Goa'uld in D&D setting

[Mr. Oragahn]

There's been a small thread at SBC.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ ... ds.262866/

Basically, the usual claim was that if the Goa'uld follow their modus operandi, they'll get squished hard.
Said MO is basically : they come to a world, claim to be gods, ask peasants to bow to their new gods or the place is leveled.

This totally disregards the fact that this MO, largely overgeneralized btw, was only the "rule" in a medium the Goa'uld knew: their galaxy, largely populated by humans that they themselves had moved to the four corners millennia ago, often forgetting about some worlds.

You can see that the most recently invaded worlds were inhabitated by humans, or that the conquest operations were often ran by lowly Goa'uld. As for past ones, those who had been kicked and either defeated or killed much earlier, we can see that it obviously never meaningfully affected the higher ups, since, well, they still were there, despite the randomly powerful aliens with either super tech or magical powers observed left and right.

Some debaters, I guess, would be hasty to take example from Apophis.
That is, take example from a minute amount of his entire life, and the most miserable at that. I'd remind readers that a long time ago, he and Ra banded together to kick Seker, who for that time ruled the Goa'uld and, apparently, did so from Earth. Then later on, Apophis became to be considered Ra's nemesis. Well, don't you see a problem with that? We've seen what it takes to be capable of threatening Ra. It takes huge fleets, lots of influence, plenty of worlds populated by Jaffa, plus several strongholds.

In the risk of repeating myself, Apophis' misery is quite demonstrated throughout the entire show, until he again rises in power to incredible levels.
Before that, you see him try to find fitting human females as future hosts by himself, going to worlds on foot through the stargate, lightly protected by warriors having outdated tech (the snake helmets are a total regression from the nanofold tech used within the ranks of Ra's family).
It's a whole different story to go to Earth in sure dire conditions and having Supreme Lord Ra take some discrete leisure & ego trip to one of his barren slave worlds and get his whole vacation ruined by a bunch of trained humans carrying a nuke with them.

Meanwhile, Heru'ur, for example, goes to planets with complete fleets or either sends armies to operate on their own.
At the end of season1, Apophis gambles an improbable ascension by taking two ships, which Teal'c himself thought would be (disastrously) slow at FTL, in order to conquer the age old yet largely forgotten Earth, from where came those men who previously had Ra bite the dust; information the Goa'uld could know only if they had spies within the Abydonians, or if some time before dying, Ra sent a subspace memo to his pals to tell them that he had a pleasant surprise today, that human from Tau'ri had come with superior equipment and even an atom bomb.
Let's return to Apophis.

He by all means is a lowly lord at the beginning of the show. Contrary to higher lords, he's never been shown in possession of any kind of stronghold (the SGC knew that there were many such strongholds in the Goa'uld dominion). Chulak was hardly that protected either. The loss of two ships is enough to show him as weak and have him on the run, and for several reasons, ending on Seker's private pet list.
We don't even know if before Ra's death and the turmoil which it threw the Goa'uld dominion into, Apophis wasn't subservient to another higher Lord, only getting free because of the recent events.

So, even if I don't know much about D&D, the fact is that it's a complete assumption to believe that they'd drive their collective ass into a completely unknown realm and behave as if they knew it by heart.

In fact, aside from the use of spies and Ash'raks, we have the evidence that when the Goa'uld deal with an unknown force outside of their little usual feudal/god game, they do take matters very seriously and band together.
See the case of Anubis' return. I already went over that several times in other threads during the last 2-3 years, no need to rehash that.

This is not meant to claim the Goa'uld would have a free reign in the worlds of D&D, but it's surprising to see that after 10 of years of show and two spin offs, one of which lasted 5 years itself, plus some TV movies, so many spacebattles members run on many assumptions and display an abyssal lack of quite basic knowledge about the most iconic foe of Stargate.

[sonofccn]

Basically, the usual claim was that if the Goa'uld follow their modus operandi, they'll get squished hard.
Said MO is basically : they come to a world, claim to be gods, ask peasants to bow to their new gods or the place is leveled.

This totally disregards the fact that this MO, largely overgeneralized btw, was only the "rule" in a medium the Goa'uld knew: their galaxy, largely populated by humans that they themselves had moved to the four corners millennia ago, often forgetting about some worlds.

Well perhaps SBC is twisting it to some absurd length but that is a fair generalization of the Goa'uld MO:

DANIEL
Not necessarily. Remember, Setesh is a Goa'uld.
O'NEILL
Yeah.
TEAL'C
As a Goa'uld, he will never lose his thirst for power.
DANIEL
And they do have a pretty common MO for getting that power.
TEAL'C
False religion.

Should be noted the Goa'uld in question was attempting to be "incongnito" and hidden and still followed the MO.

BA'AL
(chuckling)
Oh, come on now, Teal'c. We're smart enough to know we're not actually gods! Well, some of us are, anyway. There are always those who will begin to believe their own propaganda. I suppose all you need is enough people to worship you, and then, what's the difference? You're pretty much a god by definition, are you not?

Some debaters, I guess, would be hasty to take example from Apophis.

Aphophis is a System Lord and archetypical of thier mannerisms and basic style.There is certaintly no foul in using him as an example, through he is not the end all of Goa'uld either.

That is, take example from a minute amount of his entire life, and the most miserable at that. I'd remind readers that a long time ago, he and Ra banded together to kick Seker, who for that time ruled the Goa'uld and, apparently, did so from Earth. Then later on, Apophis became to be considered Ra's nemesis. Well, don't you see a problem with that? We've seen what it takes to be capable of threatening Ra. It takes huge fleets, lots of influence, plenty of worlds populated by Jaffa, plus several strongholds.

I am unsure what you are attempting to argue. Indeed to be a rival to RA, supreme system lord, would suggest Apophis, far from "miserable", was doing specactular.

In the risk of repeating myself, Apophis' misery is quite demonstrated throughout the entire show, until he again rises in power to incredible levels.
Before that, you see him try to find fitting human females as future hosts by himself

He did lead such operations. It is your supposition he did it from some weakness. I, conversely, can equally suppose he did it do to the personal nature of the task as well as a "hands on" style of governing. It also should be pointed out that the show offers no indication of Apophis's position being weakened until after his attempted invasion of Earth:

BRA'TAC
Teal'c is right. Nearly all the warriors and serpent guards loyal to Apophis died on those two ships. Apophis returned to Chulak in shame.
TEAL'C
He must act quickly to reinstate his power, or the system lords will send another Goa'uld to eliminate him and rule in his place.

Lastly we have this from Teal'c:

TEAL'C
Some, like Apophis, are great kings and rule over many worlds as their gods. But they have no need for peace. If they could kill you, they would.

And while only a Jaffa Teal'c is a veteran First Prime who has fought numerous other Gou'ald's armies. If his master was notably inferior he would likely have a good idea.

lightly protected by warriors having outdated tech (the snake helmets are a total regression from the nanofold tech used within the ranks of Ra's family).

I would have to ask what episode they made such distinction.

Meanwhile, Heru'ur, for example, goes to planets with complete fleets or either sends armies to operate on their own.

Well for the former I would request clarification on "complete fleets", what numbers we're talking about as well as the situation, the latter I would argue Apophis employed "armies" when approtiate. However we seldom if ever saw him engage in a large scale operation, instead fighting raiding parties and the like of the SG teams.

There is, also, the outer universe issue that the concept of Gua'uld was evolving/altering as was the Verse in question.

which Teal'c himself thought would be (disastrously) slow at FTL

Again Teal'c is First Prime of Apophis, he'd waged numerous battles in the name of his lord. If Apophis's ships were noticably slow he'd have known about it and said something. Teal'c's error is likely either a sudden tech boost on the Goa'uld's part or, more likely, the System Lords had mostly been playing with each other the last few decades/centuries and deliberatly "hobbling" themselves to prolong it/keep it running.

He by all means is a lowly lord at the beginning of the show.

I would, strongly, argue little actual evidence supports this supposition.

Contrary to higher lords, he's never been shown in possession of any kind of stronghold

By "stronghold" do you mean primary planet or base of operation, which Chulak would most certaintly qualifiy for, or an actual fortress on his world?

Chulak was hardly that protected either.

Elaborate. What criteria are we evaulating to determin if Chulak is "protected" or not?

The loss of two ships is enough to show him as weak and have him on the run, and for several reasons, ending on Seker's private pet list

The loss of two ships, and to a primative planet no less, was enough to put blood in the water and the sharks circling. The loss in and of itself was not enough to topple Apophis. It took Sokar to break him. Beyond that we know virtually nothing about what occured.

We don't even know if before Ra's death and the turmoil which it threw the Goa'uld dominion into, Apophis wasn't subservient to another higher Lord, only getting free because of the recent events.

Occam's razor. We have no need to generate unneeded complications. As it is we have no evidence Apophis was subservant to anyone, other than perhaps RA, and evidence Apophis was something of a threat/equal/rival to the "Supreme System Lord".

So, even if I don't know much about D&D, the fact is that it's a complete assumption to believe that they'd drive their collective ass into a completely unknown realm and behave as if they knew it by heart.

Unless the Goa'uld percieve a threat they would blunder in and attempt thier standard MO. They are not blind or incapable of change but niether are they particuarly subtle or particuarly effective as an organization.

In fact, aside from the use of spies and Ash'raks, we have the evidence that when the Goa'uld deal with an unknown force outside of their little usual feudal/god game, they do take matters very seriously and band together.
See the case of Anubis' return.

I would consider the treaty and subsequent brinkmanship with the Asquard would be a better example that the Goa'uld can rise above petty villany.

None the less they are, with exceptions, a mob of petty, short sighted meglomaniacs with all the baggage that entails. Leadership, when they are "serious", is shaky at best and highly dependent on a individual leader's ability, charisma, and force of presence.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Basically, the usual claim was that if the Goa'uld follow their modus operandi, they'll get squished hard.
Said MO is basically : they come to a world, claim to be gods, ask peasants to bow to their new gods or the place is leveled.

This totally disregards the fact that this MO, largely overgeneralized btw, was only the "rule" in a medium the Goa'uld knew: their galaxy, largely populated by humans that they themselves had moved to the four corners millennia ago, often forgetting about some worlds.

Well perhaps SBC is twisting it to some absurd length but that is a fair generalization of the Goa'uld MO:

DANIEL
Not necessarily. Remember, Setesh is a Goa'uld.
O'NEILL
Yeah.
TEAL'C
As a Goa'uld, he will never lose his thirst for power.
DANIEL
And they do have a pretty common MO for getting that power.
TEAL'C
False religion.

Should be noted the Goa'uld in question was attempting to be "incongnito" and hidden and still followed the MO.

The question is not whether the Goa'uld are power hungry. The question is how they'll try to obtain it in a completely new context.
Here, you're just showing a lone Goa'uld, stuck on Earth, trying to grow a cult around himsef. He's been around on Earth for a while, never able or wanting to leave.
But he knew what he was dealing with. Humans.
He's also nothing like what he once was.
That alone doesn't demonstrate anything at all.
Same with Ba'al's remark. He wants power, ok, we all know that.

Aphophis is a System Lord and archetypical of thier mannerisms and basic style.There is certaintly no foul in using him as an example, through he is not the end all of Goa'uld either.

There is as it's absolutely clear that he was weak, and resorted to rather desperate measures to obtain power. This is not what happens when the united System Lords act, especially when they do so together.
For example, when the dominating System Lords joined at the meeting station, they all fulminated about the loss of ships. This never made them loose any status whatsoever.

I am unsure what you are attempting to argue. Indeed to be a rival to RA, supreme system lord, would suggest Apophis, far from "miserable", was doing specactular.

It was a status that dated back millennia, mirroring egyptian tales. It never was proved once that it ever was up to date at present times.
Everything coming from an analysis of Apophis' power at the beginning of the show proves that he was in a very precarious situation and certainly no way to uphold his millennia old reputation as Ra's nemesis.
To challenge the Supreme System Lord, it takes forces of equivalent power. We've never seen anything like that coming Apophis.

That is why the reason I believe he's free at the beginning of the show is because he's smart and pulled the marshmallows out of the fire at the right time when the Tau'ri poured gasoline all over the campfire.
And with the forces he demonstrated, has he not been able to defend himself, we know by Goa'uld's rules that he would have been quickly conquered.
So in my opinion he was a vassal of some System Lord and I'm pretty sure that his freedom as a System Lord was quite fresh. In fact, if he had as much power as any other System Lord, he would have probably not even cared about the Tau'ri at all, having bigger fishes to fry.
All looks like an attempt at seizing prestige by conquering the world from where Ra's killers came.

He did lead such operations. It is your supposition he did it from some weakness. I, conversely, can equally suppose he did it do to the personal nature of the task as well as a "hands on" style of governing.

Risking his skin ass with a handful of Jaffa to guard him? To grab some fine women ass and carry her back? How cumbersome and desperate is that?
What he did in the SGC, scanning the chick, he could have done inside the confines of a securely defended lair.

It also should be pointed out that the show offers no indication of Apophis's position being weakened until after his attempted invasion of Earth

Please, I think you're not reading what I typed. I know the show, but I also know how to do comparisons.

BRA'TAC
Teal'c is right. Nearly all the warriors and serpent guards loyal to Apophis died on those two ships. Apophis returned to Chulak in shame.
TEAL'C
He must act quickly to reinstate his power, or the system lords will send another Goa'uld to eliminate him and rule in his place.

Depending on crew figures, Ha'tak can either carry 1000 or 2000 Jaffa.
Nearly all the warriors and serpent guards loyal to Apophis died on those two ships.

Seker controlled Netu, a planet with at least one massive city and strips of dots of light crossing the entire diamaeter, seen from space.
He had the luxury to turn an entire Goa'uld industrial moon to a hellish prison world.

That is what you'd expect from a System Lord capable of challenging the Supreme System Lord.

Lastly we have this from Teal'c:

TEAL'C
Some, like Apophis, are great kings and rule over many worlds as their gods. But they have no need for peace. If they could kill you, they would.

And while only a Jaffa Teal'c is a veteran First Prime who has fought numerous other Gou'ald's armies. If his master was notably inferior he would likely have a good idea.

It's as vague as it can get. Ruling many worlds but only counting a handful Jaffa as loyal must suck, eh?

Early SG-1 Apophis loses two ships, he's a fugitive.
Other System Lords do, they don't come out as weak.
Heru'ur, monitoring the capture of Cimmeria himself, loses all his forces due to Thor's assault (which, aside from destroying three perfectly self-building landing pads, possibly destroyed the three pyramid ships intended to land ontop of them). Did we suddenly see him running around in a pinto though?

lightly protected by warriors having outdated tech (the snake helmets are a total regression from the nanofold tech used within the ranks of Ra's family).

I would have to ask what episode they made such distinction.

Heru'ur's forces use the hawk helmets. In Secrets (and perhaps another episode), you can actually see Teal'c wearing one and having it fold in nothingness, like in the movie.
In comparison, Apophis' helmets are there to impress, but are impossibly clunky.

Well for the former I would request clarification on "complete fleets", what numbers we're talking about as well as the situation, the latter I would argue Apophis employed "armies" when approtiate.

Grabbing hosts was a more than appropriate moment to use armies or Ash'raks, really.
With genuinely many worlds under his grip, he'd have returned with an immense amount of women, not just a handful, because he'd have been able to scour many worlds with a large quantity of small squads and vassal Goa'uld at his orders.

However we seldom if ever saw him engage in a large scale operation, instead fighting raiding parties and the like of the SG teams.

What matters is what we see him not having while it would be expected to be present, as a demonstration of power to hold his own against not only a real System Lord, but literally a Supreme System Lord.

There is, also, the outer universe issue that the concept of Gua'uld was evolving/altering as was the Verse in question.

Seker was in season 3. Rather "early".
See, the producers could have easily had some random Goa'uld lieutnant leading a team of Jaffa, and returning with prisonners to Chulak.
Apophis wouldn't even need to be shown so soon. They'd have still gotten the guy with glowing eyes.

which Teal'c himself thought would be (disastrously) slow at FTL

Again Teal'c is First Prime of Apophis, he'd waged numerous battles in the name of his lord. If Apophis's ships were noticably slow he'd have known about it and said something.

What do you mean? He gave a speed after all.

Teal'c's error is likely either a sudden tech boost on the Goa'uld's part or, more likely, the System Lords had mostly been playing with each other the last few decades/centuries and deliberatly "hobbling" themselves to prolong it/keep it running.

Knowing how speed is everything to defend a world, I doubt it. Not to say that an old ship like Osiris' cruiser, sitting under the sand of Egypt for 10K years, obviously had more FTL punch than a paltry 10c.
It's also pretty much doubtful that Ra himself would travel so lightly equipped if ships could only reach 10c, considering how isolated and weakened a Goa'uld would get the moment he'd leave his territory.
I'd rather chalk it up to Teal'c still having to get used to Earth units. He's been hanging around with humans for less than a year. Nothing surprising here.

I would, strongly, argue little actual evidence supports this supposition.

And you would have little evidence to support you, in fact.
Because, as I said, my opinion is based on observations, and to the risk of repeating myself, no one can be a decent System Lord or even oppose a Supreme System Lord with such an obvious limit on resources.
I am not saying that Apophis wouldn't possess a couple useful assets. It's mostly a given that they keep good stuff. All of them. Example: the tooth of death.

By "stronghold" do you mean primary planet or base of operation, which Chulak would most certaintly qualifiy for, or an actual fortress on his world?

A fortress. At some point in the show it was established that the SGC zealously avoided those worlds like hell. Chulak? Erm, anyone could visit Chulak. You can even meat monks who'll walk you around and make you sit right inside the temple of Apophis.

Elaborate. What criteria are we evaulating to determin if Chulak is "protected" or not?

Perhaps, like a Ha'tak lying around so Apophis doesn't have to escape through a stargate?
More than two Death Gliders?
Some heavy staff cannons all around the place, notably on the edge of the city wall?
A decent number of Al'keshes, so prone to be used by other System Lords throughout the show?
A building that looks like the center of a fortress, instead of just a large room with a heavy door turned into a glorified prison (with a weakened wall no one seem to have given a shit about) ?
Thousands upon thousands of Jaffa troops and their respective troop transports?
Eventually a shielded stargate, itself protected by *something* (again, at least one heavy cannon)?

The loss of two ships, and to a primative planet no less, was enough to put blood in the water and the sharks circling.

It did more than that. It forced him for example to go to Abydos on foot, through the stargate, despite all the trouble this planet has been to Ra.
While Heru'ur came by ship.

The loss in and of itself was not enough to topple Apophis. It took Sokar to break him. Beyond that we know virtually nothing about what occured.

Apophis didn't demonstrate ruling over any other low tier Lord. Yet he's supposed to be able to confront Ra, or any force equal to what Ra possessed. Which means that even losing two ships full of nearly ALL his loyal Jaffa would have not sufficed to pull him down, for the simple reason that he'd have a large stock of "loyal Jaffa" to tap into.
Even if we take Thor's number, the figure of 200, let's just count the number of seats at the Goa'uld meeting station, which has obviously not changed much meaning that the number of top System Lords hasn't evolved that much either, you already even with 20 plus ships per System Lord.
Heck, just in order to oppose Ra's forces, even if he only were able to coordinate half that number of ships, you'd expect Apophis to own like 80~90 ship at least. Which means at the very least 80,000 to 160,000 "loyal Jaffa".

Seker probably took on Apophis because he managed to follow him better than other System Lords, and there is no reason he'd reject a weakened prey. But had Apophis been a measurably decent competitor to Ra and his ENTIRE lineage and vassal lords, the loss of two ships would have been largely tolerable, and certainly not such a death blow.

We don't even know if before Ra's death and the turmoil which it threw the Goa'uld dominion into, Apophis wasn't subservient to another higher Lord, only getting free because of the recent events.

Occam's razor. We have no need to generate unneeded complications. As it is we have no evidence Apophis was subservant to anyone, other than perhaps RA, and evidence Apophis was something of a threat/equal/rival to the "Supreme System Lord".

If you're going to argue now that Apophis could have been a vassal of Ra, why claim earlier on that he had to be a decent opponent to Ra, Supreme System Lord?
Besides, Occam's Razor goes for the most simple explanation.
What is there that is complicated in my suggestion that fits best?
There's ample evidence that Apophis was weak and didn't possess the kind of resources expected from a high tier System Lord who would uphold his reputation as Ra's eternal nemesis.

So either he was a vassal and recently regained his freedom, or he was such a small fish and almost forgiven (like Seker) that no one attacked him. And with the memories Goa'uld have, we'd have to speak of millennia.
But that second one doesn't fit because in a flashback episode we have Teal'c leading an attack against some of Ra's forces to gain control of some small world. Meaning that they still were fighting each other back then, and Jaffa live like ~150 years if they turn old iirc.

That or they pretended being enemies, and they just toyed around, explaining why Apophis wouldn't get smacked like an insect.

So, even if I don't know much about D&D, the fact is that it's a complete assumption to believe that they'd drive their collective ass into a completely unknown realm and behave as if they knew it by heart.

Unless the Goa'uld percieve a threat they would blunder in and attempt thier standard MO.

What about completely unknown realm didn't you understand exactly?
ALL you can judge the Goa'uld is them operating in a wide galaxy, largely populated by one species: humans.

They are not blind or incapable of change but niether are they particuarly subtle or particuarly effective as an organization.

Effectiveness isn't the point, and a lack of subtlety remains to be demonstrated.
You must not get confused with a demonstration of firepower or force when they consider they can win.

In fact, aside from the use of spies and Ash'raks, we have the evidence that when the Goa'uld deal with an unknown force outside of their little usual feudal/god game, they do take matters very seriously and band together.
See the case of Anubis' return.

I would consider the treaty and subsequent brinkmanship with the Asquard would be a better example that the Goa'uld can rise above petty villany.

One way or another, it pretty much defeats what you wrote above.

None the less they are, with exceptions, a mob of petty, short sighted meglomaniacs with all the baggage that entails. Leadership, when they are "serious", is shaky at best and highly dependent on a individual leader's ability, charisma, and force of presence.

Let's just see evidence of that. And let's see that they'd be so short sighted when dealing with a new real campaign of conquest against a totally unknown foe, in some different realm.
Chances are that they'd probably leave that place alone more than anything else. THAT is, after all, a known trait of theirs.

[sonofccn]

The question is not whether the Goa'uld are power hungry. The question is how they'll try to obtain it in a completely new context.
Here, you're just showing a lone Goa'uld, stuck on Earth, trying to grow a cult around himsef. He's been around on Earth for a while, never able or wanting to leave.
But he knew what he was dealing with. Humans.
He's also nothing like what he once was.

The quote demostrates quite clearly Goa'ulds have a consistent MO in how they obtain their power and demostrated it with a Goa'uld who had every incentive to be inventive and subtle. He didn't do that. Instead he formed a cult which, to anyone who knew his MO, led you to him like bread crumbs.

Same with Ba'al's remark. He wants power, ok, we all know that.

The other point being there are Goa'uld who buy into their own hype. Which reinforces these are delunsional, self-absorbed entities.

There is as it's absolutely clear that he was weak, and resorted to rather desperate measures to obtain power.

I'm afraid I'm not seeing that it is "absolutely clear". At best we're talking interpetation of nebulous events, an interpetation which cuts against the spirit, I feel, of what they show creaters were attempting.

For example, when the dominating System Lords joined at the meeting station, they all fulminated about the loss of ships. This never made them loose any status whatsoever

Well strictly speaking Apophis wasn't said to be suffering from the ships lost but the manpower. Its quite possible, through only a supposition, Apophis, in anticpation of bringing a verdant world to heel, had garrisoned sizable fraction of his ground forces upon those two ships.

Further they all lost ships which would deflect focus where as Apophis would have stood out like a beacon.

It was a status that dated back millennia, mirroring egyptian tales. It never was proved once that it ever was up to date at present times.

And never proven not to be. As with many things were are in the dark and should tread with some caution.

To challenge the Supreme System Lord, it takes forces of equivalent power. We've never seen anything like that coming Apophis.

Well we only saw,IIRC, a solitary and hardly impressive ship for RA. That doesn't mean other assets didn't exist.

That is why the reason I believe he's free at the beginning of the show is because he's smart and pulled the marshmallows out of the fire at the right time when the Tau'ri poured gasoline all over the campfire.

Which your are free to believe and argue for. It is however an argument, hardly absolute, not an established fact as you appeared to be presenting in your post to argue your case.

And with the forces he demonstrated, has he not been able to defend himself, we know by Goa'uld's rules that he would have been quickly conquered.

Well that is the sticky wicket. For the most part I find it less disruptive to assume Apophis was somewhat stronger "off screen" rather than invent an entire backstory of him subserviant to some unnamed Goa'uld. Especially since what little backstory we have on him makes him out to sound kinda bad arse, teaming up with RA to take down Sokar and the like.

In fact, if he had as much power as any other System Lord, he would have probably not even cared about the Tau'ri at all, having bigger fishes to fry.

1. The System lords have shown a rather pointed interest in wiping out Earth's humanity. Indeed they agreed to let Anubis back in their special club, in part, if he went and wiped us out. Simply put as a technologically advancing society with gate travel we are a threat, however marginal, to their power base.

2. I'd argue it would be the inverse of your supposition. A powerful System Lord without challenge, and while cut throat for the "recent" past things appeared to have been relatively stable, should have all the time and resources to persue petty vengences and vendettas while a struggling or precarious one couldn't.

All looks like an attempt at seizing prestige by conquering the world from where Ra's killers came.

Assuming he was aware, I can't remember, what would it accomplish? Earth is primitive, an easy victory. RA is dead and unable to show gratitude and the other System Lords are unlikely to care about a dead System Lord whose possesion they are likely eyeing.

Now showing you won't be pushed around by primitive savages, that I could see Apophis doing to save face. But not trying to avenge the death of his rival.

Risking his skin ass with a handful of Jaffa to guard him? To grab some fine women ass and carry her back?

If you are selecting a consort for the next few centuries you may want to ensure they meet your approval before hand.

Considering they successful fought off any resistence they encountered during the raids I wouldn't speak lightly of this "handful of Jaffa" either.

What he did in the SGC, scanning the chick, he could have done inside the confines of a securely defended lair.

Yes he could but that isn't what he chose. We simply are not privy to his thought process. At best you can make assumptions but they are no more valid than mine.

Please, I think you're not reading what I typed. I know the show, but I also know how to do comparisons.

I am aware of your arguments. I do not find them convincing as is my right. As it stands your evidence is stating your interpentation of some nebulous examples.

Depending on crew figures, Ha'tak can either carry 1000 or 2000 Jaffa.
Nearly all the warriors and serpent guards loyal to Apophis died on those two ships.

Or, as I suggested above, he loaded them up for occupancy duty. Nor do I deny there is a descrepency between early show Goa'uld and late show Goa'uld. I simply favor other interpetations.

Seker controlled Netu, a planet with at least one massive city and strips of dots of light crossing the entire diamaeter, seen from space.
He had the luxury to turn an entire Goa'uld industrial moon to a hellish prison world.

Uh...I thought Netu was the moon and Delmak was the world?

But to the point while I would agree the cityscape looks more impressive we could looking at a matter of asthetics. After all this is a penal colony capable, in part, of building Hataks:

DANIEL
Any of this familiar to you? A planet with two moons, a naqahdah refinery with some sort of antigravity dry dock nearby, with a mothership under construction?
RAK'NOR
I know the planet of which you describe. Erebus.
[TEAL'C reacts with concern.]
DANIEL
According to Greek mythology, Erebus is a place where condemned souls pass as soon as they die.
RAK'NOR
Then it is aptly named. The planet is used for the construction of Ha'tak vessels and the purification of the naqahdah to build them. Only Jaffa prisoner labour is used, it is only they can stand the intense heat and toxic gases of the blast furnaces fed by underground volcanic systems. Eventually even the Jaffa succumb

That is what you'd expect from a System Lord capable of challenging the Supreme System Lord.

The issue is through is a glimpse of Delmak or that Sokar is petty/evil enough to turn an entire moon into his own personal hell doesn't tell us how many Hataks he commands. How many legions of Jaffa he has at his beck. It gives us little to make comparison with Apophis.

It's as vague as it can get. Ruling many worlds but only counting a handful Jaffa as loyal must suck, eh?

Vague yes but if Apophis was a nobody and everyone was notably stronger/more powerful with vaster armies and ships you'd think Teal'c might have mentioned it.

Early SG-1 Apophis loses two ships, he's a fugitive.

No. He loses two ships and goes home in disgrace. The other system lords start circling the waters.

Other System Lords do, they don't come out as weak.

Likely in part because each of them don't have the entire league of System Lords schemeing to take their pound of flesh. Simply put the situation is not comparable.

Heru'ur, monitoring the capture of Cimmeria himself, loses all his forces due to Thor's assault (which, aside from destroying three perfectly self-building landing pads, possibly destroyed the three pyramid ships intended to land ontop of them). Did we suddenly see him running around in a pinto though?

We are given no data on how badly the loss of the three ships hurt Heru'ur or what his comitment is versus what Apophis's was. There is also the difference between losing to the Asguard, an outside threat you can better rally the other Lords around you against, and primitive Earth.

Heru'ur's forces use the hawk helmets. In Secrets (and perhaps another episode), you can actually see Teal'c wearing one and having it fold in nothingness, like in the movie.
In comparison, Apophis' helmets are there to impress, but are impossibly clunky.

Edit: sorry misunderstood, was thinking of "bloodlines" when Teal'c sneaks back on Chulak with his serpent guard helmet. The issue remains however that without a sample of each helmet to study and test how do we determine Apophis's helmets can't do what the Heru'ur's helmets do?

Grabbing hosts was a more than appropriate moment to use armies

Small scale raids, normally against primitives, is more fitting small scale forces than massive armies. It would be like asking why the SGC doesn't send regiments through the gate as a matter of course.

Ash'raks, really

Ash'raks are highly skilled assasians. We have no idea as to their number but their general lack of use implies they have far more pressing issues than being pawned off on relatively mundane duties.

With genuinely many worlds under his grip, he'd have returned with an immense amount of women, not just a handful, because he'd have been able to scour many worlds with a large quantity of small squads and vassal Goa'uld at his orders.

Unless he wants to chose each one personally, which it seemed to be, and was content with the smaller number. As well this wouldn't be the first universe with issues of Sci-fi writers having no sense of scale.

See, the producers could have easily had some random Goa'uld lieutnant leading a team of Jaffa, and returning with prisonners to Chulak.

Could have. But it wouldn't have added anything storywise and could have distracted from it. narratively it makes sense to link Apophis to the attacks.

Seker was in season 3. Rather "early".

My point was that the show was changing from how it was portrayed in the pilot. Early on ships were slow, few and armies small require long to build. Justification to keep Earth from being bulldozed. This was relaxed and changed as the show went on.

What do you mean? He gave a speed after all.

You cited the "disastrously slow" FTL estimation made by Teal'c. If you intended that as a sign of poor technology, echoing earlier your argument, I was heading you off. Same if you were attempting to argue Teal'c is an idiot/unknowledgable.

Knowing how speed is everything to defend a world, I doubt it. Not to say that an old ship like Osiris' cruiser, sitting under the sand of Egypt for 10K years, obviously had more FTL punch than a paltry 10c.
It's also pretty much doubtful that Ra himself would travel so lightly equipped if ships could only reach 10c, considering how isolated and weakened a Goa'uld would get the moment he'd leave his territory.
I'd rather chalk it up to Teal'c still having to get used to Earth units. He's been hanging around with humans for less than a year. Nothing surprising here

If that's your boat that's fine.

Because, as I said, my opinion is based on observations, and to the risk of repeating myself, no one can be a decent System Lord or even oppose a Supreme System Lord with such an obvious limit on resources.

Yes your opinion is but it is only an opinion. Based on certain interpetions weighed a certain way. My opinion is equally based on observation of facts of the Verse and equally as valid.

A fortress. At some point in the show it was established that the SGC zealously avoided those worlds like hell. Chulak? Erm, anyone could visit Chulak. You can even meat monks who'll walk you around and make you sit right inside the temple of Apophis.

That was an early time, the monk thing,back before Earth was a threat however. Now if we any hard data on these "fortress" worlds we might be able to make comparisons. Until then I"m not sure we have anything to go on.

Perhaps, like a Ha'tak lying around so Apophis doesn't have to escape through a stargate?
More than two Death Gliders?
Some heavy staff cannons all around the place, notably on the edge of the city wall?
A decent number of Al'keshes, so prone to be used by other System Lords throughout the show?
A building that looks like the center of a fortress, instead of just a large room with a heavy door turned into a glorified prison (with a weakened wall no one seem to have given a shit about) ?
Thousands upon thousands of Jaffa troops and their respective troop transports?

I was thinking more along the lines of what a typical Goa'uld posses, examples of what the other System Lords had at their worlds.

It did more than that. It forced him for example to go to Abydos on foot, through the stargate, despite all the trouble this planet has been to Ra.

For small groups and presuming your destination in near the star gate Gate travel would be more effiecient/faster than using an Hatak. We also do not know what comitments/pressures Apophis was undertaking then compared with Heru'ur, whom IIRC also risked his butt with a handful of Jaffa soldiers for the record, as well Apophis may have been trying to do things quietly to prevent a repeat of the RA incident where as heru'ur clearly is going in full military.

Apophis didn't demonstrate ruling over any other low tier Lord. Yet he's supposed to be able to confront Ra, or any force equal to what Ra possessed. Which means that even losing two ships full of nearly ALL his loyal Jaffa would have not sufficed to pull him down, for the simple reason that he'd have a large stock of "loyal Jaffa" to tap into.

Frankly I find it fascinating its raw man power, not industrial, that is cited as his issue. He indeed may have more ships than he can actually man.

Apophis didn't demonstrate ruling over any other low tier Lord. Yet he's supposed to be able to confront Ra, or any force equal to what Ra possessed. Which means that even losing two ships full of nearly ALL his loyal Jaffa would have not sufficed to pull him down, for the simple reason that he'd have a large stock of "loyal Jaffa" to tap into.

The issue is, to the best of our knowledge, both statements are equally true. If you want to absolve the descrepency we have to make both fit rather than pretend one is totally in error.

Even if we take Thor's number, the figure of 200, let's just count the number of seats at the Goa'uld meeting station, which has obviously not changed much meaning that the number of top System Lords hasn't evolved that much either, you already even with 20 plus ships per System Lord.
Heck, just in order to oppose Ra's forces, even if he only were able to coordinate half that number of ships, you'd expect Apophis to own like 80~90 ship at least. Which means at the very least 80,000 to 160,000 "loyal Jaffa".

Per Jacob:

JACOB
Only dozens at the rank of System Lord. Thousands of Goa'ulds in general

So running with a minimum of 200 ships and 24 system lords would be about eight apiece at a very low ball. But in any event I'm not suring of the reasoning which takes you from "20 plus" per System Lord to RA having 160. RA was supreme sure, single biggest and most powerful System Lord, but it doesn't mandate he has a fleet that can displace everyone elses. Having three or four times the fleet of the average Goa'uld would ensure no one wanted to be on his bad side.

But had Apophis been a measurably decent competitor to Ra and his ENTIRE lineage and vassal lords, the loss of two ships would have been largely tolerable, and certainly not such a death blow.

Well without knowing what occured backstage concerning the infighting and ousting of Apophis we simply can't make determinations of what would be tolerable. For instance assuming he had four System Lords "jump" him when they smelled blood he'd be looking at, using your figure, eighty odd Hataks. Assume Sokar has above average fleet numbers and the "fleets" may be concetrated in divergent areas across Apophis's domain and you can see how things can start looking bad.

If you're going to argue now that Apophis could have been a vassal of Ra

RA was the supreme System Lord. To some extent I'd argue all System Lords were subservant to him, if only because of his fleet.

Besides, Occam's Razor goes for the most simple explanation.
What is there that is complicated in my suggestion that fits best?

The fleshing out of an entire back story never suggested by the show. You would expect Apophis being some two bit push over easily conqured by a real system lord would get a mention somewhere in the show.

So either he was a vassal and recently regained his freedom, or he was such a small fish and almost forgiven (like Seker) that no one attacked him.

Well Sokar wasn't a small fish. Ra and Apophis and others all teamed up to take him down originally. But to the meat of the matter there is zero evidence he was a vassal and he isn't portrayed as weak during his initial run.

But that second one doesn't fit because in a flashback episode we have Teal'c leading an attack against some of Ra's forces to gain control of some small world. Meaning that they still were fighting each other back then, and Jaffa live like ~150 years if they turn old iirc

Indicating, descrepencies between episodes aside, Apophis was the rival to RA.

That or they pretended being enemies, and they just toyed around, explaining why Apophis wouldn't get smacked like an insect.

While I am a fan of the playing at war angle the show doesn't make indication Apophis would be squashed like an insect. And by that I mean with dialoge, posturing, ect which convey story and intent to us in the audience. To me Apophis was meant to be a big threat and any descrepency should be handwaved rather than try and tie the backstory in knots. Broad strokes continuity and all.

What about completely unknown realm didn't you understand exactly?
ALL you can judge the Goa'uld is them operating in a wide galaxy, largely populated by one species: humans.

How it affects the fundimental nature of the Goa'uld which is fairly brash and straightfoward. How they are supremely confident in thier own abilities and cultivate and maintain thier power through theatrics and claims of divinity. If they come to a new world they're not going to dispatch some lone infilitrator to try and sauce it but instead reflexivly try and use martial force to take it over and proclaim themselves gods.

Effectiveness isn't the point, and a lack of subtlety remains to be demonstrated.

Effectiveness is very much a point if they have hopes to implement a "national" policy or counteract changing circumstances. And as for subtlety, their prefered method of obtaining power is to set up a cult around them which, for obvious reasons, kind of stands out. Albiet most people won't assume its a front for an evil alien overlord.

One way or another, it pretty much defeats what you wrote above.

No. It shows they are not cartoon villains, that they are capable of some reasonable decision making. It shows they can accept reality however much they dislike it if presented with a big enough stick, that they can alter their behavior due to changing circumstances, but it doesn't make them sutble or the System Lords a competent organization.

Let's just see evidence of that.

Well for a starting place the fact they've spent most of their existence as an organization squabbling amongst themselves.That when presented with an Asguard protected world, a group who can frack you up, whose protection device has gone on the blink the Goa'uld's first instinct was to send a force and conqure it. Or the similar incident at Latona which similarly bit them in the arse.

And let's see that they'd be so short sighted when dealing with a new real campaign of conquest against a totally unknown foe, in some different realm.

Their short sighted against known, proven threats. I don't see why they'd be any less bold against totally hypothetical ones. Or that they'd differinate or care about the addition of new worlds rather than seeing them as potential new holdings.

Chances are that they'd probably leave that place alone more than anything else. THAT is, after all, a known trait of theirs.

And this is based off which examples again?