Starfleet Jedi

Transporters on the Enterprise will be down for some odd reason (otherwise it wouldn't be fun) and the Pegasus is the nBSG one.

That's all, proceed.

I have to go with the Pegasus on this one.

While the Enterprise is crawling around at low warp, the Pegasus would seem to instantly appear in a system. Although there's no guarantee that the Pegasus would get the jump on Enterprise, it is practically impossible for it to happen the other way around.

Technical information about Battlestars is limited, but wee have seen then parked right next to Cylon Basestars, exchanging a frightening amount of missiles, and then live on the fight again.

Galactica, an older model has seen quite a lot of action and is still fighting.

The Enterprise has the edge in maneuverability, but that's what Vipers are for. Her future shielded comrades would laugh at Vipers, and probably missiles, too, but without shields, Vipers and Raptors could take out critical systems, allowing Pegasus to open up with its missile batteries with a good chance of hitting.

CrippledVulture wrote:While the Enterprise is crawling around at low warp, the Pegasus would seem to instantly appear in a system. Although there's no guarantee that the Pegasus would get the jump on Enterprise, it is practically impossible for it to happen the other way around.

In a tactical sense, the jump-drives nBSG employs are about the best there are out there, especially the Cylon ones that can be mounted inside fighters and make them jump multiple times in a very short time-span.

I'm not sure how fast and accurate Colonial jump-drives are though.

In any case, i don't think this will prove to be any significant factor in this debate. I mean, for the colonials to be able to get the jump on the Enterprise, it would mean that the Pegasus would have to know about the Enterprise while it in turn would remain oblvious to the threat.

Technical information about Battlestars is limited, but wee have seen then parked right next to Cylon Basestars, exchanging a frightening amount of missiles, and then live on the fight again.

Hmm, that still means we'd need some form of quantification for this. Missiles in nBSG are quite powerful though, just look at one of the Vipers cracking open an asteroid several times its own size.

So what if we use modern day missiles as a benchmark? How much more powerful are cruisemissiles when compared to anti-fighter missiles?

Of course, this may be quite moot since we know that Raiders can even carry small-sized nukes on them.

The Enterprise has the edge in maneuverability, but that's what Vipers are for. Her future shielded comrades would laugh at Vipers, and probably missiles, too, but without shields, Vipers and Raptors could take out critical systems, allowing Pegasus to open up with its missile batteries with a good chance of hitting.

The hull of the Enterprise isn't all that weak though. Remember the time when Reed and Archer used a shuttlepod door to deflect the blast of a 0.25KT blast at 25m away? And this door had only been laced with a minimal amount of what the hull of the Enterprise was comprised of, and it was not 'polarized'.

As for standard missiles, the Enterprise mounts at least 500GJ phase-canons. I say at least because the episode where the figure was given also implied that the yield was upped considerably from that, as they manage to figure out how to overload the thing safely.

And they also have photonic torpedoes, which have been said to have a yield around 39MT, that figure was from a quote on how large a crater the torp would put in an asteroid. This figure, however, is rather odd. As you can see there's a significant difference between 39MT and 0.1KT (~500GJ). And the show doesn't really imply that such a huge difference exists.

There are a lot of ways one could explain the difference. For example, Reed, while making the comment might've really just been resorting to hyperbole. Or, the phase-canons were really upped by quite a lot from 500GJ in "Silent Enemy". And the omni-directional nature of the missiles will of course affect things.

CrippledVulture wrote:I have to go with the Pegasus on this one.
While the Enterprise is crawling around at low warp, the Pegasus would seem to instantly appear in a system.

How fast is the jump drive of the Colonials? Maybe is faster than Warp 5 but it seems to take a while to be performed, the opposite of the almost instantaneous warp drive.

CrippledVulture wrote:Although there's no guarantee that the Pegasus would get the jump on Enterprise, it is practically impossible for it to happen the other way around.

Actually, it would. Do they, the Colonials, have FTL sensors? No, it seems to me that they don’t. The Cylons detected the nuclear explosion above New Caprica about one year after it happened, and they stated that they were about a light year distant, so they lack FTL sensors and it would be very unlikely for the Colonials to have them if the Cylons are more advanced. So, from the point of view of the Colonials, the NX-01 would seems to appear out of thin air, so to speak. And warp tactical maneuvers could be very bad for the Pegasus.

CrippledVulture wrote:Technical information about Battlestars is limited, but wee have seen then parked right next to Cylon Basestars, exchanging a frightening amount of missiles, and then live on the fight again.

Galactica, an older model has seen quite a lot of action and is still fighting.

But those missiles are decidedly sub-kiloton, and I’m not talking about the apparent yield out of the VFX shots, because on the mini-series they made a big deal out of a few tactical nukes fired at the Galactica, implying that nuclear weapons are not common on the battlefield. I would expect some comments about this if they were exchanging nuclear weapons on those big battles. And they relay on amour for passive defense, no shielding also, it’s pretty though since it took a tactical nuke but the Galactica was heavily damaged by it, and the NX-01 by polarizing the hull plating can take a lot the damage itself.

CrippledVulture wrote:The Enterprise has the edge in maneuverability, but that's what Vipers are for. Her future shielded comrades would laugh at Vipers, and probably missiles, too, but without shields, Vipers and Raptors could take out critical systems, allowing Pegasus to open up with its missile batteries with a good chance of hitting.

I don’t think so. Only the Raptors using missiles have any chance of damaging the NX-01, since they can take capital ship grade weapons, the weapons on board the Vipers would be next to useless. And the heaviest weapons for the Pegasus would been tactical nukes but they have a short supply of them, so they would use conventional weapons instead and going with its apparent yield, the NX-01 can take a lot of those, if the Pegasus manages to hit them, that is. And they would be facing phase cannons and photonic torpedoes, even if we accept that the later can be shot down by the Pegasus, one or two that get through would been fatal, or almost fatal, and they have no way to intercept the phase cannons.

The only real advantages for the Pegasus are its size and the jump drive, but anyway it would end as an stalemate, any side could retreat at any moment with the other unable to prevent it. And don’t tell me that warp drive is always disabled, the Galactica got its jump drive disabled above New Caprica.

AFT wrote:But those missiles are decidedly sub-kiloton

That might not be quite so weak as you think. The asteroid i mentioned earlier was big, and the missile fired at it was one launched from a mere Viper. We might very well be looking at missiles with close to kiloton yields. In other words, it's very possible the missiles are equal to phase-canons yield-wise. Delivery system is a bit worse of course.

However, to get anything definitive, we'd have to get some quantification going. Does anyone remember what episode the whole missile vs. asteroid thing was demonstrated?

one or two that get through would been fatal, or almost fatal, and they have no way to intercept the phase cannons.

IIRC, the Pegasus took a few nukes in "Captain's Hand", the yield i don't know. But depending on what photonic torps are, we could very well be looking at something very similar. The yields on the nukes might eve be higher then on the photorps.

l33telboi wrote:That might not be quite so weak as you think. The asteroid i mentioned earlier was big, and the missile fired at it was one launched from a mere Viper. We might very well be looking at missiles with close to kiloton yields. In other words, it's very possible the missiles are equal to phase-canons yield-wise. Delivery system is a bit worse of course.

However, to get anything definitive, we'd have to get some quantification going. Does anyone remember what episode the whole missile vs. asteroid thing was demonstrated?

Well, technically, very close to kiloton is still sub-kiloton. Unfortunately I don’t remember the episode you’re talking about, but I’ll try to find out.

l33telboi wrote:IIRC, the Pegasus took a few nukes in "Captain's Hand", the yield i don't know. But depending on what photonic torps are, we could very well be looking at something very similar. The yields on the nukes might eve be higher then on the photorps.

For both the Colonials and the Cylons nuclear weapons seems to be their special weapons, only used on rare occasions and available only on very short numbers, at least as naval combat goes. While for the NX-01 photonic torpedoes are their standard missile weapon, after the refit of course. On a one to one basis you may be right and the nuclear weapons of the Colonials are more powerful than the photonic torpedoes, but there are only a few of them on the Colonials' payload while the entire missile complement on the NX-01 are photonic torpedoes, or most of it in any case.

AFT wrote:
Well, technically, very close to kiloton is still sub-kiloton. Unfortunately I don’t remember the episode you’re talking about, but I’ll try to find out.

I have the episodes on DVD. The asteroid(s) are maybe around 20 meters across based on the 8 meter Viper. The asteroids are hit by missles during a practice target run, which cause each one to shatter into a variety of fragments ranging from a multi-centimeter to meter wide, and even tens of meters wide (the majority of the asteroid's volume is in the largest of the pieces. Using the SDN asteroid calculator, a fragmented igneous asteroid of 20 meters requires approximately 8 tons (roughly 33 gigajoules) of energy. A single, normal full-power phase cannon is 15 times stronger than that, and most of the energy will be focused into an area of only a few square meters at most.
-Mike

Are we talking about a fully equipped Pegasus, with all its wings of Viper Mark-VII, all of her nukes and networked computers to take on huge distance with one single jump?

Certain sources, notably behind the scene backstage info and an approved guide, I think, gave the cylon warheads a yield of 50 MT each.
Cylon Raiders could carry warheads where a fake 2 digit kiloton level EM emission fooled the Cylons in the belief of a succesful strike against Colonial One, a civilian ship with no defenses whatsoever.

The Galactica was hit by those 50 MT but it survived, though badly damaged, with internal fire and all that.
However, let's remember that large areas of the ship have been stripped off their battle armour.

The Pegasus, however, is a next generation battleship. She has forward cannons of a large caliber, able to throw a dense fire barrage at any target in front of her.
She's likely to have better armour than a 40 years old Galactica.

Then comes the flak barrage. Very few are the missiles that manage to hit the Galactica when she's raising a flak barrage. The Pegasus, if possessing any similar, or superior, system of defense grid, would be able to intercept torpedoes with enough ease, assuming those torpedoes are not armoured beyond level of scratching.

Now, the colonial warships only engage ships as equally slow as themselves, and it's not really glorious. It's like old galleons exchanging fire.
Even colonial or cylon heavy missiles struggle to perform curves.

Check out this thread for more speculation and info about BSG75's forces.

To me, manoeuvering around the Pegasus will be an easy task for the Enterprise. The Trek ship could be destroyed, but it would need to be hit first, and I can't see anything in the Pegasus being able to do so unless Archer decides to act stupidly.

Wherever the Vipers can carry mini nukes or not is the real question. Only them can actually compensate for the mothership's slugginess. They would need to intercept the N-X's trajectory, fire a barrage of nukes, and hope they'd be enough. Many Vipers might even be destroyed in the process.

Let's not forget that Galactica only had 3 nukes left at the start of the series, and had to give one to Doctor Baltar for his Cylon detector.

So, I really don't think those missiles fired by the Pegasus or the Galactica are nuclear warheads.
They have them in limited supply...

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Certain sources, notably behind the scene backstage info and an approved guide, I think, gave the cylon warheads a yield of 50 MT each.

Actually those yields are canon. They were stated on the mini-series. But the yield of 50 MT was for Cylon strategic nuclear weapons or more correctly Colonial strategic nuclear weapons, the Cylons just stole them from the Colonials. Even if they are guided, which I doubt, I don’t think they would be of any use for naval combat.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Cylon Raiders could carry warheads where a fake 2 digit kiloton level EM emission fooled the Cylons in the belief of a succesful strike against Colonial One, a civilian ship with no defenses whatsoever.

Which suggest that the weapons carried by the Raiders are tactical nukes, with yields on the kiloton range, otherwise they would have know that something was wrong if they were expecting a 50 MT blast and they only registered a very small fraction of that.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Galactica was hit by those 50 MT but it survived, though badly damaged, with internal fire and all that.
However, let's remember that large areas of the ship have been stripped off their battle armour.

The Galactica was hit by a nuke carried by a Raider, no indication whatsoever of being of the 50 MT variety, and by the reason expressed above I doubt it was. At most it survived a 2 digit kiloton level explosion and was left on a very sorry condition.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Pegasus, however, is a next generation battleship. She has forward cannons of a large caliber, able to throw a dense fire barrage at any target in front of her.
She's likely to have better armour than a 40 years old Galactica.

Better, yes, but I doubt that the Pegasus’ armor would be many times stronger than the armor or lack thereof on Galactica if they are only a generation apart.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Then comes the flak barrage. Very few are the missiles that manage to hit the Galactica when she's raising a flak barrage. The Pegasus, if possessing any similar, or superior, system of defense grid, would be able to intercept torpedoes with enough ease, assuming those torpedoes are not armoured beyond level of scratching.

The flak barrage might not be enough if they are facing photonic torpedoes, even if we assume that the Galactica survived a 50 MT warhead, one or two that get through their defense grid could potentially cripple the Pegasus, going with a maximum yield of 39 MT for photonic torpedoes. With only a photonic torpedo that hits the Pegasus is all over, its combat performance would be drastically reduced making successive hits a lot more easy.

I agree on all the other points that you make, Vipers seems now the only way that the Colonials have to win this and only if the Vipers can carry tactical nukes and they have enough of them to try and overwhelm the NX-01, not taking into account that those missiles are not that maneuverable and the NX-01 is after all an starship that doesn’t quite follow the laws of physics when maneuvering. The Pegasus is in for a nice little fight.

AFT wrote:Actually those yields are canon. They were stated on the mini-series. But the yield of 50 MT was for Cylon strategic nuclear weapons or more correctly Colonial strategic nuclear weapons, the Cylons just stole them from the Colonials. Even if they are guided, which I doubt, I don’t think they would be of any use for naval combat.

Stolen? So they don't come with anything better than that?
In the Hand of God, Baltar points to one of the refinery's silos, saying that the matter it holds there is particularily volatile. Supposedly able to trigger some nuclear reaction if ignited.

I'll have to check that, but if true, we could at least accept that the Cylons could produce some kind of nukes, adn thus would lead us to info about a battlestar's armor.

Which suggest that the weapons carried by the Raiders are tactical nukes, with yields on the kiloton range, otherwise they would have know that something was wrong if they were expecting a 50 MT blast and they only registered a very small fraction of that.

I agree that the cylon couldn't have expected anything bigger and consider its mission completed with a yield dramatically lower than planned.

The Galactica was hit by a nuke carried by a Raider, no indication whatsoever of being of the 50 MT variety, and by the reason expressed above I doubt it was. At most it survived a 2 digit kiloton level explosion and was left on a very sorry condition.

I'll have to check that, because the Galactica's been hit at several occasions.

I'll have to prepare myself for a miniseries + season1 marathon. :)

Better, yes, but I doubt that the Pegasus’ armor would be many times stronger than the armor or lack thereof on Galactica if they are only a generation apart.

It should, at least, last longer since it's fully plated, contrary to the G.

The flak barrage might not be enough if they are facing photonic torpedoes, even if we assume that the Galactica survived a 50 MT warhead, one or two that get through their defense grid could potentially cripple the Pegasus, going with a maximum yield of 39 MT for photonic torpedoes. With only a photonic torpedo that hits the Pegasus is all over, its combat performance would be drastically reduced making successive hits a lot more easy.

I haven't seen the Pegasus fire a flak barrage for the moment. I have seen all eps from season 2, none after that, and my memory is blurred.
How fortunate that I also own the S2 DVDs! :D

I agree on all the other points that you make, Vipers seems now the only way that the Colonials have to win this and only if the Vipers can carry tactical nukes and they have enough of them to try and overwhelm the NX-01, not taking into account that those missiles are not that maneuverable and the NX-01 is after all an starship that doesn’t quite follow the laws of physics when maneuvering. The Pegasus is in for a nice little fight.

The Colonials would need a kind of raptor on steroids. They're fast and agile. I supposed it's all because of that armor that the capital ships can't move faster than they do.
I'd like to see how a colonial frigate or destroyer would perform. No hangar crap. Way smaller, but still coming with heavy armor, big ass engines, flak turrets and a full array of large caliber cannons and MIRV ordinance. And a FTL drive, of course.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Stolen? So they don't come with anything better than that?
In the Hand of God, Baltar points to one of the refinery's silos, saying that the matter it holds there is particularily volatile. Supposedly able to trigger some nuclear reaction if ignited.

I'll have to check that, but if true, we could at least accept that the Cylons could produce some kind of nukes, adn thus would lead us to info about a battlestar's armor.

It was mentioned on the mini-series. I don’t quite remember the episode you mentioned, but I don’t recall that it was implied that they were working on nuclear weapons there, they were refining fuel for their FTL drives or something like that. If you have the episodes, could you be kind enough to get the exact quote?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I'll have to check that, because the Galactica's been hit at several occasions.

AFAIK, the Galactica has been hit with nuclear weapons only once, during the mini-series. It was hit with missiles plenty of times but it was never stated that those missiles were carrying nuclear warheads. And they did a big deal out of it during the mini-series.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:How fortunate that I also own the S2 DVDs! :D

Damn! I really need to stop buying Sci-Fi DVD’s but the Galactica Box Set 2.5 is just too tempting! I don’t know if I can resist it any longer!

Regarding the number of nukes the Pegasus has. I'm willing to bet quite a lot. Why? Because we know the ship had enough nukes to rearm even galactica with ground bombardment nukes. And the Pegasus was the one usually used for war, so it would make sense that it had the majority of the nukes.

As for yield of those nukes. I'm guessing we're talking about 20-50MT nukes for cap-ships, based on the episode where Adama was threatning to nuke a planet and the description of the damage involved. The description i of course don't have on hand.

And one more thing. The Viper missiles are undoubtedly considerably smaller in yield then capship launched missiles. Which is why i said it's possible for them to get up to Phase-canon yields. Accounting for size-differences and using that to peg a yield for the larger missiles would be tricky though.

Aft wrote:

Which suggest that the weapons carried by the Raiders are tactical nukes, with yields on the kiloton range, otherwise they would have know that something was wrong if they were expecting a 50 MT blast and they only registered a very small fraction of that.

If I remember correctly, those nukes that hit the Galactica were around 30 Kilotons.

And in the second episode of season 2.5, we see both Galactica and Pegasus attack two basestars and getting pummeled.
The Pegasus doesn't seem to be faring much better than the Galactica.
They both dish out and take a lot of damage, and they both use Flak barrages to protect themselves from the Cylon missiles.

AFT wrote:It was mentioned on the mini-series. I don’t quite remember the episode you mentioned, but I don’t recall that it was implied that they were working on nuclear weapons there, they were refining fuel for their FTL drives or something like that. If you have the episodes, could you be kind enough to get the exact quote?

Tylium is indeed used for fuel. It's a rare ore (the only bit they found within 12 LY), and it was said that the mian asteroid could provide reserves for years.
I think it could even be quantified.

Let's see:

Galactica - Projector Room

Tigh: This is our target.

Baltar: Cylon base.

Tigh: You're the Cylon expert. We need to destroy their military facilities.

Baltar: Without harming the tylium ore under the surface.

Tigh: Exactly.

Starbuck: A nuke would destroy the Cylons.

Baltar: But the radiation would render the ore inert. Unusable. I see your dilemma. Well, you're in luck, you know. Refined tylium contains tremendous enthalpy to the order of half a billion megajoules per kilo. If subjected to the right heat and compression, say, from a conventional warhead, you should get a suitably devastating explosion without the radioactive fallout. All we have to do is hit the right spot. Specifically, you need to hit the staging tanks for the refined tylium precursor. It's a lot more unstable than the fuel itself.

Starbuck: And where would they be?

So, that is some big boom is triggered properly. Which may not be their concern, that is, produce the biggest fireball ever.

Daydream - Baltar'sCaprica Home (>#6 is Giving him a massage)

Baltar: I need your advice o­n this o­ne.

#6: I'm flattered, Gaius, but I don't know the first thing about tylium refineries.

Baltar: Neither do I. Oh, come o­n, you must have an inkling where I should tell them to bomb.

#6: No, but god does.

Baltar: Oh, good. I suppose god doesn't want me to destroy the base, because... he's the Cylon god, right?

#6: God doesn't take sides. He o­nly wants your love. Open your heart to him and he'll show you the way.

Baltar: Be a lot simpler if you came out and told me.

#6: You must remember to surrender your ego. Remain humble.

Baltar: If you ask me, god could do with cleaning his ears out. Then he might hear what I have to say.

#6: Relax your neck.

Baltar: Why, what are you gonna do?

#6: I said relax.

Baltar: All right, but please don't-- (>#6 cracks his neck)

Galactica - Projector Room

Starbuck: Where would the staging tanks be, doctor?

Baltar: Uh... uh... there, right there. Hit any one of them and the place will go up like a three-kiloton bomb.

That said, I've been literally omiting to consider the NX's own armor. It has no shielding, that's right?
And some of the phasers output 500 gigajoules top, so the power might be even lower than 500 gigawatts?
Is that enough to damage the NX?
If that's true, it's going to be interesting.