All right, I am going to get one thing out of the way right here and now: whenever I refer to The Sigma Virus, I am not referring to Sigma's virus form, as seen in X3 and possibly X2, but rather the virus named after him. Sigma and the Sigma Virus are two related but ultimately separate things, and the latter does not create a Borg-style Hive Mind of Sigmas everywhere. It might influence its infected targets, but it does not necessarily grant Sigma control.
Lucky wrote:
X3
Doppler lied, it is a major plot point.
I point to numerous instances and you reject them all. I could go so far as to quote the Official Complete Works, but those I'm tenuous about including since from what I hear, they're admit their canonicity is somewhat dubious. But here's some more quotes:
X8 (Zero's confrontration with Sigma):
Sigma: The moment your virus entered my system, the seed had been planted.
Megaman Zero 2:
Computer: (MAVERICK WARS) - The Maverick Wars was started by the Sigma virus, which terrified the world. Eventually the Maverick Wars turned into everyone misusing the power of the Cyber-elves. Thanks to X, the evil Cyber-elves have been deleted. No further information can be found.
Lucky wrote:Doppler was using mind control to remove free will from the Reploids. Maverick behavior is simply a matter of reploids not having to follow the three laws of robotics like Dr. Light era robots.
Maverick behaviour is any criminal behaviour in reploids, though what that entails ranges from game to game and reploid to reploid. But for the most part, before the Zero series, it involved violence or at least perceived violence.
As for Doppler, the reports in the manual state that the treatment was a placebo, not that he secretly took them over.
Lucky wrote:X4
There is no virus or program effecting Repliforce beyond their own programing.
Never claimed there was. One of the points I was trying to make was that the Repliforce incident would help engender a sense of distrust in reploids because that one couldn't be blamed on viruses.
Lucky wrote:X5
Sigma is a singular entity, and never possessed anyone. He is also not a computer program
This is probably going to be ignored too, but:
X5 (X playthrough):
Zero: ...I'm okay. Just a bit of a bruised ego. Anyway, where is Sigma?
X: He took off. Alia is looking for him now, but she can't pick up any readings.
Zero: He is a virus... ... he can't be seen or analyzed correctly like other data. You have to feel his evil energy. That's the only way to find him.
He also tried to possess X at the end of X3, meaning he at least believed he could at that point.
And don't you claim he's a bodiless AI? How is that not considered a computer program?
Lucky wrote:X6
The Nightmares don't cause Reploids to go maverick. It creates something completely new
I'm pretty they're considered mavericks due to the term's broad applicability and the fact that they start attacking you when seconds before they were yelling for help.
Lucky wrote:You're claiming that robots that take in information the same way humans do are absurdly prone to getting viruses that turn them into killing machines, and that the humans who build them are giving them weapons. That isn't simply foolish, it doesn't make sense.
Lots of reploids are able to find or build their own weapons and upgrade themselves. Grizzly Slash was an arms dealer. Meanwhile, these are the same humans who were willing to build New Generation Reploids even after the old ones did their rebellion, against the advise of those who had studied their history.
Lucky wrote:You don't seem to understand my point. The energy Sigma released in X5 and Nightmare in X6 weren't factors in causing Maverick behavior at any other time. Heck, they only cover a few weeks at most.
I point you to my quote earlier from Megaman Zero 2. It took the development of the Mother Elf to finally get the viruses under control.
Lucky wrote:And yet no Maverick shown is randomly destroying things. Dr. Light realized X could choose to kill humans if he wanted to, and that is why X was put through 30 years of psychological testing.
The various mavericks in X5, after their infection seem pretty willing to throw down after rambling insanely.
X5 (Zero playthrough):
(If Zero doesn't need the Energy Cartridge)
Squid Adler: HA HA HA HAAAA!! ANOTHER FISH HAS BEEN TRAPPED!! I'M A MAVERICK HUNTER! I'LL RETIRE YOU.
Remember, this is the same Squid Adler who quit the Maverick Hunters because he disliked how they were doing things.
And as Mr. Oragahn points out, in X4 in Zero's cutscene, Zero hears someone pop in, and immediately attacks him while goes in and out of laughing maniacally.
Lucky wrote:Forgive me, but unless it is about human size, the weapon tends to be absurdly underpowered in Mega Man. The missiles we see in Day of Sigma are rather sad.
That doesn't make the prospect of Mavericks using them to attack people any less terrifying. Plus, Sigma would go on to try and take over Final Weapon to exterminate all life on Earth in MMX4 and do a colony drop in MMX5.
X4:
Sigma: Hee hee hee. Repliforce are the fools this time! Now all that's left is to destroy Earth with the very weapon they made!
So it's not like Sigma was willing to stop with just testing X's potential. By X4, he's willing to destroy the Earth. And by X8, he's still looking to do it given his comments about destroying the Old World.
Lucky wrote:It would seem that X destroys the Rebel's production facilities at the start of MMX2, and that would mean that the Rebels had very little to start with.
Sigma's uprising still saw extensive damage to Abel City, and if left unchecked could cause even more damage.
Lucky wrote:Because X wouldn't be there, and Sigma would not be able to test Dr. Cain's beliefs about X.
That is a horrible line of reasoning from a moral standpoint. That basically means that Sigma is ready and willing to kill countless humans and reploids to test a theory, instead of exploring reploid potential on his own. It's a huge and murderous sense of entitlement.
Lucky wrote:I don't recall where Sigma ever stated he wanted to kill all humans?
MMX1 Manual
Cain's Journal June 4th:
"My worst nightmare has just come true. Sigma went maverick today and took most of the other hunters with him. His motives are unclear, but it seems that he "decided" that humans inferior and limiting the growth of the Reploids. For that reason, he decided that all humans should be eradicated."
Lucky wrote:And yet killing all humans is something Simga never seems to care about.
His actions in later MMX games disagree with you. At the very least, he's willing to let the world die for the sake of his pet projects, whether it's unleashing X's potential or Zero's, and talks about destroying and replacing the old world in X8, with humans being implicitly part of it. Admittedly, it includes Old Generation Reploids as well, but then again, that's hardly better, and is in fact worse. Also, in X4, he gloats about destroying the world with the weapon Repliforce built.
X8:
Sigma: "The plan to destroy the world you so love is finally coming to fruition!"
Lucky wrote:Maverick hunter X is a bare bones remake with added dialog. Most of the dialog is for characters who didn't speak in the original.
I fail to see how a detail like Dr. Cain dying in Day of Sigma effects everything else in the story-line. Dr. Cain is never shown in the original Mega Man X, and could be replaced by just about anyone in later games. Every version of the first Mega Man X1 contradicts the others a tiny bit.
It's not exactly bare-bones if it removes a prominent character, now is it? Or are you talking about level design?
Lucky wrote:X is a B-Ranked hunter while Sigma was at the top of the command structure, it is a chain of command thing, and a problem that the original Dr. Light/Dr. Wily robot masters had.
Storm Eagle's behavior is very human in that he is working with Sigma for what would appear to be blackmail or to try to be a moderating force in the organization. Not all Nazi in WWII thought killing Jews was the right thing for example.
Sigma is committing high treason, killing countless people for the sake of his demented pet project, and most of Sigma's followers don't act nearly as conflicted. Even if Storm Eagle was coerced, the rest of them weren't.
I'm less inclined to hate on Storm Eagle, his entry in the manual talks about how he tried to stop Sigma but was beaten and forced to work for him. Whether this forcing is blackmail, reprogramming, or some other factor is left unsaid.
Lucky wrote:A.I. in Mega Man range from super-intelligent to being what would be mentally impaired in humans, and we know that Armored Armadillo acts like a Dr. Light era robot in that he does his job no matter what.
Or, he's just a committed soldier who doesn't question orders no matter what. If you want limited AI, try those body recreations you fight in Sigma's fortress.
Lucky wrote:Sigma was never a virus that infected other robots. he has always been a singular entity.
The Sigma Virus is not Sigma in his virus form, but rather a virus named after Sigma. Sigma himself has been referred to as a virus several times.
Lucky wrote:Mega Man X wrote: Sigma: You have won a temporary victory, X! What you destroyed was only a temporary body -- My spirit remains intact. In time I will find other bodies strong enough to do my bidding and I will return. I shall see you soon, X. Very soon...
And in X2 and X3, we see some more of that bodiless AI. Whether this is what he's always been or a new development is left to our speculations.
Lucky wrote:It is actually very similar to what Vega/M.Bison is.
Please refrain from having long quotes from other games. I am not here to discuss Street Fighter.
Lucky wrote:I would suggest you check what a sociopath is a bit more carefully., but that doesn't really matter for this topic.
Psychopath, sociopath, sadist, whatever, he was a mean son of a bitch who liked hurting people, and Sigma let him do it with impunity.
Lucky wrote:Spark mandril thinks Sigma is right as if he had a philosophical discussion with sigma
Maverick Hunter X wrote: Normal Mode
Spark Mandrill: X... You showed up.
X: Spark Mandrill. Do us both a favor and surrender peacefully.
Spark Mandrill: I don't think so, X. Oppose me and I'll crush you!
X: Sounds like you've gone Maverick. Your time has come, Spark Mandrill!
Spark Mandrill: I'm not the smartest guy around, X. But I have a feeling that Sigma is right.
Free Play
Spark Mandrill: Do you think Commander Sigma is insane, X?
X: He's no commander. Not anymore. He's nothing but a Maverick now!
Spark Mandrill: Now, X... You never thought that maybe Sigma was right and you were wrong?
X: ...
Spark Mandrill: I don't like thinking either... Maybe we can find the answer together... In battle!
He seems to be an idiot, but Sigma seems to have given him a good enough argument as to why he should follow Sigma.
Convincing a slow-witted idiot that what you're doing is right is not that great an accomplishment. Note Spark Mandrill doesn't try to repeat any of those arguments to X and just attacks him. Meanwhile, a guy like Storm Eagle needed coercion.
Lucky wrote:Maverick Hunter X wrote:Normal mode
X: Your antics stop here, Launch Octopus!
Launch Octopus: I only take orders from Sigma. There's no way I'll let you boss me around!
X: Face it... You've gone Maverick!
Launch Octopus: Maverick? How dare you call my artistic battle style by that name!
Free Play
X: Launch Octopus... How could you do something like this?
Launch Octopus: I am an artist, you see, X. An artist of underwater combat! But no one has recognized that fact. Not until now.
X: But Sigma recognizes that?
Launch Octopus: That's right. And now I'm fighting to create an entire world that does, too! This is a very important battle for me.
Launch Octopus is an ax crazy narcissist.
Wonderful. The kind of person who doesn't need convincing/reprogramming to join Sigma's rebellion, people. At least while he was a Maverick Hunter, he kept that kind of crazy out of the public eye.
Lucky wrote:Read or watch the ending of the first mega man X game. Sigma survives as an A.I. or a ghost in a computer, and plans to build a new body
And later he's either become a virus (as per the definitions of the X series), or he develops into one.
Lucky wrote:Dr. Doppler built an easily exploitable weakness into Sigma's otherwise indestructible body.
Easily? It's one of the harder boss battles in the series if you don't have the Z-Sabre. You might as well claim all of Sigma's final forms as having "easily exploitable weaknesses". And considering Doppler mentions he doesn't think Sigma occupied it yet, Sigma might not have had time to download his consciousness properly into the thing, and had to slot his vulnerable head into it prematurely.
Lucky wrote:Dr. Doppler just happened to have a virus that he believed would destroy Sigma's programing.
He had an
anti-virus, there's a difference (he calls it a vaccine when he sacrifices himself). His most famous work (prior to coming out as a Maverick) was reploid anti-virus technology. The thing he/Zero used on Sigma was likely an extension of his life's work. He expected it to work because Sigma had become a virus, and it was designed to counter the Sigma Virus, so he likely concluded that it would also work on Sigma's virus form.
And before you go "Doppler lies" again, consider how the best lies contain an element of truth in them.
Lucky wrote:Dr. Doppler lied about the cause of Mavericks as Mavericks predate Zero's release, and Sigma going bad. Maverick behavior is explained in the intro to the first Mega Man X game.
While yes, Mavericks did exist before Zero's release (free-willed and glitched Mavericks), the numbers shot up tremendously after viruses were involved. Sigma managed to infect much of the world after the colony drop in particular.
Lucky wrote:In the end Dr. Doppler lies a lot, and most if not all believe his B.S..
He must be really good at it, seeing as how viruses were believed to be a primary factor in Maverick behaviour until roughly 100 years before the Zero series, when the Mother Elf was used to cure them. At the very least, if he lied about viruses, he lied about something that turned out to be true.
"I told them disease is caused by tiny little organisms. Can you believe those suckers fell for it?"
Lucky wrote:Doppler lies, or has no idea as to what he is talking about. This is a major plot point.
Considering the number of times viruses are mentioned in the games, the sequel series, and supplemental material, then if he was lying, he picked one that happened to be true.
Lucky wrote:Sigma is a singular entity, and can only exist in one place at a time.
You're confusing Sigma's virus form with the Sigma Virus, which I have mentioned, are separate things.
Lucky wrote:All Sigma is ever shown doing is talking. Those who have been changed by Sigma or Doppler were physically altered.
Megaman X5 disagrees with you, and so does the Zero series.
Lucky wrote:Mavericks existed before Zero's release.
Not in the same quantities.
Lucky wrote:Dr. Light clearly stated that it is a reploid's ability of free will that is the reason for Mavericks in the first Mega man X game.
And then someone else came along, built a robot powered by evil energy, and sent it into the future after X to destroy him, in all likelihood derailing most if not all of Dr. Light's intentions. Given how many times viruses are mentioned, in later games they might have intentionally retconned things so viruses became the most common source of mavericks.
Lucky wrote:DThe ability to rebel is part of the free will Dr. Light built into X and by default all Reploids.
Yes , it also means Reploids can choose to murder humans or other reploids for fun.
From X8:
(After the final story scene, a message from the late Dr. Thomas Light is shown.
Humans and robots living in harmony and equality. That was my only wish.
- Dr. Thomas Light
(Scene fades.)
He wanted them to be able to choose, yes. But he wanted them to, when presented with the choice, choose NOT to.
Lucky wrote:Doppler lies.
Stop repeating that every time Doppler's name is mentioned. Whether or not he lied is irrelevant. He was still afforded enough freedom to do his scientific work, and in recognition of that scientific work, he had a city named after him.
Meanwhile, in the Maverick Hunter X narration, it mentions how robot society grew and prospered. Doesn't really sound like slavery to me.
Maverick Hunter X:
Narrator: The age of humankind and robots working and living together had begun.
Narrator: As robot society spread and prospered, there was in increase in criminal incidents involving Reploids.
Lucky wrote:People expect Reploids to do as they are told, and not say "screw you idiot".
"Stop destroying our cities and killing people!" "No!"
There's a difference between refusing to do something because you disagree with the order, and refusing to stop murdering people.
Also, as a military, Repliforce doesn't really get to bitch about not obeying orders. That's the deal when you sign up. When the higher ups in the government that you work for tell you to cut the crap, failing to do so is a crime. And don't give me crap about them being a slave army. We know Iris and Dragoon were able to switch between the MH and Repliforce without much trouble, and there are instances of Maverick Hunters at least leaving the organization or at least the fighting (like X and Squid Adler). The Repliforce commanders stayed because they were loyal to their superiors and they probably liked the work, not because they were forced into it.
Lucky wrote:The Colonel behaves as if he feels he can not be sure he can trust X/Zero/Maverick Hunters, and X/Zero's behavior is needlessly hostile and antagonistic as if they are trying to start a fight.
X and Zero just witnessed the fall of Sky Lagoon, Repliforce were the most likely suspects, and nothing they said seemed all that unreasonable unless you buy into Colonel's dogmatic view of how soldiers are supposed to act. The closest to a threat they make is point out how Repliforce will be considered Mavericks if they leave, but that's more them warning them than them implying they're going to use some sort of personal influence to force the issue. Meanwhile, before the accusations, he acts like he and Zero at least are old friends.
Lucky wrote: And there is no evidence of this in any of the games.
They refuse to obey orders even though soldiers are supposed to obey orders (within reason of course). They start a coup because they'd rather fight and die than see their pride get wounded. They stand accused of destroying a city and what do they do? Occupy multiple cities and destroy a different city! All while building a giant kill cannon in space, and not properly securing it so that a hostile third party couldn't take it over.
I think "ineffective and potentially dangerous" is accurate unless you want to be pedantic about the use of the word "potentially".
Lucky wrote:If true then the same can be said about the Maverick hunters.
Considering the Repliforce was created to match the
success of the Maverick Hunters v3, and if the effectiveness of the current iteration of the Maverick Hunters was really so low, then it must say something about Repliforce
that they failed to live up to even those low standards.
And at least, when Maverick Hunters go rogue and destroy cities, the Hunters in question are declared rogue and the rest of the organization try to deal with them. When Repliforce is merely accused of destroying a city, they refuse to do anything to prove their innocence, then when that insubordination is not tolerated, they go and destroy a city on their own.
Lucky wrote:The only known field agents of the Maverick hunters during X3 are Zero and X.
So? They recalled all the other Maverick Hunters in the field during Doppler's attack. Meanwhile, we have nothing on the existence of Repliforce at this juncture.
Lucky wrote:Mega man X 7 wrote: Narrator: Sometime in the 22nd century... Thanks to the Reploids, even the most devastated regions were set back on the road to recovery. But crimes perpetrated by "Mavericks" were on the rise. The "Maverick Hunters" was the official organization that responded to incidents involving Mavericks.
(An image of X is shown.)
Narrator: One of the veteran members, X, began having second thoughts about the group's forceful methods. He removed himself from the front lines, and instead worked to achieve more peaceful solutions.
X: Why must Reploids fight one another? I've had enough violence.
Narrator: With the Maverick Hunters crippled by X's retirement, an underground organization filled the vacuum. And thus, Red Alert, the illegal band of bounty hunters that pursued Mavericks, was born. Soon, there was not a single Reploid who had not heard of Red Alert and its charismatic leader, Red. One day, a young Reploid, and key Member of Red Aert, made the decision to leave the group. This decision would change destiny itself.
And yet, this does not prove the existence of Repliforce prior to MMXtreme 2, which takes place after X3. Meanwhile, X is said to have put down Sigma's rebellion in X1 almost by himself.
MMX2 Manual:
"Known and Mega Man X, this same reploid had been primarily responsible for the elimination of the threat six months ago."
Meanwhile, X7 chronologically takes place after the events of X5, which saw most of the Maverick Hunters infected. They may have simply not been able to rebuild after the blow they took this time. Adding some admitted speculation, but X leaving the Maverick Hunters might be like that scene in Spiderman 2, where Peter's depowerment and hiatus from being Spiderman results in crime increasing 75%. X did a huge amount of the legwork in about 6 major Maverick uprisings, not counting the portables. He might have helped keep Maverick activity down just by reputation alone.
Lucky wrote:MMX1/2 Sigma guts the the Maverick Hunters
He gutted them in the first game. By the second one:
X2:
Narrator: It has been 6 months since the destruction of (Sigma) and little has changed. The Maverick revolt started by Sigma has ended, but Mega Man X and the new generation of Maverick Hunters have yet to destroy all of Sigma's followers.
The Maverick Hunters had rebuilt sufficiently that they had more Maverick Hunters, and I point to my quote above about X doing most of the work.
So, rather than relying on some external army, X more or less did it by himself.
Lucky wrote:MMX3 Doppler attacks and the only Hunters we see are X, Zero, and one traitor.
The number of Repliforce troops we see, hear about and imply is 0, while other Hunters are at least alluded to.
X3:
Maverick Hunter HQ: This is the Headquarters of Maverick Hunter. We are under attack from the Doppler force. All units return to base immediately and return fire.
Lucky wrote:MMX4 The only field agents we see in action against all of Repliforce are X and Zero.
Game logic. X and Zero may just be so bad ass they leave all the others in the dust. Admittedly, this is a weakness of the games.
Lucky wrote:It even seems that Jet Stingray even attacks the city the Maverick Hunter base is, and all they send is X or Zero on a jet bike.
What? What proof do you have that it was the city Maverick Hunter HQ was at? They could just have teleported in with the Jet Bike.
Lucky wrote:MMX5 there is a global threat, and all the Maverick Hunters send are X or Zero to retrieve eight vital items one at a time.
That's because that's all they had. The rest of the Maverick Hunters were either infected, or too weak to stand a chance against the Mavericks.
Signas: Under the influence of the Sigma Virus, a lot of Maverick Hunters have become Mavericks, and only a few hunters remain normal. Let's join forces with the rest of our brothers and complete the Enigma!
Later, at Signas' briefing:
Signas: We only have 16 hours left before the collision! We have to upgrade the Enigma before then. There are 4 Mavericks that have the devices required to enhance the Enigma. Grizzly Slash, a weapons broker. He has a Crystal Ball. Duff McWhalen, he lives in the ocean. We will have access to Hydrogen if we can secure the ocean. Squid Adler, an Ex-Mavericks Hunter. He has an Energy Cart. Izzy Glow, a Doctor of Engineering. He has a Laser Device. There are 4 other Mavericks but these 4 Mavericks are the only ones who have the devices to upgrade the Enigma. X, Zero... You are the only Maverick Hunters that can match these Mavericks. Split up so you can gather the devices! Prepare your equipment and fulfill your mission!
Lucky wrote:MMX6 takes place possibly hours after X5.
X6
Narrator: Three weeks ago... The Space Colony "Eurasia" was taken over by Sigma.
And considering most of the Maverick Hunters were infected in X5, or were too weak to fight against the threats, X was pretty much the only guy they could send who could challenge the Nightmare Investigators.
Plus, we do see a couple of Maverick Hunter field agents in the intro stage, they tell you about the opening boss.
Lucky wrote:MMX7 X leaving active duty cripples the Maverick Hunters in a time when raw numbers would matter more them raw power.
I refer you to my depleted Maverick Hunter theory from X5 from earlier, as well as my Spider Man 2 theory.
Lucky wrote:Someone other then the Maverick Hunters had to be fighting Dr. Doppler's army during X and Zero's mission to Doppler Town as the Maverick Hunters were gutted as part of Doppler's first move.
They hit Maverick Hunter headquarters, but not every Maverick Hunter was in the base at the time when Doppler's forces hit. They could have been doing the offscreen grunt work. Zero spends most of his time at MH base.
X3:
Maverick Hunter HQ: This is the Headquarters of Maverick Hunter. We are under attack from the Doppler force. All units return to base immediately and return fire.
Zero: Looks like we've swept most of the enemies out of here. I'll go back and check on headquarters. Call me if you need me. See you later, X.
Meanwhile, we still don't have any proof that Repliforce even existed at this point. The earliest chronological mentioning of Repliforce (or Reploid Force) was Megaman Xtreme 2, which near as I can tell, was after X3. Even assuming Doppler's forces were handled by another military and not just by the PCs, they might have involved a non-purely reploid army.
Lucky wrote:It would not make sense for the General to talk to Sigma after the events of X1, X2, or X3.
I had assumed that it took place just before X4 time due to Sigma having a scythe, which is his first stage boss form in X4.
Lucky wrote: From Mega Maqn X7 and Day of Sigma. Mega Man X7 show Axle kill some reploid criminals, and they seem to be dealing in rather mundane stuff that you might find a human criminal deal in. Xand Zero seem more like S.W.A.T. then standard police.
So... Axl killing some criminals while still a member of Red Alert is proof that the Maverick Hunters are a civilian police force? Even though Axl hadn't yet joined the Maverick Hunters by this point?
Axl:
"I guess you've heard of Red Alert?"
Also:
Narrator:
"The 'Maverick Hunters' was the official organization that responded to incidents involving Mavericks.
So, given the MH's involvement in quelling pretty much every major uprising, they're the ones to deal with Maverick behaviour from the genocidal nutcases to "mere" organized crime. They have different units to deal with different things.
Lucky wrote: Why is Double stated to be a loyal Maverick Hunter created by Dr. Cain, and yet the Maverick Hunters don't know what he can do, and he is one of Sigma's agents in the game? The information in the manual is not 100% correct for one reason or another.
The fluff text is written from an in-universe perspective. Any inaccuracies can be attributed to the characters writing it based on their knowledge. Yes, Double is a spy, but I'm guessing whatever allowed him to be a killing machine as opposed to a fat bumbler wasn't part of his original design specs, and that whoever modified him/replaced him did a very good job of hiding this.
Lucky wrote:Again, the Colonel was being perfectly reasonable while X/Zero were acting all mavericky trying to start a fight for no reason. The Colonel was simply making it clear that X/Zero was out of line and he would defend himself. Given who the Colonel's sister is X and Zero should have been more polite instead of living up to their reputation as a bunch of thugs.
Trying to start a fight? They were talking! X didn't point his arm cannon at Colonel nor did Zero have his blade drawn. And they tried to warn Colonel against taking a course of action that could have them labelled Mavericks, and Colonel responded he'd rather fight a war than be dishonoured according to their messed up definitions of honour. And Colonel never said anything about the Maverick Hunters being out of line. All he did was talk about his pride. They're the ones trying to talk Colonel down, not the other way around.
Lucky wrote:You'll notice that X/Zero agree that there are other groups besides Repliforce who have the kinds of weapons used, and they just let him go.
X gives a slight comment that could be interpreted that another such group exists (the conversation point doesn't come up with Zero), Repliforce was still the most likely suspect, and Colonel just teleports off.
Lucky wrote:Why, the Colonel told X/Zero why he was there, both parties knew of groups other then Repliforce who could have caused the event, and the Colonel stated Repliforce was not operating in the area.
Yes, Colonel says why he's there. X doesn't contradict Colonel's comment that the army responsible wasn't Repliforce, but they're still the most likely suspects since that's who was mentioned in X/Zero's mission briefing. And yes, Colonel stated that Repliforce was not operating in the area except to save Colonel's sister, but given how reploids do have a history of being subverted (whether it's by those viruses you claim don't exist, or by reprogramming), the MH would need to investigate to find out whether or not the Colonel is lying, or someone under his command might have gone renegade, or some third party might have stolen the equipment to implicate Repliforce, or it had nothing to do with Repliforce.
Lucky wrote:In response to the helpful and polite Colonel, X/Zero start making absurd demands and threatening the Colonel and Repliforce for no reason as if X/Zero had gone maverick.
They never threaten Colonel. They warn Colonel that Repliforce would be considered Maverick if they don't cooperate, but that's more like an officer telling the most likely suspect if they flee the crime scene, they'll be considered a criminal. And in response, Repliforce essentially said "bring it on", instead of trying to talk down X and Zero himself, then runs off.
Lucky wrote: Really, what do they expect The Colonel to do, give them his head? The Colonel seems to have weapons built into every part of his body save his head from
He only ever uses his sword to attack, whether it's in the fights or the cut scenes. You're thinking of General, who was not present.
Lucky wrote:Guarding the weapons. There was no sign that anything was being built.
There was that eye-looking thing in Frost Walrus's room. It looked like it was still under construction.
The gun-looking thing in Web Spider may have already been completed by the time X/Zero got there, though I'll admit there's not enough information to make a call on that one. In either case, weapons are there, and from a Maverick Hunter perspective, probably going to be used on them.
Meanwhile, they did build something:
(X playthrough)
Sigma: Hee hee hee. Repliforce are the fools this time! Now all that's left is to destroy Earth with the very weapon they made!
i.e.: That giant, heavily-armed space station with enough firepower to at the least endanger the Earth.
Lucky wrote:Shame that he was never shown attacking anything.
There's a city below, and considering Repliforce was described as having occupied several cities, they may have already established air superiority over the cowed city and thus didn't need to.
Lucky wrote:Shame that Double was one of Sigma's agents, and therefore calls into question all the information we get from the Maverick Hunters.
Iris is a experienced former Navigator given her involvement in Megaman Xtreme 2's Erasure Incident, and despite having close ties to both Zero and Colonel, doesn't dispute any of Repliforce's actions, and she even personally informs Zero about her brother's coup, calling it a coup to boot.
Lucky wrote:Given the city in question seems to be where the Maverick Hunter base is(they chased Jet Stingray down on jet bikes), I doubt it was destroyed.
Teleportation is a thing in this universe, and moving a single jetbike isn't exactly a fleet of ships. Megaman X3 has Vile teleport in on a large Ride Armor so you probably could teleport on a Ride Chaser and start moving.
Lucky wrote:Really, then why wasn't Repliforce using its weapons?
It's a supply train. Presumably, they were moving them to where they felt they needed them.
Lucky wrote:Why wasn't Repliforce attacking the Maverick Hunters? We see a bunch of Replioids just standing around talking as if nothing is going on(only to be killed by Double).
Ah yes, a frontal assault on the only military that poses a threat to you, without any inside men, at a time where they managed to rebuild sufficiently that your organization was created to match
their success, and your primary goal is to withdraw from the planet. I think Repliforce are a bunch of out-of-control idiots, but I don't think they're that dumb.
Plus, those guys futzing around are doing so after most of Repliforce had left for space.
Lucky wrote:They were double agents working for Sigma just like Double. Their job was to make Repliforce look bad. Had the maverick hunters been competent at their job, X4 would have been about helping the Colonel and General root out Sigma's agents,
And if Repliforce wasn't so goddamn obstinate, maybe they would have let the Maverick Hunters do their investigation to find out about them. Instead, they stonewalled them, and considering they were already under heavy scrutiny, their insubordination was likely seen as an admission of guilt for Sky Lagoon. Furthermore, if Sigma's agents really were working for Repliforce, wouldn't they be doing as much as possible to sour Repliforce's name while Repliforce was stonewalling the Maverick Hunters in their investigation, not to mention doing everything they could to avoid getting caught? Your arguments seem to expect the Maverick Hunters to pull evidence out of thin air via psychic means since they're not allowed to investigate the most likely suspects, and then trashing them because they don't.
Edit: Oh, and that investigation you claim they should have done... may have uncovered General's high level meetings with a guy advocating armed revolution... and his subsequent failure to do anything about it.
Lucky wrote:but the Maverick Hunters
X4 wrote:Quotes from MMX4, MMX5, and MMX7
aren't known for being diplomatic.
Neither are the Mavericks. X tries multiple times to get them to surrender peacefully, and gets shot at for his efforts.
Maverick Hunter X:
X: Spark Mandrill. Do us both a favor and surrender peacefully.
Spark Mandrill: I don't think so, X. Oppose me and I'll crush you!
X: You don't need to take orders from someone like Sigma! He's insane! Open your eyes, Armored Armadillo!
Armored Armadillo: Whether he's insane or not... It's not my place to judge him. I must obey!
X: Kuwanger... I don't want to fight an old friend like you.
Boomerang Kuwanger: You don't want to fight? Well, isn't this interesting? You're a Maverick Hunter... And Maverick Hunters are Reploids designed for fighting.
Lucky wrote:What you are suggest is that the The Maverick Hunters don't give new recruits physicals, and that Dr. Cain was curupted by Sigma, but neither makes sense.
No, I'm suggesting he got combat upgrades. They might have been done after Double got his physical (possibly even just before he left to kill X on Final Weapon), or the upgrades were so well hidden that they escaped notice.
Lucky wrote:That doesn't really change the fact that there are almost no humans featured in the Mega man series until MMZ4.
You're the one who brought up this up. And if you want to get pedantic, you can see a few in the Maverick Hunter X cutscenes, mostly of humans running for their lives.
Lucky wrote:Sigma is not a virus at any time during the X series. It is like calling Cyber-Elves Viruses.
Then why is he referred to as a virus in-setting, even after Doppler was gone? And don't say "Doppler lies", because Zero explicitly calls him one in X5.
X5:
Zero: He is a virus... ... he can't be seen or analyzed correctly like other data. You have to feel his evil energy. That's the only way to find him.
Also, the Sigma Virus is not Sigma. It's a virus named after (and possibly derived from) Sigma.
Lucky wrote:And corrupting someone does not require viruses or mind control.
But when they constantly refer to it as such, I'm going with Occam's Razor.
Lucky wrote:I have checked the manual. The manual seems to be unreliable to me. It's like it the story line in the game was changed after it was written, or they purposely put in wrong information so as to not plot twists in the game.
I take the manuals as in-universe fluff. They're not written with an omniscient narrator perspective. I'm guessing they managed to independently verify the existence of viruses, regardless of Doppler. That said, the X5 manual says "after centuries of fighting the Reploid Wars" but it still takes place in 21XX, so I'm going to say someone meant to use the word "years", or left out the words "what felt like" and flubbed it.
Lucky wrote:http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Evil_Energy
Zero, being a Wily creation, would be designed to basically eat evil energy, and thereby not go insane
X, being a Light creation, would be designed be immune to the effects of evil energy.
It's rather sad that it seems so much information was lost between the time X was sealed and X was awakened.
What is your point? I was claiming that most reploids were infected despite your claim that a large number weren't.
Lucky wrote:They are using the word virus to describe something that in many ways acts like a cyber-elf, and cyber-elves are souls.
It's funny you should say that. I've been avoiding using stuff I've heard about from the Official Complete Works books due to how unsure I am regarding their canonicity, but from what I hear from the Zero book, the Mother Elf at least was derived from the anti-bodies to the Maverick Virus in Zero's programming, so it makes sense they're closely related.
Alternatively, Cyber-Elves only superficially resemble what's going on, the way birds, bugs, and planes all fly, but in different ways. Cyber-Elves for the most part die when used, but Nightmare Viruses can leave their host after death.
X6:
Alia: But I'll tell you the real threat of the Nightmare. The Nightmare phenomena... An infected Reploid gets out of order... By inputting certain code, in fact, you can manipulate the Reploid freely. The real purpose of the Nightmare is... not to ruin Reploids, but to control Reploids... Finally: When the virus rewrites his system, the Reploid sometimes dies.
A normal virus dies with its host. The Nightmare is so strong, the virus can survive after the Reploid dies. On the other hand, we don't need a special vaccine to damage it, since the energy is so strong. Deleting them may be easier than Sigma...
Or Cyber-Elves were created based on MMX virus technology, similar to the way viruses are used in gene therapy.
Doesn't change the fact that "Virus" is the in-universe terminology.
Lucky wrote:Here is the problem with claiming that maverick behavior is caused by anything connected to Zero:
1) The Maverick Hunters pre-date Zero's release.
Doesn't change anything. Free-willed and glitched (i.e.: Reploids with malfunctioning specs) Mavericks were still a concern, but it wasn't until Zero got out that things started getting particularly bad, and if the capsule Zero also contained the virus, it could have leaked it to Reploids and mechaniloids that wandered nearby.
Lucky wrote:2) Sigma was a normal Reploid until the end of X1 where he becomes a bodiless A.I. in a computer.
Depends on your definition of "normal", since X8 has him comment about being infected by Zero.
X8 (Zero's confrontration with Sigma):
Sigma: The moment your virus entered my system, the seed had been planted.
Lucky wrote:3) The Zero virus and Nightmare virus do not exist until X 5 and X6
The Sigma Virus is a different virus, and that was around since at least X3, and likely before that.
Meanwhile, I never claimed whatever Zero had spread quickly. The Sigma Virus is what's used to get mass-infections.
Lucky wrote:4) All Sigma did was verbally echo the General's concerns about the Maverick Hunter's questionable tactics and behavior. Fears that have basis in reality.
And I'm pointing out that the Repliforce's complete mishandling of the situation did not help things one bit.
Also:
X4:
Zero: General!
General: ... Zero... I was... wrong. Sigma... he blinded me to the truth...
So, General mentions how Sigma blinded him to the truth, meaning while the fears might have had some basis in reality, he himself had a great deal of responsibility on how things played out.
Mega Man X5 wrote: Grizzly Slash: Zero! Seeing you re-opens old wounds...??Zero: You should have that looked after. I don't have time for small talk. Give me the Crystal Ball...??Grizzly Slash: Why don't you do what you usually do, and force me to? You used to be a Maverick, right? That's what I heard. And, you destroyed Sigma, didn't you???Zero: What, that old story...? If you dare to try and fight me, then I accept your challenge anytime, anywhere.??Grizzly Slash: Hunters and Sigma are very similar. Very aggressive and overconfident.??Zero: What? We're nothing like that scum!??Grizzly Slash: Oh yes, you are... I'm just an arms dealer... But you... You destroy anyone who stands against you. Now I'm going to make you pay for what you did to me, Maverick Hunter!
Mega Man X7 wrote: Narrator: One of the veteran members, X, began having second thoughts about the group's forceful methods. He removed himself from the front lines, and instead worked to achieve more peaceful solutions.
The Mavericks don't exactly engage in diplomacy themselves.
Admittedly, in Day of Sigma, Zero admits that the recruitment process isn't flawless.
MHX:
Zero: Vile... Looks like he must have caused a ruckus again. I'm afraid for every kind and sensitive hunter like you, X, there always seems to be a borderline Maverick rabblerouser like Vile out there.
Lucky wrote:You can do the same thing to humans in the real world. How else do you get normal people to blow themselves up?
What the copy of Sigma that Gate created did was alter Red Alert's hardware and software, but even then Sigma could not really control Red. It is kind of like the old tails of making deals with demons for power.
Considering the turnover rate in getting reprogrammed Reploids to do that stuff, it comes across as being fairly easy if you know what you're doing. Dr. Weil managed to subvert the entire 8 Gentle Judges in fairly short order.
Lucky wrote:A reploid can choose to disobey orders, and this is a design feature rather then a flaw in their programing. It means that a reploid can engage in criminal(maverick) activity if it wants to for some reason just like a human can. Your logic is faulty as it equally applies to humans.
Humans in general don't cause nearly as much damage as the Mavericks do. X5 doesn't take place that long after the first creation of Reploids, and they're already trying to bring about the end of the world.
At the very least, all the Maverick uprisings are never done alongside humans, where unemployment/other social ills has caused misery sufficient to get everyone on board the riot train. It's always an "Us Versus Them" thing.
Lucky wrote:Why build large numbers of reploids at all? Building a superhuman slave/survent race is just asking for trouble, and Dr.Light era A.I. are more then up to the task of handling any job we see in the entire Mega Man series
Then we wouldn't have a game. Besides, I never claimed humans really thought things through in this universe. And Reploids were intended to be partners, not slaves/servants.
Lucky wrote:I'm saying that the Maverick Hunters have a very poor track record.
They've still managed to put down more Maverick uprisings than any other organization on record.
Lucky wrote:You're confusing the S.W.A.T. type guys like Zero with the majority of the Maverick hunter
A large chunk of the stuff Sigma had in the first game was from the Maverick Hunters, and the Maverick Hunter X manual had the Mavericks deployed in the South Pole (Chill Penguin), Middle East (Flame Mammoth), jungle (Sting Chameleon) and sea (Launch Octopus). If anything, you might argue that the different units handle different responsibilities, so there are police force-type guys and there are more army-esque guys. X was in the 17th Battalion, Chill Penguin was in the 13th Polar Battalion, Flame Mammoth the 4th Land Battalion, Armored Armadillo the 8th Armoured Battalion, Storm Eagle the 7th Air Squadron, Sting Chameleon the 9th Special Battalion, and Launch Octopus the 6th Armada.
Lucky wrote:They were also raised by Sigma from birth. YOu have a nature VS nurture thing going on. Remember, Axle is the prototype that Lumine was based on.
Lumine mentions that prototypes like Axl don't have the specs to go nuts like they did.
X8:
Lumine: The copy chips we new generation Reploids possess... They were derived from data from hundreds of old model Reploids. That means, of course, that Sigma was also included in the mix. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
Axl: Copy chip? Sigma? That means that I'll go nuts like he did?
Lumine: Sorry, but prototypes like you don't have the specs to cause something like that.
Lucky wrote:Doppler used mind control, and the city was made by reploids I thought?
Regardless, nobody minded that he built the thing. It was described as a Utopia until Doppler did his uprising.
Lucky wrote:Manuals are of questionable accuracy, and given the fact we seemingly never see a human working would imply that reploids are accepted so long as they do as they are told.
No, they are accepted as long as they're not dangerous.
Lucky wrote:I don't see where it is stated any reploid joined Repliforce. they all seem to be purpose built.
Magma Dragoon post-battle speech X version:
Dragoon: ... Always... wanted... to fight... you. ... Then... he... appeared... and...
X: He appeared? Who?!
Dragoon: He told me to work for Repliforce. To goad you into fighting...
Magma Dragoon post-battle speech Zero verison:
Dragoon: ... I... wanted... to... defeat... you... Then .. he... appeared...
Zero: He? Who!?
Dragoon: ... He... told me... he'd give me power. ... only if I worked... for Repliforce.
Despite originally being a Maverick Hunter, Dragoon worked for Repliforce at some point.
Meanwhile, you don't have any quotes from the games Repliforce appear in that any of them were built to their role.
Lucky wrote:There are black market weapons dealers like Grizzly Slash, and those mercenaries all seem to be mavericks.
Red Alert wasn't considered a Maverick group until they went Maverick.
Lucky wrote:It doesn't matter when Neige is giving her monolog. She is talking about the first Reploids Dr. Cain made, Sigma's rebellion, Repliforce, etc.
And yet, she's never actually witnessed these events, and the monologue features Omega prominently while she's doing so.
Lucky wrote:YOu're ignoring Neiges monolog about how reploids were slaves during the X series.
She uses the term "partners" to describe their relationship as well, and the only comment about Reploids being forced to do anything contradicts what happened with X and Squid Adler, both Maverick Hunters who left the organization at various points (yes, Squid Adler was hunted down at one point, but that was more the Maverick Virus corrupting his systems).
Lucky wrote:When violence is the only tool available to fix a problem it will be the first tool used.
The Maverick Hunter X narrator mentions how robot society grew and prospered.
Lucky wrote:No, that was Mega man Zero.
I was referring to Gate's creations getting screwed over, but then again, going through the script, Alia mentions how he planned to get revenge on low Reploids who couldn't appreciate his ability, so that was less humans screwing him over and more other Reploids.
Lucky wrote:Repliforce never interfered with an investigation. There was no investigation on the part of the Maverick hunters.
Because Repliforce stonewalled them.
Lucky wrote:We don't know who Repliforce reported to, but it certainly was not X or Zero, and X and Zero are the only ones we see ordering Repliforce around.
The Maverick Hunters are the primary anti-Maverick force in the world. When Maverick activity is involved, they're the ones who get dispatched. The Sky Lagoon investigation was a Maverick Hunter operation, while Repliforce was only there on personal business.
X4 (X's story):
X: Has the Repliforce been occupying this area?
Colonel: What are you talking about?! I only came to save my sister.
A noble goal to be sure, and in Zero's version, offers to help afterwards, but X and Zero can't afford to trust Colonel at this point, seeing as how they just witnessed Repliforce/their equipment destroy a city.
Lucky wrote:The Maverick Hunters make a lot of absurd claims about Repliforce that don't make sense. There was no attempted coup for example
Now you're just ignoring things. Iris, Colonel's sister, who has every reason not to want the Maverick Hunters and Repliforce to kill each other, calls it a coup. Every time the Maverick Hunters tell Repliforce to call off the coup, their response is "No!", with usually some variant of "we're justified in doing this!" added, as opposed to "Coup? What the hell are you talking about?"
Zero's story:
Opening:
(Zero returns to the Maverick Hunter H.Q., and finds Iris waiting for him.)
Zero: Iris! ... What are you doing here?
Iris: My brother Colonel started the coup!
Zero: I know...
Iris: Please don't fight against him! This must be some kind of mistake!
Zero: They've occupied several cities already. As a hunter, I must stop them.
Iris: Zero...
Zero: I must go now!
By the way, notice the "occupied several cities" line, and how Iris doesn't contest this.
Web Spider:
Zero: There's still time, call off the coup!
Web Spider: No. I know where my loyalties lie.
Storm Owl:
Zero: Wait! Stop the coup!
Storm Owl: No. We're justified in doing this!
Cut Scene Duel with Zero and Colonel:
Zero: It's not too late. Stop the coup now!
Colonel: ... Never.
Lucky wrote:no attempt to conquer the sky, no cities destroyed, and no new weapons were made or used.
I will point out that Iris, after hearing how Repliforce has occupied several cities, doesn't protest any of the level summaries, and she has time to turn on the news to see what's going on while Zero's off killing her brother's troops. And I'm pretty sure it's hard to fake a city getting attacked on a scale that has been described.
And as for no new weapons:
(X playthrough)
Sigma: Hee hee hee. Repliforce are the fools this time! Now all that's left is to destroy Earth with the very weapon they made!
So, instead of not making weapons, they made a weapon powerful enough to destroy the Earth. While I'm doubting they're facing Death Star-like destruction, it's probably going to leave planetary-scale devastation.
Lucky wrote: Do check what the word egotistical means. You are misusing it here.
They were willing to fight a war over their own sense of pride, getting countless people killed in the process. They value their own nonsensical sense of pride over their innocence and the lives of their eventual victims. If that's not egotistical, then it's some word in the same vein.
Lucky wrote:X and Zero are Maverick Hunters not Repliforce. it is standard practice of the Maverick Hunters to be trigger happy, rude, dangerous jackbooted thugs.
And yet every time the player characters come across anyone, they get fired on by the grunt troops first, and pretty much every Maverick boss insists on fighting you to the death while many times the player tries talking first.
Lucky wrote:This is stated as why X removes himself from active duty after X6.
And yet returns after the other characters rescue a certain number of reploids, suggesting that diplomacy isn't working either.
Lucky wrote:Conversely Repliforce was polite,
Colonel refused to come in for questioning and only cited pride as his excuse. This is even worse in the Zero playthough considering Zero just saved his sister and Colonel said he owed him one.
Lucky wrote:only fired in self defense,
Yes, I'm sure that city Jet Stingray decimated (actual word used) had it coming, as did the other cities Repliforce occupied.
Lucky wrote:and smart enough to leave the planet rather then dishonor themselves with a war they didn't want to fight.
A war they provoked because they valued their pride over proving their innocence. A war they openly said they'd rather fight than have their pride wounded.
Lucky wrote: The manual is not accurate remember.
It's closer than your claims that Repliforce did all the grunt work for Sigma and Doppler's uprisings.
Lucky wrote:The Maverick Hunter assume Repliforce was attacking, but they came after the fact.
Repliforce was the most likely suspect, and they didn't do much to ease any fears that they were. Furthermore, you see all those Knot Berets (those fat robot soldiers) in the opening stage, which are only ever seen with Repliforce-related levels.
Lucky wrote:Repliforce's big evil plan was to leave Earth.
It's not their end goal that's the problem, it's how they went about it. I might have a plan to bake cookies, but if I break into the store, steal the ingredients, and murder the police officers sent to investigate, I am not spontaneously absolved of my crimes just because what I was doing it for was essentially harmless.
Lucky wrote:All the supposed crimes are lies planted by Sigma's agent,
It's kind of hard to fake an invasion and occupation of a city, let alone multiple ones. There would be newsfeeds, satellite images, and thousands if not millions of witnesses. Double would need an actual army dressed up as Repliforce, not just a blitzkrieg on a vulnerable location where most if not all the evidence will get destroyed when it comes crashing to the ground. And the fact you get the same mission statements from Iris that you do from Double tells me Double didn't have to fake a thing.
Lucky wrote:and the Maverick Hunters are drooling morons who don't investigate anything.
I think a coordinated invasion and occupation of multiple cities, including the decimation of one of them would make the news, and I'm guessing Iris, an experienced former Navigator with close ties to the Maverick Hunters through Zero and Repliforce through her brother, can read the same mission statements when you're playing as Zero, would probably think to double check whether or not he's killing all her friends under false pretences while Zero is in the level.
Lucky wrote:Actually it doesn't need to be stated verbally to be shown to be true. Neither X or Zero act as if they have the authority to order Repliforce to do anything. It is implied by the Colonel's behavior that the Maverick Hunters are nort in the chain of command.
The Maverick Hunters are the primary anti-Maverick force in the world, and not only does Colonel not say a damn thing about X/Zero's ability to order them around, he cuts off any argument about anyone else in the chain of command being able to tell them to disarm and come in peacefully. Furthermore, X/Zero was sent there, while Colonel was there on personal business. Furthermore, Colonel acts like Zero and him are old buddies.
Lucky wrote:Who "THEY" are is never explained, and irrelevant as "THEY" never take any action. "THEY" in this case is most likely the Maverick Hunters as no one else tries to order Repliforce around
X4:
General: Brave soldiers of Repliforce, we have all been wrongfully judged as Mavericks by the humans.
By the humans. Not the Maverick Hunters.
Lucky wrote:That is never stated in the game.
Repliforce never tells X/Zero that they don't answer to them either. At least I'm quoting things someone on the game design team made and put out, instead of letting my own theories colour my predispositions.
Lucky wrote:You're using a source that states Double is something he isn't remember.
The fluff-text of the manual is presented from an in-universe perspective. How Double got to be the secret killing machine he was (was heavily modified after he defected to Sigma/Sigma captured him, or Sigma created a heavily modified clone of the original, or something) doesn't change the fact that as far as anyone knew, he was built by Dr. Cain.
The Mega Man 6 manual didn't say The Mysterious Mr. X was Dr. Wily, now did it?
Lucky wrote:As portrayed in the game, Repliforce is the actual military, and Maverick Hunters are a supplemental militia. It would not make sense for the militia to be better outfitted then the real military. The Maverick Hunters only have teleportation and jet bikes.
And yet the Repliforce is meant to supplement the Maverick Hunters, not the other way around. Plus, they had the Enigma cannon, which was the only functional cannon they had left after the Sigma Virus ruined everything, suggesting they had other weapons. Also, they had the ability to launch space operations, considering they were able to follow Repliforce and try to knock out Colony Eurasia. And much of Simga's original equipment comes from stuff he commandeered for his rebellion, so at least they had at one point that kind of firepower.
Lucky wrote:You are reading way to much into that while ignoring how out of control the Maverick hunters were.
Ah yes, stopping a giant killer dragon mechaniloid from murdering random civilians, including the Colonel's own sister. They were truly out of control.
Lucky wrote:You are taking the statement out of context. He was being confronted by someone who was heavily armed and behaving in an unreasonably aggressive manner for no reason while he was polite and helpful. It only makes sense he would get defensive after a while.
A guy who just witnessed the fall of Sky Lagoon, a guy whose primary responsibility is to deal with Mavericks, who is dealing with the most likely suspects, and suspects that ran off after a handful of sentences stating entirely selfish motivations rather than a proper dialogue. Furthermore, X and Zero try to talk him down, but he just runs off.
X4 (X playthrough):
Colonel: Do as you will! The Repliforce would sooner fight and die than discard our pride. Consider us Mavericks if this is what you wish!
X: Wait! Calm down, Colonel!
(Colonel teleports out.)
X: What the ...! Something's got to give. Otherwise the entire Repliforce will be considered to be Mavericks!
X4 (Zero playthrough):
Colonel: I'm afraid I can't. Soldiers never drop their weapons! I won't do it, not even for you, Zero!
Zero: Then they'll think you're a Maverick!
Colonel: So be it! The Repliforce prefers war over dishonor and shame! Good bye, Zero!
Zero: Wait! Colonel! Listen to me!
(Colonel teleports away.)
Zero: Damn! This isn't good Colonel! They may decide the entire Repliforce is a group of Mavericks!
Lucky wrote:It is very unreasonable to ask the Colonel to disarm given that unlike X and Zero he is likely pure weapons being a purpose built war machine much like Vile.
He's only ever seen attacking with his sword. Also, Zero, not a purpose-built war machine? He was created by Dr. Wily to kill X.
Lucky wrote:No X and Zero are shown playing bad cop with no good cop for no reason while the Colonel started out completely polite, reasonable and helpful, and only after being threatened repeatedly became defensive.
Threatened repeatedly? They ask them to disarm and come in for questioning, and Colonel immediately launches into his bullshit pride excuse, while X/Zero try to talk him down.
Lucky wrote:It is even stated in X4, X6, X7 that being a trigger happy ass hole is standard behavior for Maverick Hunters.
That's true for pretty much every Maverick you speak with. At least the player characters try to negotiate most of the time.
Lucky wrote:It appearing to be Repliforce, but is never confirmed to be Repliforce, and in fact is confirmed to have not been Repliforce, but the Maverick Hunters ignore this inconvenient fact.
By the time the truth had come out, Repliforce had already launched their coup, and had invaded several cities and even destroyed one. So instead of the destruction of Sky Lagoon, they're in it for the city Jet Stingray decimated and the other cities they occupied. Meanwhile, if they hadn't been so obstinate, they might have found out how Magma Dragoon was the one who planted the evidence (he was a member of Repliforce at one point, he talks about having worked for them).
Lucky wrote:Even if members of Repliforce were involved that is no reason to behave like a maverick and threaten all of Repliforce.
How exactly are they supposed to find out who did it if they're not allowed to investigate? Even if it was a rogue agent, their refusal to allow any investigation means they would be seen as harbouring the criminals responsible, and their comments don't indicate that they would be conducting their own investigation.
Lucky wrote:Since no one ever tried to contact Repliforce we can conclude that the Maverick Hunters are taking action without any higher authorization.
Or, as the primary anti-Maverick organization, the Maverick Hunters were the ones first dispatched to the scene, while Repliforce was there because of Colonel's sister and thus did not have any official authorization (they probably could have gotten it easily enough under normal circumstances, but these weren't normal circumstances). Furthermore, going through the stage from first teleporting in to meeting Colonel for the first time in-game can take less than 5 minutes.
Lucky wrote:No
Mega Man Zero4 wrote: Narrator (Neige): The Reploids... They were robots designed to look like Humans... These technical marvels were given unique personalities and were intended to be the perfect workers and the perfect partners for mankind... But... the wheels of peace between Reploids and Humans were beginning to grind to a halt.
Neige: The Reploids were well designed. Perhaps too well. Their humanity began to sow the seed of rebellion. The rebels were labeled Mavericks and feared by their Human masters... The Humans decided to pit Reploid against Reploid... That was the fate given to them. The Reploids fighting for humanity were never given a choice... Thus the war of the machines began and the humans just watched...
And yet a picture of Omega is featured prominently during this narration. A war in which Dr. Weil took control of almost the entire Reploid population using Omega and the Dark Elf.
Meanwhile, Squid Adler and X both were part of those groups of Reploids who fought against Mavericks, and were able to leave the fighting when they wanted to.
Squid Adler: Always so pushy... You haven't changed at all... I made the right choice
when I resigned as a Hunter... I don't want to be a rude jerk like you.
Lucky wrote: Mega Man Zero4 wrote:Neige: War begot war... And time passed... Even with the construction of the utopian Human city Neo Arcadia, the war dragged on... The Mavericks defeated the leader of Neo Arcadia. And now... Neo Arcadia is under the control of the criminal Dr. Weil. The former utopia is now only a shadow of its former glory. Many have started to flee the city. We are one of those groups fleeing from the clutches of Dr. Weil in our caravan...
Lucky wrote: Neige is talking about pre Neo Arcadia humans building the Reploids to use as slave labor. She is talking about Dr. Cain's time to her present. It is no different then you or i talking about slavery and civil rights struggles in the United States of America.
Even if what you say is true about her talking about early Reploid history, she wasn't exactly a witness to these events, and may be colouring them through her own biases based on what she lived through. Remember, she's commenting about things that happened over a century prior after two global catastrophes would wipe out numerous records and record keeprs. And the only ones she mentions being forced were the fighters, and as I have mentioned regarding Squid Adler and X himself, not an accurate statement.
Also, Andrew, the old-looking reploid, had multiple jobs, like a baker, a sailor, a teacher, and he speaks of these times with fondness as opposed to bitterness. He mentions how Reploids and Humans lived in harmony.
