22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effect)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Moving a relay probably is the better option (and it avoids the nasty "wipe out system" effect). However, the "move a moon" tractor beam examples come from 24th century Trek, IIRC. What's the biggest thing they've moved in Enterprise?

The original title, by a few pixels up, when they added "Star Trek" to the show's full name.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Must assume that deflectors are mostly good against specks. Torpedoes deflected that way may involve Special Circumstances TM.

[Trinoya]

Okay, lets break this down one segment at a time, because clearly if we just get right into the debate things are going to be lost: I'm going to try to actually do this in as ordered a fashion as possible.

My first recommendation is that we review fleet numbers since, honestly, before ANY THING can be discussed the fleet strength of the citadel races must be addressed.

The fleet witnessed at the end of mass effect three, from a rough count (one in which I included anything that might even be construed as a ship if you squint really hard) got me a count between 160 and 190 ships, although I also had a possible estimate as high as 230, but that involved a severe possibility of me counting fleet sections I had counted before, so I'm pretty confident that number isn't going to be accurate.

We know the Turians had the most ships, followed by the humans, followed by the Asari, then the Salarians, with the rest of the mass effect citadel races (The drell, Elcor, Hanar, and Volus) having only a few small fleets (if any).

So, now we know who is involved, so lets look at the composition of their fleets. We know fleets are composed of frigates, cruisers, dreadnoughts, and carriers, with an unknown number of support vessels remaining.

Now I'm going to focus on the humans a bit and MR status.

We know that as of the first contact war the Systems Alliance had 200+ ships, which was considered an extremely large fleet, second only to the Turians, this was their entire navy. We have no reason to presume they ceased building, considering they built many dreadnoughts. Now to determine fleet size lets take a look at the MR stats.

The first fleet, in mass effect,o was stated to have a MR of 90. This is after 50% losses straight, and a tenth after that. We crunch some math and we know it should have a rating of 200 MR (give or take 10 MR due to rounding for half ships).

We also know that this fleet, as well as two others, each lost a third of their ships at the battle of the citadel (valued at 25 full points removed from their MR rating). We know from Sheppard that at least eight alliance ships were lost.

We know frigates are valued at 15 MR, cruisers at 40, and dreadnoughts at 70 MR.

If I presume a full four ships were lost from the first fleet, and presume these are the combat ships based on Sheppards statement (and because we never see any admiral stupid enough in ME to order the support ships to do suicide duty, save for quarians, who are not a citadel race and have no presence in citadel space, therefore should not be involved), we can derive that the fleet likely is composed of 12 major combat vessels.

If we presume it was four frigates that were lost (a mere 60 MR), that leaves room for one dreadnought, one cruiser, and another six frigates = 260.

Now, we have some wiggle room, but not that much. Lets presume, instead it was 3 frigates, making the first fleet have 9 full combat capable ships (frigates and up).

If we presume 7 frigates, one dreadnought, and one cruiser, we get a MR rating of 215 (closer to the 200 we have earlier). We also can explain away some of this value since the Dreadnought Value of 70 is specifically for the Destiny Ascension, which should be the most powerful citadel race ship.

If we presume 9 major combat vessels for the first fleet it actually fits in well with how we see the advance on the end (elements from many fleets, flotillas, etc). Fleets having their major combat assets ranging from 6-9, eight full fleets, and numerous smaller 'local' cruisers, and frigates. This is exactly how the fleets are said to be arranged after all, no reason to presume they aren't. So a handful of frigates mucking about in systems, with the fleets at critical points.

Of course, even if I presumed each fleet had 12 ships (impossible, as the sixth fleet had 90 MR and hadn't even seen combat), that would only be 96 ships. Only approximately a third of that number has even been named of course.


I'm not suggesting that the fleets are that small of course. That makes no sense, since each fleet should have at least a dozen support vessels on its own (or another 96 ships straight), and likely more combat ships to boot.

So... What is the solution? MR stats are fairly clear cut, though we have some wiggle room for more advanced and less advanced designs.. but if we accept it, and even if we are generous, we aren't exactly going to get a lot of combat capable ships...


So, do we have any additional hard numbers we can bring into play? As it stands current numbers aren't adding up, and any subsequent 'dozens of ships' could be hand waved away as 'support vessels.' I don't want to handwave anything away, but it's just as easy to do with the available evidence as it is to say 'deflectors do or do not work.' I'll see about reviewing more evidence later on.


Current Opinion (not a conclusion): We should actually be taking the idea of commanders and captains into account for MR, and the numbers may in fact be greater. This notably would help justify how a 'third' loss (even if we presume numbers are replaced), for three different fleets, results in only a loss of 25 MR across the board.

Sub Note:
Notable evidence for which I haven't crunched numbers yet due to a lack of time: We know that four dreadnoughts are required to really do any damage to a reaper and we know that 12 reapers were used to decimate the second, third, and fifth fleets (resulting int the total sacrifice of the second fleet to save the other two). We also know the fourth fleet was entirely wiped out during the battle for earth.

Edit: Additional Sub note: It's also possible that the high end losses experienced by the alliance have increased the MR value of comparatively weaker ships.

[User1401]

War Assets are abstract numbers. Individuals are worth the same as entire fleets. I wouldn't derive fleet estimates from them. Also, only the Fifth Fleet was at the Citadel, as referred to in ME cutscenes. Other fleets having losses is a continuity error. Also, the Alliance fleet at the time of the First Contact War did not rival the turian fleet. People said that during the games, decades later.

And if you really want to do some number crunching, the quarians have 50,000 ships total, while the geth have at least 5000. Try doing some War Asset comparisons now...

Not necessarily. As hinted at by Trinoya, the relay could have been pushed off by the mere constant stream of particles resulting from the star's sudden expansion. At some point, there's still enough total mass projected over the surface of the object to move it like we'd move an asteroid with near-future tech, but the density of matter hitting the relay per second needs not be huge either.

It had to be hit hard enough not just to move it, but for its position to be lost. Pushing something outside of its system still takes a lot of energy.

Trouble is, they do have that glow, which is quite consistent. Now, it's never been established as being related to shields, but it's quite a thing that it's never been attempted to shoot down such torps with phasers unless the torp was shot down by its firer. Torps to shoot down torps, that I think we saw it happen several times, even once in ENT eventually, perhaps to stop some torps from hitting a planet.

Although it's conjectural, it's also been very likely and the best theory out there for decades.
So the probabilities that the Citadel Races may not be able to shoot down those torps are extremely high.

Torpedoes still glowed in the Mutara Nebula. So torpedo glow is not indicative of shields. What's more, United Earth did not possess ship shielding technology when they produced photonic torpedoes. The probability of the Citadel Races not being able to shoot down the torps is extremely low.

Unless you believe that they should behave like cannon balls outside of any interference, I can't see how an advanced system such as this one could not apply course correction, especially over long distance (as opposed to tight turns over shorter ones).
We can do it with clumsy modules and STL comms.

I understand that torpedoes are guided, but that doesn't indicate anything about their range. Fuel and velocity can still be limiting factors. So I'll ask you again, do you have any evidence for 22nd century torpedo range?

All probabilities show that they'd hit very easily. They most likely couldn't be shot down, and they'd be too fast to be intercepted by a wide variety of systems and counter measures that'd stand a chance against unprotected fragile missiles.
Add to the fact that a glancing area blast in the low megaton it still going to roast significant patches of hulls.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/ ... s:_GARDIAN

"Since lasers move at light speed, they cannot be dodged by anything moving at non-relativistic speeds. Unless the beam is aimed poorly, it will always hit its target. In the early stages of a battle, the GARDIAN fire is 100% accurate."

Torpedoes aren't fired at relativistic speeds, so GARDIAN defense lasers will intercept them. Also, inverse square law. If a torpedo is detonated a kilometer or so away from a ship, it will do very little damage. If it detonates closer, well, that probably means the launching ship was close enough to get caught in the blast.

[sonofccn]

What's more, United Earth did not possess ship shielding technology when they produced photonic torpedoes.

Shields for ships? No. Energy shields?

REED: Starfleet's been working on creating a stable EM barrier for the last five years.
T'POL: A force field.
REED: Right. They just haven't found a way to control the particle density. All the specs are in the database. I've been trying to jerry-rig a prototype of my own.
T'POL: And?
REED: I've got it stable enough to absorb a phase pistol blast sixty percent of the time. I think I can improve on that.

CREWMAN: (making final adjustments to emitters) Ready, sir.
(Reed flips a switch, a wobbly forcefield comes on, and the crewman fires a phase pistol at it. The beam is stopped briefly, then passes through and the field collapses)
REED: The particle density's still fluctuating. I think the problem's in the lower left quadrant.
CREWMAN : Got it, sir.
REED: Try again. (the phase beam doesn't penetrate this time) Better.

From ENT Season 1. Granted it still a step further to go from prototype forcefield to torpedo shield but it makes shielded photonics less a shot out of the blue. As well Lucky already mentioned the deflector system for the Enterprise which would be a protective field of sorts they have already mastered even if it is not combat rated.

Torpedoes still glowed in the Mutara Nebula. So torpedo glow is not indicative of shields.

I would have to disagree, it seems a stretch to assume because ship's shields were fragged a short lived shield over a vastly smaller volume must as well.

But to take it from the top we know the "glow" is a recent development spatial torpedoes didn't have it. Implying the glow is either a byproduct of "photonic" torpedoes or a concurrent recent development. Second we know 24th century torpedoes which 22nd photonic torpedoes bare a passing similuarlity too had them:

LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.

Since the orange glow we see on the 24th century torpedo is most likely its shield system barring designers aping cosmetic details from an unrelated system from two centuries in the past it is not an undue assumption that the glow on the 22nd torpedo is a type of shield as well.

The probability of the Citadel Races not being able to shoot down the torps is extremely low.

I'd argue that is a known unknown barring detailed we are unlikely to obtain, we after all know next to nothing about 22nd century torpedoes, regarding torpedo endurance and guardian laser strenght.

for a total of about 700 ships. That's still much, much in excess of what we see for Enterprise-era Trek factions.

ARCHER: How many ships will it take to make this work?
T'POL: Only one hundred and twenty eight.
ARCHER: There's just one way we can get that many ships to help us.
.
.
.
T'POL: Minister T'Pau is dispatching twenty three vessels.
ARCHER: That's all?
T'POL: The High Command has been disbanded. Many of our ships no longer have full crew compliments.
ARCHER: T'Pau could have picked a better time to clean house.
T'POL: (seeing his desk monitor) Andorian and Tellarite fleet deployments?
ARCHER: I'm thinking of asking them to join us. Without more ships, our sensor net's going to have a gaping hole. The marauder could fly right through it, and we'd never know.
.
.
.
T'POL: We've received the final confirmations. All one hundred and twenty eight ships are in position

So four races can scrounge up over a hundred ships on essentially a spur of the moment venture. Not to shabby.:)

[User1401]

Shields for ships? No. Energy shields?
From ENT Season 1. Granted it still a step further to go from prototype forcefield to torpedo shield but it makes shielded photonics less a shot out of the blue. As well Lucky already mentioned the deflector system for the Enterprise which would be a protective field of sorts they have already mastered even if it is not combat rated.

Yes, I am aware of this. Which is why I said "ship shielding".

I would have to disagree, it seems a stretch to assume because ship's shields were fragged a short lived shield over a vastly smaller volume must as well.

But to take it from the top we know the "glow" is a recent development spatial torpedoes didn't have it. Implying the glow is either a byproduct of "photonic" torpedoes or a concurrent recent development. Second we know 24th century torpedoes which 22nd photonic torpedoes bare a passing similuarlity too had them:

LAFORGE: Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
TIMICIN: Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.

Since the orange glow we see on the 24th century torpedo is most likely its shield system barring designers aping cosmetic details from an unrelated system from two centuries in the past it is not an undue assumption that the glow on the 22nd torpedo is a type of shield as well.

What's a stretch? They plainly say shields are "not functional" in the nebula. You can't even turn them on. Why would torpedoes be any different? This is evidence against torpedo glow being the shields, while there is NO direct evidence linking torpedo glow to shields in the first place. It is certainly an undue assumption that photonic torpedo glow is a shield.

I'd argue that is a known unknown barring detailed we are unlikely to obtain, we after all know next to nothing about 22nd century torpedoes, regarding torpedo endurance and guardian laser strenght.

You don't debate based on unknowns or what might be possible. If you have no evidence for it, your argument cannot be proven. Photonic torpedoes would be shot down like any other missile; we have no reason to think otherwise.

So four races can scrounge up over a hundred ships on essentially a spur of the moment venture. Not to shabby.:)

And the very lowest estimate for Citadel fleet sizes is still several times higher than that.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Not necessarily. As hinted at by Trinoya, the relay could have been pushed off by the mere constant stream of particles resulting from the star's sudden expansion. At some point, there's still enough total mass projected over the surface of the object to move it like we'd move an asteroid with near-future tech, but the density of matter hitting the relay per second needs not be huge either.

It had to be hit hard enough not just to move it, but for its position to be lost. Pushing something outside of its system still takes a lot of energy.

Plasma from a supernova won't attain a high fraction of c and the momentum will not allow for the relay to be pushed to move as fast as the plasma did. Why the position was lost has no bearing on the nature of the relay's displacement.

Trouble is, they do have that glow, which is quite consistent. Now, it's never been established as being related to shields, but it's quite a thing that it's never been attempted to shoot down such torps with phasers unless the torp was shot down by its firer. Torps to shoot down torps, that I think we saw it happen several times, even once in ENT eventually, perhaps to stop some torps from hitting a planet.

Although it's conjectural, it's also been very likely and the best theory out there for decades.
So the probabilities that the Citadel Races may not be able to shoot down those torps are extremely high.

Torpedoes still glowed in the Mutara Nebula. So torpedo glow is not indicative of shields. What's more, United Earth did not possess ship shielding technology when they produced photonic torpedoes. The probability of the Citadel Races not being able to shoot down the torps is extremely low.

I posited that torpedo glow is a high intensity, environmentally dangerous, dense but short lived shield system. It fits with all we know, including the ability to pass through other shields by matching their frequency, which a normal "dumb" hull couldn't do without any help from another nullifying force field. It also explains why the invisible shields don't work while those on torps do. In the end it doesn't really matter, because it can only be a force field. Particles don't stick to a volume like that for no reason. And that's the proof that not all force fields were deactivated in the Mutara nebula. There's also logically no system whatsoever that would offer any advantage in glowing that way, constantly and from the moment the torpedo is fired, other than shields.
Besides, the torps used by the guys in ENT were first handed to them by aliens. Plus the shield of a torpedo could be allowed to work differently because there isn't any crew on a torpedo, explaining why mounting shields on crewed ships would have been a problem to solve while it wasn't for torpedoes.
Therefore, instead of letting the nature of the glow as unknown, I prefer to consider it a near-certain sign of an unique shield system.

Unless you believe that they should behave like cannon balls outside of any interference, I can't see how an advanced system such as this one could not apply course correction, especially over long distance (as opposed to tight turns over shorter ones).
We can do it with clumsy modules and STL comms.

I understand that torpedoes are guided, but that doesn't indicate anything about their range. Fuel and velocity can still be limiting factors. So I'll ask you again, do you have any evidence for 22nd century torpedo range?

There is nothing that would limit their range as to force ST ships to come "close" to ME ships.
The evidence is what we can already do now, which is sufficient to make very clean calculations to guide modules beyond Jupiter, and the fact that the torpedoes are obviously way ahead of our own guiding systems and their range, and that those species use subspace for comms, which is FTL as long as being hard to jam for the Citadel races.

All probabilities show that they'd hit very easily. They most likely couldn't be shot down, and they'd be too fast to be intercepted by a wide variety of systems and counter measures that'd stand a chance against unprotected fragile missiles.
Add to the fact that a glancing area blast in the low megaton it still going to roast significant patches of hulls.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/ ... s:_GARDIAN

"Since lasers move at light speed, they cannot be dodged by anything moving at non-relativistic speeds. Unless the beam is aimed poorly, it will always hit its target. In the early stages of a battle, the GARDIAN fire is 100% accurate."

Torpedoes aren't fired at relativistic speeds, so GARDIAN defense lasers will intercept them.

Only if they can track them.
What is the fastest object tracked by a Gardian system and shot down?
What was its size?

Also, inverse square law. If a torpedo is detonated a kilometer or so away from a ship, it will do very little damage. If it detonates closer, well, that probably means the launching ship was close enough to get caught in the blast.

Pardon?
Why would the launching ship be less than a km away from the torp when it would detonate as a glancing hit against its target?

[Picard]

Regarding Battle of the Citadel, there were at least 50 ships in SA fleet, mostly cruisers. We know of 7 fleets, so it would be cca. 350 ships. 400 maybe. Anyway, is SA navy really second only to the Turians?

[sonofccn]

Yes, I am aware of this. Which is why I said "ship shielding".

You appeared to be arguing for an incongruity for shielded photonics due to Earth ships lacking shields. I was merely ensuring awareness that the basic tech needed to shield torpedoes had already been developed by that time.

What's a stretch? They plainly say shields are "not functional" in the nebula. You can't even turn them on.

In relation to ship's shields. Torpedoes may or may not be different story. To recap you look at a single scene and declare the glow can not be shielding. I say that it is a distinct possibility and look elsewhere for further clarification. Hence noting 24th century torpedoes have shields and they have a funny glow and assume the simplier theroy that instead of generating a shield as well as a cosmetic "energy sheath" the two are one and the same. Accepting that and looking back at the photonic torpedo which has the exact same glow we are forced to choose between the 22nd torpedo aping a "shield glow" and not truly generating one for some reason or that it is in fact creating an "EM barrier" of some kind hence the similarity of appearence. Hence why I consider it sketchy to say glow can not possibly mean shield because they glowed in the nebula.

You don't debate based on unknowns or what might be possible. If you have no evidence for it, your argument cannot be proven. Photonic torpedoes would be shot down like any other missile; we have no reason to think otherwise.

One can not make judgment in the absence of facts. As of this moment no evidence has been presented on photonic torpedoes endurance to my knowledge nor on the guardian defense system's strenght. Without estimates on both we can not say if the laser will cut through the torp like butter or bounce off hence a Known Unknown. We know they will interact we simply don't know how.

And the very lowest estimate for Citadel fleet sizes is still several times higher than that.

Seven times higher, if I understood you correctly, for their entire naval forces versus an adhoc "battlegroup" assembled "off the cuff".

Besides, the torps used by the guys in ENT were first handed to them by aliens.

Was this actually confirmed? I thought that was merely speculation.

[Trinoya]

War Assets are abstract numbers. Individuals are worth the same as entire fleets. I wouldn't derive fleet estimates from them. Also, only the Fifth Fleet was at the Citadel, as referred to in ME cutscenes. Other fleets having losses is a continuity error. Also, the Alliance fleet at the time of the First Contact War did not rival the turian fleet. People said that during the games, decades later.

There is no reason to assume that some individuals couldn't be as valuable as entire fleets in the MR scale at this point, after all the entire alliance military was decimated beyond compare, and a good portion of humanity shortly followed. Trained, specifically well trained, men and woman are going to be hard to come by. This, as I said, could be inflating their numerical value.


Second: At the time of the first contact war people were dumbfounded by the number of ships the humans had, and all sources I have found suggest the humans were second only to the turians, and the gap has been getting closed ever since. In fact it was one of the big reasons the citadel races were even considering giving humans a seat on the council, to the animosity of many other races that had been trying for far longer, who felt they were cheated simply because they didn't have as big a navy.

As far as the continuity error is concerned: You can prove it is a continuity error, right? I know joker says the fifth fleet is here, but that doesn't mean the other fleets couldn't have been standing by. Furthermore: even if it is accepted as a continuity error (something I personally am not opposed to), that means the fifth fleet numbered just 24 ships (which if you remember my presumption earlier of 12 ships and at least a dozen support ships), which even if we presume all the other fleets are equal to it we have just 192 ships, less than what they had during the first contact war.

Note: This is the exact some issue I referenced earlier, and is only solved by the statement of how fleets operate, stationing near mass relays with only a few frigates and cruisers dispersed amongst colonies, with the notable exception of the turians, who put ships everywhere.

And if you really want to do some number crunching, the quarians have 50,000 ships total, while the geth have at least 5000. Try doing some War Asset comparisons now...

Yes, and those two non-citadel races have the largest fleets in mass effect after the reapers... that's not a point I would debate ever, and has no bearing on anything else since the only quarian ships that accompany you are portions of the civilian and military fleet, valued at 200 MR. The quarian ships at the final battle are the least numerous after the asari (with me being only able to track down a grand total of 13 during any one cutscene) of all the visible ships. This makes sense since the vast majority of their fleet should be off at their homeworld rebuilding the whole of their civilization.

Of interesting note: The quarian military fleet is also valued at 200 MR, as is their patrol fleet. We know the civilian fleet had to contribute more numbers to get to that value (per its actual MR entry).

We also know that they clearly didn't send thousands of ships, one only needs to watch the final battle and try to pick out the quarian ships.

But again, it's moot, the Quarians aren't involved due your own OP. The issue at hand is how MR rating scales... we know that trivial applications on the MR scale can be valued as little as 1 MR.


I digress: Unless we can get some hard fleet numbers then all we know is the following:

Humans: 200+ < Salarians
Turiants > Humans
Asari < Humans
Salarians < Humans
Minor Citadel races < Humans

Lets go back to your numbers from earlier:

2300 ships, was your most recent claim I believe: If we presume that the humans had, at base, 300 ships at the first contact war, and the turians had 50% more than that (450), and that they both doubled their entire fleet for a whopping 1500 ships, and we presume that everyone else did exactly the same and had 199 ships each, I'm just gonona round them all up to 400 a pop.

Asari: 400
Salarian: 400
Hanar: 400
The drell: 400
Elcor: 400
Hanar: 400
Volus: 400

Equals 2800 total, + another 1500 = 4300.


That's actually LESS than your original total of 4600 ships (by your own admission you halved that number to achieve the total of 2300) and I don't think anyone would claim the numbers I presented aren't insanely inflated.

If we take the presumed minimum for humans (201), and give the turians 50% more than that (rounding up) for 302

And then I still give EVERYONE else 200... and then presume only a 50% military build up (rather than a total doubling of their forces), and continue to round up:

Humans: 302
Turians: 453
Asari: 300
Salarians: 300
Little Four: 1200

We get: 2555.

Now, lets take those little four and put them a bit more in context, since it's clear none of them have the military power to match the salarians, asari, taurians, or humans. It'd be a better assumption to presume 50% of their total, but I'm gonna give them a whopping 75%, or 900 ships, the loss of 300 ships puts it at 2255.

This is still presuming an extremely large, non war-time build up of forces, when the only factions we know were building ships at any considerable rate were the humans and Turians... both of whom because they were greatly concerned about another war with each other, and one of whom had major peace keeping interests.

So if we bend the fluff, wrap it in a knot, take some very high end numbers, twist it a bit, and finally finish off with jumping a shark, we get into the ball park of 2300 ships.

Is it possible, yes? Plausible... doubtful.

But, I'm not looking for plausible, I'm looking for possible. So yes, it's possible they can have fleet numbers as high as 2300.

We still need to determine how much of a fraction of those are combat capable, and not support. If we presume just a mere 25% of that feet I presented above is support (all logistics, troops, and supplementary craft) we get 638.75 support vessels. Lets round that down to 638 support vessels, leaving us with 1,917 combat capable vessels.


If we presume half of that is on guard duty, we get 958 ships or so to play with.


Three powers scrounged up 128 ships, with humans providing only 1 as far as I know. lets put this in context: 128 ships were thrown together, spur of the moment, because a grand total of two ships were causing problems.

Your OP stats they believe the galaxy will be destroyed.

I'm thinking they will be throwing a lot more at it, and I'm thinking they have a lot more to throw. Humans only have ever been shown to have a total of approximately 20 ships confirmed on screen (at earth), but we know the other races have more, and at least two were in a build up for war. It[s likely the humans have more than that as well since it was only earth (one side of earth at that) in which we saw that many ships.

Even if we presume they have a total of only double what we saw them throw at this one ship, and lets say the humans have double of their 20 (for a total of 40 ships), that's going to be near 300 ships. Chances are the number is higher, since all of the factions dispatched 128 ships to deal with a fairly minor problem compared to the total destruction of their galaxy.


Lets also compare one final note: When faced with the total destruction of their galaxy the ME races sat by till it was nearly too late, and even when the enemy was on their door step they still fought over trivial problems, nearly costing them the war. When the enemy finally arrived on their door step, the person they snubbed, the person who tried to get them ready, was their only hope left... and only after Sheppard failed to save the Asari homeworld did the Asari councilor even begin to consider continuity of civilization... only then did they decide maybe this whole, 'stopping the reapers' thing might be a good idea. Only when the reality of their total annihilation was upon them did anyone beyond the tuarians and humans actually take military force seriously... and by then.. it was too late.

With the exterior threats, the issues they have with one another, and with their own inability to think or plan ahead... I'm thinking 958 ships might be a bit generous, but I have zero cause to presume any fewer would be brought to bare with this particular analysis.

[User1401]

Plasma from a supernova won't attain a high fraction of c and the momentum will not allow for the relay to be pushed to move as fast as the plasma did. Why the position was lost has no bearing on the nature of the relay's displacement.

"Nature of the relay's displacement"? Are you suggesting that a supernova somehow is not a violent event?

I posited that torpedo glow is a high intensity, environmentally dangerous, dense but short lived shield system. It fits with all we know, including the ability to pass through other shields by matching their frequency, which a normal "dumb" hull couldn't do without any help from another nullifying force field. It also explains why the invisible shields don't work while those on torps do. In the end it doesn't really matter, because it can only be a force field. Particles don't stick to a volume like that for no reason. And that's the proof that not all force fields were deactivated in the Mutara nebula. There's also logically no system whatsoever that would offer any advantage in glowing that way, constantly and from the moment the torpedo is fired, other than shields.

What "proof"? You've suggested an explanation, fine. Suggesting something does not prove it. As for "no system whatsoever", there is an alternate explanation: the antimatter payload. Antimatter containment and the power required to maintain it could cause the glow. This would also explain why probes without antimatter don't glow. I don't exactly have proof of this, but it's plausible, and it knocks "only theory out there" off of torpedo glow theory's list of advantages.

Besides, the torps used by the guys in ENT were first handed to them by aliens. Plus the shield of a torpedo could be allowed to work differently because there isn't any crew on a torpedo, explaining why mounting shields on crewed ships would have been a problem to solve while it wasn't for torpedoes.

What aliens? And keyword there: "could". You don't have any evidence, at all.

Therefore, instead of letting the nature of the glow as unknown, I prefer to consider it a near-certain sign of an unique shield system.

You may think that way, but you've done absolutely nothing to prove it. It's not a near-certain sign at all.

There is nothing that would limit their range as to force ST ships to come "close" to ME ships.
The evidence is what we can already do now, which is sufficient to make very clean calculations to guide modules beyond Jupiter, and the fact that the torpedoes are obviously way ahead of our own guiding systems and their range, and that those species use subspace for comms, which is FTL as long as being hard to jam for the Citadel races.

And there is nothing that indicates that the torpedoes could go that far. Post some evidence, for god's sake.

Only if they can track them.
What is the fastest object tracked by a Gardian system and shot down?
What was its size?

...I just showed you. Are you dense?

Objects need to be going at relativistic velocities to avoid GARDIAN. It has 100% accuracy.

Here, I'll repost it in case you missed it:

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/ ... s:_GARDIAN

"Since lasers move at light speed, they cannot be dodged by anything moving at non-relativistic speeds. Unless the beam is aimed poorly, it will always hit its target. In the early stages of a battle, the GARDIAN fire is 100% accurate."

Pardon?
Why would the launching ship be less than a km away from the torp when it would detonate as a glancing hit against its target?

It would be less than a km away, because that's the only way it could get the torpdedo to detonate that close to the target before it gets intercepted by GARDIAN.

In relation to ship's shields. Torpedoes may or may not be different story. To recap you look at a single scene and declare the glow can not be shielding. I say that it is a distinct possibility and look elsewhere for further clarification. Hence noting 24th century torpedoes have shields and they have a funny glow and assume the simplier theroy that instead of generating a shield as well as a cosmetic "energy sheath" the two are one and the same. Accepting that and looking back at the photonic torpedo which has the exact same glow we are forced to choose between the 22nd torpedo aping a "shield glow" and not truly generating one for some reason or that it is in fact creating an "EM barrier" of some kind hence the similarity of appearence. Hence why I consider it sketchy to say glow can not possibly mean shield because they glowed in the nebula.

Yes, I look at a single scene and declare it cannot be shielding. Nothing contradicts shields being disabled in that scene. Nothing proves the glow to be shields in the first place. And as I noted above, there is the alternative explanation of the glow being somehow caused by the antimatter payload of torpedoes.

One can not make judgment in the absence of facts. As of this moment no evidence has been presented on photonic torpedoes endurance to my knowledge nor on the guardian defense system's strenght. Without estimates on both we can not say if the laser will cut through the torp like butter or bounce off hence a Known Unknown. We know they will interact we simply don't know how.

It's a known fact that GARDIAN is used to shoot down incoming missiles. There is no reason to think that torpedoes (22nd century ones, specifically) are different than normal missiles in this regard. There is no absence of facts here.

[sonofccn]

Yes, I look at a single scene and declare it cannot be shielding. Nothing contradicts shields being disabled in that scene.

In that one scene? No. Taken with the full body of evidence, that we know later models that glow do indeed have shields that it is highly likely 22nd century torps had shields based upon having the exact same glow and therefore that the 23rd century torps likely had shields we have a contridiction of seeing a glow when we presumbly wouldn't. One that can be explained by the lack of shields being ship centric.

And as I noted above, there is the alternative explanation of the glow being somehow caused by the antimatter payload of torpedoes.

You are postulating that in order to contain the warhead, contained within the torpedo, it must generate a glow encompasing the exterior of the torpedo? In that case I'd point to this:

SPOCK: An ounce should be sufficient. We can drain it from the ship's engines and transport it to the planet surface in a magnetic vacuum field.

indicating magnetic fields are used to hold the anti-matter in storage which typically don't glow as well the actual storage pod doesn't in the episode in question.

It's a known fact that GARDIAN is used to shoot down incoming missiles.

Yes. I have never doubted that. By the same token it is a known fact a torpedo is used to shoot enemy vessels. Similarly the Phalanx CIWS would also be designed to shoot down enemy missiles but that doesn't mean it should be assumed without evidence it could shoot down photon torpedoes.

There is no reason to think that torpedoes (22nd century ones, specifically) are different than normal missiles in this regard.

We have no evidence it should be the same either which is the crux of the argument. In an absence of evidence for either side you wish to assume in favor of one side by default.

[User1401]

In that one scene? No. Taken with the full body of evidence, that we know later models that glow do indeed have shields that it is highly likely 22nd century torps had shields based upon having the exact same glow and therefore that the 23rd century torps likely had shields we have a contridiction of seeing a glow when we presumbly wouldn't. One that can be explained by the lack of shields being ship centric.

Keyword: "can be explained". Meaning you have no proof. You have no proof linking torpedo glow to shields in the first place, just conjecture. Your explanation as to why torpedoes would still glow in the nebula is also conjecture. Conjecture to justify conjecture. None of this is likely at all, much less proven.

You are postulating that in order to contain the warhead, contained within the torpedo, it must generate a glow encompasing the exterior of the torpedo? In that case I'd point to this:

SPOCK: An ounce should be sufficient. We can drain it from the ship's engines and transport it to the planet surface in a magnetic vacuum field.

indicating magnetic fields are used to hold the anti-matter in storage which typically don't glow as well the actual storage pod doesn't in the episode in question.

Shields typically don't glow either unless being fired upon, so this objection goes for torpedo glow as shields as well.

Edit: That's pretty ironic, actually. The whole point of torpedo glow = shields is to explain the glow...when it really doesn't, anyways! Knock that one off the reasons supporting it. Glow and shields don't consistently match either, thanks to the Mutara Nebula. It's not even the only plausible explanation; the antimatter payload could just as easily be the cause (probes don't glow, the non-antimatter spatial torpedoes didn't glow -- both could be because of the lack of antimatter). What decisive reason is there to believe that torpedo glow is shields, anyways?

Yes. I have never doubted that. By the same token it is a known fact a torpedo is used to shoot enemy vessels. Similarly the Phalanx CIWS would also be designed to shoot down enemy missiles but that doesn't mean it should be assumed without evidence it could shoot down photon torpedoes.

We have no evidence it should be the same either which is the crux of the argument. In an absence of evidence for either side you wish to assume in favor of one side by default.

The burden of proof is on you to show that torpedoes could resist being shot down. By default, GARDIAN shoots down missiles meant to hit enemy vessels. You have not provided any evidence that indicates torpedoes should be any different.

I mean, if you could prove that photonic torpedoes do have shields, but not to what extent, then it would become a "known unknown" if GARDIAN could penetrate the shields in time to stop the torpedo. As it stands, there is still no evidence that photonic torpedoes have shields at all, thus no reason to think torpedoes would resist being shot by GARDIAN.

[sonofccn]

You have no proof linking torpedo glow to shields in the first place, just conjecture

I have provided a reasoned hypothesis based upon available evidence. If you can develope a simplier theory as to why a shielded torpedo generates an "aura" encasing itself that will be one thing but until then Occam's razor agrees with my hypothesis.

It also says that if orange glow in 24th century is a shield then the orange glow in the 22nd century is a shield which is again the simplist theory to explain the phenomenon. And you have provided no evidence why the glow in the 24th century can't be a shield nor a simplier explanation for the two facets. IE: Orange glow surronding the torpedo and generating a protective shield. All you have done is hold up an incident directed towards ship's shields and argued that it must pertain to torpedoes.

Shields typically don't glow either unless being fired upon, so this objection goes for torpedo glow as shields as well.

Actually pump enough power through everything and a ship looks like this:

Orion ship

Which looks remarkably like a photon torpedo

SPOCK: The thing that confused me was the power utilisation curve. It made them seem more powerful than a starship or anything known to us. That ship was constructed for a suicide mission. Since they never intended to return to their home base, they could use one hundred percent power on their attacks. The thing I don't understand is why I didn't think of it earlier.

It's not even the only plausible explanation; the antimatter payload could just as easily be the cause

Negative. Anti-matter does not glow, I showed you a picture of essentially an anti-matter warhead and there was no glow. In addition we know photon grenades don't glow either so unless you have an example of a none torpedo anti-matter capsule which glows like a photon torpedo your "anti-matter" theroy is flawed and incorrect.

The burden of proof is on you to show that torpedoes could resist being shot down.

Only if I was saying the torpedo wouldn't be shot down. I'm not. I'm saying we lack information to make a determination, that neither side can claim an advantage on that score due to lack of facts on the matter.

I mean, if you could prove that photonic torpedoes do have shields, but not to what extent, then it would become a "known unknown" if GARDIAN could penetrate the shields in time to stop the torpedo.

Actually with shields or without shields a torpedo's endurance would need to be quanitified by some manner in order to determin if the laser could hurt it. Either by knowing what its casing its made out of, and accompaning melting point, or a quanitfiable event showing the torpedo being fatally comprimised and destroyed. Then of course we would need to know the output of the laser.

[User1401]

I have provided a reasoned hypothesis based upon available evidence. If you can develope a simplier theory as to why a shielded torpedo generates an "aura" encasing itself that will be one thing but until then Occam's razor agrees with my hypothesis.

It also says that if orange glow in 24th century is a shield then the orange glow in the 22nd century is a shield which is again the simplist theory to explain the phenomenon. And you have provided no evidence why the glow in the 24th century can't be a shield nor a simplier explanation for the two facets. IE: Orange glow surronding the torpedo and generating a protective shield. All you have done is hold up an incident directed towards ship's shields and argued that it must pertain to torpedoes.

I have provided a theory, so no, Occam's Razor does not agree with you (and even if it did, that wouldn't prove anything). The burden of proof is still on you to show that torpedo glow is caused by shields. You have provided no evidence whatsoever. And the incident was never specifically directed toward ship shields, just shields in general. You have provided no evidence as to why torpedo shields would be any different.

Actually pump enough power through everything and a ship looks like this:

Orion ship

Which looks remarkably like a photon torpedo.

That effect was removed in TOS Remastered. The shields don't glow.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Or ... stered.jpg

Negative. Anti-matter does not glow, I showed you a picture of essentially an anti-matter warhead and there was no glow. In addition we know photon grenades don't glow either so unless you have an example of a none torpedo anti-matter capsule which glows like a photon torpedo your "anti-matter" theroy is flawed and incorrect.

You can poke a couple flaws in it, yes, but the shield theory is hardly flawless either! By your own standard presented here, then, torpedo glow as shields is incorrect.

Only if I was saying the torpedo wouldn't be shot down. I'm not. I'm saying we lack information to make a determination, that neither side can claim an advantage on that score due to lack of facts on the matter.

What information do we lack? Let's put together a basic syllogism here:

GARDIAN is a system that shoots down missiles.
Photonic torpedoes are missiles.
Therefore, GARDIAN is a system that shoots down photonic torpedoes.

Based on the information we have, we are quite comfortable making that determination.

Actually with shields or without shields a torpedo's endurance would need to be quanitified by some manner in order to determin if the laser could hurt it. Either by knowing what its casing its made out of, and accompaning melting point, or a quanitfiable event showing the torpedo being fatally comprimised and destroyed. Then of course we would need to know the output of the laser.

No, you need to show that photonic torpedo endurance is anything out of the ordinary. The burden of proof is on you. If you don't have anything, we just default to the normal behavior of GARDIAN -- shooting down incoming missiles.