Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

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General Donner
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Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by General Donner » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:20 pm

Long time no see … Well, time for a bit more 40k-themed analysis! :D

As sometimes happens when I'm bored, I rifled through my 40k library for some light reading. This time I settled for Nightbringer, the first Ultramarines novel. It's about a guy called Uriel, who, like most Space Marine characters, is something of a Mary Sue, as he leads the brave and the bold trying to save a planet called Pavonis from a dastardly conspiracy. A pretty unremarkable read overall: not so much horrible as simply mediocre, which is par the course for the Black Library.

In VS debate terms, Nightbringer is best known for a certain quote about starships able to "crack continents" with their weapons. This claim will be familiar to most Spacebattles lurkers, and it may be Oragahn has already addressed it here. However, there are other passages in the book which will also be of interest to those looking for examples on how to interpret 40k firepower claims.

We'll highlight the starship firepower aspect only, here. The book does have some mildly interesting bits on ground combat, as well, but let's save those for another time.

* * *

First, then, the famous sentence about firepower which the likes of Connor and White_Rabbit will prefer to quote:
The majestic form of the Vae Victus slowly angled its massive bulk towards the surface of Pavonis, powerful energies building in her forward linear accelerators. Few men knew the awesome power of destruction the captain of a starship possessed: the power to level cities and crack continents. For all that the captains of the Imperial Navy might strut and boast of the capabilities of their ponderous warships, there was nothing that could compete with the sheer destructive speed and efficiency of a Space Marine strike cruiser.
We balk, here, at the inappropriate figure, assuming that both figures should indeed be understood literally. Causing damage of any note to a whole continent will require multiple orders of magnitude more energy than will leveling the largest of cities, yet here they are implied to be similar. Hence, we have good reason to consider this yet another example of hyperbole, for which 40k is well known, even in the absence of other evidence. Still, as it's not explicitly impossible, many will still champion a literal reading of this as a technical description of 40k capabilities. (i.e., Teratons ahoy!)

As an aside, and more plausibly, we learn further that Space Marine warships are superior to those of the regular Navy. Considering that these elite supermen are always said to be given the best of everything else in the way of equipment, this isn't very surprising.

And this is where the 40k people apparently stop with their analysis. But as will be seen below, there are, in fact, far more specific data on the firepower of the Vae Victis than this to be found in Nightbringer.


We begin, first, with an instance of tactical orbital bombardment: A comparative rarity in itself in 40k literature, but on occasion used to good effect. The effects are described as follows:
The magma bombs impacted within seconds of one another.

The first clutch hammered into the energy shield, overloading the field generators protecting this portion of the palace, and punching a hole. Subsequent bombs blasted through the wing the control centre was buried beneath, obliterating it in a thunderous detonation and hurling tank-sized blocks of stone high into the air. The next penetrated ten metres of reinforced rockcrete, blasting a crater almost a hundred metres in diameter.

Two bombs malfunctioned, the first corkscrewing wildly as it hit the upper atmosphere and landing at the edge of the Gresha Forest, immolating a sizeable portion of the Abrogas cartel's country holdings. The second hit over nine hundred kilometres from its intended target, splashing down harmlessly in the ocean.

But the rest slashed into the crater and punched deep into the command centre, their delayed fuses ensuring they exploded in its heart. Firestorms flared, incinerating every living thing within and collapsing what little remained standing. A vast black pillar of smoke, pierced with volcanic flames rose from the destroyed command centre, the shockwave of its demise rippling outwards for kilometres as though an angry god had just smote the earth.
It's the Vae Victis laying down this barrage. We note, initially, that multiple bombs are used; precisely how many it doesn't seem to say, but there would seem to be at least three “clutches” or salvos of multiple shots each. Their combined effects certainly don't appear to exceed what would be obtainable to present-day Earth using nuclear ordnance, in any case.

However, this analysis is somewhat misleading, as we're told below that the weapons (bombardment cannons) are not being fired at full power:
Lord Admiral Tiberius had wanted to level the entire palace with orbital bombardment, but Uriel had resisted such a plan, knowing that the vast forces the Vae Victus could unleash would level everything within fifty kilometres of the palace. The greatly reduced yield on the magma bombs had struck with precisely the correct force, and though there was certain to be some collateral casualties, Uriel hoped that that they had been kept to a minimum.
Variable yields are in effect. When maximally exerted, the warship's capabilities are far greater. Just toying with Wong's nuclear effects calculator at SDN, I get a yield in the low hundreds of megatons for such destruction from a single warhead. We're not told how many shots this level of devastation would require, however – Though from the above, we can probably infer at least a few salvos are intended – and this may drop the requirements quite dramatically.

The safe upper limit, in any case, will not be much higher than the four hundred megatons or thereabouts which the nuclear calculator indicates for a single detonation. (Multiple small bombs being rather more efficient at levelling than one large one.) Vastly impressive firepower, to be sure, but even on this highest end very far from the teratons and petatons still commonly claimed as typical warship yields by certain parties.

In conjunction with our observations on the first passage quoted, we note further that while these yields are very compatible with leveling cities – And are in fact probably even excessive for such purposes – they won't be breaking apart any continents, unless fire is kept up for a considerable duration. This fits with the generally observed trend in 40k literature that the more specific a description of an incident is, the less well it'll tend to yield itself to inflationary interpretations. It's always the vaguest quotes with the most latitude for spin-doctoring that the fanboys latch onto, in the process ignoring much more readily quantifiable examples.


What truly and conclusively sets a firm and far lower upper limit on the might of the Vae Victis, however, is the last quote we present. The context is an explicit dilemma between the binary alternatives of a surgical strike on a villain's underground installations and a planet-wrecking Exterminatus with special cyclonic torpedoes; if the former can't be used, the latter is required to destroy the MacGuffin demon he's summoning. An inquisitor argues in favor of the second option while Uriel and the planetary governor, who want to preserve the planet, are trying to dissuade him.

We read:
'How deep do these bore mines go?' he asked,.

'It varies,' replied Shonai, 'but the deepest are perhaps ten thousand metres, while others are around three or four thousand. It depends on the seam that is being mined and how deep it's economically viable to continue drilling.'

(…)

'There,' he said, 'We have the location and can attack without resorting to genocide.'

'I'm afraid that this changes nothing, Captain Ventris,' said Tiberius softly.

'Why not?'

'Even at full yield on our bombardment cannon, the magma bombs will not be able to penetrate that far into the planet's crust.'
The supposedly continent-cracking weapons cannot destroy a mine shaft some kilometers deep, even through sustained bombardment at maximum power. Any further commentary would seem quite superfluous. :D


As an endnote, we may again consider the behavior of the loud 40k fanboy factions at SBC and SDN, who will often refer to Nightbringer. No one who has quoted the popular continent-cracking description in this book has ever cared to share this last text, though its implications for the interpretation of the former are very obvious, to say the least. Additionally, they have insisted that literal reading of the first quote is not only reasonable, but actually preferable, despite the book itself showing this to be anything but the case.

Thus, we're once more left with the question of whether people are being ignorant or deliberately dishonest in their selective quoting of the novels. For many of the hangers-on, it might well be that they don't actually read the books and simply parrot the party lines from Connor and company. But as for the die-hard fans like White_Rabbit, who read nigh-literally everything the GW imprints publish? Passing judgment on them, we can hardly be so charitable.

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by sonofccn » Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Hey, good to see you back General Donner. And of course I enjoy these technical analysis threads.
General Donner wrote:A pretty unremarkable read overall: not so much horrible as simply mediocre, which is par the course for the Black Library.
Excepting Cain's books I'd have to agree with you from my limited experiance. ;) Through I did enjoy Fulgrim and Horus Rising greatly.

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:54 pm

General Donner wrote: The supposedly continent-cracking weapons cannot destroy a mine shaft some kilometers deep, even through sustained bombardment at maximum power. Any further commentary would seem quite superfluous. :D
Ow man... I barely skimmed Nightbringer. I think I did quote a bit from it in the "40K misc" thread, but I wondered if this glorious piece of text they brought about the continent cracking weapons was so straight forward. I should have known, the cherry picking never stops blossoming.
The number of super duper quotes I debunked with pieces of text like the one you found, either in SW or 40K (same wank, same style, same flaws), it's astounding.

I'd note, however, that it is perfectly fine to explain the varying capabilities of a system depending on how far it's pushed. In ST:Enterprise, the character Reed does something along that line by explaining the potency of a photonic torpedo, describing the effects, going from scratching the paint or blasting an antenna, I believe, to leaving a 3km wide crater in some asteroid.

But, anyway, that text above really puts an end to the obvious imaginative language and meets reality quite brutally.
Good job!

And, to be clear on that, I'm bashing the stupid wank, and only that. I'd be more than glad to enjoy that universe if it weren't for being spoon fed that troutaton nonsense left and right.
I can't even understand how they tout that kind of firepower, supposedly having existed since immemorial ages, when it literally pees all over the efficiency and power of several types of Exterminatus weapon arrays, the be-all and end-all of life annihilation in 40K, and still taken extremely seriously. Carrying an Exterminatus weapon system is a big deal, but not in the version of the universe the inflationists defend. In their version of the universe, excepted for the Exterminatus weapons which ruin a planet in one shot (rare weapons and which seem to be a rather recent brain fart, largely fueled by the video games), the Exterminatus weapons actually end being far less potent than mundane broadsides. It even completely kills the grimdark fun of an Exterminatus.

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by General Donner » Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:42 pm

sonofccn wrote: Excepting Cain's books I'd have to agree with you from my limited experiance. ;) Through I did enjoy Fulgrim and Horus Rising greatly.
I've found enough value in the 40k universe to buy a number of their books in my day. Some are far better than others, and some I think could sell and turn a profit even outside the franchise. There's an author called Dan Abnett who's famous for turning out better stories than the usual stable of writers, for example.

Though Space Marine novels in general tend to be among the weaker 40k has to offer, IMO. It's hard to make indoctrinated supersoldiers without much in the way of lives or personalities into interesting protagonists. A good author can still do it, but it requires effort.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:I can't even understand how they tout that kind of firepower, supposedly having existed since immemorial ages, when it literally pees all over the efficiency and power of several types of Exterminatus weapon arrays, the be-all and end-all of life annihilation in 40K, and still taken extremely seriously. Carrying an Exterminatus weapon system is a big deal, but not in the version of the universe the inflationists defend. In their version of the universe, excepted for the Exterminatus weapons which ruin a planet in one shot (rare weapons and which seem to be a rather recent brain fart, largely fueled by the video games), the Exterminatus weapons actually end being far less potent than mundane broadsides. It even completely kills the grimdark fun of an Exterminatus.
I think it's quite telling that before Connor began his 40k work, no one I'm aware of (including such long-lived 40k stalwarts as Black Admiral/Captain Orsai) argued for anything like those figures. They began with his SDN threads -- from what I know, more or less entirely with his interpretation of one of the early "truly stellar energies" quotes. They never had much more backing than that. (In more recent years I believe there have in fact popped up a few uber-powerful references, but these are still swamped by the literally dozens of books which indicate far more conservative numbers.)

Though personally I take more issue with the people who try to "up-tech" the 40k ground forces than the petaton advocates. Space combat isn't really all that affected in esthetical terms by the question of whether the space battleships are shooting kilotons or teratons of death rays at each other. But the whole feel of ground combat action is changed dramatically when you attempt to exchange WWI/WWII heroics out of the pulp for modern network-centric warfare with combined arms doctrine and fully mechanized forces. If you listen to some people, 40k shouldn't be desperate total war with brave charges across no man's land, vast tank battles on the steppes and gruelling Stalingrad sieges, but Tom Clancy-style high-tech blitzkrieging with every trooper having his own smartphone and GPS receiver.

In the end the point is, of course, the same. Some people want 40k to be powerful in message board terms, rather than either cool or consistent. (Not that it's very consistent in the first place, but it sure can be cool when handled properly by an author.) And, being unhappy with what the fluff and licensed novels have to say about the universe, they cherry-pick, distort and outright fabricate material to make up their own version instead.

It's not anything that's unique to this setting either, by any means; it's just that few others have such dedicated fanboys who are willing to go to such lengths to mine for quotes in so many obscure novels and fluffbooks.

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by sonofccn » Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:10 pm

General Donner wrote:I've found enough value in the 40k universe to buy a number of their books in my day. Some are far better than others, and some I think could sell and turn a profit even outside the franchise. There's an author called Dan Abnett who's famous for turning out better stories than the usual stable of writers, for example.
Yeah, I've heard good things about Dan Abnett. And of course I've found my investment in 40k books enjoyable. Like you said I don't think the stories are bad merely, with exceptions, I don't find myself coming back to them very often.
General Donner wrote:Though Space Marine novels in general tend to be among the weaker 40k has to offer, IMO. It's hard to make indoctrinated supersoldiers without much in the way of lives or personalities into interesting protagonists. A good author can still do it, but it requires effort.
Well any good Space Marine stories you can recomend? Myself being more of a guardsman kinda bloke.

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by General Donner » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:23 pm

sonofccn wrote:Yeah, I've heard good things about Dan Abnett. And of course I've found my investment in 40k books enjoyable. Like you said I don't think the stories are bad merely, with exceptions, I don't find myself coming back to them very often.
I think we're pretty much in agreement, for the most part. I just wanted to emphasize, like Oragahn, that I'm not just out to mindlessly hate the 40k universe, as some might perhaps want to accuse me of for disliking the 40k wanking that goes on in some places. (As well as criticizing a number of their books on literary grounds.) If that was the case, I'd hardly bother reading the spin-off novels. It's a fun enough setting as such things go. But you're entirely right, most of the novels aren't very memorable. The equivalent of popcorn flicks, for the most part. (Though with some exceptions.)
Well any good Space Marine stories you can recomend? Myself being more of a guardsman kinda bloke.
Well, let's see; there are a number of series out there, as well as one-shot novels. Personally, I'd recommend the Gray Knights; they have lots of epic and awesome in them if you like that, at least the first one, and the protagonist is kind of likeable. (They're working desperately to stop an uber-demon from rising, travelling across a sector hunting for clues while Chaos is trying to sabotage them; not an entirely original plot, but very atmospheric.)

Otherwise I can't think offhand of any really good Space Marine stories out there, to be honest. Stuff like the Ultramarines books is decent, but more bland than good. Abnett's written a Space Marine book -- Iron Snakes, or something like that -- that I hear is supposed to be good, but I haven't read it myself, so I can't vouch for it. Like you I tend to read more Guard stories than Space Marines.

As a word of caution, I'd avoid the Blood Angels series, which is pretty badly written, IMO. And also the Word Bearers, unless you like extreme grimdarkiness. (Even by 40k standards.)

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:16 pm

General Donner wrote:
sonofccn wrote: Excepting Cain's books I'd have to agree with you from my limited experiance. ;) Through I did enjoy Fulgrim and Horus Rising greatly.
I've found enough value in the 40k universe to buy a number of their books in my day. Some are far better than others, and some I think could sell and turn a profit even outside the franchise. There's an author called Dan Abnett who's famous for turning out better stories than the usual stable of writers, for example.

Though Space Marine novels in general tend to be among the weaker 40k has to offer, IMO. It's hard to make indoctrinated supersoldiers without much in the way of lives or personalities into interesting protagonists. A good author can still do it, but it requires effort.
Well, if you're just looking for some reason to spend time on a random piece of Space Fantasy, a novel of Warhammer may be good enough, among other things; although to many it will be like spending money on some SW or Halo novel: not worth it. Reading one book moves the imagination of the reader in a way which may not even correspond to the reality of the setting if you knew about it, like if your knowledge of SW was limited to the OT, so it may be necessary and interesting to limit the reading to a very few books only.

There was a novel I didn't read entirely about space marines fighting some necrons and eldars I think on a red desert planet. It's the book with the gigawatt defense fence thing.
The setting alone looked quite cool, the description was sufficiently inspiring so reading that part was cool. However, that's just like if you liked a movie for the visuals. When it comes to characters, I couldn't tell, I can't really care.
Though personally I take more issue with the people who try to "up-tech" the 40k ground forces than the petaton advocates. Space combat isn't really all that affected in esthetical terms by the question of whether the space battleships are shooting kilotons or teratons of death rays at each other. But the whole feel of ground combat action is changed dramatically when you attempt to exchange WWI/WWII heroics out of the pulp for modern network-centric warfare with combined arms doctrine and fully mechanized forces. If you listen to some people, 40k shouldn't be desperate total war with brave charges across no man's land, vast tank battles on the steppes and gruelling Stalingrad sieges, but Tom Clancy-style high-tech blitzkrieging with every trooper having his own smartphone and GPS receiver.
Strangely enough, the Tau cover that all-arms advanced warfare style, but since it's not humans and space marines, they hate it.
It's not anything that's unique to this setting either, by any means; it's just that few others have such dedicated fanboys who are willing to go to such lengths to mine for quotes in so many obscure novels and fluffbooks.
Right. Mixed to some leniency and laziness, it explains why no one bothers to verify that gargantuan work.

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by sonofccn » Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:18 pm

General Donner wrote:Well, let's see; there are a number of series out there, as well as one-shot novels. Personally, I'd recommend the Gray Knights; they have lots of epic and awesome in them if you like that, at least the first one, and the protagonist is kind of likeable. (They're working desperately to stop an uber-demon from rising, travelling across a sector hunting for clues while Chaos is trying to sabotage them; not an entirely original plot, but very atmospheric.)
Thanks! I'll check it out next chance I get.
General Donner wrote:Like you I tend to read more Guard stories than Space Marines
Oh. Might I suggest Angel of Fire? Its the first book of a set concerning the Macharian Crusade, through the big guy himself is mostly a supporting character for the bulk of it, and I thought it balanced gritty fighting with humor. Plotwise its the crusade conquring a planet and running into a snag against the local religion, centered around an Angel of Fire, which seems to endow its devoted with exceptional power...

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Re: Nightbringer and continent cracking (Warhammer 40,000)

Post by General Donner » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:57 pm

sonofccn wrote:Might I suggest Angel of Fire? Its the first book of a set concerning the Macharian Crusade, through the big guy himself is mostly a supporting character for the bulk of it, and I thought it balanced gritty fighting with humor. Plotwise its the crusade conquring a planet and running into a snag against the local religion, centered around an Angel of Fire, which seems to endow its devoted with exceptional power...
I'll definitely be having a look at it, once they release it in paperback.

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