the concussion killed the organism inside.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:44 pm

Where you inspired by any given older thread on another web site perhaps?

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by sonofccn » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:31 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm yet to see the last Riddick movie and I don't know if Necromongers are featured in it.
They’re shown very briefly in the beginning to explain why Riddick isn’t leading them anymore.

Infantry-

The bog standard Necromonger soldier is a fanatic warrior conditioned, as you said, to ignore pain reducing the effectiveness of any nonfatal wounding. And while clearly predicted towards close combat I would have to disagree that “Most Necromongers” fight only with blades. A quick watch over the invasion of Helios Prime I would argue that other than the team guarding the icon-staff bomb thing guns were quite prevalent if not consisting of the majority. Performance wise Necromonger rifles/pistols appear to be typical “flashy” Hollywood type rayguns that are more than powerful enough to kill human targets but effects on other materials are more esoteric if not inconsistent. They do seem to throw bodies very well through. Semi-automatics their rate of fire is dependent on how fast the user squeezes the trigger making them quite comparable to a Jaffa staff weapon in that regard.

As a quasi-support weapon some Necromongers carry the aforementioned icon-staff bomb which, it appears, is a suicidal weapon they carry fighting into the heart of an enemy formation and with a destructive swathe of, as you estimate, a diameter of thirty meters is likely the solitary most powerful weapon in play in this battlefield. Disadvantages, of course, are the aforementioned suicide aspect as well as the waste of tens of perfectly good Necromonger warriors needed to push through the enemy ranks and get the weapon into position. Time from triggering the weapon to detonation is needlessly delayed but within closed ranks or a constrained environment such as inside a city area it still would provide some difficulty escaping. Especially if there are still any irate Necromongers fighting in the enemy’s midst. Further breaking rank and scattering would almost serve the bomb’s purpose just as well allowing the subsequent waves of Necromonger warriors to sweep over and scour the disparate survivors.

Necromonger army also employs Lensors grotesque melding of man and machinery as “blood hounds” essentially. They appear to have a wide and sensitive spectrum of “sight” capable of detecting living bodies through solid material and should provide quite an advantage in terms of threat detection. Especially if the fight takes place under the cover of night’s darkness.

Comparisons-

Head to head a Necromonger vs a Jaffa warrior{ factoring the Necromonger’s conditioning and armor as well as the normal Jaffa accuracy, rate of fire and typical damage}I do not think the Jaffa would be effective in suppressing or preventing the Necromonger from closing the distance while conversely even a glancing hit from the Necromonger’s “gravity pistol” should stun and disorientate, if not kill, the Jaffa and closing to melee a Necromonger armed with a pole-ax likely would have an edge against your bog standard Jaffa. This would only be magnified in a city-fight with reduced line of sights for both parties.

Zatnikatel are far more formidable but appear to be more limited in range compared to the Jaffa staff weapon and are not as frequently utilized hampering their potential.

As for the various grenades I have grave qualms, at your estimate of one per 1000+ Jaffa, that they’ll prove useful. The odds of getting that one guy in a thousand in the right spot to be of use without him getting killed in an army with an age of Antiquity command and control seems slim.

Staff cannons, both emplacement and wheeled variants, conversely are far more regularly used, offer ranges comparable if not superior to a standard staff weapon and hit with something comparable to a small explosive shell making a Necromonger assault against one bloodily costly at best if not impossibly suicidal. The only downside is that their use as emplacement guns or line of sight artillery suggests they are too large and cumbersome for bog standard Jaffa to carry reliably or otherwise swiftly redeploy in response to a changing battlefield.

Fighters-

The Necromonger fighter appears to be a rugged, maneuverable fighter equipped with sufficiently firepower to quickly destroy similar sized adversaries. That it is open air does preclude its use above a certain ceiling but within the confines of the battle it is unlikely to prove a handicap. As well that it posses at least a halfway decent chance of impacting a Helios Prime fighter, not established as particularly fragile, and surviving is a plus in its category.

Comparison-

Both Death Gliders and Necromonger fighters demonstrate similar in atmosphere, “cinematic” performance and are equipped with guns equally capable of killing each other. However, much like their infantry counterpart, I think the fighters would attack with a certain reckless berserker fury and coupled with the fact ramming is an apparently potentially survivable tactic for the Necromongers means they’re going to tear through Death Gliders formations shooting and smashing with chaotic glee. And because of that I think they'll take air superiority, albeit with heavy losses.

Bombers-I am open to any suggestion as what would be a fair equivalent to the Al’kesh. At the top of my head I really don’t think they have anything really in its role or weight class.

Comparisons-

N/A

Overall

In the final analysis I'd give a slight edge to the Jaffa Army. Staff Cannons and Zats are potent and powerful weapons and excellent force multipliers which can and would break the teeth on more than one Necromonger assault. Conversely the Necromongers have no equivalent other than a poorly designed sucide bomb and while I do believe they will, after a bloody fight, achieve air superiority the Necromonger Fighter seems ill suited to providing serious ground support and will likely be tied up suppressing Al'keshs.

The only caveat is I would say this victory is far more precarious than I believe you've suggested, a few lucky breaks falling in favor of the Necromongers or if they figure out they can loot downed Death Gliders for staff cannons and they could pull a Pyrrhic victory.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Kull warriors: you don't want to go there. It's simply overkill. You've got a blank and sort of zombie-like mix of a symbiote and a host encased inside an armour that's been seen withstand all sorts of energy weapons, explosives and even missiles mounted on small drone planes. The only cases of Kull warriors being taken down involve:
- magitech weapons killing whatever is inside them after a few shots.
- a nearby low kiloton blast from a naqahdah generator on self destruct: the armour had micro cracks invisible to the naked eye (!) but the concussion killed the organism inside.
Yes, it is overkill. But it would be bloody fun to watch none the less. :)
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Where you inspired by any given older thread on another web site perhaps?
No. Just happened to watch Chronicles of Riddick and the original Stargate movie on the same day.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:12 am

sonofccn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Where you inspired by any given older thread on another web site perhaps?
No. Just happened to watch Chronicles of Riddick and the original Stargate movie on the same day.
Just rewatched CoR and it's a pleasant, stylish action movie. When you compare it to the other action movies, really, this one deserves praise. The attention to culture and details is rather good. It's very far from flawless but it builds up well enough, sometimes meh, sometimes very nice, to the climax which concluded brillantly.
There's this otherwordly aspect to it that reminds me of Lunch's Dune, another unloved movie. And, yes, the Stargate movie also has that refined and curious exotism to it, although not as morbid, but still extremely stylish.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:49 am

sonofccn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'm yet to see the last Riddick movie and I don't know if Necromongers are featured in it.
They’re shown very briefly in the beginning to explain why Riddick isn’t leading them anymore.
I am soon to be a watcher of this new video. >:]
Infantry-

The bog standard Necromonger soldier is a fanatic warrior conditioned, as you said, to ignore pain reducing the effectiveness of any nonfatal wounding. And while clearly predicted towards close combat I would have to disagree that “Most Necromongers” fight only with blades. A quick watch over the invasion of Helios Prime I would argue that other than the team guarding the icon-staff bomb thing guns were quite prevalent if not consisting of the majority. Performance wise Necromonger rifles/pistols appear to be typical “flashy” Hollywood type rayguns that are more than powerful enough to kill human targets but effects on other materials are more esoteric if not inconsistent. They do seem to throw bodies very well through. Semi-automatics their rate of fire is dependent on how fast the user squeezes the trigger making them quite comparable to a Jaffa staff weapon in that regard.
With memories recently refreshed, I can second this, they do carry guns. Many are seen to do so, plus it seems those guns can have an extra handle on the side, which is most welcome for greater stability, although they've never been shown to suffer any recoil.
However, on the downside, they're not seen used at long ranges. I tried to find cases of medium range firing, and there's none either. They're always seen used in close ranges, which rather dramatically reduces their usefulness.
The way they're built, they simply don't lend to greater accuracy anyway. I haven't seen them capable of destroying or even simply seriously damaging objects.

Compared to Jaffa weapons, staves still provide greater verified range and sharp shooters can actually achieve good scores. Plus their included blast effects on anything they hit can cause enough of a distraction at the very least if a fighter is pinned down or hiding behind a wall. At the greater ranges, you have a blast you don't want to land near your head or feet. I take that a definitive plus, if only to lay down a barrage of fire.
Overall, it still gives the edge to Jaffa with a greater range and the ability to cause damage to obstacles.

Now, sending people flying is a good thing if firing against enemy troops walking in tight formations because you get one killed and possibly one to three soldiers momentaneously disabled, thrown to the floor after being hit by the flying trooper.
But this is a minimal advantage and only to be expected at close range.
As a quasi-support weapon some Necromongers carry the aforementioned icon-staff bomb which, it appears, is a suicidal weapon they carry fighting into the heart of an enemy formation and with a destructive swathe of, as you estimate, a diameter of thirty meters is likely the solitary most powerful weapon in play in this battlefield. Disadvantages, of course, are the aforementioned suicide aspect as well as the waste of tens of perfectly good Necromonger warriors needed to push through the enemy ranks and get the weapon into position.
I don't even know if it's to be treated as a weapon. The Necromongers who were standing behind the Helion Prime troopers weren't even moved by the blast despite standing at something like fifteen meters away from the icon staff.
I might have overestimated the blast radius by five meters.
Anyway, it's a totally impractical device.
Just to be polite, because in reality it's just totally nonsensical. Even its activation requires planting it (assuming it can be planted), then one Necromonger needs to twist a hilt a mid height, then pull same hilt down along the shaft.
Time from triggering the weapon to detonation is needlessly delayed but within closed ranks or a constrained environment such as inside a city area it still would provide some difficulty escaping.
Especially if there are still any irate Necromongers fighting in the enemy’s midst.
You can escape this whole thing in a couple seconds. Really, it's one of the worst aspects of the movie, especially since the bigger versions actually do have an insane range. It would have been perfect for such a device to actually have a range of, I don't know, half a kilometer in diameter and therefore making the suicidal Necroes really frightening.
But we just get served with some wet fireworks. :/
Further breaking rank and scattering would almost serve the bomb’s purpose just as well allowing the subsequent waves of Necromonger warriors to sweep over and scour the disparate survivors.
The device was cool, but I don't feel like defending its uselessness.
On the other hand, those devicesare real, used several times in the show and are used very easy. They're a bit big to carry but their effects are damn good and ca be dialed up to very large ranges: in the first season finale, one was used to knocn out all Jaffa in a multi-floor Death Glider hangar bay on Apophis' Hatak. That's easily several dozens of meters of radius.
Necromonger army also employs Lensors grotesque melding of man and machinery as “blood hounds” essentially. They appear to have a wide and sensitive spectrum of “sight” capable of detecting living bodies through solid material and should provide quite an advantage in terms of threat detection. Especially if the fight takes place under the cover of night’s darkness.
They are a good addition. If the battle's pace slows down and turns into a slow hunting game, lensors will provide a clear advantage in ambushing Jaffa.
The trouble is, these lensors have only be seen used by the higher levels of Necromonger troops. You simply see none of those sluggish hominids during the disgorging of troops. They are a rather sight in fact, and worst of all, used in conjunction with Necromongers favouring blades.
I don't think it would make a huge difference on the larger scale.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:08 am

Head to head a Necromonger vs a Jaffa warrior{ factoring the Necromonger’s conditioning and armor as well as the normal Jaffa accuracy, rate of fire and typical damage}I do not think the Jaffa would be effective in suppressing or preventing the Necromonger from closing the distance while conversely even a glancing hit from the Necromonger’s “gravity pistol” should stun and disorientate, if not kill, the Jaffa and closing to melee a Necromonger armed with a pole-ax likely would have an edge against your bog standard Jaffa. This would only be magnified in a city-fight with reduced line of sights for both parties.
Actually, SG-1 has been abundant in showing that even SG-1 and their much more effective weapons would easily be pinned down, either on open terrain or in corridors, by cross fire and multiple shots.
In tight small groups, Jaffa and their staves are really a pain in the arse.
Zatnikatel are far more formidable but appear to be more limited in range compared to the Jaffa staff weapon and are not as frequently utilized hampering their potential.
They're still more than frequent enough and easier to use in close quarters. In a ruined urban landscape, they could even allow Jaffa to dig out paths without requiring the use of explosives. Much more discrete.
As for the various grenades I have grave qualms, at your estimate of one per 1000+ Jaffa, that they’ll prove useful. The odds of getting that one guy in a thousand in the right spot to be of use without him getting killed in an army with an age of Antiquity command and control seems slim.
They can still be picked up by another Jaffa. The stun devices could even be used against tight packs of Jaffa and Necromongers. The former would simply need to recover, the later would be finished off.
Staff cannons, both emplacement and wheeled variants, conversely are far more regularly used, offer ranges comparable if not superior to a standard staff weapon and hit with something comparable to a small explosive shell making a Necromonger assault against one bloodily costly at best if not impossibly suicidal. The only downside is that their use as emplacement guns or line of sight artillery suggests they are too large and cumbersome for bog standard Jaffa to carry reliably or otherwise swiftly redeploy in response to a changing battlefield.
They're impractical to be carried, but it's not impossible either. Apophis had used one to pry open a small blast metal door in the altverse episode (everything worked the same for a few light character swaps).
Both Death Gliders and Necromonger fighters demonstrate similar in atmosphere, “cinematic” performance and are equipped with guns equally capable of killing each other. However, much like their infantry counterpart, I think the fighters would attack with a certain reckless berserker fury and coupled with the fact ramming is an apparently potentially survivable tactic for the Necromongers means they’re going to tear through Death Gliders formations shooting and smashing with chaotic glee. And because of that I think they'll take air superiority, albeit with heavy losses.
Surviving ramming of fighters which haven't proven to be any superior to modern fighters is mildly impressive. It takes just a solid slab of metal after all, but we've seen these fighters go down to not so impressive firepower.
As for the chances of ramming another craft, the odds are rather limited.
I don't think a DG would survive while the Necromonger craft has good chances to, but really, chances for impacts are rather slim unless both sides really follow simplistic collision courses.
The DGs have the superiority to circle their enemies because they are space capable and can go very fast.
I am open to any suggestion as what would be a fair equivalent to the Al’kesh. At the top of my head I really don’t think they have anything really in its role or weight class.
I've spotted at least two similarly sized ships on the Necromongers' side but none were armed and only served as transports. If Al'keshes aren't taken down, they'll be a serious issue for Necromongers on the ground since they simply have absolutely zero way to take them down from below.
The only caveat is I would say this victory is far more precarious than I believe you've suggested, a few lucky breaks falling in favor of the Necromongers or if they figure out they can loot downed Death Gliders for staff cannons and they could pull a Pyrrhic victory.
Likewise, Jaffa could loot the apparently easy to use guns and could carry some of those axes and blades.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Darth Spock » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:14 am

Can three play this game? ;D
sonofccn wrote: Scenario 1:

Jaffa take to the defense of their god Yu against a roughly equal number of Necromongers who have been transported to a staging ground planet side by act of a blood-lusted Khorne. Standard kit for both sides. Neither side has access to their ships but are allowed Necromonger fighters and death gliders/ Al'keshs.
sonofccn wrote: Staff cannons, both emplacement and wheeled variants, conversely are far more regularly used, offer ranges comparable if not superior to a standard staff weapon and hit with something comparable to a small explosive shell making a Necromonger assault against one bloodily costly at best if not impossibly suicidal.
I wasn't sure this would be considered "standard kit," though since it is on the Goa'uld home world, I suppose home field advantage would include not only the high ground, but whatever defensive emplacements would logically be found there.
sonofccn wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Kull warriors: you don't want to go there. It's simply overkill. You've got a blank and sort of zombie-like mix of a symbiote and a host encased inside an armour that's been seen withstand all sorts of energy weapons, explosives and even missiles mounted on small drone planes. The only cases of Kull warriors being taken down involve:
- magitech weapons killing whatever is inside them after a few shots.
- a nearby low kiloton blast from a naqahdah generator on self destruct: the armour had micro cracks invisible to the naked eye (!) but the concussion killed the organism inside.
Yes, it is overkill. But it would be bloody fun to watch none the less. :)
Skipping to scenario two, yeah, massive overkill, but, given sufficient cuncussive force can kill a Kull through it's armor, those gravity guns might actually be unusually effective. At least the Necro's may fair better than most against them.

Something left open ended on the possible scenarios was the approximate number of combatants... With what Mr. Oragahn and sonofccn have covered, the Jaffa are probably stronger and have better long range abilities, but a bunch of death worshiping berserker's unencumbered by pain would probably be devastating at close range. Jaffa may be strong, but even their armor can't guarantee protection from Necro blades, and I can't get rid of the image of the 2 Jaffa clumsily swinging their staffs at the civilians at the end of the Stargate movie. Getting to my point, I think even with a roughly equal number of combatants, the actual numbers involved might make a difference. Hundreds? I vote easy Jaffa victory. Thousands? My money is still on the Jaffa. Tens of thousands? Uhhhm... enough waves of crazed kamikazes swarming in and I'm starting to have my doubts.

I have the opposite thought on aircraft. My memories are shaky, but from what I do recall, and from the posts already made, I think the Jaffa have the advantage in aircraft. In air to air combat its probably a close match, I think leaning toward the Jaffa side though, and air to ground I think definitely goes to the Jaffa.

Thats just my thoughts thrown into the mix :)

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:21 am

Darth Spock wrote: Skipping to scenario two, yeah, massive overkill, but, given sufficient cuncussive force can kill a Kull through it's armor, those gravity guns might actually be unusually effective. At least the Necro's may fair better than most against them.
They'd begun to be effective if they could provide accelerations on the same level of explosives. And that would be the absolute minimum for starting to be noticed... which we know fail to kill.
Something left open ended on the possible scenarios was the approximate number of combatants... With what Mr. Oragahn and sonofccn have covered, the Jaffa are probably stronger and have better long range abilities, but a bunch of death worshiping berserker's unencumbered by pain would probably be devastating at close range. Jaffa may be strong, but even their armor can't guarantee protection from Necro blades, and I can't get rid of the image of the 2 Jaffa clumsily swinging their staffs at the civilians at the end of the Stargate movie. Getting to my point, I think even with a roughly equal number of combatants, the actual numbers involved might make a difference. Hundreds? I vote easy Jaffa victory. Thousands? My money is still on the Jaffa. Tens of thousands? Uhhhm... enough waves of crazed kamikazes swarming in and I'm starting to have my doubts.
The staves are good but won't kill efficiently at all, they require brunt force to crack skulls which, although possible, is simply not as straight forward as using blades.
Now, on the Jaffa chainmail's protection, it's hard to say. It's been seen to provide very good protection against normal firearms as used in the mid 90s, and the Jaffa were strong enough to withstand the recoil.
All Jaffas wear that basic outfit, unless they're like the special guys serving Ra, who didn't wear anything in particular. But this was in the movie. I really can't remember a case of a Jaffa in the series not wearing a chainmail and some extra padding when serving a System Lord, no matter the rank.
But then on the other hand I remember an episode having a sort of viking killing a Jaffa by throwing his axe into the Jaffa's chest. Technically, the chainmail should have totally prevented that so I don't think this case is logically acceptable.
So what about the Necromongers' cutting weapons?
I haven't noticed any Necron blade to achieve particularly impressive feats, aside perhaps from the brutish Necroe leader who kills imam before being killed by Riddick. This fearsome brute wedged his axe in the stone adobe above his head by throwing it before climbing a sort-of ladder. Hollywood stylish moves aside, it's unknown how solid the arch's material was.
Necronmongers' suits don't seem to offer any real good protection against Helion knives since there was one Necroe who walked around with a knife planted in his upper back, near the right shoulder and didn't give a f***.
Hard to say. There could be high chances that Necromongers' weapons be not to lethal.

Also, element largely forgotten, the Jaffa have experience in combat and follow training. Necromongers, on the other hand, we don't know. The converted could be mere conscripts and only those who excel go up the ranks.
Jaffa are elligible to become warriors as soon as their prim'ta is done, which happens at a very young age, meaning that all those Jaffa we saw are actually survivors who do have combat experience with their weapons, since the Systems Lords enjoying having battles from time to time.

The other strange factor is that some symbiotes are adult enough to actually crawl out of killed Jaffa and take control of hosts. I don't think this would happen a lot, nor am I sure about the advantage provided there aside from adding +1 to one side and -1 to the other. However, the symbiote has access to the all knowledge of the host. The symbiote would need to find a way into the Necromonger though. With all the armour, that's easier said than done.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Darth Spock » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:14 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:They'd begun to be effective if they could provide accelerations on the same level of explosives. And that would be the absolute minimum for starting to be noticed... which we know fail to kill.
I'll buy that. My recollections of the Kull are vague, and for sure the gravity guns aren't near what a Naquadah generator on self-destruct would be. I was operating under the idea that a concussive force, (an exotic sci-fi gravity manipulation at that) powerful enough to throw a man through the air, and concentrated into a small enough area from the muzzle of a gun might inflict sufficient force to rupture some internal organs through the armor. I may have overestimated that though. Oh well, the Kull own this one anyway, it's just a matter of degree. :P

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, on the Jaffa chainmail's protection, it's hard to say. It's been seen to provide very good protection against normal firearms as used in the mid 90s, and the Jaffa were strong enough to withstand the recoil.
All Jaffas wear that basic outfit, unless they're like the special guys serving Ra, who didn't wear anything in particular. But this was in the movie. I really can't remember a case of a Jaffa in the series not wearing a chainmail and some extra padding when serving a System Lord, no matter the rank.
But then on the other hand I remember an episode having a sort of viking killing a Jaffa by throwing his axe into the Jaffa's chest. Technically, the chainmail should have totally prevented that so I don't think this case is logically acceptable.
Er, what? Maybe I'm remembering all the wrong episodes, but I recall Jaffa being reliably mown down by SG-1's standard weapons, the P90 in particular I believe. Realistically too, chainmail isn't known for its bullet stopping value. But the Necros don't use typical ballistic firearms anyway, so I don't see the point. As far as stopping bladed weapons, it certainly helps, or it wouldn't have been used throughout so much of history, but it doesn't guarantee safety either. Now, I did a little looking online, and found that axes aren't as effective against chain as I thought they might be. Still, we can't assume Jaffa can simply "tank" blades at close range, and then there is the example given of an axe defeating Jaffa armor. Maybe they're using poor quality chest protectors and butted mail... If nothing else, they conspicuously lack adequate head/face protection, particularly compared to what all they have wrapped around the rest of their bodies.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The staves are good but won't kill efficiently at all, they require brunt force to crack skulls which, although possible, is simply not as straight forward as using blades
My thought exactly, and the Necro's wear a considerable amount of armor too. This was also my concern when referencing the two Jaffa getting bum-rushed at the end of the Stargate movie. I agree their armor, or lack thereof, was unique to that situation, and two against hundreds is hardly a good example of their overall efficiency, but it reflects the kind of chaos I think a long term, large scale battle between the Jaffa and Necro could degenerate into. Now, the Jaffa do have the benefit of fighting other Jaffa due to the battles between system lords, so they aren't limited to subjugating lessor worlds and subduing slaves. Even so, I think the Goa'uld's forces rely more on fear and intimidation than raw military prowess. Of course, the same could be said of the Necros.
sonofccn wrote:In the final analysis I'd give a slight edge to the Jaffa Army. Staff Cannons and Zats are potent and powerful weapons and excellent force multipliers which can and would break the teeth on more than one Necromonger assault. Conversely the Necromongers have no equivalent other than a poorly designed sucide bomb and while I do believe they will, after a bloody fight, achieve air superiority the Necromonger Fighter seems ill suited to providing serious ground support and will likely be tied up suppressing Al'keshs.

The only caveat is I would say this victory is far more precarious than I believe you've suggested, a few lucky breaks falling in favor of the Necromongers or if they figure out they can loot downed Death Gliders for staff cannons and they could pull a Pyrrhic victory.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Also, element largely forgotten, the Jaffa have experience in combat and follow training. Necromongers, on the other hand, we don't know. The converted could be mere conscripts and only those who excel go up the ranks.
Here is where I think the Jaffa may get into trouble in a larger engagement. The conditions of the battle put it on Yu's home world. That gives the Jaffa home field advantage, but it also puts them on the defensive. As stated, Jaffa are "experienced in combat and follow training." Looking at the Necro's society and manner of attack, they aren't going to be prioritizing their targets the way a typical enemy Goa'uld likely would. Certainly they will take raw materials, new technology, and, of course, converts, but they won’t be looking to capture many of the typical strategic locations or the like for future use. They will be out to devastate any opposition, and induct converts.
At longer ranges, and in smaller groups or one on one at close range, I'm sure the Jaffa would generally be superior. In a sufficiently large engagement, however, as the battle degenerates into a chaotic, omni-directional melee, Jaffa discipline will lose its potency, any early advantage held by the Jaffa will begin to sway slowly back into the Nerco’s favor. Any Jaffa forces that advance on Necro positions will be at a serious disadvantage over those holding fortified positions, and even with Zats and Staff Cannons, I don't think the Jaffa have the means to adequately hold defensive lines against a large enough force.
A Pyrrhic victory is all the Necros need. Looking at the Necros general philosophy, and thinking of one scene from The Chronicles of Riddock in particular, after eliminating a planets military resistance they, in epitomic irony, use fear of death to terrorize the surviving citizenry into converting to their cause of omnicidal death worshipers. After indoctrination and training, these new members make for surplus cannon fodder at the very least, until as said earlier, those who excel move up the ranks. With this view, I can see that a Goa'uld planet would be very tempting to the Necromongers. There’s lots of raw materials to harvest, new Naquadah technology to adopt, and after the Jaffa defenses are eliminated, all those slaves just ripe and waiting to be converted to the service of their new gods.

At this point, I’ll admit that I have almost completely ignored air power. Contrary to my views on the infantries, the larger the number of aerial units involved, the more I feel the battle would sway back into the favor of the Jaffa, as I briefly mentioned in my first post. But so far I've focused my attention on the possible outcome of a large ground battle with minimal air support on either side.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:43 pm

Darth Spock wrote: Er, what? Maybe I'm remembering all the wrong episodes, but I recall Jaffa being reliably mown down by SG-1's standard weapons, the P90 in particular I believe.
SG troops immediately switched to armour penetrating rounds iirc.
Jaffa weren't imperveous, at least two died without even one sign of any damage to exposed skin.
But the plates clearly protected them well and Yu's own forces, on his own planet, ought to have equivalent armour.
The point is, this kind of armour should laugh at blades.

The viking throwing an axe at a Jaffa in the chest and killing him on Cimmeria was plot fiat for humour shock and completely failed to perpetuate the feeling of fear Jaffa were supposed to instill to low tech people.

Realistically too, chainmail isn't known for its bullet stopping value.
Which actually mean that the one Apophis' troops used was really that good.
Here is where I think the Jaffa may get into trouble in a larger engagement.
There's a limit to how much troops one could cram on a battlefield but I don't read any limits in the scenario, meaning that it could happen well beyond the mountain range.

There is no mention of the Necromongers' capital ships which double as troop carriers and deathworld weapons.
Problem is, their arrival is far from subtle and they'd be utterly toasted in space by Yu's starships. The Necroes' main ships are tough things since they can plant themselves into the ground and survive the blast from this event. But that's still not up too what Ha'taks can blast off.
So leaving those things aside, we have Khorne just dumping Necroes here and there and technically they'll be just as surprised as the Jaffa.
Or the Necroes know, by act of plot, at they must take the planet... somehow. This complete lack of preparation and the action taking place on Yu's planet gives the Jaffa the edge while leaving much less advantage to the Necromongers.

Necromongers would be fighting against Jaffa who know the woods, rivers, nearby mountains and the city.
Looking at the Necro's society and manner of attack, they aren't going to be prioritizing their targets the way a typical enemy Goa'uld likely would. Certainly they will take raw materials, new technology, and, of course, converts, but they won’t be looking to capture many of the typical strategic locations or the like for future use. They will be out to devastate any opposition, and induct converts.
It reads like the engagements will be more random than ever.
Nothing particularly special.
However, if not all Jaffa are warriors (they're, after all, "Jaffa"), this will include a large amount of young people and women. But I think sonofccn thought Jaffa as warriors.
At longer ranges, and in smaller groups or one on one at close range, I'm sure the Jaffa would generally be superior. In a sufficiently large engagement, however, as the battle degenerates into a chaotic, omni-directional melee, Jaffa discipline will lose its potency, any early advantage held by the Jaffa will begin to sway slowly back into the Nerco’s favor.
The discipline is only good enough when you can take advantage of it. I don't see anything the Necromongers will be able to gain from facing enemies with energy weapons in some huge mess of a battle.
Jaffa will keep using their longer ranged staves, which deal more damage to troops and surrounding.
Jaffa have longer range and superior firepower. They know the place better and there is no special target so it's just a question of picking one and simply shooting until the other guy drops dead.
Any Jaffa forces that advance on Necro positions will be at a serious disadvantage over those holding fortified positions, and even with Zats and Staff Cannons, I don't think the Jaffa have the means to adequately hold defensive lines against a large enough force.
They actually have. The large enough force will be matched by as many Jaffa. They still have longer ranged energy weapons and the powerful heavy staves, plus some funky nades in sufficient number to make a difference.
A Pyrrhic victory is all the Necros need. Looking at the Necros general philosophy, and thinking of one scene from The Chronicles of Riddock in particular, after eliminating a planets military resistance they, in epitomic irony, use fear of death to terrorize the surviving citizenry into converting to their cause of omnicidal death worshipers. After indoctrination and training, these new members make for surplus cannon fodder at the very least, until as said earlier, those who excel move up the ranks. With this view, I can see that a Goa'uld planet would be very tempting to the Necromongers. There’s lots of raw materials to harvest, new Naquadah technology to adopt, and after the Jaffa defenses are eliminated, all those slaves just ripe and waiting to be converted to the service of their new gods.
It's rather problematic. If the Necromongers usually aim for the army and avoid engaging citizens, they actually have to be careful about who they attack.
This is one big disadvantage right here.
Secondly, although this is not part of the plot here, you somewhat agree that they convert people in droves. That's what the movie shows anyway, meaning that conscripts have shit levels of combat experience and really are cannon fodder. Hardly the best thing in combat warfare. Mind you, all Jaffa who aren't looking like teenagers are survivors with quite enough combat experience. And they live beyond 200 years; that was at least Bra'tak's age I believe and he looked like a 60 years old dude. That's a ratio of 3.33, so even a guy who looks like he's 35 could have the combat experience of three normal humans.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by sonofccn » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:48 pm

Regarding Jaffa suppression fire:

In the grand majority of cases when an SG team was pinned down the Jaffas in question enjoyed a superority of numbers, in some cases by quite a margine, allowing them both greater endurance to combat attrition as well as the ability to overlay competing fields of fire.

Obviously in a head to head mano-e-mano match up this would not be the case. Further as the episode "The Warrior", from SG-1 season 5, shows an above average Jaffa would only hit a suspended, non moving tree trunk two out of three times at "sixty or seventy yards". Factor in battle conditions, possible reduced visibility, and any physical obstruction of the enviroment and that will likely go down further.

Limited to a semi-auto rate of fire I do not see the majority of such a hypothetical match going well for the Jaffa.

Regarding Zatnikatel:

It is not so much a question if they are "more than frequent enough" but rather how and if they are used. And Jaffa, over the greater whole, don't use the Zats frequently. At best its a back up piece, something you use when you can't use your staff weapon. Even when things close to short distances your typical Jaffa is perfectly happy to try and settle things using his staff rather than pulling out a Zat.

So yes they are a powerful weapon and should not be underestimated but we have to keep the other side in perspective as well.

Regarding Grenades:

The issue is the equivilent to a Regiment commander knowing where the one guy in a thousand is, getting word to that person and sending him where he'll do the most good inside a hectic and ever shifting battlefield. All while hoping said guy isn't killed by a Lensor team, is sent to an area which has already been overrun or the wrong place entirely due to fog of War.

Even assuming he reaches the proper target in time picking the grenade up if he gets killed requires the surronding Jaffa have sufficent tactical awareness to realize there is a grenade needing to be picked up and that they can disengage themselves from the Necromongers in order to retrieve it.

Regarding Necromonger fighters:

The ability to survive impacting a fighter not established as noticably weaker than a Death Glider I would argue is impressive.

As to how often or how valid of use such an ability would be Necromonger flight tactics appear to be simply to close as close as possible to their enemy and destroy them without concern for their own safety.

In a nutshell Necromonger fighters are simply going to fly themselves straight into Death Gliders formations who will have to either disperse, scattering them and making them easier prey, or try to get into a hectic, messy dog fight with a group who don't care and may be intentionally trying to collide with you.

Regarding Death Gliders:

We will have to agree to disagree since I don't recall the Death Glider being particularly more impressive in performance than the fighters in Chronicles of Riddick. All of them had WW2 type flight performance.

Regarding Al'keshes:

Well if you feel its justified we can simply forget the Al'keshes and make the air War a simple dog fight.

Regarding Jaffa Armor:

Off the top of my head the only guys I remember tanking human fire in the series, other than Kull warriors, were Aphosis Serpent Guards who were elite like units. Your bog Jaffa always seemed to fail quite effectively to good old lead.

I simply wouldn't put a lot of faith in the chainmail regardless if you want to call being killed by an ax plot fiat or not.

Regarding an individual Necromonger soldier's skill:

Judging from the battle scenes from Helios your rank and file Necromonger is more disciplined and determined than your bog standard Jaffa and appear well acquainted and effective with their weapons. They likely lack individual initiative, other than a general kill the non believer vibe, and are clearly viewed as a resource to be expended but then so are Jaffa.

Over all I'd call this particular comparison a wash. Neither faction truly employs a Modern Western style military ethos which values or places emphasis on the individual contribution.
Darth Spock wrote:Here is where I think the Jaffa may get into trouble in a larger engagement. The conditions of the battle put it on Yu's home world. That gives the Jaffa home field advantage, but it also puts them on the defensive. As stated, Jaffa are "experienced in combat and follow training." Looking at the Necro's society and manner of attack, they aren't going to be prioritizing their targets the way a typical enemy Goa'uld likely would. Certainly they will take raw materials, new technology, and, of course, converts, but they won’t be looking to capture many of the typical strategic locations or the like for future use. They will be out to devastate any opposition, and induct converts.
At longer ranges, and in smaller groups or one on one at close range, I'm sure the Jaffa would generally be superior. In a sufficiently large engagement, however, as the battle degenerates into a chaotic, omni-directional melee, Jaffa discipline will lose its potency, any early advantage held by the Jaffa will begin to sway slowly back into the Nerco’s favor. Any Jaffa forces that advance on Necro positions will be at a serious disadvantage over those holding fortified positions, and even with Zats and Staff Cannons, I don't think the Jaffa have the means to adequately hold defensive lines against a large enough force.
A Pyrrhic victory is all the Necros need. Looking at the Necros general philosophy, and thinking of one scene from The Chronicles of Riddock in particular, after eliminating a planets military resistance they, in epitomic irony, use fear of death to terrorize the surviving citizenry into converting to their cause of omnicidal death worshipers. After indoctrination and training, these new members make for surplus cannon fodder at the very least, until as said earlier, those who excel move up the ranks. With this view, I can see that a Goa'uld planet would be very tempting to the Necromongers. There’s lots of raw materials to harvest, new Naquadah technology to adopt, and after the Jaffa defenses are eliminated, all those slaves just ripe and waiting to be converted to the service of their new gods.
Interesting and I don't entirely disagree with your assement.

I would add through that the Jaffa appearing to have a slightly better command and control, the Necromongers rather appearing to rely on Shock and Awe and sheer numbers to brutally overwhelm their enemies, being on the defensive and having weapons like the Staff Cannon makes them, in my opinion, better able to deal and respond overall to a hectic mob rush type scenario.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:57 am

sonofccn wrote:Regarding Jaffa suppression fire:

In the grand majority of cases when an SG team was pinned down the Jaffas in question enjoyed a superority of numbers, in some cases by quite a margine, allowing them both greater endurance to combat attrition as well as the ability to overlay competing fields of fire. Obviously in a head to head mano-e-mano match up this would not be the case.
That they miss is already taken into account. They still roughly aim in the right direction and Necronmongers move in packs, so one Necromonger being missed will simply and generally translate into a fellow taken down. It's basically napoleonian tactics here, and is not limited to open areas since we've seen Necromongers behave the same way in city streets.
The staves still retain the greater firing range and overall damage. As seen in Children of the Gods, Teal'c used a staff to shoot at a DG (the DG tanked the shots btw). That while the DG was attacking from the skies. The range was definitely beyond 70 yards and this would have nothing to do with Teal'c ability to aim well since the point here is abou the weapon's observed range.
The heavier staves would be complete murder here. Greater range, greater firepower with noticeable area of effect.
Further as the episode "The Warrior", from SG-1 season 5, shows an above average Jaffa would only hit a suspended, non moving tree trunk two out of three times at "sixty or seventy yards". Factor in battle conditions, possible reduced visibility, and any physical obstruction of the enviroment and that will likely go down further.
Limited to a semi-auto rate of fire I do not see the majority of such a hypothetical match going well for the Jaffa.
These limits apply to Necromongers as well, they don't benefit from super sight, and their guns are limited to semi-auto rates of fire as well. Necromongers' guns don't even have an ironsight, nor do the Necromongers ever attempt to really aim like one would use a handgun or a rifle for an accurate shot.
Regarding Grenades:

The issue is the equivilent to a Regiment commander knowing where the one guy in a thousand is, getting word to that person and sending him where he'll do the most good inside a hectic and ever shifting battlefield. All while hoping said guy isn't killed by a Lensor team, is sent to an area which has already been overrun or the wrong place entirely due to fog of War.
If anything, the equivalent of the regiment commander would be the one carrying those, or his second would.
Even assuming he reaches the proper target in time picking the grenade up if he gets killed requires the surronding Jaffa have sufficent tactical awareness to realize there is a grenade needing to be picked up and that they can disengage themselves from the Necromongers in order to retrieve it.
Claiming that Jaffa would not have the sufficient tactical awareness to pick a rather big round grenade is really dumbing them down beyond farce. Even an ape would pick a useful stick if it would see it.
That some may be too excited or else to think about doing it is something else.
Regarding Necromonger fighters:

The ability to survive impacting a fighter not established as noticably weaker than a Death Glider I would argue is impressive.
I disagree. Those aircrafts hardly look solid at all. They're largely made of tubes, rather nimble and frail looking, sporting two large curved frontal wings.
As to how often or how valid of use such an ability would be Necromonger flight tactics appear to be simply to close as close as possible to their enemy and destroy them without concern for their own safety.

In a nutshell Necromonger fighters are simply going to fly themselves straight into Death Gliders formations who will have to either disperse, scattering them and making them easier prey, or try to get into a hectic, messy dog fight with a group who don't care and may be intentionally trying to collide with you.
DG pilots are courageous enough if needed. Observe the battle of Antartica and see how they waited the last moment to disengage to avoid crashing into F-302s.
Besides, the Helion fighters could shoot down Necromonger fighters but the amount of damage done was hardly impressive, meaning that Necromonger fighters could only survive impacts causing less damage than what Helion guns caused.
This, in the end, doesn't really speak well of the sturdiness of Helion aircrafts.

OTOH, ramming being a tactic used by Necromongers largely influences the way they'll fight in the air; it's more fiendish, but also makes their flight path more predictable by necessity.
It's hard to tell who would get the upper hand.

Also, Necromonger fighters use weapons which need to be charged before firing. That's rather terrible, and they don't seem to benefit from some special tracking system; they utterly missed a Helion fighter flying right in front over a distance which would indeed be 70 yards, funny eh?
I wish Twohy had thought these a bit more: charging weapons for guided plasma would have been very nice (like in Starfox 64) and would nicely explain the superiority and advantage of those crafts, but he seems to have suffered some brain farts.
The salvos aren't particularly fast either, actually extremely slow in comparison to the plasma cannons (heavy staves) used on DGs.
We will have to agree to disagree since I don't recall the Death Glider being particularly more impressive in performance than the fighters in Chronicles of Riddick. All of them had WW2 type flight performance.
They're similar. "Human" reflexes are what they are and both types of fighters have been used in rather classical ways.
The thing is, Death Gliders have a closed canopy and a capacity for fast reentry, submarine high speed movement and deep space travel.
How this plays out in favour of the Jaffa pilots, I'm not sure though.
Regarding Jaffa Armor:

Off the top of my head the only guys I remember tanking human fire in the series, other than Kull warriors, were Aphosis Serpent Guards who were elite like units. Your bog Jaffa always seemed to fail quite effectively to good old lead.

I simply wouldn't put a lot of faith in the chainmail regardless if you want to call being killed by an ax plot fiat or not.
Those Jaffa were not more elite than those mowed down all along the series.
This is a side point anyway. These chainmails won't offer any relevant protection against Necromonger guns.
Regarding an individual Necromonger soldier's skill:

Judging from the battle scenes from Helios your rank and file Necromonger is more disciplined and determined than your bog standard Jaffa and appear well acquainted and effective with their weapons.
There's little material to judge the discipline or determination. Jaffa are equally disciplined, obedient and determined. They believe they serve gods and it's not a rare thing that even survivors haven't even seen the System Lords in their whole entire life.
Also Necromongers don't appear more effective with their weapons, I'm not sure where you get that impression without pointing to a specific scene so I can judge by myself.
They likely lack individual initiative, other than a general kill the non believer vibe, and are clearly viewed as a resource to be expended but then so are Jaffa.
Yes, both are. Yu might treat his Jaffa bit better though.
Over all I'd call this particular comparison a wash. Neither faction truly employs a Modern Western style military ethos which values or places emphasis on the individual contribution.
Indeed, Jaffa are cannon fodder.

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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by Darth Spock » Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:01 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: SG troops immediately switched to armour penetrating rounds iirc.
Jaffa weren't imperveous, at least two died without even one sign of any damage to exposed skin.
But the plates clearly protected them well and Yu's own forces, on his own planet, ought to have equivalent armour.
The point is, this kind of armour should laugh at blades.

The viking throwing an axe at a Jaffa in the chest and killing him on Cimmeria was plot fiat for humour shock and completely failed to perpetuate the feeling of fear Jaffa were supposed to instill to low tech people.

Realistically too, chainmail isn't known for its bullet stopping value.
Which actually mean that the one Apophis' troops used was really that good.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
sonofccn wrote:Regarding Jaffa Armor:

Off the top of my head the only guys I remember tanking human fire in the series, other than Kull warriors, were Aphosis Serpent Guards who were elite like units. Your bog Jaffa always seemed to fail quite effectively to good old lead.

I simply wouldn't put a lot of faith in the chainmail regardless if you want to call being killed by an ax plot fiat or not.
Those Jaffa were not more elite than those mowed down all along the series.
This is a side point anyway. These chainmails won't offer any relevant protection against Necromonger guns.
Got a chance to review SG-1 premiere, "Children of the Gods." Yup, that some pretty impressive "scary bullet-proof bad guy" stuff going on... until the final battle, wherein we only see one Jaffa struggle his way through getting shot and keep fighting. If it had taken time for an adaptation to be made, I could buy that all Jaffa are sporting super armor, but as soon as we see the local defenses, not the personal escort accompanying a Goa'uld himself on incursions through the gate, they fall in the usual manner. Also, SG-1 used the H&K MP5A3 for almost half the series before switching to the P90, and even it realistically would not out perform the M 16s seen in the opening scene of "Children of the Gods".
Here though, I find my self in a quandary, in Stargate SG-1 S: 5 E: 18, "The Warrior", the P90 is described in real world terms, 900 rounds per minute, 50 round mag, and normal Teflon coated bullets, no super SGC exclusive Naquedah slugs here. Yet the demonstration lasts roughly 6 seconds, and hacks a big log in half. So, in the show, the weapon has a mag at least twice the size as in real life (and as their own description), and can inflict damage Myth Busters says takes a mini-gun a full minute to accomplish, and in 1/10 the time... If thats my benchmark, then I'll quietly leave and let the Wormhole X-Treme edition Jaffa enjoy their insanely easy victory...
For now though, I'm going with the idea that Apophis' personal guard are sporting elite grade armor. Also, the Viking axe isn't the only Jaffa armor failure to blades. In "The Lost City" part 2, Bra'tac and Ronan swapped stabbings IIRC. At any rate, the Necros aren't exactly dependent on blades. I had trouble finding battle scenes from the movie, not owning a copy, but from what I could tell, most used guns, though probably carried a knife or other short range weapon, and a much smaller number of them relied on heavier melee weapons, though I'd expect they would carry a pistol as well.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:So leaving those things aside, we have Khorne just dumping Necroes here and there and technically they'll be just as surprised as the Jaffa.
Or the Necroes know, by act of plot, at they must take the planet... somehow. This complete lack of preparation and the action taking place on Yu's planet gives the Jaffa the edge while leaving much less advantage to the Necromongers.
I took that simply as "plot fiat" as you say, as a means to force these two together without benefit of their capital ships. I took everything else for granted that the engagement would be "fair," otherwise, you'd have Necros dropped in a potentially critical location, say, the middle of the hangars so the Jaffa can't get to their Gliders, or, maybe the Necros suddenly find themselves in the middle of the woods, buck nekkid, trying to get soap out of their eyes because they were taking a shower when they were magically transported.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The discipline is only good enough when you can take advantage of it. I don't see anything the Necromongers will be able to gain from facing enemies with energy weapons in some huge mess of a battle.
Jaffa will keep using their longer ranged staves, which deal more damage to troops and surrounding.
Jaffa have longer range and superior firepower. They know the place better and there is no special target so it's just a question of picking one and simply shooting until the other guy drops dead.
sonofccn wrote:Regarding an individual Necromonger soldier's skill:

Judging from the battle scenes from Helios your rank and file Necromonger is more disciplined and determined than your bog standard Jaffa and appear well acquainted and effective with their weapons. They likely lack individual initiative, other than a general kill the non believer vibe, and are clearly viewed as a resource to be expended but then so are Jaffa.

Over all I'd call this particular comparison a wash. Neither faction truly employs a Modern Western style military ethos which values or places emphasis on the individual contribution.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:There's little material to judge the discipline or determination. Jaffa are equally disciplined, obedient and determined. They believe they serve gods and it's not a rare thing that even survivors haven't even seen the System Lords in their whole entire life.
Also Necromongers don't appear more effective with their weapons, I'm not sure where you get that impression without pointing to a specific scene so I can judge by myself.
My thoughts on this are that the Jaffa may be a little too disciplined. They have a philosophy and regime that works for most of their engagements, and they follow it, even if it results feeding themselves to their enemy like lambs to the slaughter. The final battle in "Children of the Gods" is a great example, with a line of claymores to thin the first wave, less than a dozen troops held off a Jaffa rush while a mass of refugees were herded through the gate, before a handful of Jaffa rushed after them meeting their demise, all for upholding the glory of their gods.
Both sides employ a kamikaze mentality, but the Necros seem to revel in the "berserker" tactics. Also, both forces deploy their troops without a care as to casualties, but the Necros do show that their campaigns are coordinated, not just throwing troops at random and letting them pick their own path. My point is that once "organized" advances and defensive lines of the Jaffa fail to wipe out their opponents and retain their cohesion, the ensuing chaos would play right into the hands of the Necro "crazies," while the Jaffa will either end up helplessly swinging their staves like at the end of the Stargate movie, or futilely trying to regain their organized edge.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:If the Necromongers usually aim for the army and avoid engaging citizens, they actually have to be careful about who they attack.
This is one big disadvantage right here.
Secondly, although this is not part of the plot here, you somewhat agree that they convert people in droves. That's what the movie shows anyway, meaning that conscripts have shit levels of combat experience and really are cannon fodder. Hardly the best thing in combat warfare. Mind you, all Jaffa who aren't looking like teenagers are survivors with quite enough combat experience. And they live beyond 200 years; that was at least Bra'tak's age I believe and he looked like a 60 years old dude. That's a ratio of 3.33, so even a guy who looks like he's 35 could have the combat experience of three normal humans.
sonofccn wrote:Interesting and I don't entirely disagree with your assement.
I would add through that the Jaffa appearing to have a slightly better command and control, the Necromongers rather appearing to rely on Shock and Awe and sheer numbers to brutally overwhelm their enemies, being on the defensive and having weapons like the Staff Cannon makes them, in my opinion, better able to deal and respond overall to a hectic mob rush type scenario.
While I assume that the battle will be taking place in a relatively localized environment, I imagine that as far as civilians go, the planet is big enough that the Necros should be able to cut bloody swaths without worrying overly about not leaving enough survivors to convert. Their willingness to plunge conquest icons into a planet to soften the target is a testament to that, and indeed, that is one "shock and awe" element of their attack that they will be sorely missing.

The Jaffa having greater experience is a plus, but I already agree that individually, Jaffa are superior to Necros, its the overall combination of each forces respective tactics in a large scale (tens of thousands or more) confrontation that gives me doubts about a Jaffa victory. Weapons like the Staff Cannon are powerful, but don't offer sufficient rate of fire to deal with masses of infantry, nor do they offer significant "splash damage." They may take down an armored vehicle, but against troops it looks about as effective as 19th century cannon, less so, as these are limited to line of sight and lack the antique's anti-infantry adaptations such as grapeshot. Really, they appear to be there mostly for intimidation, and perhaps as anti-vehicle or siege weapons. As underwhelming as the Necro's suicide bomb was, I believe it, and the mentality it represents, pose a threat to Jaffa who won't simply be able to form a firing line and comfortably wipe out their enemy without taking comparable losses, before finally having their ranks broken and thrown into disarray. In short, I believe the Necros can handle the chaos and fog of war settling over over a large engagement better than the Jaffa could.

sonofccn
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Re: Setpiece battle: Necromongers (Riddick) vs Jaffa (Starga

Post by sonofccn » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:03 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That they miss is already taken into account. They still roughly aim in the right direction and Necronmongers move in packs, so one Necromonger being missed will simply and generally translate into a fellow taken down. It's basically napoleonian tactics here, and is not limited to open areas since we've seen Necromongers behave the same way in city streets.
The staves still retain the greater firing range and overall damage. As seen in Children of the Gods, Teal'c used a staff to shoot at a DG (the DG tanked the shots btw). That while the DG was attacking from the skies. The range was definitely beyond 70 yards and this would have nothing to do with Teal'c ability to aim well since the point here is abou the weapon's observed range.
The heavier staves would be complete murder here. Greater range, greater firepower with noticeable area of effect.
1. At issue is hitting a Necromonger is far from in and of itself enough to take the fellow down what with his armor and general condition to ignore his wounds. Even a wound ultimately fatal might not incapacitate a Necromonger for the duration of a short sprint to make contact with the enemy. Not being able to reliably hit the center of mass of a Necromonger torso is, I would argue, a fairly large problem. One further complicated by the shorter lines of sight of a congested battlefield like say a city.

2. While the theoritical limitations of a staff weapon's "bolt" is not without interest due to the above I do not believe it will prove crucial or important to the battle.

3. Staff cannons are, as previously stated, quite nice yes.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:These limits apply to Necromongers as well, they don't benefit from super sight, and their guns are limited to semi-auto rates of fire as well. Necromongers' guns don't even have an ironsight, nor do the Necromongers ever attempt to really aim like one would use a handgun or a rifle for an accurate shot.
Not exactly, while obviously battlefield conditions would affect a Necromonger's performance my point was the displayed example of Jaffa accuracy was under fairly favorable conditions rather than in battle.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:If anything, the equivalent of the regiment commander would be the one carrying those, or his second would.
Which still leaves a Colonel equivalent attempting to evaluate and determine the use of a tactical weapon in the fog of an ever shifting and changing battlefield.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Claiming that Jaffa would not have the sufficient tactical awareness to pick a rather big round grenade is really dumbing them down beyond farce. Even an ape would pick a useful stick if it would see it.
That some may be too excited or else to think about doing it is something else
I am sorry if you misunderstood. My point has nothing to do with intelligence but how aware Jaffa will be of their surroundings while engaged in combat with Necromongers.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I disagree. Those aircrafts hardly look solid at all. They're largely made of tubes, rather nimble and frail looking, sporting two large curved frontal wings.
Ramming through something like the Helios fighter made from mundane Real world materials would be impressive for any Earth Fighter. There is nothing to suggest it is particularly fragile.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:DG pilots are courageous enough if needed. Observe the battle of Antartica and see how they waited the last moment to disengage to avoid crashing into F-302s.
Besides, the Helion fighters could shoot down Necromonger fighters but the amount of damage done was hardly impressive, meaning that Necromonger fighters could only survive impacts causing less damage than what Helion guns caused.
This, in the end, doesn't really speak well of the sturdiness of Helion aircrafts.

OTOH, ramming being a tactic used by Necromongers largely influences the way they'll fight in the air; it's more fiendish, but also makes their flight path more predictable by necessity.
It's hard to tell who would get the upper hand.

Also, Necromonger fighters use weapons which need to be charged before firing. That's rather terrible, and they don't seem to benefit from some special tracking system; they utterly missed a Helion fighter flying right in front over a distance which would indeed be 70 yards, funny eh?
I wish Twohy had thought these a bit more: charging weapons for guided plasma would have been very nice (like in Starfox 64) and would nicely explain the superiority and advantage of those crafts, but he seems to have suffered some brain farts.
The salvos aren't particularly fast either, actually extremely slow in comparison to the plasma cannons (heavy staves) used on DGs.
1. Courages Death Glider pilots may be but playing chicken with Necromongers is unlikely to work in their advantage.

2. It is quite possible the Necromongers simply build their fighters to withstand ramming attacks since the collision at even WWII level speed will put more stress on a fighter's frame than the typical flashy hollywood weapon effects.

3. I would disagree on predictable flight paths, the Helios battle seemed fairly chaotic to me.

4. As for weapons charging I couldn't find that on the Wiki, is this backstage information or...
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Those Jaffa were not more elite than those mowed down all along the series.
This is a side point anyway. These chainmails won't offer any relevant protection against Necromonger guns.
They have fancier helmets and are a clear minority compared to the greater Jaffa ranks. They certaintly look and act like royal guards/elite forces.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:There's little material to judge the discipline or determination. Jaffa are equally disciplined, obedient and determined. They believe they serve gods and it's not a rare thing that even survivors haven't even seen the System Lords in their whole entire life.
Also Necromongers don't appear more effective with their weapons, I'm not sure where you get that impression without pointing to a specific scene so I can judge by myself.
1.Necromongers are literal fanatics. Jaffa, while loyal, are not above jumping ship when things go bad and have at least slightly more sense of self-preservation. The fact Necromongers will form up into a phalanx and charge into enemy guns merely to get a sucicide bomber into position I think speaks volumes to the Necromongers sense of discipline and determination.

2. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I did not mean to claim they are more effective with their weapons but merely that they are effective with their weapons. That these were not gang pressed civvies merely meant to eat machine gun fire as you seemed to be implying.
Darth Spock wrote:While I assume that the battle will be taking place in a relatively localized environment, I imagine that as far as civilians go, the planet is big enough that the Necros should be able to cut bloody swaths without worrying overly about not leaving enough survivors to convert. Their willingness to plunge conquest icons into a planet to soften the target is a testament to that, and indeed, that is one "shock and awe" element of their attack that they will be sorely missing.
Well considering the Lensor squad was perfectly willing to kill Imam's wife and child I figure the Necros merely plan on recruiting those who are either lucky enough or bad ass enough to survive the "conquest".
Darth Spock wrote:The Jaffa having greater experience is a plus, but I already agree that individually, Jaffa are superior to Necros, its the overall combination of each forces respective tactics in a large scale (tens of thousands or more) confrontation that gives me doubts about a Jaffa victory. Weapons like the Staff Cannon are powerful, but don't offer sufficient rate of fire to deal with masses of infantry, nor do they offer significant "splash damage." They may take down an armored vehicle, but against troops it looks about as effective as 19th century cannon, less so, as these are limited to line of sight and lack the antique's anti-infantry adaptations such as grapeshot. Really, they appear to be there mostly for intimidation, and perhaps as anti-vehicle or siege weapons. As under whelming as the Necro's suicide bomb was, I believe it, and the mentality it represents, pose a threat to Jaffa who won't simply be able to form a firing line and comfortably wipe out their enemy without taking comparable losses, before finally having their ranks broken and thrown into disarray. In short, I believe the Necros can handle the chaos and fog of war settling over over a large engagement better than the Jaffa could
Fair enough through I would challenge against prepared, unrattled foes like the Jaffa the Necros berserker fury is just as likely to cause them to break their arm as anything. While I agree the Staff Cannon is comparable to a 19th century cannon, albeit the former should shoot faster, that still should be punching holes in the packed ranks of the Necros while the Jaffa grunts pour as much staff fire as they can making it costly for the Necros just to close to engagement range. To the point where even if they successfully overwhelm the particular hardpoint the exchange rate would firmly be in the Jaffa's favor. The Jaffa also would be able to benefit from their inherent force multipliers being able to keep more men in reserve to swing and "plug" any openings the Necros do make.

Through obviously this is dependent on the environment. At night in the city would greatly reduce the effectiveness of the Jaffa soldiers while exemplify the Necros strengths.

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