Battle of Genosis (Force Substitution)

[l33telboi]

I do believe it's time for yet another interesting vs. debate. This one is something I thought about making as a precursor to a bigger analysis thread dealing with Starcraft. I'm a bit busy these days though, so when exactly that thread will pop up, I can't say.

In any case, on with the show. The battle of Geonosis is unfolding, but something is amiss. A nearby random omnipotent being has switched the entire Separatist army with a Terran Conferderacy army (from Starcraft). No one acts as if something is wrong though and the two sides simply fight each other as they did before.

Now then, specifics on the Terran Confederacy army. For every B1 droid, there's a Marine in its place, for every SBD a Firebat, for every Hellfire droid there is a Goliath and for every Spider thingy there's a Siege Tank.

And since there are always issues with canon when it comes to Starcraft, i'll detail the order of canon for this debate. Higher canon overrides lower canon if there's a direct contradiction, though if there is a plausible way to work around the discrepancy, you will naturally do this.

1. In game dialogue, plot, cinematics, the manual, the blizzard website, and the current info we have on Starcraft 2. Game-mechanics are not to be used.

2. The novels and the officially condoned expansions.

3. Whatever we know from Starcraft Ghost.

That's it. To give my own ideas and opinions i really need to learn more about the Clone Army, so i'll refrain from saying anything just yet.

[sonofccn]

I think the Terrans could win this.

A marine armor doesn't appear radicaly weaker then anything a clonetrooper's armor has shown and in the starcraft 2 trailer the Marine armor looks a *lot* thicker and tougher atleast in some places. I don't know enough about Terran weapons to properly compare them to blasters.

The goliath is a good all around fighitng unit with 30mm cannons for ground targets( like to see what it would do to that proto-AT-ST shown in ROTS) and missiles for air defense. Not sure of thier yield, but juding by the LAATs armament as long as it's as good as mordern day missile it should be deadly. Really the clones don't have anything to fight back at this thing short of sending in thier heavy armor or waves of infantry to peck it to death with blasters/ get in close and use explosives. Used properly this could really do some damage.

Next I would like to point out that the sepertist had fighters in the sky. So I was wondering if the terrans could employ thier wraith fighter. If so this thing will own the sky with it's cloaking device. Imagine a squad releashing a salvo of missles while under the cover of invisibility. I know Wars has sensors, but they never struck me as the most flexible in the world and I think would have a hard time adjusting in time to make a differnce in this battle. As far as arments go it packs a single laser for ground attack and teh same missiles as the Golieth for air attack.

In a comparison between an AT-TE and a seige tank in normal mode I have to give it to the clones. The AT-TE is better defended with a host of smaller caliber guns and probely can navigate the terrain better then the tank. Plus if it's as heavily armored as it's younger brother the AT-AT it can probly take a beating. One on one I'd bet on the AT-TE to walk out alive.

On the flip side of the coin however is a siege tank in siege mode, and in that state the tank is the ace card. I mean the clones do not have anything like this in thier current arsenal. By that I mean a long range not direct line of sight weapon that can rain down death and destruction from well beyond thier ability to return fire. This combined with a 1800's form a line and advance mentaility will mean most clones will not live to get into a firefight with the Terran's line

Well this is my opinion atleast.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't know much about Wraith fighter, but a cloaking device might be overkill. Depends on the other side's air vessels.

The clones have dropships which can carry AT-TEs over large zones, drop them or take them away.

The SPHATs are pointless here.

Without the new units from ROTS, the clone army has to deal with the TC by relying on LAAT's, AT-TEs and troopers.
It's not glorious at all.

When you think about the level of firepower displayed by the Republic on Geonosis, there's just no doubt that even a fully deployed UN army would literally own the clone army, if the spaceships weren't there to be counted.

[sonofccn]

I don't know much about Wraith fighter, but a cloaking device might be overkill. Depends on the other side's air vessels.

Well as far as I remember the clones only had thier LAATs which were anti-air, ground attack and transport all rolled into one. While defentily better designed then most sci-fi weapons I doubt it could survive mordern anti-air ordance juding by the (lack of) effect of it's weapons on the envirment.

[Cpl Kendall]

I don't know much about Wraith fighter, but a cloaking device might be overkill. Depends on the other side's air vessels.

Well as far as I remember the clones only had thier LAATs which were anti-air, ground attack and transport all rolled into one. While defentily better designed then most sci-fi weapons I doubt it could survive mordern anti-air ordance juding by the (lack of) effect of it's weapons on the envirment.

This might be thread necromancy but the LAAT's are shielded. I doubt a modern SAM or AAM is going to do much considering that the LAAT carrying Obi-Wan and Anikan in AOTC took several hits from the persuing Geonosian fighters before being shot down when it disembarked them at Dooku's hanger, probably because it lowered it's sheilds to let them off.

[Who is like God arbour]

This might be thread necromancy but the LAAT's are shielded. I doubt a modern SAM or AAM is going to do much considering that the LAAT carrying Obi-Wan and Anikan in AOTC took several hits from the persuing Geonosian fighters before being shot down when it disembarked them at Dooku's hanger, probably because it lowered it's sheilds to let them off.

Do you mean the same Geonosian fighters which weapon fire great effects we could admire each time they have missed their target and have hit only the sand?

[l33telboi]

This might be thread necromancy but the LAAT's are shielded. I doubt a modern SAM or AAM is going to do much considering that the LAAT carrying Obi-Wan and Anikan in AOTC took several hits from the persuing Geonosian fighters before being shot down when it disembarked them at Dooku's hanger, probably because it lowered it's sheilds to let them off.

There was also another Gunship taken out mid-flight before they got to the hangar. I doubt we would be talking about shields capable of deflecting more then double or triple digit gigajoules (at the very best).

[Cpl Kendall]

There was also another Gunship taken out mid-flight before they got to the hangar. I doubt we would be talking about shields capable of deflecting more then double or triple digit gigajoules (at the very best).

What are you basing that on? The LAAT we see downed from the inside of Obi-Wan's gunship we don't see the cause of. And we see one downed by a missile, the yeild of which is unknown.

[Cpl Kendall]

Do you mean the same Geonosian fighters which weapon fire great effects we could admire each time they have missed their target and have hit only the sand?

Say who in the what now?

[Mr. Oragahn]

There was also another Gunship taken out mid-flight before they got to the hangar. I doubt we would be talking about shields capable of deflecting more then double or triple digit gigajoules (at the very best).

What are you basing that on? The LAAT we see downed from the inside of Obi-Wan's gunship we don't see the cause of. And we see one downed by a missile, the yeild of which is unknown.

The LAAT being downed was flying along side with the other LAATs which took off from the arena.

Therefore, if it was weakened before hand, it can only be from some cannon or blaster in that arena, and we know what geonosian droids and sonic pulses were capable of: not that impressive.

After that, the whole group goes on towards the plateau where there's a whole legion of wheeled droids equipped with laser DCA.

One hit and bang! No more LAAT.

I pretty much doubt that such droids had a firepower superior to that of a geonosian fighter.

That said, when you look at what those fighters' bolts were doing on the sand dunes, or on the rock cliffs, it was clearly not impressive either.

There's no real way to walk around that. The LAATs are not true flying juggernaughts. Their advantage is in mobility, troop transport and weaponry, but certainly not shields.

[l33telboi]

What are you basing that on? The LAAT we see downed from the inside of Obi-Wan's gunship we don't see the cause of. And we see one downed by a missile, the yeild of which is unknown.

Oraghan already adressed this, but there are a few things i'd like to add. Most notably the fact that we see the LAAT being destroyed. If we're talking about massive amounts of energy, then that should also be visible when the LAAT is destroyed. Shockwaves, air turned to plasma and stuff like that would be as apparent as a kick to the head - but no. Suffice to say that we saw nothing highly impressive. Gigajoules (as in a cruise-missile equivalent) would probably be a overestimate.

[Cpl Kendall]

The LAAT being downed was flying along side with the other LAATs which took off from the arena.

Therefore, if it was weakened before hand, it can only be from some cannon or blaster in that arena, and we know what geonosian droids and sonic pulses were capable of: not that impressive.

After that, the whole group goes on towards the plateau where there's a whole legion of wheeled droids equipped with laser DCA.

One hit and bang! No more LAAT.

I pretty much doubt that such droids had a firepower superior to that of a geonosian fighter.

That said, when you look at what those fighters' bolts were doing on the sand dunes, or on the rock cliffs, it was clearly not impressive either.

There's no real way to walk around that. The LAATs are not true flying juggernaughts. Their advantage is in mobility, troop transport and weaponry, but certainly not shields.

Then why did Obi-Wan's LAAT take several hits before disembarking him? Whatever we can say about the yield of SW weapons (an argument that has been flogged to death) the gunship clearly absorbed several hits.

[Cpl Kendall]

Oraghan already adressed this, but there are a few things i'd like to add. Most notably the fact that we see the LAAT being destroyed. If we're talking about massive amounts of energy, then that should also be visible when the LAAT is destroyed. Shockwaves, air turned to plasma and stuff like that would be as apparent as a kick to the head - but no. Suffice to say that we saw nothing highly impressive. Gigajoules (as in a cruise-missile equivalent) would probably be a overestimate.

I don't really care to get into the old and stale argument about SW weapons yeilds.

[l33telboi]

I don't really care to get into the old and stale argument about SW weapons yeilds.

You don't really feel like defending your positions or rebutting my arguments? Oh, i see.

Concession accepted.

[Who is like God arbour]

Then why did Obi-Wan's LAAT take several hits before disembarking him? Whatever we can say about the yield of SW weapons (an argument that has been flogged to death) the gunship clearly absorbed several hits.

Could it be that they haven't hit important systems but unimportant systems and the "armour" on the back of the LAAT? You know that not every plane explodes at once when it is hit?

But maybe they should us the sand from Geonosis as armour.

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    (click on an image to enlarge it)

That has to be exceptionally sand if it can withstand the super-duper-hyper yields of Star Wars weapons.