Battlestar Pegasus vs. NX-01

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

That said, arguing 50 kt for anti capital ship warheads is absurd. If Cylon basestars can fire 50 MT at Caprica City, why can't they do the same against a slow ship, instead of wasting nuclear ordinance many orders of magnitude weaker, so the battle can last forever?
That's weird.

From what we see in "The Eye of Jupiter", the launch process, at least for a battlestar, is an exceedingly slow process, and the missles themselves are fairly large things. The dialog for Lt. Gaeta stating a 50 kt thermonuclear dedonation is canon, and no one, least of all the Cylons, thought anything unusual about it. The 50 kt raider-launched missles are considerably smaller and faster than the bigger capital ship-based ones.
-Mike

In Captain's Hand, basestars launch nukes in the blink of an eye, and they're deadly fast. If the Pegasus can fire ordnance that fast, it would clearly endanger the NX.

Gaeta, in the miniseries, reported a (faked) 50 Kt detonation, but that was for a raider shot. So his report only applies to small fighter/bomber nuclear ordnance.

See the width of the dark warheads in comparison to the glowing ejecta (beware the shaky cam):



One of those two warheads a microsecond away from impact. Notice the size of the ejecta in comparison to the size of the ship:



Subkiloton? That thing is at least as big as those megaton bombs produced in the middle fifties, if not more.

By the way, wasn't the unprepared NX literally puncturated by a 25 Kt warhead, so much that it left a big gaping hole or something?

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

In Captain's Hand, basestars launch nukes in the blink of an eye, and they're deadly fast. If the Pegasus can fire ordnance that fast, it would clearly endanger the NX.

We have seen a battlestar (the Galactica), prepare to fire missles, it is a relatively slow process. Also I might add, you seem to be confusing my statements about fighter carried ordance with capital ship based ordances.

Subkiloton? That thing is at least as big as those megaton bombs produced in the middle fifties, if not more.

And you base that on.... what? The bright flash is only a small fraction of the basestar's size.

By the way, wasn't the unprepared NX literally puncturated by a 25 Kt warhead, so much that it left a big gaping hole or something?

The NX=01 as damaged by a quarter kiloton mine explosion. The hole appears to be around 14 meters long:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =33&pos=53


The assumption here is that both ships are relatively prepared for combat. The Pegasus suddenly getting "the drop" on the NX-01 is a bit much here. If we go down that route, then the NX-01 stays at warp, and drops a photonic torpedo into the sublight Pegasus' landing bays, or up one of her many engine exaust ports. Also, we might surmise that this NX-01 is the Mirror Universe one, thus is more advanced than the regular universe one (stolen Vulcan and Andorian tech) and therefore somewhat tougher, equipped with a Suliban cloaking device, ect.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

A few things to consider on the quarter kiloton mine thing. It's not sure that it was the yield of the first bomb, and IMO it wasn't, as the question when Reed said this was "How big would the explosion have been", in other words, Archer was asking how big the boom from the second mine would have been after they had been trying to disarm it for quite some time already. They could have managed to render parts of it inert for all we know.

In my opinion, this incident is the odd man out when considering the verse as whole. Think about it, if the weapons are capable of something like 0.1 to 1KT of damage for every shot (and the enterprise i would imagine would be quite weak when compared with other races), then the Enterprise would be a broken up and floating husk after their first encounter with enemies. Not to mention that a photonic torp would pretty much vaporize them with a single hit.

But it's not only this that doesn't make sense. Later on in the same episode, Archer and Reed used a shuttlepod door with only a thin sheet of the stuff the NX hull is comprised of to shield themselves from the second blast. That too becomes strange indeed if a similar bomb is able to absolutely tear apart the hull of a starship with such ease as was seen.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

In Captain's Hand, basestars launch nukes in the blink of an eye, and they're deadly fast. If the Pegasus can fire ordnance that fast, it would clearly endanger the NX.

We have seen a battlestar (the Galactica), prepare to fire missles, it is a relatively slow process.

Probably takes some time. Depends if they have their tubes already charged or not.

Also I might add, you seem to be confusing my statements about fighter carried ordance with capital ship based ordances.

It's more that I see people insisting on the kiloton level weaponry only, even doubting the capacity for colonial capital ships about being able to use megaton level ordnance, and thus doubt that the battlestars ever faced that level of firepower. I'm not inventing anything, you can read it on the previous pages.
Now I think we get to see that the battlestars get hit by weapons which are significantly heavier than the ones fired by the raiders.

If battlestars can withstand nukes in the low to medium two digits megaton range, that's only leaves the NX torpedoes to hope cause significant damage to the colonial ship.

Subkiloton? That thing is at least as big as those megaton bombs produced in the middle fifties, if not more.

And you base that on.... what? The bright flash is only a small fraction of the basestar's size.

It's a Battlestar, and it's only a fraction that is all enough to see how big it is. A raider nuke, for example, is a fraction of the raider. A raider is roughly as big as a Viper.
A Viper is dwarfed by a Pegasus board nacelle.

Again, check the size of the flare itself, as it's about to hit the Pegasus' portside upper engine:



Now please look the size of a Viper Mark VII in comparison to the portside nacelle:



The fighters aren't even that close to the hull, since they're not casting shadows on it, in comparison to the way pipes and other extruded parts cast their own shadows, and yet they're already tiny.

The warhead is, at the very least, as big as a Viper.

Plus again there's that whole point about the fuel. Maybe the plutonium used in warheads is only part of a given stage. The refined fuel's enthalpy is impresive. That alone, part of a warhead, would be extremely devastating and help those warheads jump to megaton yields without too much issue.

By the way, wasn't the unprepared NX literally puncturated by a 25 Kt warhead, so much that it left a big gaping hole or something?

The NX=01 as damaged by a quarter kiloton mine explosion. The hole appears to be around 14 meters long:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =33&pos=53

Thanks. That's when the hull is not "polarized", right?

The assumption here is that both ships are relatively prepared for combat. The Pegasus suddenly getting "the drop" on the NX-01 is a bit much here. If we go down that route, then the NX-01 stays at warp, and drops a photonic torpedo into the sublight Pegasus' landing bays, or up one of her many engine exaust ports. Also, we might surmise that this NX-01 is the Mirror Universe one, thus is more advanced than the regular universe one (stolen Vulcan and Andorian tech) and therefore somewhat tougher, equipped with a Suliban cloaking device, ect.
-Mike

I agree. Let's stick with regular methods and ships under normal conditions.

I don't know how the Pegasus fires its warheads. It seems that its main form of attack is a frontal and continuous fire with those explosive projectiles. But they're only effective against lumbering ships. A small ship like the NX will fly around that without too much problem, and above all be able to stay out of sight of those cannons anyway.
It all boils down to the nukes.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:
We have seen a battlestar (the Galactica), prepare to fire missles, it is a relatively slow process.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Probably takes some time. Depends if they have their tubes already charged or not.

But the fact that the Galactica can't just push a button and have the 12 missles up and ready to go they way the NX-01 can with it's photonic torpedoes is a very telling thing. If the same is true of the Pegasus, that is you have to go through a long arming procedure to have them ready, then the NX-01 has a big advantage here.

Also I might add, you seem to be confusing my statements about fighter carried ordance with capital ship based ordances.

It's more that I see people insisting on the kiloton level weaponry only, even doubting the capacity for colonial capital ships about being able to use megaton level ordnance, and thus doubt that the battlestars ever faced that level of firepower. I'm not inventing anything, you can read it on the previous pages.
Now I think we get to see that the battlestars get hit by weapons which are significantly heavier than the ones fired by the raiders.

No one has actually said that they don't carry megaton range nukes, it's how those weapons can be deployed. If they are a strategic planetary bombardment weapon, which is what we saw with the Cylon basestars attacking Caprica and the other Colonies doing with them. The fact that mere fighter level ordance a thousand times weaker can actually be a threat to a battlestar is very interesting indeed.

If battlestars can withstand nukes in the low to medium two digits megaton range, that's only leaves the NX torpedoes to hope cause significant damage to the colonial ship.

Not really, even granting that a battlestar could withstand an explosion of that scale, a 1-10 TJ phase cannon attack concentrates the energy into a beam of only a couple meters or so in size.

Subkiloton? That thing is at least as big as those megaton bombs produced in the middle fifties, if not more.

And you base that on.... what? The bright flash is only a small fraction of the basestar's size.

It's a Battlestar, and it's only a fraction that is all enough to see how big it is. A raider nuke, for example, is a fraction of the raider. A raider is roughly as big as a Viper.
A Viper is dwarfed by a Pegasus board nacelle.

Again, check the size of the flare itself, as it's about to hit the Pegasus' portside upper engine:


The fighters aren't even that close to the hull, since they're not casting shadows on it, in comparison to the way pipes and other extruded parts cast their own shadows, and yet they're already tiny.

Actually, that's a blooper. Here's three fighters only a few tenths of a second from entering the Pegasus' landing bay:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image ... Res_1a.jpg

Nowhere near as small as you are trying to make them out to be relative to the battlestar.

The warhead is, at the very least, as big as a Viper.

It's at most as big as a viper. Hard to tell since the rocket flare and contrail obscure quite a bit.

Plus again there's that whole point about the fuel. Maybe the plutonium used in warheads is only part of a given stage. The refined fuel's enthalpy is impresive. That alone, part of a warhead, would be extremely devastating and help those warheads jump to megaton yields without too much issue.

I believe half a billion megajoules works out to 500 TJ per kilo, or 119 kilotons. If the Colonials and Cylons could make bombs like that out of tylium they would not need to use conventional plutonium and thermonuclear bombs. Also in "The Hand of God", Dr. Baltar makes it clear that nuclear radiation can render unprotected tylium usuable.

Thanks. That's when the hull is not "polarized", right?

Correct. Totally unprepared. But the NX-01 tactical officer can just push a button or two to polarize the hull, as well as arm all the weapons.

The assumption here is that both ships are relatively prepared for combat. The Pegasus suddenly getting "the drop" on the NX-01 is a bit much here. If we go down that route, then the NX-01 stays at warp, and drops a photonic torpedo into the sublight Pegasus' landing bays, or up one of her many engine exaust ports. Also, we might surmise that this NX-01 is the Mirror Universe one, thus is more advanced than the regular universe one (stolen Vulcan and Andorian tech) and therefore somewhat tougher, equipped with a Suliban cloaking device, ect.
-Mike

I agree. Let's stick with regular methods and ships under normal conditions.

But the NX-01 being from the Mirror Universe gives a better reason for the two to be fighting against each other in the first place. :-)

I don't know how the Pegasus fires its warheads. It seems that its main form of attack is a frontal and continuous fire with those explosive projectiles. But they're only effective against lumbering ships. A small ship like the NX will fly around that without too much problem, and above all be able to stay out of sight of those cannons anyway.
It all boils down to the nukes.

The nukes are a signficant factor to be sure, but not the only one as the NX-01 also has an advantage with it's phase cannon beam weapons, which are useful for pinpoint strikes against the Pegasus, disabling weapons, engines, the landing bays and other systems while not being vunerable to the battlestar's flack guns.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

But the fact that the Galactica can't just push a button and have the 12 missles up and ready to go they way the NX-01 can with it's photonic torpedoes is a very telling thing. If the same is true of the Pegasus, that is you have to go through a long arming procedure to have them ready, then the NX-01 has a big advantage here.

Actually, it's not far from let's just push a button:

Thorton: Base ship dead ahead, we're closing rapidly! We can't keep taking hits like this, Major.

Apollo: Helm. Steady as you go. Have the bow battery stand by for a salvo fire. Target their center axis.

Helm: Yes, sir.

Apollo: See if we can't cut down the odds. We need those FTLs fixed soon. Or we're dead.

Throton: Twenty-two hundred. Main battery has a firing solution.

Apollo: And fire.

The Pegasus fires at one of the basestars, inflicting major damage.

Within a very few seconds.
Having warheads ready shouldn't take any longer.

No one has actually said that they don't carry megaton range nukes, it's how those weapons can be deployed. If they are a strategic planetary bombardment weapon, which is what we saw with the Cylon basestars attacking Caprica and the other Colonies doing with them. The fact that mere fighter level ordance a thousand times weaker can actually be a threat to a battlestar is very interesting indeed.

Has it been proven? The times the Galactica was dramatically damaged, wasn't it because of basestars' heavy fire?

If battlestars can withstand nukes in the low to medium two digits megaton range, that's only leaves the NX torpedoes to hope cause significant damage to the colonial ship.

Not really, even granting that a battlestar could withstand an explosion of that scale, a 1-10 TJ phase cannon attack concentrates the energy into a beam of only a couple meters or so in size.

Nukes explode at impact, or critically near impact, and thus the energy radiation is concentrated on a very tiny area of the hull. That's almost 50% of the nuke's power, assuming it's not even focused to boot.
A weapon that fires 2.3 Kt won't endanger the Galactica that much.

Actually, that's a blooper. Here's three fighters only a few tenths of a second from entering the Pegasus' landing bay:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image ... Res_1a.jpg

Nowhere near as small as you are trying to make them out to be relative to the battlestar.

Fighters landing? Wikipedia says so. May you prove the claim is correct, please?
Like, by editing the picture and show, precisely, which fighters are actually "a few tenth of a second from entering the Pegasus' landing bay", for as far as I'm concerned, the fighters the closest to the nacelle aren't even flying towards the Pegasus to begin with, and according to their angle and your claim, they should have a few tenth of a second away from the hull, which is quite a formidable claim in itself, as they'd be literally comign out of inside the ship.

And no fighter is in position to land at all.

Besides, that's the prow of the nacelle. Most fighters, if not all of them, enter from the stern, especially when there's no hurry and when it's just a patrol returning home.

I posted an image which shows the width of the luminous elongated part of the ejecta, in comparison to the warhead itself. The warhead is at leastas wide as a fighter, and likely much more.

I believe half a billion megajoules works out to 500 TJ per kilo, or 119 kilotons. If the Colonials and Cylons could make bombs like that out of tylium they would not need to use conventional plutonium and thermonuclear bombs.

Apparently, it doesn't require anything more than 1 kg of refined tylium and a nearby explosion to get many kilotons of explosion.

Also in "The Hand of God", Dr. Baltar makes it clear that nuclear radiation can render unprotected tylium usuable.

The plutonium could only be a stage of the reaction mechanism(s). Tylium could be part of initial stage within the warhead, or part of a late stage, but the reaction would be so fast that the refined ore wouldn't have time to turn inert.

Correct. Totally unprepared. But the NX-01 tactical officer can just push a button or two to polarize the hull, as well as arm all the weapons.

Ok. I got lost on your calc one page ago.
4.2 was for a duration?

What's the best resistance the hull can come with once polarized?

But the NX-01 being from the Mirror Universe gives a better reason for the two to be fighting against each other in the first place. :-)

And there's a mirror universe where the Pegasus has benefited from high technology advances and can gigatons of kinetic particles in any direction. ;)

The nukes are a signficant factor to be sure, but not the only one as the NX-01 also has an advantage with it's phase cannon beam weapons, which are useful for pinpoint strikes against the Pegasus, disabling weapons, engines, the landing bays and other systems while not being vunerable to the battlestar's flack guns.
-Mike

There are many weapons to disable, and the NX won't have time to aim at all the launching tubes. The crew would first need to know where they are to boot.
Engines are just as armoured as the rest, and the ejecta will provide a cloud of matter to diffuse the NX-01's beams.
Landing bays seem to survive quite well to most battles. Even the old Galactica never faced any problem to retract them despite being hit multiple times.

I've seen an altverse episode with the TOS Enterprise and the NX-01. Needless to say that their naval tactics aren't most impressive, and the NX-01 got touched several times. That was, I supposed, for the best of the two NXes. The one in the by default realm would thus not be as good, and logically not be able to pull extraordinary evasive manoeuvers that its alt counterpart didn't achieve.

The NX-01 has the advantage of a lesser profile, far more agility and advanced weaponry. However, it's still weak in the light of colonial nukes, and one single glancing hit would be bye bye for the Trek ship.
That would be an epic and tight battle, and only the lack of data about nuclear warheads used by battlestars prevents me from deciding which ship should win.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:
But the fact that the Galactica can't just push a button and have the 12 missles up and ready to go they way the NX-01 can with it's photonic torpedoes is a very telling thing. If the same is true of the Pegasus, that is you have to go through a long arming procedure to have them ready, then the NX-01 has a big advantage here

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Actually, it's not far from let's just push a button:

Thorton: Base ship dead ahead, we're closing rapidly! We can't keep taking hits like this, Major.

Apollo: Helm. Steady as you go. Have the bow battery stand by for a salvo fire. Target their center axis.

Helm: Yes, sir.

Apollo: See if we can't cut down the odds. We need those FTLs fixed soon. Or we're dead.

Throton: Twenty-two hundred. Main battery has a firing solution.

Apollo: And fire.

The Pegasus fires at one of the basestars, inflicting major damage.

Within a very few seconds.
Having warheads ready shouldn't take any longer.

Nice try, but have you seen this episode? The Pegasus is already some time into combat with Cylon basestars when Lee takes command and orders the above. Now it's possible that the Pegasus is somewhat faster at arming than the Galactica due to the greater use of automation, but from what I've seen, that doesn't necessarily apply to the nukes, which as shown in "The Eye of Jupiter", is an arming procedure akin to our current-day nuclear missle launch protocols.

No one has actually said that they don't carry megaton range nukes, it's how those weapons can be deployed. If they are a strategic planetary bombardment weapon, which is what we saw with the Cylon basestars attacking Caprica and the other Colonies doing with them. The fact that mere fighter level ordance a thousand times weaker can actually be a threat to a battlestar is very interesting indeed.

Has it been proven? The times the Galactica was dramatically damaged, wasn't it because of basestars' heavy fire?

Actually, in the mini-series, the Galactica's port flight pod is suffers heavy damage to the forward section (the ship is nearly lost due to the secondary effects from the internal fires and such) from the nuke launched by a mere Cylon raider, and suggesting strongly that a hit by a 50 kt nuke is sufficent cause dangerously threatening damage to a battlestar.

If battlestars can withstand nukes in the low to medium two digits megaton range, that's only leaves the NX torpedoes to hope cause significant damage to the colonial ship.

Not really, even granting that a battlestar could withstand an explosion of that scale, a 1-10 TJ phase cannon attack concentrates the energy into a beam of only a couple meters or so in size.

Nukes explode at impact, or critically near impact, and thus the energy radiation is concentrated on a very tiny area of the hull. That's almost 50% of the nuke's power, assuming it's not even focused to boot.
A weapon that fires 2.3 Kt won't endanger the Galactica that much.

Actually, the explosion geometries will likely send the energies out over a much wider surface area than the concentrated beam of a phase cannon. Also the nuke explosion will be over in a few seconds at most, while phase cannons can be made to dwell on the targeted area for as long as necessary. So you really would have from a nuke bomb of 50 KT something like 2.1 TJ per meter square, whereas the NX-01 would be able to concentrate up to 5 to 10 TJ per meter^2, and remember a phase cannon beam can dwell on a spot.

Actually, that's a blooper. Here's three fighters only a few tenths of a second from entering the Pegasus' landing bay:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image ... Res_1a.jpg

Nowhere near as small as you are trying to make them out to be relative to the battlestar.

Fighters landing? Wikipedia says so. May you prove the claim is correct, please?

Like, by editing the picture and show, precisely, which fighters are actually "a few tenth of a second from entering the Pegasus' landing bay", for as far as I'm concerned, the fighters the closest to the nacelle aren't even flying towards the Pegasus to begin with, and according to their angle and your claim, they should have a few tenth of a second away from the hull, which is quite a formidable claim in itself, as they'd be literally comign out of inside the ship.

No need. There are clearly three fighters (in the triad formation) that are about to enter the landng bay. Just simply watch the episode "The Pegasus" to see for yourself.

And no fighter is in position to land at all.

Besides, that's the prow of the nacelle. Most fighters, if not all of them, enter from the stern, especially when there's no hurry and when it's just a patrol returning home.

They are landing, or about to. Just watch the episode.


I posted an image which shows the width of the luminous elongated part of the ejecta, in comparison to the warhead itself. The warhead is at leastas wide as a fighter, and likely much more.

I believe half a billion megajoules works out to 500 TJ per kilo, or 119 kilotons. If the Colonials and Cylons could make bombs like that out of tylium they would not need to use conventional plutonium and thermonuclear bombs.

Apparently, it doesn't require anything more than 1 kg of refined tylium and a nearby explosion to get many kilotons of explosion.

Possibly, but a nuclear dedonation's hard radiation renders it inert and therefore useless. It' probably not something the Colonials know how to shield against, or they would use tylium as a warhead component.

Also in "The Hand of God", Dr. Baltar makes it clear that nuclear radiation can render unprotected tylium usuable.

The plutonium could only be a stage of the reaction mechanism(s). Tylium could be part of initial stage within the warhead, or part of a late stage, but the reaction would be so fast that the refined ore wouldn't have time to turn inert.

Yet there is no mention of any such technique, ala a staged fusion nuke for such a warhead.

Correct. Totally unprepared. But the NX-01 tactical officer can just push a button or two to polarize the hull, as well as arm all the weapons.

Ok. I got lost on your calc one page ago.
4.2 was for a duration?

What's the best resistance the hull can come with once polarized?

We don't know. The NX class has stayed in long firefights with the superior Klingon and Vulcan ships, but that doesn't tell us much since the those vessel's beam weapon firepower has never been quantified the way the NX class has. We just know that they are much more powerful.

4.2 is not a duration. It's the number terajoules in a kiloton.

But the NX-01 being from the Mirror Universe gives a better reason for the two to be fighting against each other in the first place. :-)

And there's a mirror universe where the Pegasus has benefited from high technology advances and can gigatons of kinetic particles in any direction. ;)

Except that that universe isn't canon. The Mirror-NX-01 is. :-)

The nukes are a signficant factor to be sure, but not the only one as the NX-01 also has an advantage with it's phase cannon beam weapons, which are useful for pinpoint strikes against the Pegasus, disabling weapons, engines, the landing bays and other systems while not being vunerable to the battlestar's flack guns.
-Mike

There are many weapons to disable, and the NX won't have time to aim at all the launching tubes. The crew would first need to know where they are to boot.

The flack weapons are not a serious threat. They're purposes is to provide defense against missle and fighter attack. The bow guns would be a primary target, as would the missle silos themselves. If the missles should be launched before they can be destroyed, then the NX-01 jumps to warp and stays there for a while while the missles fly around uselessly until fuel exaustion, then the NX jumps back to sublight and continues attacking, or attacks from warp.

Engines are just as armoured as the rest, and the ejecta will provide a cloud of matter to diffuse the NX-01's beams.
Landing bays seem to survive quite well to most battles. Even the old Galactica never faced any problem to retract them despite being hit multiple times

.

Except that phase cannon beams do not seem to work that way. They are particle beam weapons, not LASERS.

The retraction of the bays is for jump purposes they are not retracted until the ship is to jump. To date the Cylons have not used their TOS cousin's tactic of ramming the flight bays and disabling them. Were I in command of an NX, I would be targetting the launch and landing bays ASAP. They engines also are potentially vunerable to having a photonic torpedo or two sent "up the tailpipe" as well, thus bypassing the armor, if need be.

I've seen an altverse episode with the TOS Enterprise and the NX-01. Needless to say that their naval tactics aren't most impressive, and the NX-01 got touched several times. That was, I supposed, for the best of the two NXes. The one in the by default realm would thus not be as good, and logically not be able to pull extraordinary evasive manoeuvers that its alt counterpart didn't achieve.

There is no such episode, Oragan. You mean "In Mirror, Darkly, Parts I & II" with the Constitution class Defiant being used to plummel the far less advanced ships of the Tholians and Rebel fleet? Do you mean the Mirror NX-01 getting hit because it was trapped in the Tholian's web, rendering it largely helpless?

The NX-01 has the advantage of a lesser profile, far more agility and advanced weaponry. However, it's still weak in the light of colonial nukes, and one single glancing hit would be bye bye for the Trek ship.

You still have not proved that the Colonials have any such nukes that they can deploy so quickly, and polarizing the hull does not take very long at all. Since the NX-01 has been in close proximity to a black hole and survived ("Singularity" ST:ENT2), I don't think the tac nukes of the Colonials will be a serious problem with just mere "glancing blows".

That would be an epic and tight battle, and only the lack of data about nuclear warheads used by battlestars prevents me from deciding which ship should win.

The Pegasus' real advantage is not in her nukes, it is in her fighters, and their shear numbers that can provide a long enough distraction so that the battlestar can bring her weapons to bear on the Earth Starfleet vessel.
-Mike

[AFT]

OK. So far we got:
NX-01: Phase cannons 2.3 KT per shot for the forward main batteries. Photonic torpedoes 39 MT maximum yield. Pegasus: Vipers and Raptors sub-kiloton conventional warheads, capacity to carry nuclear missiles unknown, but Cylon Raiders can carry missiles with tactical nuclear warheads of 50 KT. Capital grade missiles both conventional and nuclear warheads, yield unknown, but the yield of the weapons used to bomb the Twelve Colonies was of 50 MT, from weapons of Colonial origin.
So, both ships might have nuclear level weaponry but for one those are its standard weapons while for the other those are its last resort weapons. That is the main difference between them, the NX-01 is simply a level above the Pegasus. It will take some time and the starship will take serious damage but at the end the NX-01 will win this one, not necessarily destroying completely the Pegasus, crippling her enough will do just fine.
But before you say something, the Pegasus won’t open the battle with nuclear weapons as shown on the series (the Cylons doesn’t count obviously) and the NX-01 won’t use photonic torpedoes right away, they’ll start with the phase cannons, but that’s already kiloton level weaponry superior to the conventional missiles normally carried by Vipers and Raptors (as per Mike’s posts) leaving them next to useless until they can rearm with nuclear weapons, but that will take time. Soon enough both sides would realize that their opening weaponry is not enough, but while the Pegasus will take some time to shift from conventional to nuclear warheads, the NX-01 will shift to photonic torpedoes almost instantaneously, getting the upper hand, by the time the Pegasus is ready to fire its nuclear weapons will be already too late.
As for the Pegasus withstanding double digit megaton explosions, the Galactica was seriously damaged by a 50 KT nuke from a Cylon Raider, so the Pegasus is a thousand times more resilient than the Galactica? Not likely. As for the defense grid of the Pegasus shooting down the photonic torpedoes, as soon as Reed notices that, Archer will order to take out the AA weapons with the phase cannons and no matter how strong the Pegasus armor is, the flak cannons are vulnerable to pinpoint attacks even if normally those are under armored hatches, in order to fire they have to raise above the hull, coupled with the superior maneuverability of the NX-01 that shouldn’t be much of a problem, without its AA weapons the Pegasus is done for, the NX-01 will get clear shots for its photonic torpedoes. Again, this is the main difference, each and all of the NX-01 torpedoes will be MT level weaponry, while the missiles fired by the Pegasus will not, as nuclear warheads are not the majority of its payload, otherwise they would be using nukes all the time, something that they clearly don’t do.
So there, tear it apart as you please.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Nice try, but have you seen this episode? The Pegasus is already some time into combat with Cylon basestars when Lee takes command and orders the above.

There's no proof any solution was prepared before the order was given. For all evidence accounted, Garner didn't give any order of that vein, and once Adama passed his, he clearly said to have a solution stand by for firing.
After a few seconds, the battery had several rounds ready for a salvo. That prep would have been non existent if the rounds were already prepared before hand. He'd just have ordered the ship to fire from the get go.

Now it's possible that the Pegasus is somewhat faster at arming than the Galactica due to the greater use of automation, but from what I've seen, that doesn't necessarily apply to the nukes, which as shown in "The Eye of Jupiter", is an arming procedure akin to our current-day nuclear missle launch protocols.

I haven't seen EoJ, and limiting my exposure to spoilers, I'll try to get an answer as simple as possible. Was it the Galactica arming those nukes?
Plus as you said, automatised systems can help. The Pegasus could be 30~35 years younger than the Galactica. That's a lot of time to improve systems, especially over ships which were non reliant on computers, especially networked computers.

After all, a Mercury class is twice bigger than the Galactica, but only need half the crew.

This explains the efficiency.

Has it been proven? The times the Galactica was dramatically damaged, wasn't it because of basestars' heavy fire?

Actually, in the mini-series, the Galactica's port flight pod is suffers heavy damage to the forward section (the ship is nearly lost due to the secondary effects from the internal fires and such) from the nuke launched by a mere Cylon raider, and suggesting strongly that a hit by a 50 kt nuke is sufficent cause dangerously threatening damage to a battlestar.

Ah, yes, I remember. A port side which lacks the external layers of armor, and which the exposed structure can be destroyed from the inside by a mere pack of C4 (Water).

We're not talking about a younger and fully armoured warship.

Nukes explode at impact, or critically near impact, and thus the energy radiation is concentrated on a very tiny area of the hull. That's almost 50% of the nuke's power, assuming it's not even focused to boot.
A weapon that fires 2.3 Kt won't endanger the Galactica that much.

Actually, the explosion geometries will likely send the energies out over a much wider surface area than the concentrated beam of a phase cannon.

Not that much for a point impact.

Also the nuke explosion will be over in a few seconds at most, while phase cannons can be made to dwell on the targeted area for as long as necessary. So you really would have from a nuke bomb of 50 KT something like 2.1 TJ per meter square, whereas the NX-01 would be able to concentrate up to 5 to 10 TJ per meter^2, and remember a phase cannon beam can dwell on a spot.

The fact that the nuke explosion will happen within a fraction of a second will actually mean much more power than a Trek canon. The yield is not all.

No need. There are clearly three fighters (in the triad formation) that are about to enter the landng bay. Just simply watch the episode "The Pegasus" to see for yourself.
+
They are landing, or about to. Just watch the episode.

Nice bluff, but you hardly convince that you watched it at all.

I have the episode on DVD. I have the sequence taken in cap by wiki.

There's no any single fighter about to land at all.

As I said, they're even smaller than fighters located closer to the Pegasus. Even without the video, it's simply geometrically impossible for that triad of Vipers to be about to land, when there are other Vipers, further away from the camera, visible with the Pegasus' nacelle beyond them in the background, and they're cleary not fused into the Pegasus.

So my point stands. Wiki is talking crap, I have all the episode at hand and there's nothing such as Vipers about to land in that sequence.

You're not even willing to prove wiki's absurd claim, so let's look at screencaps I took to put it to rest once and for all:

Fighters flying before the portside nacelle:



Fighters flying along the nacelle's stern:



Compared to wiki's BS about fighters landing:

Clicky!

So now, let's look again at the cap of the cylon nuke and really think about its size:

Apparently, it doesn't require anything more than 1 kg of refined tylium and a nearby explosion to get many kilotons of explosion.

Possibly, but a nuclear dedonation's hard radiation renders it inert and therefore useless. It' probably not something the Colonials know how to shield against, or they would use tylium as a warhead component.

We don't know what they use as a warhead component, and if tylium is used for the first stage, it will work nice. Plus we don't know how long it takes for tylium to become inert. For all we know, it could be a chain reaction triggered by the hard radiation, not something immediate, so tylium could be part of the final stage of a heavy warhead's reaction.

The plutonium could only be a stage of the reaction mechanism(s). Tylium could be part of initial stage within the warhead, or part of a late stage, but the reaction would be so fast that the refined ore wouldn't have time to turn inert.

Yet there is no mention of any such technique, ala a staged fusion nuke for such a warhead.

There's no lack of such either, so there's plenty of room left to wiggle with largely plausible theories.

Ok. I got lost on your calc one page ago.
4.2 was for a duration?

What's the best resistance the hull can come with once polarized?

We don't know. The NX class has stayed in long firefights with the superior Klingon and Vulcan ships, but that doesn't tell us much since the those vessel's beam weapon firepower has never been quantified the way the NX class has. We just know that they are much more powerful.

How do we know that?

4.2 is not a duration. It's the number terajoules in a kiloton.

Ah, ok, I'm much more used to 4.184.

Except that that universe isn't canon. The Mirror-NX-01 is. :-)

There's an infinite amount of universes I suppose, so mine can only be as canon as any variant shown onscreen.
That said, it's clear we're not fiddling with altverses.

There are many weapons to disable, and the NX won't have time to aim at all the launching tubes. The crew would first need to know where they are to boot.

The flack weapons are not a serious threat. They're purposes is to provide defense against missle and fighter attack. The bow guns would be a primary target, as would the missle silos themselves.

They'd have to wait for salvos to be fired before they'd know where they are.

If the missles should be launched before they can be destroyed, then the NX-01 jumps to warp and stays there for a while while the missles fly around uselessly until fuel exaustion, then the NX jumps back to sublight and continues attacking, or attacks from warp.

Attack from warp. Please prove it's a natural tactic, especially when it should be useful to the NX-01 when it's in great danger.

That said, the Pegasus jumps away (like 40 LY in less than two minutes), and repairs itself, and both ships loose contact and it's a draw.

Engines are just as armoured as the rest, and the ejecta will provide a cloud of matter to diffuse the NX-01's beams.
Landing bays seem to survive quite well to most battles. Even the old Galactica never faced any problem to retract them despite being hit multiple times

.

Except that phase cannon beams do not seem to work that way. They are particle beam weapons, not LASERS.

That's just going to be particles sent into ejected plasma. How's that supposed to arrange anything?

Were I in command of an NX, I would be targetting the launch and landing bays ASAP. They engines also are potentially vunerable to having a photonic torpedo or two sent "up the tailpipe" as well, thus bypassing the armor, if need be.

Vipers can intercept them. Flak can shoot them down. Ejecta may even burn them.

There is no such episode, Oragan. You mean "In Mirror, Darkly, Parts I & II" with the Constitution class Defiant being used to plummel the far less advanced ships of the Tholians and Rebel fleet? Do you mean the Mirror NX-01 getting hit because it was trapped in the Tholian's web, rendering it largely helpless?

I'm talking about that episode where there's a bipedal lizard in the Enterprise, and where in the end, a Kirkized Archer is killed drinking poison after having sex with the asian chick.
It's from the episode for which you even linked to screencaps.

The NX-01 has the advantage of a lesser profile, far more agility and advanced weaponry. However, it's still weak in the light of colonial nukes, and one single glancing hit would be bye bye for the Trek ship.

You still have not proved that the Colonials have any such nukes that they can deploy so quickly, and polarizing the hull does not take very long at all. Since the NX-01 has been in close proximity to a black hole and survived ("Singularity" ST:ENT2), I don't think the tac nukes of the Colonials will be a serious problem with just mere "glancing blows".

Proximity to a black hole means jack until you get a good estimate of the distance and the radiations. Unless you're talking like critically close to the accretion disk, this is dismissable.

As for deployment, again, it doesn't seem to take that long, besides a few seconds, to get weapons ready for standby, and if that's a real problem, the Pegasus has enough armor to withstand the NX-01's attacks to get nukes ready.

That would be an epic and tight battle, and only the lack of data about nuclear warheads used by battlestars prevents me from deciding which ship should win.

The Pegasus' real advantage is not in her nukes, it is in her fighters, and their shear numbers that can provide a long enough distraction so that the battlestar can bring her weapons to bear on the Earth Starfleet vessel.
-Mike[/quote]

And what are the nukes supposed to be safe an advantage then? How are they supposed to destroy the NX-01? With frakin' harsh language maybe?

Btw, you say polarized hull. Are all surfaces polarized? What about those multiples windows? What about the nacelles themselves, or the impulse engines? Are you telling me that they have glass that can resist this kind of damage:

[l33telboi]

Btw, you say polarized hull. Are all surfaces polarized? What about those multiples windows? What about the nacelles themselves, or the impulse engines? Are you telling me that they have glass that can resist this kind of damage:

It would seem so, seeing as how they can take quite a few torps/beams before any serious deformation. Logical? Heck no, but so it would seem.

Btw, regarding nuke impacts, that's a one sixth of the nukes entire yield that will go onto a completly flat surface right, and that over quite a large area? Beams in the Kt range will most likely be quite devastating, just because of the narrow and concentrated area to which they apply the damage.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Nice try, but have you seen this episode? The Pegasus is already some time into combat with Cylon basestars when Lee takes command and orders the above.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
There's no proof any solution was prepared before the order was given. For all evidence accounted, Garner didn't give any order of that vein, and once Adama passed his, he clearly said to have a solution stand by for firing.
After a few seconds, the battery had several rounds ready for a salvo. That prep would have been non existent if the rounds were already prepared before hand. He'd just have ordered the ship to fire from the get go.

There's a massive difference between ordering a firing solution and preparing the guns themselves for firing. In Star Trek it's the difference between a captain ordering the phasers and photon torpedoes armed on Red Alert, and then actually having the tactical officer target a specific ship, or specifc targets on said ship.

Now it's possible that the Pegasus is somewhat faster at arming than the Galactica due to the greater use of automation, but from what I've seen, that doesn't necessarily apply to the nukes, which as shown in "The Eye of Jupiter", is an arming procedure akin to our current-day nuclear missle launch protocols.

I haven't seen EoJ, and limiting my exposure to spoilers, I'll try to get an answer as simple as possible. Was it the Galactica arming those nukes?
Plus as you said, automatised systems can help. The Pegasus could be 30~35 years younger than the Galactica. That's a lot of time to improve systems, especially over ships which were non reliant on computers, especially networked computers.

Yes. The Pegasus is long destroyed by the time of EoJ. And I've already admitted to the possibility of the Pegasus have a faster reaction time. That being said, the Galactica has to arm and bring the missle silos and launchers on-line as part of the bluff to destroy the Temple of the Five as well as the Eye of Jupiter (artifact) itself.

I'am trying to find a picture on Sci Fi Flare or the Battlestar Wiki of the launch prep for the missles. The best I can do so far is the initial opening of the tubes:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image ... tubes1.jpg

There is also this shot of the missles being moved into position on the launcher rails out of the silos:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image ... tubes1.jpg

The Battlestar Wiki entry:

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Image ... tubes1.jpg


There are twelve missles in all.

The discription of the launch authorization procedure:

Nuclear Ordnance
Nuclear Groundstrike Missiles being moved into firing positionWith nuclear ground strike missiles loaded in the tubes and ready to launch with the appropriate target information, the command authority must then specifically authorize the release of such weapons.

Following authorization, the safety protocols on both the launch systems and the warheads themselves are disabled by the Tactical Officer, following the CO's order.

The two most senior officers aboard ship, usually the Commanding Officer and the Executive Officer, then input their firing codes. The final stage is for the firing key to be inserted into the master control console and turned, thus initiating the launch sequence. The order to fire is given by the CO.

After all, a Mercury class is twice bigger than the Galactica, but only need half the crew.

This explains the efficiency.

Not necessarily. The launch authorization procedures as described above show that automation only goes so far here. Also note again the launch authorization parallels to our modern day nuclear strike authorization procedures.

This is not just a "push button" affair.

Has it been proven? The times the Galactica was dramatically damaged, wasn't it because of basestars' heavy fire?

Actually, in the mini-series, the Galactica's port flight pod is suffers heavy damage to the forward section (the ship is nearly lost due to the secondary effects from the internal fires and such) from the nuke launched by a mere Cylon raider, and suggesting strongly that a hit by a 50 kt nuke is sufficent cause dangerously threatening damage to a battlestar.

Ah, yes, I remember. A port side which lacks the external layers of armor, and which the exposed structure can be destroyed from the inside by a mere pack of C4 (Water).

Not really. Part of the area struck has a fair amount of armor covering the upper surface. The roughly 40 x 100 meter section right below the ship's name plate still bears the blackened scar from the nuke blast. Take a look this overhead image of the port flight pod (still pristine in this image):

http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/8/8b/Hanger.JPG

We're not talking about a younger and fully armoured warship.

Maybe. But the Galactica was stated to be enough on her own to still be able to seriously damage the Pegasus, and leave her vunerable to Cylon attack. The Big G maybe older, but she still is quite capable and comparable. A raider launched kilotons yeild nuke can threaten a battlestar, if it should get past the flak gun screen.

Actually, the explosion geometries will likely send the energies out over a much wider surface area than the concentrated beam of a phase cannon.

Not that much for a point impact

Given what we see of the big G's flight pod damage. The explosion covered a roughly 40 x 100 meter elliptical area (I'am actually undersizing the blast damage some given the size of the 615 m long flight pod). But give that, a 40 x 100 area would give us 4,000 meters square surface area "burned" by the 50 kt nuke. That's 210,000 gigajoules divided by 2 (only half the explosion will go to the big G flight pod), then spread the remaining 105, 000 GJ over 4,000 square meters, or 26.25 GJ per meter square.

Now an NX class phase cannon on overload can manage about 5 TJ per meter^2, or 120 times more energy delivered to the armor than the nuke. The NX-01 could, in theory, drill through the Galactica's armor, if not the Pegasus'.

Also the nuke explosion will be over in a few seconds at most, while phase cannons can be made to dwell on the targeted area for as long as necessary. So you really would have from a nuke bomb of 50 KT something like 2.1 TJ per meter square, whereas the NX-01 would be able to concentrate up to 5 to 10 TJ per meter^2, and remember a phase cannon beam can dwell on a spot.

The fact that the nuke explosion will happen within a fraction of a second will actually mean much more power than a Trek canon. The yield is not all.

Yes, there is that. But the explosion will be gone in a fraction of a second. As I calculated above, 26.25 GJ is the energy actually being delivered. So really, 1/100th of a second will mean 2.25 TW, which will be gone seconds. The phase cannon beam, on the other hand, can continously fire, and dwell on a specific spot.

But this is the NX-01 merely trying to "brute force" it's way past armor, which is a waste of time. Firing at specific targets with a mind to disabling the Pegasus is the more logical way to go, and the NX-01's sensors, dispite being more primitive than the other Trek series' ships, still can read weapons and other specific potential targets.

No need. There are clearly three fighters (in the triad formation) that are about to enter the landng bay. Just simply watch the episode "The Pegasus" to see for yourself.
+
They are landing, or about to. Just watch the episode.

Nice bluff, but you hardly convince that you watched it at all.

I have the episode on DVD. I have the sequence taken in cap by wiki.

There's no any single fighter about to land at all.

As I said, they're even smaller than fighters located closer to the Pegasus. Even without the video, it's simply geometrically impossible for that triad of Vipers to be about to land, when there are other Vipers, further away from the camera, visible with the Pegasus' nacelle beyond them in the background, and they're cleary not fused into the Pegasus.

So my point stands. Wiki is talking crap, I have all the episode at hand and there's nothing such as Vipers about to land in that sequence.

You're not even willing to prove wiki's absurd claim, so let's look at screencaps I took to put it to rest once and for all:

I did. I simply asked you to go look at the episode. There are three vipers which turn on axis after the intial encounter. They then face right at the opening, and start inside before the jump cut.

Fighters flying before the portside nacelle:



Fighters flying along the nacelle's stern:



Compared to wiki's BS about fighters landing:



So now, let's look again at the cap of the cylon nuke and really think about its size:

You can't hotlink like that. That's why I don't do that from that and certainother websites. Anyway, even if we go with your scaling, how does that help your case for megaton-level nukes?

We don't know what they use as a warhead component, and if tylium is used for the first stage, it will work nice. Plus we don't know how long it takes for tylium to become inert. For all we know, it could be a chain reaction triggered by the hard radiation, not something immediate, so tylium could be part of the final stage of a heavy warhead's reaction.

We do know for sure that plutonium is a critical component of the

The plutonium could only be a stage of the reaction mechanism(s). Tylium could be part of initial stage within the warhead, or part of a late stage, but the reaction would be so fast that the refined ore wouldn't have time to turn inert.

Yet there is no mention of any such technique, ala a staged fusion nuke for such a warhead.

There's no lack of such either, so there's plenty of room left to wiggle with largely plausible theories.

Ok. I got lost on your calc one page ago.
4.2 was for a duration?

What's the best resistance the hull can come with once polarized?

We don't know. The NX class has stayed in long firefights with the superior Klingon and Vulcan ships, but that doesn't tell us much since the those vessel's beam weapon firepower has never been quantified the way the NX class has. We just know that they are much more powerful.

How do we know that?

Because it has been stated and shown over and over that Vulcan and Klingon technology is generally much better than Earth 22nd century tech. The Klingons in "Judgement" even consider the NX-01's phase cannons as "Low-yield particle cannons".

Except that that universe isn't canon. The Mirror-NX-01 is. :-)

There's an infinite amount of universes I suppose, so mine can only be as canon as any variant shown onscreen.
That said, it's clear we're not fiddling with altverses.

Ah, no. This is about what is established in the stories, and there are no alternate universe nBSG stories. But there are plenty of ST Mirror universe stories. However, to avoid complications, I'll go with the presumption that this is the regular universe, peace and exploration NX-01.

There are many weapons to disable, and the NX won't have time to aim at all the launching tubes. The crew would first need to know where they are to boot.

The flack weapons are not a serious threat. They're purposes is to provide defense against missle and fighter attack. The bow guns would be a primary target, as would the missle silos themselves.

They'd have to wait for salvos to be fired before they'd know where they are.

If the missles should be launched before they can be destroyed, then the NX-01 jumps to warp and stays there for a while while the missles fly around uselessly until fuel exaustion, then the NX jumps back to sublight and continues attacking, or attacks from warp.

Attack from warp. Please prove it's a natural tactic, especially when it should be useful to the NX-01 when it's in great danger.

Not terribly useful when other starships can follow you into warp. The tactic works best when you are up against an opponent who cannot do that, as happened in TOS' "Elann of Troyius":


http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarpturn.html

That said, the Pegasus jumps away (like 40 LY in less than two minutes), and repairs itself, and both ships loose contact and it's a draw.

Yes, a draw is also possible.

Except that phase cannon beams do not seem to work that way. They are particle beam weapons, not LASERS.

That's just going to be particles sent into ejected plasma. How's that supposed to arrange anything?

Because the beam could remain more coherent and become less dispersed than a laser. The forward phase cannon batteries firing at a large asteroid while the ship is in the accretion disk:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=559

Note all the gas and debris, and yet the phase cannon beams remain fine and effective. The rock after being shattered:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=560

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=561

No problems there.

Were I in command of an NX, I would be targetting the launch and landing bays ASAP. They engines also are potentially vunerable to having a photonic torpedo or two sent "up the tailpipe" as well, thus bypassing the armor, if need be.

Vipers can intercept them. Flak can shoot them down. Ejecta may even burn them.

Photonic torpedoes are not the same as BSG missles or the older ST:ENT Triton class spatial torpedoes. They are an early form of photon torpedo, and may even have their own form of shielding as evidenced by their glow:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtorpsh.html

There is no such episode, Oragan. You mean "In Mirror, Darkly, Parts I & II" with the Constitution class Defiant being used to plummel the far less advanced ships of the Tholians and Rebel fleet? Do you mean the Mirror NX-01 getting hit because it was trapped in the Tholian's web, rendering it largely helpless?

I'm talking about that episode where there's a bipedal lizard in the Enterprise, and where in the end, a Kirkized Archer is killed drinking poison after having sex with the asian chick.
It's from the episode for which you even linked to screencaps.

That's IaMD part 2 you're talking about. What "naval tactics" are you talking about about?

The NX-01 has the advantage of a lesser profile, far more agility and advanced weaponry. However, it's still weak in the light of colonial nukes, and one single glancing hit would be bye bye for the Trek ship.

You still have not proved that the Colonials have any such nukes that they can deploy so quickly, and polarizing the hull does not take very long at all. Since the NX-01 has been in close proximity to a black hole and survived ("Singularity" ST:ENT2), I don't think the tac nukes of the Colonials will be a serious problem with just mere "glancing blows".

Proximity to a black hole means jack until you get a good estimate of the distance and the radiations. Unless you're talking like critically close to the accretion disk, this is dismissable.

As for deployment, again, it doesn't seem to take that long, besides a few seconds, to get weapons ready for standby, and if that's a real problem, the Pegasus has enough armor to withstand the NX-01's attacks to get nukes ready.

Here is the NX-01 approaching the black hole early in the episode:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... m=69&pos=1

The projected flight path:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=458

Later when they are flying through the debris laden acccretion disk:


http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=490

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=491

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 69&pos=493

And what are the nukes supposed to be safe an advantage then? How are they supposed to destroy the NX-01? With frakin' harsh language maybe?

Btw, you say polarized hull. Are all surfaces polarized? What about those multiples windows? What about the nacelles themselves, or the impulse engines? Are you telling me that they have glass that can resist this kind of damage:

The nukes are there for planetary bombardment. The fighter carried nukes are for attacking a captial ship en masse, and providing a screen should large nukes be deployed or to defend against fighters carrying nukes (as was shown in the mini-series).

The windows and all other surfaces seem to also be polarized as well. The open impulse engine exaust ports are not, but those are very small targets, and it would probably take a very dedicated attack by the vipers to get a hit inside them.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Earlier in this thread i said that the gap in firepower between the photonic torpedoes and the phase-canons seemed too large, because we were talking about single digit kiloton weapons and double digit megaton weapons.

I'm not quite sure that an accurate assessment of me.

I just saw the episode "The Aenar" and in it the Enterprise comes under attack from an automated Romulan ship. The enemy ships seems to be able to take multiple phase-canon hits, with no apparent damage at all. But only three torpedoes managed to completly destroy it, with the first one breaking it into large pieces. This indicates that there is quite a large gap between the firpower between phase-canons and photonic torpedoes.

Does anyone else remember situations where we've seen the Enterprise fire both photonic torpedoes and phase-canons at the same target?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Earlier in this thread i said that the gap in firepower between the photonic torpedoes and the phase-canons seemed too large, because we were talking about single digit kiloton weapons and double digit megaton weapons.

I'm not quite sure that an accurate assessment of me.

I just saw the episode "The Aenar" and in it the Enterprise comes under attack from an automated Romulan ship. The enemy ships seems to be able to take multiple phase-canon hits, with no apparent damage at all. But only three torpedoes managed to completly destroy it, with the first one breaking it into large pieces. This indicates that there is quite a large gap between the firpower between phase-canons and photonic torpedoes.

Does anyone else remember situations where we've seen the Enterprise fire both photonic torpedoes and phase-canons at the same target?

With phase cannons delivering like 2~3 kilotons per second each when under controlled overload, if I'm correct, a photonic torpedoe would not need to be beyond a couple of hundreds of kilotons to smash an entire ship in a single volley.

Besides, wasn't the romulan ship being destroyed the one which was actually succesfully damaged by the phasers (or whatever) from the other romulan ship?

One of the two romulan drones fires on the Enterprise at several occasions. Not many in fact.

The NX does take damage, though the hull is not technically damaged. Which is funny, because it puts into perspective those claims about how the NX is not taking significant damage unless her hull is visibly damaged.
Well, apparently the Romulans beg to differ.

Transcript.

[Bridge]

T'POL: A ship's dropping out of warp. It appears to be a Tellarite freighter.
ARCHER: Tactical Alert. Hail them. Target their engines.
T'POL: If it is a freighter.
ARCHER: Anything?
(Hoshi shakes her head)
TRAVIS: One hundred kilometres.
ARCHER: Fire.
(the freighter loses its holographic skin and reverts to its proper appearance - a Drone, which attacks)
ARCHER; Aim for their weapons.
REED; They're too damned fast. I can't get a target lock.

[Sickbay]

JHAMEL: What's happening?
SHRAN: We're under attack. I'm going to the Bridge.
JHAMEL: Wait. I can feel him.
(she gets up)
PHLOX; Where do you think you're going?
JHAMEL: Connect me to the device, I need to try again.
PHLOX; I can't allow it. You barely survived the last attempt.
JHAMEL: I can reach him. I can make him stop.
SHRAN: Let her try.

[Control area]

NIJIL: Enterprise is taking heavy damage.
VALDORE: Target with the second Drone. Attack vector one seven seven.
NIJIL: It may not be necessary.
VALDORE: Follow my orders.
NIJIL: Yes, Admiral.

[Sickbay]

PHLOX: She's quite insistent.
(the second Drone reveals its true appearance)
PHLOX: Cortical fluctuation. It could trigger a seizure.
SHRAN: Jhamel.
JHAMEL: I can do it.
PHLOX: Disconnect her. Now!
JHAMEL: No!
SHRAN: She can do this.

[Control area]

NIJIL: They've lost warp power.
VALDORE: Continue targeting their engines.
NIJIL: Someone's tapping into the telemetric array.

Huh, no apparent hull breach whatsoever, according to Trekcore's screencaps, yet the warp's definitely over.

[Bridge]

REED: They're attacking each other.
ARCHER: Let's give them a hand. Photonic torpedoes, full spread.
REED: Aye, sir.

[Control area]

VALDORE: (grabbing Gareb) Stop this! Now.
NIJIL: No!
VALDORE: Resume your attack on the Earth ship.

Both ships weaken each other.
The NX just finishes off the job, destroying an already crippled drone with three torpedoes.

The first impact, if I'm correct, does not break the drone into large pieces:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 81&pos=453

Level of damage caused by the last torpedoes:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 81&pos=454

Not a vast difference for yields that would supposedly, especially for the final explosion of a ship that has no defenses anymore, and which was already damaged beforehand.

[l33telboi]

With phase cannons delivering like 2~3 kilotons per second each when under controlled overload, if I'm correct, a photonic torpedoe would not need to be beyond a couple of hundreds of kilotons to smash an entire ship in a single volley.

Indeed, the difference here though is that the photorps have been said to have a yield in the double digit megaton range.

I first thought that sounded a bit weird, since i thought torpedoes and phasers were quite equal in yields, but after seeing that, the double megaton thing didn't seem nearly as impossible as i had first thought.

Huh, no apparent hull breach whatsoever, according to Trekcore's screencaps, yet the warp's definitely over.

Putting your finger on exactly how that works is a bit iffy. I seem to recall similar things with ships that actually do have shields, certain major systems go off-line or are damaged even though the shields are still up. Hull polarization seems to work quite similarly, with "Hull-plating's down to x percent" even.

Both ships weaken each other.

Yes, but the one destroyed by the photonic torpedoes seems intact. No hull-breaches, no fires, or anything of that kind. The one that was destroyed by the other drone did show all those things.

The NX just finishes off the job, destroying an already crippled drone with three torpedoes.

To say it was crippled is to exaggerate. And the first torpedoe does send fragments flying off from the ship, so clearly, we are dealing with something far more powerful then phase-canons. I might've exaggerated myself when i said the first torp broke the ship apart though.

[Mr. Oragahn]

With phase cannons delivering like 2~3 kilotons per second each when under controlled overload, if I'm correct, a photonic torpedoe would not need to be beyond a couple of hundreds of kilotons to smash an entire ship in a single volley.

Indeed, the difference here though is that the photorps have been said to have a yield in the double digit megaton range.

I can't remember who made that claim. Was it in an episode? From dialogue, or an observation plus calcs?

I first thought that sounded a bit weird, since i thought torpedoes and phasers were quite equal in yields, but after seeing that, the double megaton thing didn't seem nearly as impossible as i had first thought.

Funnily, the author of the NX article at wikipedia believes torps are actually of the same level of phase cannons IIRC. But, again, it's wiki. Can't ask. Can't know.

Huh, no apparent hull breach whatsoever, according to Trekcore's screencaps, yet the warp's definitely over.

Putting your finger on exactly how that works is a bit iffy. I seem to recall similar things with ships that actually do have shields, certain major systems go off-line or are damaged even though the shields are still up. Hull polarization seems to work quite similarly, with "Hull-plating's down to x percent" even.

There's still the rest of "heavy damage" noticed by the romulan scanners even before the warp core fails. Obviously, the hull dissipates enough, but seems to fail somewhere, which is enough to damage the structure. Sounds like KE against an armoured suit. The suit can handle the shock, but the meatbag inside can get knocked off.

Both ships weaken each other.

Yes, but the one destroyed by the photonic torpedoes seems intact. No hull-breaches, no fires, or anything of that kind. The one that was destroyed by the other drone did show all those things.

Any picture of the visible damage? Trekcore doesn't seem to have any inbetween shot about that.
Anyway, we know that both ships were exchanging fire to damage each other, likely to down one and make it an easy job for the NX to wipe the slate clean.

[Bridge]

REED: They're attacking each other.
ARCHER: Let's give them a hand. Photonic torpedoes, full spread.
REED: Aye, sir.

If one ship could be that damaged by beams, the other would as well.
Those beams do deal noticeable damage:

http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 81&pos=441
http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 81&pos=443

That's why claiming that torpedoes are vastly powerful because they managed to finish off a ship which was the target of such beams is incorrect.

The NX just finishes off the job, destroying an already crippled drone with three torpedoes.

To say it was crippled is to exaggerate. And the first torpedoe does send fragments flying off from the ship, so clearly, we are dealing with something far more powerful then phase-canons. I might've exaggerated myself when i said the first torp broke the ship apart though.

Crippled might not be the right word, but it's been said to be damaged. With structure all suffering from many small hull breaches, a dierct hit by a torpedo would be devastating, especially if the smurf chick lowered the drone's defenses, which is even more possible.

Aenar is not a reliable episode for such ramblings.