Hadley Hope force sub

[sonofccn]

A straight forward scenario. A squad of 12 stormtrooper lead by Darth Vader are wisked by Force-magic to the colony Hadley Hope with their standard kit, such as the E-11 and DLT-19 rifles, with the knowledge they will only be sent back home if they secure and clear Hadley of any Xenomorph infestation. Intel wise they recieved the same data as the Marines of the Sulaco, ie Ripley's report, the loss of comunication with the colony ect. They are not informed of the Queen or the actual number of Xenomorphs which like in ALIENS can safely be guessed in the 100+ level.

And because I'm a mean person, and because the fight in the movie predominatly took place inside the colony buildings which I'm trying to recreate, Vader's squad recieves no armor or air lift support even through the Colonial Marines had them. So can a dozen of the Emperor's finest plus the Dark Lord of the Sith take the gold? Or are they merely the latest victims to the acid bleeding killing machines which are the Xenomorphs?

[Praeothmin]

Vader solos the entire nest, including the Queen...

Look at what James did, and remember that Vader has stronger armor (Lightsabre resistant), and a lot of force powers, plus an insta-kill weapon...

Hadley's Hope is saved...
And then the Empire rules over it... :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Vader would also be able to sense the creatures rather easily.
Now, his armour may be resistant to acid (we don't know, resistance against a kind of damage doesn't mean it can handle anything), but his lightsabre isn't. A killing a xenomorph with a weapon like lightsabre will sooner or later result into the lightsabre being splashed with said acid. For example, when a facehugger was cut with a tool, acid jumped from the wound. Of yeah, fighting the facehuggers... can't see Vader whining there.
Although I couldn't say when the lightsabre would get damaged, I think it is bound to happen too soon.
From there, blasters will be of limited use. Troopers with far more potent and accurate weapons couldn't do jack against the monsters. They had grenades, grenade launchers at the tip of their weapons, motion trackers, smartguns, etc.
I can't see Vader doing his TK all the time either.
Besides, considering that he's not invincible (Luke the rookie still kicked off the carbon-freeing platform in TESB and got the upper hand through a violent rage in ROTJ), he could be overwhelmed.
I think the Empire will have to BDZ Hadley's Hope from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[sonofccn]

Vader solos the entire nest, including the Queen...

Look at what James did, and remember that Vader has stronger armor (Lightsabre resistant), and a lot of force powers, plus an insta-kill weapon...

I have to respectfully disagree. No disrespect intended towards the Dark Lord but James is a lot faster/agile than Vader and I'd hazard would compare more favorably with Anakin before he needed the suit. And while his armor should provide him with some protection not enough I'd wager that he could just wade into the Xenomorph's midst's without concern. As well force powers do seem require some concetration/focus in order to wield. If it was merely one on one I'd concur Vader owns without question but against the entire hive, by himself, I'd argue he's going to be overwhelmed.

A killing a xenomorph with a weapon like lightsabre will sooner or later result into the lightsabre being splashed with said acid

I thought lightsabers, baring the Mos Eisley cantina scene, cauterized or otherwise rendered the wound bloodless. If I'm mistaken I do apologize of course.

From there, blasters will be of limited use.

I don't know. Imperial blasters could apparently blast bowl sized craters into the wall at Bespin. If I recall correctly JMS's old site pegged that on par with an "elephant gun" type rifle. Pulse rifles might have a faster rate of fire but per shot blasters should hit harder. I don't see an individual Stormtrooper having too much trouble putting down a Xenomorph.

Troopers with far more potent and accurate weapons couldn't do jack against the monsters.

With respect I do have quibble with you on that. The Colonial Marines achieved a over all fairly advantagious kill ratio between them and the Xenomorphs during the conflict. Even during the cluster frag of the ambush inside the alien hive/reactor area Drake and Vasquez achieved mutiple kills. Indeed had the squad not walked smack dab in the middle of Bug Central essentially unarmed save for two Marines it very well could have avoided being virtually obliterated on first contact and may even have succesfully exterminated the Xenomorph infestation or succesfully held out for retrieval. Mistakes the force sensative Vader is unlikely to make.

[Praeothmin]

Besides, considering that he's not invincible (Luke the rookie still kicked off the carbon-freeing platform in TESB and got the upper hand through a violent rage in ROTJ), he could be overwhelmed

So you're saying that a Force-user being defeated by another Force-user (the first time because he didn't want to destroy him, only capture) is a good example for Vader losing to Xenos?
I disagree...
Vader is much stronger than anyone in Aliens, bar perhaps Bishop, and even then I'm not so sure...
His Lightsabre, as sonofccn said, does cuaterize wounds most of the time, so we may see less acid splash towards Vader...
And for a man who stood less than ten feet away from Lava for at least a minute before bursting into flames, and then only after he was wounded, I'd say his acid resistance should be much higher than normal...
And his armor, I think, should resist more than the Colonial Marine's could against the Xeno blood...

I say Vader, with the Force Crush, or Telekinetic push, would be very dangerous indeed to Xenos...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Besides, considering that he's not invincible (Luke the rookie still kicked off the carbon-freeing platform in TESB and got the upper hand through a violent rage in ROTJ), he could be overwhelmed

So you're saying that a Force-user being defeated by another Force-user (the first time because he didn't want to destroy him, only capture) is a good example for Vader losing to Xenos?
I disagree...
Vader is much stronger than anyone in Aliens, bar perhaps Bishop, and even then I'm not so sure...
His Lightsabre, as sonofccn said, does cuaterize wounds most of the time, so we may see less acid splash towards Vader...

Cauterizing flesh has not the same value has trying to burn acid. Xenomorph biology is built as to have a strong exoskeleton and protective skin, but which has a tension to it, so much that a wound spews acid. Contrary to tissue which, although it contains lots of water, remains rather solid, there you're talking about trying to rupture a vascular system which clearly doesn't behave as if you tried to cut a piece of meat.
Add that to the Darth Maul cut (which sprayed) and the arm chopped off in the cantina, and you have a strong risk of getting sprayed. Then, again, the xenomorph contains a large amount of acid for its body mass.
What makes you think it is a good thing to pour large amounts of heat into what is akin to molecular acid, stuff which in even in small drops can eat through several decks?
Don't you think there's a risk it might make things worse?

And for a man who stood less than ten feet away from Lava for at least a minute before bursting into flames, and then only after he was wounded, I'd say his acid resistance should be much higher than normal...

I'm not worried about Vader's health, although what made his armour tougher isn't necessarily defined by material resistance but perhaps a property that makes it better at disrupting the energy field of a lightsabre.

What I'm saying is that his weapon is absolutely not protected. And we've seen him being less than cautious with his lightsabres in the past, when he was more "abled" than the ambulating under the cripple version from ANH.

I say Vader, with the Force Crush, or Telekinetic push, would be very dangerous indeed to Xenos...

Even top notch Jedi don't spam such powers and largely rely on their lightsabre.
Vader being a tank is not going to be able to spam TK on xenos willy nilly.
As a comparison, Obi-Wan, who was very good and handled Anakin (because he knew him), was hardly seen using much of TK against non-Force users. Jango? Nope. Grievous? Nope (twice). Same for Anakin in fact, even when Grievous was stuck between him and his master. Magnaguards? Never. Legions of battle droids? Barely.
Neither did other Jedi masters. Force push is clearly a rarity.
Such rarity simply doesn't statistically cover the xenomoprh numbers thrown at them.

Not to say that xenomorphs are quite sturdy, and it's not the Force pushes that put down those silly B1 droids that's going to stop them. Neither will a long single force choke on one creature hold against a horde.
The 12 soldiers should be there to take care of that, but their weapons, as I said, are less than stellar and only lucky shots in sensible areas of the xenomorphs would pull them down. Their rate of fire is abysmal in comparison to pulse rifles or smartguns, which had the advantage of using explosive bullets (they also were AP but blaster bolts seem to have a capacity to drill to a certain degree through matter in some cases). E-11 rifles are quite potent, and I may rate them equal or slightly superior in terms of damage per bolt in comparison to colonial ammo (mostly based on the damage caused inside the Tantive IV or in Cloud City), but the colonial weapons lay down a better barrage.
The other problem being that without any rescue party, if the squad goes down inside the atmospheric processor, they won't be able to use their energy weapons, otherwise they'd risk easily damaging the station and having it blow up in a couple hours due to some overpressure caused by a containment failure (the mini-sun inside the reactor not cooling down on its own, can't be harnessed anymore after the containment system fails).
That's pretty shitty, and yet the processor is where the nest is found.
You're selling those xenomorphs short based on some combat efficiency from Vader we never saw, even when not encumbered by his suit.
Unless you want to consider B1s who can't hit shit right in front of them more lethal than xenomorphs which, despite possessing no ranged weaponry (I leave A3 and A4 acid spit aside), are so lethal that you could consider them deadly at ranges surpassing the missing ranges routinely demonstrated by B1s.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I also remember an episode with Clone troopers entering geonosian caves and being picked one by one ALIENS style, by creatures less ferocious than xenomorphs.
Besides, clonetroopers are considered to be superior to stormtroopers, before the degenerating lineages.

[Praeothmin]

If you are talking about the Geonosis caves, you have two choices:
-The flying Geonosians, which the aliens can't do;

or

-The zombie Geonosians, which were highly resistant to blaster wounds, again a feat the Xenos cannot replicate...

[sonofccn]

The 12 soldiers should be there to take care of that, but their weapons, as I said, are less than stellar and only lucky shots in sensible areas of the xenomorphs would pull them down.

I'm afraid I would have to disagree. One to two bolts, of the caliber at Cloud City, into the center of mass of a Xenomorph should greatly replicate how a pulse rifle "shreds" one. A feat which typically required the Marines to hose down the creatures/ fire extended bursts. Now their fully automatic nature does, as you state later, make them better at laying down suppression/saturation fire but in terms of bolts that hit should require no more luck than a Colonial Marine needs putting 15-20 bullets through one.

The other problem being that without any rescue party, if the squad goes down inside the atmospheric processor, they won't be able to use their energy weapons, otherwise they'd risk easily damaging the station and having it blow up in a couple hours due to some overpressure caused by a containment failure (the mini-sun inside the reactor not cooling down on its own, can't be harnessed anymore after the containment system fails).
That's pretty shitty, and yet the processor is where the nest is found.

Burke: You can't just blow up the installation! The Company had invested a substantial-urk!* clutches throat and collapses*

Vader: I find your weasley nature disturbing.

Seriously through I do very much doubt Vader will care about the facility, and he very well might not even realize the danger, seeming to be more concerned with completing his objective in the OT than anything else. As well Vader, and the Stormtroopers, are instantly evaced following the complete destruction of the Xenomorph infestation. Most of which would be in the hive lair.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The 12 soldiers should be there to take care of that, but their weapons, as I said, are less than stellar and only lucky shots in sensible areas of the xenomorphs would pull them down.

I'm afraid I would have to disagree. One to two bolts, of the caliber at Cloud City, into the center of mass of a Xenomorph should greatly replicate how a pulse rifle "shreds" one. A feat which typically required the Marines to hose down the creatures/ fire extended bursts.

Incorrect. Short bursts did. The frantic sprays from Hudson right before his death are not a reliable template.

Now their fully automatic nature does, as you state later, make them better at laying down suppression/saturation fire but in terms of bolts that hit should require no more luck than a Colonial Marine needs putting 15-20 bullets through one.

Except than we never saw a high rate of fire coupled to that level of destruction. It has always been one bolt over several seconds.
That would bring their bolt firepower to the level of .50 caliber against a solid target (a softer one, depending on its thickness, might actually just suffer a small hole until the bullet yaws). You're between 18 to 20 kilojoules. As per the wikipedia article, a shot can get through a brick wall or completely cross a concrete cinder block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MkROj75EaQ
Now that's an overgeneralization over the .50 caliber, and there are many cartridges designs, which don't work so well as others do. Some, by the way, can carry their own explosive.

High explosive bullets were delivering their energy into the target and blowing up from inside.
http://uscmc.wikispaces.com/m41
It is not guaranteed that blaster bolts would work in a way as to avoid making a crater on the surface of a xenomorph's body, instead of inside.

The other problem being that without any rescue party, if the squad goes down inside the atmospheric processor, they won't be able to use their energy weapons, otherwise they'd risk easily damaging the station and having it blow up in a couple hours due to some overpressure caused by a containment failure (the mini-sun inside the reactor not cooling down on its own, can't be harnessed anymore after the containment system fails).
That's pretty shitty, and yet the processor is where the nest is found.

Burke: You can't just blow up the installation! The Company had invested a substantial-urk!* clutches throat and collapses*

Vader: I find your weasley nature disturbing.

Seriously through I do very much doubt Vader will care about the facility, and he very well might not even realize the danger, seeming to be more concerned with completing his objective in the OT than anything else. As well Vader, and the Stormtroopers, are instantly evaced following the complete destruction of the Xenomorph infestation. Most of which would be in the hive lair.

No air support dude:

And because I'm a mean person, and because the fight in the movie predominatly took place inside the colony buildings which I'm trying to recreate, Vader's squad recieves no armor or air lift support even through the Colonial Marines had them. So can a dozen of the Emperor's finest plus the Dark Lord of the Sith take the gold? Or are they merely the latest victims to the acid bleeding killing machines which are the Xenomorphs?

Not sure they want to blow the whole place up and be stuck on that planet (if they survive). The blast was akin to a 40 megatons nuclear detonation.

[sonofccn]

Incorrect. Short bursts did. The frantic sprays from Hudson right before his death are not a reliable template.

More like a disagreement on what a short or long burst is. But the main thrust of my argument is the Marines are firing in automatic bursts. They are not firing one or two or three bullets into the Xenomorphs. Their firing, going with the ROF of 900 RPM as obtained here, like I said 10-15 bullets.

Except than we never saw a high rate of fire coupled to that level of destruction. It has always been one bolt over several seconds.

I haven't claimed a high rate of fire for the Stormtroopers guns. Now OT wise stormtroopers appear to have firing rates comparable to a rifleman equiped with a semi-automatic rifle. At least that is how it appears to me and what I was basing my argument on. Now moving to PT such as Here @ around 5:05 shows higher rates of fire with less advanced/old weaponry which I would argue is grounds for treating the older OT fire rates with a little reserve but that isn't central or needed for my argument.

That would bring their bolt firepower to the level of .50 caliber against a solid target (a softer one, depending on its thickness, might actually just suffer a small hole until the bullet yaws). You're between 18 to 20 kilojoules. As per the wikipedia article, a shot can get through a brick wall or completely cross a concrete cinder block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MkROj75EaQ

With respect how are you reaching a eqivilence between shattering a cinderblock and punching a divot nearly the size of Luke's face into a, presumbly, solid wall. As seen here Sorry for the crummy link, couldn't find the scene on youtube or a better image with a quick google search but still a rough idea of the blaster crater can be obtained. To me excavating those holes is more impressive than your video and is far better than what we ever really observe the M41A doing.

High explosive bullets were delivering their energy into the target and blowing up from inside

Well strictly from the movie the explosive could just as easily have been in aid of its armor piercing capability. As well, going strictly by the movie, they are not particuarly powerful at least against anything save the Xenomorphs whom, as you've earlier noted may be under pressures to "pop" spraying lethal acid everywhere.

It is not guaranteed that blaster bolts would work in a way as to avoid making a crater on the surface of a xenomorph's body, instead of inside.

Even detonating from the surface, if displacing or ejecting the equivlent mass to form bowl shaped craters, is not something a Xenomorph is just going to shrug off. Not only did a relative large chunk of its body mass just get scattered but stress and shock likely have just been translated through the rest of its squishy organs along with presumbly thermal damage.

No air support dude:

A straight forward scenario. A squad of 12 stormtrooper lead by Darth Vader are wisked by Force-magic to the colony Hadley Hope with their standard kit, such as the E-11 and DLT-19 rifles, with the knowledge they will only be sent back home if they secure and clear Hadley of any Xenomorph infestation.

Per the OP if they win they go home so as long as they kill every last Xenomoprh before the reactor goes boom there isn't a problem.

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 847#p46847

More like a disagreement on what a short or long burst is. But the main thrust of my argument is the Marines are firing in automatic bursts. They are not firing one or two or three bullets into the Xenomorphs. Their firing, going with the ROF of 900 RPM as obtained here, like I said 10-15 bullets.

Right. The point being the firepower delivered in a given amount of time. Stormtroopers use semi-auto, marines used short bursts, and within a second, the averaged damage-per-second of both weapons aren't too dissimilar.
Not to say that the most damaging bolts fired by E-11 are about once in a pack of bolts. Many shots from the same rifles were seen merely leaving scorch marks.

Except than we never saw a high rate of fire coupled to that level of destruction. It has always been one bolt over several seconds.

I haven't claimed a high rate of fire for the Stormtroopers guns. Now OT wise stormtroopers appear to have firing rates comparable to a rifleman equiped with a semi-automatic rifle. At least that is how it appears to me and what I was basing my argument on. Now moving to PT such as Here @ around 5:05 shows higher rates of fire with less advanced/old weaponry which I would argue is grounds for treating the older OT fire rates with a little reserve but that isn't central or needed for my argument.

But my point is that the most powerful shots are still a rare occurance.
Add that to an aim which is inferior, and the fact that unless the xenomorphs found a way to lurk around or trap the preys, they tend to avoid fire.
The sentry guns scene allows to make an interesting observation: that for the complete depletion of three guns and near the entirety of the last one, that's scant corpses to be found around, like if the xenomorphs kept teasing the weapons and forcing the enemy to consume their resources.
They'll try similar tactics on the Imperial soldiers.

There also are significant differences here. Imperials are not used to terran/UNSC tech. Not only there's no reason they could interface with its systems, or even read anything they see, but they couldn't repair anything that would involve hidden mechanical systems and electronics. Vader might recognize some systems based on simple universal elements, but for example you won't see them jack into the doors' codes.

Vader will have to cut holes into the base for any wall or door that is an obstacle. Xenomorphs being on standby may not even tick Vader's senses off, if he can sense anything. Even the queen was quite semi-asleep when laying eggs. Besides, based on movies and CWS, do we have Jedi sensing lifeforms at great ranges and knowing in detail what they're dealing with?

What will happen is that the troopers will explore the colony first. They know they have some creatures to destroy, an unknown quantity in fact, but they can't even use the systems to know how to count civilians and locate them.

Depending on Vader, they'll spend time wandering in the colony, or will go straight for the atmospheric processor.

There, however, things could happen differently. Vader will probably send a couple troopers for recon. They'll find the odd structures.
Either Vader sends them, they find civilians and the whole nest wakes up, but have to fight or retreat on foot, which is being to be hard or easy depending on where Vader's troops are located in the AP.
I think that they'd typically advance in a group, settle perhaps a few levels down, leave one or two men behind, find the nest and Vader would send a small recon team.
So they'll most likely going to have to travel a lot to retreat if they try to do so.

They have an advantage in that Vader should be a much more accurate motion tracker, but is also alone and can't indicate the position of all creatures all the time to all his men if they stretch out.
And doing so will also lower his own attention on the creatures attacking him.

That would bring their bolt firepower to the level of .50 caliber against a solid target (a softer one, depending on its thickness, might actually just suffer a small hole until the bullet yaws). You're between 18 to 20 kilojoules. As per the wikipedia article, a shot can get through a brick wall or completely cross a concrete cinder block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MkROj75EaQ

With respect how are you reaching a eqivilence between shattering a cinderblock and punching a divot nearly the size of Luke's face into a, presumbly, solid wall. As seen here Sorry for the crummy link, couldn't find the scene on youtube or a better image with a quick google search but still a rough idea of the blaster crater can be obtained. To me excavating those holes is more impressive than your video and is far better than what we ever really observe the M41A doing.

It's a rought comparison, also based on the behaviour .50 ammunition in long slabs of gelatin. At some distance, they start making a large cavity in soft material, because the bullet begins to shed its kinetic energy into the material as its trajectory becomes less efficient and friction increases. Against solid materials, the cratering will occur sooner and be less imposing.

High explosive bullets were delivering their energy into the target and blowing up from inside

Well strictly from the movie the explosive could just as easily have been in aid of its armor piercing capability.

It is. How is that a problem?

As well, going strictly by the movie, they are not particuarly powerful at least against anything save the Xenomorphs whom, as you've earlier noted may be under pressures to "pop" spraying lethal acid everywhere.

Some sections of their body seem to be pressurized to a degree, yes, but they're not just one big bag of juice under pressure.
Evidence used for the debate is best limited to the three first movies, as Alien Resurrection involves too much genetic tinkering to know exactly what went on.
Still, Alien showed us a harpooned xenomorph not suddenly exploding and releasing all its blood.

It is not guaranteed that blaster bolts would work in a way as to avoid making a crater on the surface of a xenomorph's body, instead of inside.

Even detonating from the surface, if displacing or ejecting the equivlent mass to form bowl shaped craters, is not something a Xenomorph is just going to shrug off. Not only did a relative large chunk of its body mass just get scattered but stress and shock likely have just been translated through the rest of its squishy organs along with presumbly thermal damage.

Oddly enough, xenomorphs are quite heat tolerant. The first xenomorph ejected from the shuttle did crawl back into one the large thrusters and wasn't seen destroyed by the heat. It was merely ejected after struggling for several seconds. Now, those engines are quite powerful.
In Alien 3, the xenomorph survived the heat of molten lead and having said material flow crashing on its head.

Abstract

The density of liquid lead was determined, by using the Archimedean principle, from its melting point to its normal boiling point. It can be expressed by the equation:
D(g/cm3)=10·678 - 13·174 x 10-4(T - 600·6°)
where T is in °K. The density of liquid lead is 10·678 g/cm3 at its melting point (600·6°K), and 8·803 g/cm3 at its boiling point (2024°K).

There are other numbers here, the lowest figure for some lead alloy being 9.585 g/cm³. On the average we can use a figure of 10 g/cm³. That's 10 tonnes per cubic meter. Ten times that of water.
Dumping the molten lead onto the head of the beast from a height of a dozen meters didn't even wound it noticeably. The creature even jumped out of the pool.

Those applications of energy, at least the thermal ones, however, are not as violent as of an explosive thermal bolt, but there's clearly going to be some mitigation going on there nonetheless, with the first Alien case being quite impressive there (we're talking about the application of a jet worth several gees straight into the body of the creature).
However, it seems that the variety inhabitating the colony wasn't of the strongest kind.

No air support dude:

A straight forward scenario. A squad of 12 stormtrooper lead by Darth Vader are wisked by Force-magic to the colony Hadley Hope with their standard kit, such as the E-11 and DLT-19 rifles, with the knowledge they will only be sent back home if they secure and clear Hadley of any Xenomorph infestation.

Per the OP if they win they go home so as long as they kill every last Xenomoprh before the reactor goes boom there isn't a problem.

How can they know for sure that they have won?
Xenomorphs are mobile after all. And let's not talk about the hiding of eggs and facehuggers!

[sonofccn]

Right. The point being the firepower delivered in a given amount of time. Stormtroopers use semi-auto, marines used short bursts, and within a second, the averaged damage-per-second of both weapons aren't too dissimilar.

Oh. Your previous statement of needing a lucky shot suggested a weaker damage per second than the Pulse rifle. Roughly comparable firepower over the duration I would find acceptable.

Not to say that the most damaging bolts fired by E-11 are about once in a pack of bolts. Many shots from the same rifles were seen merely leaving scorch marks.

Well the "high end" showings are sporadic and inconsistent no matter how you wiegh it. Personally I just chalk it all up to differnt power settings on the rifle and try not to think about it too hard.

Add that to an aim which is inferior, and the fact that unless the xenomorphs found a way to lurk around or trap the preys, they tend to avoid fire.

Xenomorphs prefer ambush tactics but they don't appear to have any hesitency about "straight brawling" should it come to it. For example the Xenomorph who tried to pry open the APC's door before Hicks blew it away with his shotgun, it may have been counting on the momentum of its attack and the confusion/disorder of its foes but it could hardly be said to be lurking or ambushing anyone.

The sentry guns scene allows to make an interesting observation: that for the complete depletion of three guns and near the entirety of the last one, that's scant corpses to be found around, like if the xenomorphs kept teasing the weapons and forcing the enemy to consume their resources.

However what little we see of the sentries in action and Hudson's comment, "they're wall to wall down there", suggest the aliens rather straightforwardly zerg rushed the guns. Further the fact the second guns in fact held, forcing the aliens to come up with the proverbial plan B, their position during the attack speaks of the Xenomorphs rushing the emplacements rather than teasing them.

There also are significant differences here. Imperials are not used to terran/UNSC tech. Not only there's no reason they could interface with its systems, or even read anything they see, but they couldn't repair anything that would involve hidden mechanical systems and electronics. Vader might recognize some systems based on simple universal elements, but for example you won't see them jack into the doors' codes.

That's a reasonable assumption yes.

Vader will have to cut holes into the base for any wall or door that is an obstacle. Xenomorphs being on standby may not even tick Vader's senses off, if he can sense anything.

Well I figure he could get a "disturbence" in the force but from range I doubt he could get any exact details unless Xenomorphs have a strong link in the force.

Vader will probably send a couple troopers for recon. They'll find the odd structures.
Either Vader sends them, they find civilians and the whole nest wakes up, but have to fight or retreat on foot, which is being to be hard or easy depending on where Vader's troops are located in the AP.
I think that they'd typically advance in a group, settle perhaps a few levels down, leave one or two men behind, find the nest and Vader would send a small recon team.

While I'd agree they'd split off into groups to more effectively cover the base once they spot the "secreted resin" I think the Stormtroopers would report and call in Vader rather than bumbling in. After all in such a scenario they wouldn't even have the lure of the colonists to draw them in, it would just be evidence of them finding "something". Vader may or may leave some troops behind to hold a secured fall back, through if I had to guess I'd hazard that like the Colonial Marines he'd be confident he could handle anything, but I don't see him trying to string Stormtroopers about the complex. Its too large with him having to few men and, by this stage, amply apparent its predominatly a ghost town negating any real need in comparison to the cost of the endeavor.

It's a rought comparison, also based on the behaviour .50 ammunition in long slabs of gelatin. At some distance, they start making a large cavity in soft material, because the bullet begins to shed its kinetic energy into the material as its trajectory becomes less efficient and friction increases. Against solid materials, the cratering will occur sooner and be less imposing.

The issue through is I don't see the comparison in your video. Two different things are happening in our examples, one is shattering a cinderblock the other punching holes in the wall, now it very well may be that a fifty caliber round will put a hole similar to what we see in TESB,adjusting for whatever material that wall is supposed to be, but as it is now I don't see how your reaching your conclusion.

It is. How is that a problem?

Well if these explosive tipped bullets use their "warhead" as a shaped charge or what have you to facilitate peferoration they can't "delivering their energy into the target and blowing up from inside" since they'd have expended it in order to get inside.

Some sections of their body seem to be pressurized to a degree, yes, but they're not just one big bag of juice under pressure.

No but such "biological oddities" very well might be amplifying the damage. As well being shot with half a dozen projectiles, who may pierce than detonate to maximize damage to soft tissue, is a bit more demanding than being speared with a solitary, none explosive harpoon.

Oddly enough, xenomorphs are quite heat tolerant.

Atleast adult warrior strains yes. The chestburster in Aliens the Marines flamed through didn't seem to fare as well.

The first xenomorph ejected from the shuttle did crawl back into one the large thrusters and wasn't seen destroyed by the heat. It was merely ejected after struggling for several seconds. Now, those engines are quite powerful.
In Alien 3, the xenomorph survived the heat of molten lead and having said material flow crashing on its head.

At least for the short term adult strains can take extreme heating and survive yes.

Those applications of energy, at least the thermal ones, however, are not as violent as of an explosive thermal bolt, but there's clearly going to be some mitigation going on there nonetheless, with the first Alien case being quite impressive there (we're talking about the application of a jet worth several gees straight into the body of the creature).

To be fair the first Alien may very well had been dead when it was "flushed" from the ship's thrusters we don't have a comparable scene as we did in the third movie to show the creature is alright. But yes Xenmorphs may be better dealt with with kenetic impacters rather than thermal-plasma weapons which would put the Stormtroopers at a disadvantage.

How can they know for sure that they have won?
Xenomorphs are mobile after all. And let's not talk about the hiding of eggs and facehuggers!

I think you over thinking the scenario. Its simply a forcesub to see how Vader and co would do arrayed against the Xenomorphs. Not Vader versus a fusion reactor or anything like that.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Add that to an aim which is inferior, and the fact that unless the xenomorphs found a way to lurk around or trap the preys, they tend to avoid fire.

Xenomorphs prefer ambush tactics but they don't appear to have any hesitency about "straight brawling" should it come to it. For example the Xenomorph who tried to pry open the APC's door before Hicks blew it away with his shotgun, it may have been counting on the momentum of its attack and the confusion/disorder of its foes but it could hardly be said to be lurking or ambushing anyone.

They're still non ranged combatants and a bit more swarm like in mindset when they have the numbers, which is quite obvious. Hence "swarm".
But if you remember the scene, the creature that actually tried to get inside the APC surprised them all. The one which attacked Drake was actually waiting. Drake swiftly turned to face the creature and blew it to hell, but the acid splashed over his face and, well, he was out.

The sentry guns scene allows to make an interesting observation: that for the complete depletion of three guns and near the entirety of the last one, that's scant corpses to be found around, like if the xenomorphs kept teasing the weapons and forcing the enemy to consume their resources.

However what little we see of the sentries in action and Hudson's comment, "they're wall to wall down there", suggest the aliens rather straightforwardly zerg rushed the guns. Further the fact the second guns in fact held, forcing the aliens to come up with the proverbial plan B, their position during the attack speaks of the Xenomorphs rushing the emplacements rather than teasing them.

Keyword is suggest. Hudson made that comment because of how fast the bullets were going down. Yet the creatures were actually strafing the guns, sort of. If they had really been "wall to wall", it would have been hugely obvious when we got to see the respective corridors around command center. There was that other darker and narrower corridor which may have not allowed the xenomorphs to draw fire and yet dodge most of it. But the point being that when they could do so, they did.
Now they're not tactical super geniuses either, but for the typical swarm monster from the 80s, that's impressive.

Vader will have to cut holes into the base for any wall or door that is an obstacle. Xenomorphs being on standby may not even tick Vader's senses off, if he can sense anything.

Well I figure he could get a "disturbence" in the force but from range I doubt he could get any exact details unless Xenomorphs have a strong link in the force.

Oh boy, the complete disconnection to the Force. Even if we assume it's everywhere in the universe, those xenomorphs may be living forms without any connection to it (no midichlorians for example). They could be akin to complete "blanks".
Surely even the Sith Lord would be at unease facing these things. That would only add a layer of terror factor of them.

If the Yuuzhan Vong are anything to look at, then the xenomorphs may not be sensed by Vader at all, if they were outside the Force.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong

Here would go the imperial troopers' main advantage in the sensor department... and not only that:

Perhaps the most notable and most objectionable trait of the Yuuzhan Vong was that they were outside of the Force as the Jedi knew it. They had no Force presence that could be sensed, and were unaffected by most Force powers that were targeted directly at them. This meant that any attempt to sense their motivation, truthfulness or determine their next course of action were futile, although it did mean that one was capable of detecting them by reaching out in the Force and determining if the person had no presence within it. Even a normally powerful telekinetic blast that was capable of launching an ordinary opponent off their feet at high speeds simply caused a Yuuzhan Vong either to stumble, or lose balance temporarily. While it was not possible to affect the Yuuzhan Vong directly through the use of the Force, it was possible to use indirect means to accomplish such a task, such as manipulating an object through telekinesis and throwing it at a Yuuzhan Vong, which would injure them, or by controlling the air in an attempt to increase the pressure, thus allowing a Jedi to, in effect, crush the Yuuzhan Vong. The only known Force techniques that seemed somehow exempt from this limitation were variations on Force lightning and the Sith technique Force net.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Midi-chlorian

"Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you'll hear them speaking to you."
Qui-Gon Jinn, to Anakin Skywalker

Midi-chlorians were intelligent microscopic life-forms that served as organelles within all living cells, existing in a symbiotic relationship with the beings they inhabited and comprising a collective consciousness among themselves. Present in all life, midi-chlorians were isomorphic on every planet that supported life. Midi-chlorians, in fact, were necessary for life to exist. They also allowed for a connection with the pervasive energy field known as the Force; in sufficient numbers, midi-chlorians could allow their symbiont organism to detect the Force, and this connection could be strengthened by quieting one's mind, allowing the midi-chlorians to "speak" to their symbiont and communicate the will of the Force.

The author of the following post also claimed:

Common misconception. The Yuuzhan Vong had midi-chlorians. Two of them were even Force-sensitive-Vongarella and Onimi. However, Yuuzhan Vong'tar or its sister world Zonama Sekot stripped the Vong of the force centuries earlier as punishment for their genocidal actions. Therefore, any Vong born afterward would have midi-chlorians, perhaps even a large enough count to weild the force, but their midis were blocked acess to using the force, thanks to Sekot's actions.

Vongarealla and Omini aren't given any page on wookieepedia although the page about Shimrra Jamaane mentions a Jester Omini, presumably from the book The Unifying Force".

So if the Yuuzhan Vong had midi-chlorians, and that they were deactivated and that alone sufficed to cut them off, then we can deduce that the vast amount of advantages Vader brought with him are simply gone here. This is the Milky Way, nor the SW galaxy. It's not his home turf, and there's even an universe fact that there can be ex-Force creatures or even entire areas.

Vader would therefore fail to sense Newt! They may still find her, though, if they enter the complex in a way similar to the Marines' and if she start to move around like she did in the movie.
Although the henchmen and scarry Vader will certainly not help unlocking the kid's babble.

Vader will probably send a couple troopers for recon. They'll find the odd structures.
Either Vader sends them, they find civilians and the whole nest wakes up, but have to fight or retreat on foot, which is being to be hard or easy depending on where Vader's troops are located in the AP.
I think that they'd typically advance in a group, settle perhaps a few levels down, leave one or two men behind, find the nest and Vader would send a small recon team.

While I'd agree they'd split off into groups to more effectively cover the base once they spot the "secreted resin" I think the Stormtroopers would report and call in Vader rather than bumbling in. After all in such a scenario they wouldn't even have the lure of the colonists to draw them in, it would just be evidence of them finding "something". Vader may or may leave some troops behind to hold a secured fall back, through if I had to guess I'd hazard that like the Colonial Marines he'd be confident he could handle anything, but I don't see him trying to string Stormtroopers about the complex. Its too large with him having to few men and, by this stage, amply apparent its predominatly a ghost town negating any real need in comparison to the cost of the endeavor.

I think most of his group would go into the weird section of the processor. They know there's something up, it's precisely a ghost town, and now there's that resin on the walls, completely at odds with the architecture.
They may find some humans still alive, which is surely going to make things go all sorts of wrong, or they'll find dead bodies if they're too late, and from there, if the nest is still playing dead, it's up to Vader to decide if they go in or not. Considering their mission, they would have to, but they'd know that they're literally inside the lair. Which means being surrounded by walls within which the strong xenomorphs hide. And there were, I think, like a hundred and thirty of them.

It's a rought comparison, also based on the behaviour .50 ammunition in long slabs of gelatin. At some distance, they start making a large cavity in soft material, because the bullet begins to shed its kinetic energy into the material as its trajectory becomes less efficient and friction increases. Against solid materials, the cratering will occur sooner and be less imposing.

The issue through is I don't see the comparison in your video. Two different things are happening in our examples, one is shattering a cinderblock the other punching holes in the wall, now it very well may be that a fifty caliber round will put a hole similar to what we see in TESB,adjusting for whatever material that wall is supposed to be, but as it is now I don't see how your reaching your conclusion.

The video gives an idea of the energy. We see what happens when the bullet goes through a material with a limited thickness. It is explosive yet not all the energy was put into the cinderblock.

It is. How is that a problem?

Well if these explosive tipped bullets use their "warhead" as a shaped charge or what have you to facilitate peferoration they can't "delivering their energy into the target and blowing up from inside" since they'd have expended it in order to get inside.

Not sure what you mean but the energy need to get inside the target still is delivered into the target no matter what. It pushes matter aside. Then the explosive detonates and leaves a hole.

Some sections of their body seem to be pressurized to a degree, yes, but they're not just one big bag of juice under pressure.

No but such "biological oddities" very well might be amplifying the damage. As well being shot with half a dozen projectiles, who may pierce than detonate to maximize damage to soft tissue, is a bit more demanding than being speared with a solitary, none explosive harpoon.

Well, we have Vasquez's and Gorman's guns. At a short distance, they were doing nothing against the body or the head of the xenos, some ricocheting with such violence that there were
Vasquez pined the head of a xeno against the wall and shot at the jaw, as well as behind and a bit above, several times, and that got it down.
Shotguns, such as Hicks', seemed to hurt the creatures off screen, although there's no confirmation of any kill. Considering the close ranges, it's quite telling.

I figure we could use an example from AR eventually, with Johner's bizarro pistol projectiles, slow moving really, but a single bullet hit the front of a xeno's head, penetrated by leaving a neat hole (with no acid pouring, although that part of the head doesn't seem to contain acid) and then exploded some time later.
I guess we shouldn't try to draw any parallel to Christie's hidden handgun, which fired a glowing bullet as well, but which didn't explode in the head of the man it went into.
Vriess' homemade shotgun, shot through a grider at a xenomorph standing above him, didn't kill the creature, although it wounded it. The girder would clearly deflect some shot so some firepower was most likely lost in the procedure.
The pressure isn't totally mad either, mind you. It doesn't make geysers of acid when "normal" bullets hit, but it will surely ruin anything within one meter of the wound.
The geysers were produced because of the explosive ammo.
Now, the blasters aren't going to help here.

Now, aside from Johner's bizarre gun, all others are typical kinetic systems.
Not really telling much as far as stormtrooper blasters are concerned, although on high yield, I'm pretty sure they'll take down a xenomorph without too much problem... unless there's an exoskeleton which can sustain thermal damage better than I thought (and this is why I eye ALIEN's finale, which reveals a lot).

Oddly enough, xenomorphs are quite heat tolerant.

Atleast adult warrior strains yes. The chestburster in Aliens the Marines flamed through didn't seem to fare as well.

Those are clearly the weakest of the lost, despite their gruesome size. But the queen... oh my, Ripley fired the gun straight into its face twice, and besides pissing it off, it didn't leave any scorch mark whatsoever.

The first xenomorph ejected from the shuttle did crawl back into one the large thrusters and wasn't seen destroyed by the heat. It was merely ejected after struggling for several seconds. Now, those engines are quite powerful.
In Alien 3, the xenomorph survived the heat of molten lead and having said material flow crashing on its head.

At least for the short term adult strains can take extreme heating and survive yes.

But the adults are most likely around a hundred. All other colonists aside from the woman were already dead, and there were some +130 of them I think.

Those applications of energy, at least the thermal ones, however, are not as violent as of an explosive thermal bolt, but there's clearly going to be some mitigation going on there nonetheless, with the first Alien case being quite impressive there (we're talking about the application of a jet worth several gees straight into the body of the creature).

To be fair the first Alien may very well had been dead when it was "flushed" from the ship's thrusters we don't have a comparable scene as we did in the third movie to show the creature is alright. But yes Xenmorphs may be better dealt with with kenetic impacters rather than thermal-plasma weapons which would put the Stormtroopers at a disadvantage.

Yes, it's possible it was dead. However, it did hold to the inside of the thruster for a couple seconds before releasing its grasp.
I'm not sure I've seen any imperial blaster deliver such heat per square centimeter, aside from the often touted girder-blasting shot of ANH, which is completely at odds with even the fact that people standing next to it didn't suffer.
It's probably one of those rare cases which make just as much sense as some ridiculous figures from vanilla Trek.

How can they know for sure that they have won?
Xenomorphs are mobile after all. And let's not talk about the hiding of eggs and facehuggers!

I think you over thinking the scenario. Its simply a forcesub to see how Vader and co would do arrayed against the Xenomorphs. Not Vader versus a fusion reactor or anything like that.

His squad's mission is to get rid of the xenomorphs. Even Ripley couldn't be sure that they were all killed by the blast. She just hoped that they all were inside the atmospheric reactor's range.
Heck, any creature moving around the bowels of the colony's hab sector wouldn't even be remotely hurt.
Worst of all, Hadley's Hope was built on LV-426, the same planet where the Engineer's carrier ship was crashed. That thing contained plenty of eggs and god knows what else (since I saw Prometheus, it's easy to speculate about the sheer amount of horrors such crafts can actually carry).

I'd be tempted to affirm that after the nuclear blast, Vader's mission has yet to be finished.

[sonofccn]

They're still non ranged combatants and a bit more swarm like in mindset when they have the numbers, which is quite obvious. Hence "swarm".

Yes. They will, numbers providing, Zerg rush their opponet if no other options are available.

But if you remember the scene, the creature that actually tried to get inside the APC surprised them all.

Sure but it still essentially charged inside the APC and had absolutely no way of knowing what it would find. It simply was not an ambush like say with Drake.

Keyword is suggest. Hudson made that comment because of how fast the bullets were going down. Yet the creatures were actually strafing the guns, sort of. If they had really been "wall to wall", it would have been hugely obvious when we got to see the respective corridors around command center. There was that other darker and narrower corridor which may have not allowed the xenomorphs to draw fire and yet dodge most of it. But the point being that when they could do so, they did.
Now they're not tactical super geniuses either, but for the typical swarm monster from the 80s, that's impressive.

Well unless I'm massively misremembering they put the sentry guns in service shafts leading to the command center they hunkered down in. I don't think we see those passages again.

Further we do have Hudson's comment, we have the few scenes of the corridors where we see Xenomorphs being blown to bits, we have the fact that C and D gun held their position which they wouldn't have if the Xenomorphs were just teasing the guns. There is simply no clear evidence supporting your supposition. At best you have one piece of circumstansial evidence, the lack of damage, to my three equally valid bits.

Oh boy, the complete disconnection to the Force. Even if we assume it's everywhere in the universe, those xenomorphs may be living forms without any connection to it (no midichlorians for example). They could be akin to complete "blanks".
Surely even the Sith Lord would be at unease facing these things. That would only add a layer of terror factor of them.

If the Yuuzhan Vong are anything to look at, then the xenomorphs may not be sensed by Vader at all, if they were outside the Force.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong

Here would go the imperial troopers' main advantage in the sensor department... and not only that:

Well not being able to sense them is one thing. But denying Vader his force powers would not be fair so by act of OP I'm waiving any issue with that.

I think most of his group would go into the weird section of the processor. They know there's something up, it's precisely a ghost town, and now there's that resin on the walls, completely at odds with the architecture.
They may find some humans still alive, which is surely going to make things go all sorts of wrong, or they'll find dead bodies if they're too late, and from there, if the nest is still playing dead, it's up to Vader to decide if they go in or not. Considering their mission, they would have to, but they'd know that they're literally inside the lair. Which means being surrounded by walls within which the strong xenomorphs hide. And there were, I think, like a hundred and thirty of them.

Well without any early warning yes Vader could walk right into and it isn't going to end pretty.

The video gives an idea of the energy. We see what happens when the bullet goes through a material with a limited thickness. It is explosive yet not all the energy was put into the cinderblock

Okay.

Not sure what you mean but the energy need to get inside the target still is delivered into the target no matter what. It pushes matter aside. Then the explosive detonates and leaves a hole.

What I mean is simple. If the explosive tip is use to "cut" a hole through armor ala some kind of shaped charge meant to maximize piercing the slug following might zip right through its target but it can't enter and then detonate again inside the target to maximize damage.

Well, we have Vasquez's and Gorman's guns. At a short distance, they were doing nothing against the body or the head of the xenos, some ricocheting with such violence that there were
Vasquez pined the head of a xeno against the wall and shot at the jaw, as well as behind and a bit above, several times, and that got it down.

Vasquez handgun through, at close range, did kill the creature. Its really only Gorman's shots which suggested imperviousness, or that Gorman is a crummy shot, and it does run into slight issues with Requiem, as you noted, where Earth weapons are reasonbly effective in downing Xenomorphs.

Shotguns, such as Hicks', seemed to hurt the creatures off screen, although there's no confirmation of any kill. Considering the close ranges, it's quite telling

Excepting the Xenomorph in the APC we don't see what he shoots with it. So its use is inconclusive on its own.

The geysers were produced because of the explosive ammo.

If you say so.

But the adults are most likely around a hundred. All other colonists aside from the woman were already dead, and there were some +130 of them I think.

That's about right. 158 colonists according to the "town's sign" which should be accurate enough for a ball park guess.

His squad's mission is to get rid of the xenomorphs. Even Ripley couldn't be sure that they were all killed by the blast. She just hoped that they all were inside the atmospheric reactor's range.
Heck, any creature moving around the bowels of the colony's hab sector wouldn't even be remotely hurt.

I'm not sure I follow. No where in the movie did it suggest anything would be standing. I know the Colonial Marine game suggested most of the colony survived intact but as far as I know that isn't Canon.

I'd be tempted to affirm that after the nuclear blast, Vader's mission has yet to be finished.

Well to each his own but this is diverging from the point of this thread. Namely Vader plus company versus Xenomorphs not Fusion bomb versus Xenomorphs.