22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effect)

[User1401]

Instead of the Reaper invasion of ME or the Earth-Romulan War, several cross-dimensional wormholes open up across Citadel space leading to the founders of the United Federation of Planets. Both factions are utterly convinced that they must wipe out the other, or their galaxies will be destroyed. Which comes out on top?

Assume that the UFP fleet is basically just the combined fleets of humanity, Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites as of the end of Enterprise.

[Trinoya]

Dear god, what did mass effect do to you stargazer? The humans alone would have been a challenge, but actually putting it against the UFP just after the earth romulan war? Not cool...


The Vulcans and Andorians may have large enough forces to take the citadel races on their own honestly... we know they have advanced tech like shields and tractor beams, and they'd get transporter tech from the humans...

I'll return after I see if I can get some ship count information, but again, were talking just after a war for earth, so even they are going to likely have bolstered their numbers.

[User1401]

Earth-Romulan War? Wait, what? Did this war happen before the founding of the Federation?

I basically mean for this vs. to be against Earth, Vulcan, Andoria, and Tellarite Prime as of the end of Enterprise. What exactly is so huge about their advantage, anyways? Nothing from Enterprise indicated that their fleets were the same size that the Citadel races could field.

[Trinoya]

Earth romulan war happens before the founding of the federation by a few years, and actually helps cause it. The conflict was fairly large, and just included the two empires fighting, leaving out the others. By the time of the federation shared technologies like transporters, shields, and tractor beams, plus the war time fleets of the vulcans, andorians and tellerites, should result in a fairly conclusive stomp. A few well placed torpedoes should fairly easily take down the relay network, trashing the economy, cutting off the citadel, and dooming much of the ME universe.

[User1401]

Earth romulan war happens before the founding of the federation by a few years, and actually helps cause it. The conflict was fairly large, and just included the two empires fighting, leaving out the others.

Ok then. I shall amend the OP to say, "Instead of the Reapers or Romulans invading"

By the time of the federation shared technologies like transporters, shields, and tractor beams, plus the war time fleets of the vulcans, andorians and tellerites, should result in a fairly conclusive stomp.

Or the Citadel Fleets overwhelm them with greater numbers, firepower, and the ability to fight at much longer ranges.

A few well placed torpedoes should fairly easily take down the relay network, trashing the economy, cutting off the citadel, and dooming much of the ME universe.

...you're not familiar with what it takes to destroy a mass relay, are you? Relays are locked down at the quantum level (thus no weak spot for well-placed shots), are known to survive supernovae, and require chucking small planetoids at them to blow them up. Blowing them up causes a supernova-level explosion, wiping out whatever system they are in and whatever fleet is firing at them.

[Picard]

are known to survive supernovae

At what distance?

Note: Photon(ic) torpedoes are radiation weapons (something like big bad microwave ovens), meaning that kinetic barriers will be largely useless against them.

How ranges compare? I remember both having ranges well into thousands of kilometers, but I beleive Mass Effect has advantage in that area.

[User1401]

are known to survive supernovae

At what distance?

Unknown, but it was hit hard enough to knock it out of its system.

Note: Photon(ic) torpedoes are radiation weapons (something like big bad microwave ovens), meaning that kinetic barriers will be largely useless against them.

Yes, but at the same time GARDIAN laser defenses should be highly effective against torpedoes.

How ranges compare? I remember both having ranges well into thousands of kilometers, but I beleive Mass Effect has advantage in that area.

Dreadnoughts have ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers, while cruisers likely are in the thousands. I don't recall any examples in the thousands for ENT.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Or the Citadel Fleets overwhelm them with greater numbers, firepower, and the ability to fight at much longer ranges.

Back in ME1, the most powerful all had a handful of those long dreadnoughts, yet I remember calcs putting their firepower in the low-mid kiloton range for their mass drivers.
I could be wrong, of course, can't remember much.

A few well placed torpedoes should fairly easily take down the relay network, trashing the economy, cutting off the citadel, and dooming much of the ME universe.

...you're not familiar with what it takes to destroy a mass relay, are you? Relays are locked down at the quantum level (thus no weak spot for well-placed shots), are known to survive supernovae, and require chucking small planetoids at them to blow them up. Blowing them up causes a supernova-level explosion, wiping out whatever system they are in and whatever fleet is firing at them.

Wasn't one of them relays going to be blown to bits by something in on of the two latest ME games?

Unknown, but it was hit hard enough to knock it out of its system.

Being "knocked" off system when the main object which kept things in system has been blown off and turned into stellar drifting gases isn't really tantamount to anything impressive, barring the supernova itself.
Plus it's wild speculation until the orbital distance to the local star is known.

Yes, but at the same time GARDIAN laser defenses should be highly effective against torpedoes.

They are small point defense systems. Are the photonic torps as tough as those which were seen later on?

Dreadnoughts have ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers, while cruisers likely are in the thousands. I don't recall any examples in the thousands for ENT.

Torpedoes allow for any kind of long range in system. It's only a question of fuel for trajectory correction and guidance.
With ships being able to warp in at any range, by all logic, this should be a total massacre.

[Trinoya]

Ok then. I shall amend the OP to say, "Instead of the Reapers or Romulans invading"

That's all well and good, it's still not the UFP yet though, it's a collection of sovereign nations, each with their own separate military arms, two of which have been in a progressively violent cold war and military build up.

Or the Citadel Fleets overwhelm them with greater numbers, firepower, and
the ability to fight at much longer ranges.

I'm seeing some claims of greater fire power, numbers, and ranges, but I'm not seeing evidence. We have a few codex statements that put the alliance at 200-300 ships I believe, with the Turians being ahead of them, and with all the other races behind. We know that most of these ships sit around at relays waiting to respond to threats, and we know the biggest guns are rated in kilotons. Ranges may be very large, but since starships could dodge, intercept, or deflect any of these weapons with their current technologies, I doubt that the range effectiveness may be a major factor... perhaps for planetary bombardment...

Even the latter is moot though. For example, if you were to try to bomb earth in sol system, you'd have to worry about mars shooting at you with energy beams that are FTL AND capable of pinpoint city wide destruction.

Finally, what would be the solution to simply beaming torpedoes on board, or critical systems off of, mass effect ships?

...you're not familiar with what it takes to destroy a mass relay, are you? Relays are locked down at the quantum level (thus no weak spot for well-placed shots), are known to survive supernovae, and require chucking small planetoids at them to blow them up. Blowing them up causes a supernova-level explosion, wiping out whatever system they are in and whatever fleet is firing at them.

I am entirely aware of what it took, a big rock crashing into one, not a planetoid, it was an asteroid. You'd have to quantify the super nova hitting a relay based on distance, star type, etc... Super Novas are notably not FTL phenomenon in the real world, and can actually apply smaller ammounts of energy to push objects further from their star... which fits in well with the displacement. Until such quantification is done all I know is a big rock blew one up, and a super nova moved one.

Also super nova level explosions, complete with the subspace shockwave, can be out run fairly effortlessly in star trek.

Now then, as far as I'm aware a mass relay has no special defenses that make them immune to just putting bombs aboard them via transporters (a few well placed torpedoes), and as far as I'm aware if they can be destroyed easily from the outside, they can be destroyed easily from the inside. Relays can be pushed off course, which apparently can be a big issue in trying to rediscover them, and notably in trek things like tractor beams were implied to be able to move moons... I don't think the vulcans will have any trouble making that relay problem just simply go away.

Since the entirety of all trade and commerce is dependent upon these relays, I think it's a safe bet that the citadel races will likely collapse economically with their destruction to some degree. More importantly, these relays do not exist in the milky way galaxy, meaning the mass effect citadel races will require copious amounts of fuel in order for mass effect ships to travel, and they won't exactly have a refueling station conveniently located in any system they visit.



If this was just Earth starfleet vs all the mass effect races, I might be inclined to give it to mass effect, since the largest on screen showing, at one time, of starfleet vessels was over a dozen... Still, the picture painted in ENT was a galaxy on the verge of going to war at the drop of a hat, and with everyone on all sides, except the humans, getting ready for it. It's why the romulan attack on all the races was almost successful at turning them against one another, and why they chose stealth over direct combat.

[User1401]

Back in ME1, the most powerful all had a handful of those long dreadnoughts, yet I remember calcs putting their firepower in the low-mid kiloton range for their mass drivers.
I could be wrong, of course, can't remember much.

Between them, the Citadel races have 86 dreadnoughts, the main guns of which fire 38 kiloton (at least) rounds ever 2 seconds.

Wasn't one of them relays going to be blown to bits by something in on of the two latest ME games?

Yes, a relay was destroyed in a Mass Effect 2 DLC. By chucking a small planetoid at it. And, as I indicated, the system it was in got wiped out by a supernova-level explosion consequently.

Being "knocked" off system when the main object which kept things in system has been blown off and turned into stellar drifting gases isn't really tantamount to anything impressive, barring the supernova itself.
Plus it's wild speculation until the orbital distance to the local star is known.

It survived a supernova. In fact, it's described as being "undamaged". That's impressive by itself.

They are small point defense systems. Are the photonic torps as tough as those which were seen later on?

I don't see any reason to assume that they are.

Torpedoes allow for any kind of long range in system. It's only a question of fuel for trajectory correction and guidance.
With ships being able to warp in at any range, by all logic, this should be a total massacre.

Er, what? Evidence on that first statement? As for the second, it's only a massacre if torpedoes hit. They won't.

I'm seeing some claims of greater fire power, numbers, and ranges, but I'm not seeing evidence. We have a few codex statements that put the alliance at 200-300 ships I believe, with the Turians being ahead of them, and with all the other races behind. We know that most of these ships sit around at relays waiting to respond to threats, and we know the biggest guns are rated in kilotons. Ranges may be very large, but since starships could dodge, intercept, or deflect any of these weapons with their current technologies, I doubt that the range effectiveness may be a major factor... perhaps for planetary bombardment...

The 200 ship number comes from the novel "Mass Effect: Revelation", and it's referring to a single Alliance fleet directly prior to the First Contact War with the turians (over 30 years before the games). This fleet was likely the Second Fleet, as this fleet was preparing to counterattack the turians and the codex says the counterattackers were the Second Fleet. By the time of Mass Effect 3, the Alliance and turians both had at least seven fleets, the salarians had at least three, and the asari had at least six. If we assume a minimum of 200 ships per fleet, that's 4600 ships between the four of them.

And what evidence do you have that Trek ships will be able to easily "dodge, intercept, or deflect" 20 kg slugs moving at 1.3% of light speed?

Even the latter is moot though. For example, if you were to try to bomb earth in sol system, you'd have to worry about mars shooting at you with energy beams that are FTL AND capable of pinpoint city wide destruction.

Unless you're on the far side of Earth...

Finally, what would be the solution to simply beaming torpedoes on board, or critical systems off of, mass effect ships?

Kinetic barriers. Though I think we already discussed this on SB.

I am entirely aware of what it took, a big rock crashing into one, not a planetoid, it was an asteroid. You'd have to quantify the super nova hitting a relay based on distance, star type, etc... Super Novas are notably not FTL phenomenon in the real world, and can actually apply smaller ammounts of energy to push objects further from their star... which fits in well with the displacement. Until such quantification is done all I know is a big rock blew one up, and a super nova moved one.

It's described as a small planetoid, and that's still more firepower than the 22nd century Trek factions can muster.

Also super nova level explosions, complete with the subspace shockwave, can be out run fairly effortlessly in star trek.

Perhaps, but they won't be expecting it the first time, and judging by how close ST ships are when they shoot something...things won't be pretty for the first fleet that tries. Assuming they even can blow it up.

Now then, as far as I'm aware a mass relay has no special defenses that make them immune to just putting bombs aboard them via transporters (a few well placed torpedoes), and as far as I'm aware if they can be destroyed easily from the outside, they can be destroyed easily from the inside. Relays can be pushed off course, which apparently can be a big issue in trying to rediscover them, and notably in trek things like tractor beams were implied to be able to move moons... I don't think the vulcans will have any trouble making that relay problem just simply go away.

"Relays can shield themselves to preserve their integrity down to the quantum level, so taking a sample for analysis proves nigh impossible." -- from the codex. No transporter beaming. And tossing a small planetoid into a relay is still not something I'd call "easy".

Moving a relay probably is the better option (and it avoids the nasty "wipe out system" effect). However, the "move a moon" tractor beam examples come from 24th century Trek, IIRC. What's the biggest thing they've moved in Enterprise?

Since the entirety of all trade and commerce is dependent upon these relays, I think it's a safe bet that the citadel races will likely collapse economically with their destruction to some degree. More importantly, these relays do not exist in the milky way galaxy, meaning the mass effect citadel races will require copious amounts of fuel in order for mass effect ships to travel, and they won't exactly have a refueling station conveniently located in any system they visit.

That's what supply lines are for. Also, since they run on antimatter and fusion, they should be able to take fuel from Trek fuel depots.

If this was just Earth starfleet vs all the mass effect races, I might be inclined to give it to mass effect, since the largest on screen showing, at one time, of starfleet vessels was over a dozen... Still, the picture painted in ENT was a galaxy on the verge of going to war at the drop of a hat, and with everyone on all sides, except the humans, getting ready for it. It's why the romulan attack on all the races was almost successful at turning them against one another, and why they chose stealth over direct combat.

So? The Citadel races are (regardless of publicly refusing to acknowledge it) getting ready for the Reaper invasion. How does this make a difference?

[Trinoya]

The 200 ship number comes from the novel "Mass Effect: Revelation", and it's referring to a single Alliance fleet directly prior to the First Contact War with the turians (over 30 years before the games). This fleet was likely the Second Fleet, as this fleet was preparing to counterattack the turians and the codex says the counterattackers were the Second Fleet. By the time of Mass Effect 3, the Alliance and turians both had at least seven fleets, the salarians had at least three, and the asari had at least six. If we assume a minimum of 200 ships per fleet, that's 4600 ships between the four of them.

As far as I know, the 200+ ship number and several dreadnoughts was in reference to the entire fleet for the first contact war, with the implication that it has grown, but not overly so. The only TOTAL fleet number I have ever been able to find is 200+ ships with 8 dreadnoughts, with the Turians having more.

Can you quote the passage that shows that this is one fleet, as all interpretations I have currently imply that it was the bulk of their navy.

And what evidence do you have that Trek ships will be able to easily "dodge, intercept, or deflect" 20 kg slugs moving at 1.3% of light speed?

Because trek ships have dodged FTL objects before, and their deflectors are designed to push objects out of their way while traveling at the speed of light. This is seemingly decidedly like we are rehashing from the spacebattles thread, in which none of us got very far, and perhaps that has more to do with a lack of evidence for both of us than anyone being particularly hard headed (since you seem like a reasonable bloke).

Even the latter is moot though. For example, if you were to try to bomb earth in sol system, you'd have to worry about mars shooting at you with energy beams that are FTL AND capable of pinpoint city wide destruction.

Unless you're on the far side of Earth...

Ironically, on the star date the weapon was demonstrated to be able to attack Earth, presuming the weapon functioned in a straight line it would have been incapable of actually hitting their designated target on earth since there would be no straight path from earth to mars that the weapon could have used. This is one of those, "writers didn't do the research" moments, but it is cute that this is already dealt with by the event.

Mind you, it clearly wasn't their intent.

Kinetic barriers. Though I think we already discussed this on SB.

Indeed, as I feared this is more of a rehash ultimately...



Why don't we wait for the mass effect DLC to come out, since it will provide epilogue information that may further help clear up some of our disagreements, although in regards to this one argument I believe it was conceded as potentially being ineffective against transporters.


So yeah, really all we will be doing is going in circles atm, and I think both of us have enough evidence to keep it perpetuating at the moment, and never truly reach a consensus.

Of note: Rumor has it we will be seeing the result of the collapse of the relay system, if true we should get some more information on their economical impacts of their destruction/replacement.

[User1401]

As far as I know, the 200+ ship number and several dreadnoughts was in reference to the entire fleet for the first contact war, with the implication that it has grown, but not overly so. The only TOTAL fleet number I have ever been able to find is 200+ ships with 8 dreadnoughts, with the Turians having more.

Can you quote the passage that shows that this is one fleet, as all interpretations I have currently imply that it was the bulk of their navy.

Ok, I cracked open Revelation to look up the quotes, and I admit, it's referred to as "the entire Alliance fleet" So, bare minimum, the Alliance, turians, and asari have 200 ships each, and the salarians have maybe 100 ships, for a total of about 700 ships. That's still much, much in excess of what we see for Enterprise-era Trek factions. Bare minimum -- we know that the Alliance can build a dreadnought in a year (built two in the two years between ME1 and ME2, and another in the one year between ME2 and ME3. As of ME3, they have at least 9), and they can likely churn out cruisers and frigates faster than that. We know the Alliance had at least 2 separate fleets at the time of the First Contact War, so maybe we can half my first estimate down to 2300 ships, with 100 ships per fleet.

A little piece of corroborating evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMu1WRgYB7U In this official trailer, the Alliance fleet is referred to have thousands of ships.

Because trek ships have dodged FTL objects before, and their deflectors are designed to push objects out of their way while traveling at the speed of light. This is seemingly decidedly like we are rehashing from the spacebattles thread, in which none of us got very far, and perhaps that has more to do with a lack of evidence for both of us than anyone being particularly hard headed (since you seem like a reasonable bloke).

Yes, I concluded that we can't take navigational deflectors repelling debris at FTL at face value. If we do, that leaves us with deflectors repelling hundreds of megatons of force, much in excess of their normal defensive systems. Something else must factor in, like the mass-lightening effect of the warp field.

Ironically, on the star date the weapon was demonstrated to be able to attack Earth, presuming the weapon functioned in a straight line it would have been incapable of actually hitting their designated target on earth since there would be no straight path from earth to mars that the weapon could have used. This is one of those, "writers didn't do the research" moments, but it is cute that this is already dealt with by the event.

Mind you, it clearly wasn't their intent.

"Dealt with by the event"? It's just an error. Or are you claiming that the weapon somehow shoots through earth?

Indeed, as I feared this is more of a rehash ultimately...

Why don't we wait for the mass effect DLC to come out, since it will provide epilogue information that may further help clear up some of our disagreements, although in regards to this one argument I believe it was conceded as potentially being ineffective against transporters.

So yeah, really all we will be doing is going in circles atm, and I think both of us have enough evidence to keep it perpetuating at the moment, and never truly reach a consensus.

Of note: Rumor has it we will be seeing the result of the collapse of the relay system, if true we should get some more information on their economical impacts of their destruction/replacement.

I conceded that it was more of an assumption than something I could prove, yes. Alternatively, you can't prove that transporters can beam through kinetic barriers. I will point out that mass relays are NOT protected by kinetic barriers, it's a different shielding system entirely.

I don't see how the ending DLC would change anything about this matchup. Sure, it could show how the economy recovers, but that would only matter if you could prove that the ST races could blow up or move relays in the first place. Which you haven't.

[Lucky]

Honestly, I'm likely the guy who likes Star Trek the least on this board the only one who seems to remember these things?

Yes, I concluded that we can't take navigational deflectors repelling debris at FTL at face value. If we do, that leaves us with deflectors repelling hundreds of megatons of force, much in excess of their normal defensive systems.

TUCKER: Beautiful. Lock it off right there.
(wipes a fingerprint off the warp console) 

REED: I believe you missed a spot. Commander Tucker, Ensign Travis Mayweather. He just arrived. 

TUCKER: Our space boomer. 

TRAVIS: How fast have you gotten her? 

TUCKER: Warp four. We'll be going to four five as soon as we clear Jupiter. Think you can handle it? 

TRAVIS: Four point five. 

REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist. 

TUCKER: Keep your shirt on, Lieutenant. Your equipment'll be here in the morning.

http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 164&page=5

Navigational deflectors move things out of the way of the ship.

The Navigational Deflector is omni-directional. Kirk has the Enterprise fly in reverse at FTL to dodge a torpedo.

JELLICO: Been awhile since I flew one of these. You're a pilot yourself, aren't you Geordi? 

LAFORGE: Yes, sir. 

JELLICO: I began my career as a shuttle pilot, on the Jovian run. Jupiter to Saturn and back once a day, every day. 

LAFORGE: Is that right? I was on that run myself for a while. 

JELLICO: Then you must've done Titan's Turn. 

LAFORGE: Oh, yeah. You set a course directly for Titan, hold it until you're just brushing the atmosphere, throw the helm hard over and whip around the moon at point seven c. 

JELLICO: And pray like hell nobody saw you. 

LAFORGE: You know, this trip into the nebula's going to need someone who can do Titan's Turn in their sleep. These mines need to be laid within two kilometres of the Cardassian ships. But the particle flux from the nebula will blind all the sensors except for this proximity detector. You're going to need one heck of a pilot to pull that off. 

JELLICO: Is that you? 

LAFORGE: I could do it, but truthfully, the man you want is Commander Riker. He's the best there is.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... 24&page=11
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1852.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1853.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... ?album=425
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1885.jpg

Navigational Deflectors let tiny shuttles travel at 70% the speed of light through Titan's atmosphere.

A Klingon ship can travel at FTL speeds in Earth's atmosphere

Something else must factor in, like the mass-lightening effect of the warp field.

LAFORGE: You know, this might work. We can't change the gravitational constant of the universe, but if we wrap a low level warp field around that moon, we could reduce its gravitational constant. Make it lighter so we can push it.

DAX: Couldn't you modify the subspace field output of the deflector generators just enough to create a low-level field around the station? 

O'BRIEN: So we could lower the inertial mass? 

DAX: If you can make the station lighter, those six thrusters will be all the power we'd need. 

O'BRIEN: This whole station could break apart like an egg if it doesn't work.

I'm not sure these fields have the effect you think they do? They certainly don't seem to be the standard mode of operation for those systems.

I don't see how the ending DLC would change anything about this matchup. Sure, it could show how the economy recovers, but that would only matter if you could prove that the ST races could blow up or move relays in the first place. Which you haven't.

Why wouldn't a Star Trek power be able to move a mass relay?

[User1401]

Navigational deflectors move things out of the way of the ship.

...ok?

The Navigational Deflector is omni-directional. Kirk has the Enterprise fly in reverse at FTL to dodge a torpedo.

Reference? If the navigational deflectors really are omni-directional, and their deflection at FTL is taken at face value, then by all means they should be the primary defense rather than normal shields (they work on energy weapons like lasers)

And that's a 23rd century example, not a 22nd century example.

Navigational Deflectors let tiny shuttles travel at 70% the speed of light through Titan's atmosphere.

Even better, a 24th century example.

A Klingon ship can travel at FTL speeds in Earth's atmosphere

23rd century example, and doesn't disprove the idea that the warp field is lightening the mass of impacting objects.

I'm not sure these fields have the effect you think they do? They certainly don't seem to be the standard mode of operation for those systems.

Um, thanks for providing my evidence?

Why wouldn't a Star Trek power be able to move a mass relay?

The real question is why would a 22nd century Star Trek power be able to move a mass relay.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Being "knocked" off system when the main object which kept things in system has been blown off and turned into stellar drifting gases isn't really tantamount to anything impressive, barring the supernova itself.
Plus it's wild speculation until the orbital distance to the local star is known.

It survived a supernova. In fact, it's described as being "undamaged". That's impressive by itself.

Not necessarily. As hinted at by Trinoya, the relay could have been pushed off by the mere constant stream of particles resulting from the star's sudden expansion. At some point, there's still enough total mass projected over the surface of the object to move it like we'd move an asteroid with near-future tech, but the density of matter hitting the relay per second needs not be huge either.

They are small point defense systems. Are the photonic torps as tough as those which were seen later on?

I don't see any reason to assume that they are.

Trouble is, they do have that glow, which is quite consistent. Now, it's never been established as being related to shields, but it's quite a thing that it's never been attempted to shoot down such torps with phasers unless the torp was shot down by its firer. Torps to shoot down torps, that I think we saw it happen several times, even once in ENT eventually, perhaps to stop some torps from hitting a planet.

Although it's conjectural, it's also been very likely and the best theory out there for decades.
So the probabilities that the Citadel Races may not be able to shoot down those torps are extremely high.

Torpedoes allow for any kind of long range in system. It's only a question of fuel for trajectory correction and guidance.
With ships being able to warp in at any range, by all logic, this should be a total massacre.

Er, what? Evidence on that first statement?

Unless you believe that they should behave like cannon balls outside of any interference, I can't see how an advanced system such as this one could not apply course correction, especially over long distance (as opposed to tight turns over shorter ones).
We can do it with clumsy modules and STL comms.

As for the second, it's only a massacre if torpedoes hit. They won't.

All probabilities show that they'd hit very easily. They most likely couldn't be shot down, and they'd be too fast to be intercepted by a wide variety of systems and counter measures that'd stand a chance against unprotected fragile missiles.
Add to the fact that a glancing area blast in the low megaton it still going to roast significant patches of hulls.