22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effect)

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:44 pm

Stargazer wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Sure... when they hit at several kilometers per second.
Don't you feel like we're a bit far from the mark as far as the Alpha relay is concerned? :)
Considering that the asteroid was more than a dozen kilometers in diameter, it likely was moving a several kilometers a second.
Since the asteroid was of the same size as the MR, since the MR is not 15 km long, and finally since the asteroid wasn't even covering its own length over the course of a second, you are absolutely incorrect here.
Slow paced momentum is what ruined that relay, that is all.
Tell me if visuals from the game count more than anything other data found on Internet or from official source and I may produce some pictures proving me right.
Aside from being self contradictory, the text is best rationalized as it's infeasible to blast a relay without hurting the systems it lies in.
However, considering the OP, this discussion about destroying relays is only relevant if Trek forces enter the ME universe through the wormholes. Considering the fleet sizes for ME and the proximity to high profile worlds (those ME fleets are literally dumped at the doorsteps of those prime worlds), there isn't much left to discuss, is there?
Trek ships aren't advanced enough to compensate for the large amount of ships from ME.
Their phase cannons and similar disruptors aren't even as powerful as the main guns on the most powerful ME ships, which already come in greater quantities, in greater sizes, with more range and so on.
What's self-contradictory? The idea that the Alpha Relay's unique energy level is what caused its system's destruction originated from you, not the codex.
It says a MR can't be destroyed but later says one has been destroyed. The rationalization, which is alluded to in the text in fact, is that what makes it infeasible is not the forces required to destroy the MR, but the dramatic effects resulting from such an act.
And I never said that the wormholes open right next to prime worlds, did I? I guess we could just say that the wormholes open on the edges of each faction's territory.
OK.
Now this thread is a bit old, so may I ask again what allows ME to move fast enough through Trek's territories?
Trek forces, in Citadel space, still have access to warp, although they have no starchart. But the ME forces lack both starcharts and mass relays.
Certainly not in this case, and it's fairly easy to know how and find yard stones to use as points of reference. In the DLC cutscene, we have two viewpoints to determine the distance between the SR-2 and the relay, as the ship leaves a bubble where it was. We also have the advantage of knowing that a ship launched by a relay follows the direction of the relay, at least at first when it's still in the system. It means the launching trajectory follows a vector defined by the direction which the two relay's arms point into. We see that bubble effect twice although there's one single launch bubble, because of the cut from one angle to another. The first shot lets us know where the bubble appeared in relation to the relay's length, which distance wise is quite close to the glowing ovoid center, and inside the gap between the two arms. The second shot shows how far from the relay the bubble is, because we know where the bubble would have been located if the ship had to place itself between the two arms to be launched.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLF1m3lK6dI

You know, I'm not even sure what you're going on about here. At 2:27 we can see that the relay is many, many times longer than the Normandy SR-2. Is it really that hard to think that the relay is 15 km long based on that?
Yes.
I gave you a list of visual clues that show that the two MR we saw in ME2 and ME3 aren't 15 km long.
Besides, 15,000 / 170 = 88.2353
So you need more than 88 Normandys in a row to match a length of 15 km.
Please use that with my observations from former posts to see why the 15 km claim cannot work.
The length for the Normandy-SR2, I picked it from Picard's list.
The ship in Mass Effect 2 clearly is considerably smaller. The scene with the asteroid allows us to see how large the door which Shep jumps through is. Later on, we get a view of the whole ship and the door closed. If I had to make a comparison with a modern craft, I'd say it's barely beyond the length of a Boeing 747 (about 70 m) without making any further calcs. Globally, I'd put the SR2 between 70 and 80 m long.
At 80 m, you need 187.5 SR2s in a row to complete a 15 km length, which again is totally contradicted by no less than two different cutscenes fro mtwo different games.
Does that make it superior canon or lower canon? Is there any hierarchy?
There is no official hierarchy. It's simply canon.
So it means that I can use the figures which come from the most numerous different sources. Methinks this would be in favour of the games' cutscenes then.
Would they really bother though? Contextually, these are crews, it is possible that they would just say shields knowing full well that their respective captains would understand that they're talking about their ship's shields. Over the entire course of the show, they keep saying shields up, down, deactivated, down to, etc. while rarely saying "ship shields".
That's beside the point.
No it is not. You argued about the use of the term shield as part of your side of the argument, and I've explained why I don't think it rules out anything, as I don't believe people on the bridge in charge of the shields would always bother to say "ship's shields" instead of merely "shields", see?
The point is that there is no evidence that regular, ship-mounted shields and the hypothetical torpedo shields operate differently. I mean, you can pretend that they are different so you can maintain consistent head-canon, and more power to you; but the fact is there's no evidence for the purpose of a vs. debate.
OK.
I didn't avoid providing any evidence because I made it clear it was based on logic and indirect. Otherwise I'd have gladly presented evidence, as I had no reason to withhold it.
So, you admit to not having evidence? At least you're being honest now.
Now? Have you been sleeping the whole time or something? Have I ever claimed having any solid direct evidence besides my speculation and indirect evidence based on reasoning (which was solely on the behalf of the validity of my thoughts)?
However, I'd like to know how the heck they count on aiming those fixed guns against ships that are so mobile as those in Trek. Speed of the projectile doesn't suffice to guarantee a hit. How long does it take to fire? Is it completely automatized as if you were playing quake with a railgun and a cheat bot that automatically fired anytime a foe crossed the crosshair?
The main gun takes fires every 2 seconds, at least.
Ok, that's not going to be useful. Trek ships merely need to warp close to those ships so much that their maneuverability puts them out of the firing arc of the main guns.

What's the firepower of a ship like the SR2?

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:51 pm

Actually, checking the ME wikia's talk page about that ship (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Normandy_SR-2), it appears I'm not the only one considering the ship to be under 100 m.
Damn, this phalanx-a-pedian also compares this to a 747. o_O

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by User1401 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:03 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Since the asteroid was of the same size as the MR, since the MR is not 15 km long, and finally since the asteroid wasn't even covering its own length over the course of a second, you are absolutely incorrect here.
Slow paced momentum is what ruined that relay, that is all.
Tell me if visuals from the game count more than anything other data found on Internet or from official source and I may produce some pictures proving me right.
A mass relay is 15 km long, and there is a canon source backing that up.
It says a MR can't be destroyed but later says one has been destroyed. The rationalization, which is alluded to in the text in fact, is that what makes it infeasible is not the forces required to destroy the MR, but the dramatic effects resulting from such an act.
...it doesn't say that. It says it's infeasible, which means extremely impractical. And yeah, the explosion is part of what makes it infeasible. What's your point?
OK.
Now this thread is a bit old, so may I ask again what allows ME to move fast enough through Trek's territories?
Trek forces, in Citadel space, still have access to warp, although they have no starchart. But the ME forces lack both starcharts and mass relays.
Mass Effect ships still have realspace FTL drives, which can go to speeds of 15 ly per day. They have limitations other than speed, though.
Yes.
I gave you a list of visual clues that show that the two MR we saw in ME2 and ME3 aren't 15 km long.
Besides, 15,000 / 170 = 88.2353
So you need more than 88 Normandys in a row to match a length of 15 km.
Please use that with my observations from former posts to see why the 15 km claim cannot work.
The shot of the SR-2 passing the Alpha Relay looks like it could easily be around 80 or 90 times its length.
The length for the Normandy-SR2, I picked it from Picard's list.
Much of Picard's list is nonsense that he pulled out of the air.
The ship in Mass Effect 2 clearly is considerably smaller. The scene with the asteroid allows us to see how large the door which Shep jumps through is. Later on, we get a view of the whole ship and the door closed. If I had to make a comparison with a modern craft, I'd say it's barely beyond the length of a Boeing 747 (about 70 m) without making any further calcs. Globally, I'd put the SR2 between 70 and 80 m long.
At 80 m, you need 187.5 SR2s in a row to complete a 15 km length, which again is totally contradicted by no less than two different cutscenes fro mtwo different games.
I'd love to see you actually prove this with pictures.
So it means that I can use the figures which come from the most numerous different sources. Methinks this would be in favour of the games' cutscenes then.
Except the cutscenes don't provide hard numbers at all, and the book does.
No it is not. You argued about the use of the term shield as part of your side of the argument, and I've explained why I don't think it rules out anything, as I don't believe people on the bridge in charge of the shields would always bother to say "ship's shields" instead of merely "shields", see?
The point is that there is still no evidence that ship shields and torpedo shields are any different. That's the point, and your statement was beside the point. The crew saying "ship shields" would be evidence in your favor, but they don't. Whether or not they would differentiate the shields is irrelevant if there's no reason to think they are different in the first place.
OK.
Then don't go claiming it in a vs. debate.
Now? Have you been sleeping the whole time or something? Have I ever claimed having any solid direct evidence besides my speculation and indirect evidence based on reasoning (which was solely on the behalf of the validity of my thoughts)?
I kind of expect you to at least think you can back up your claims if you're participating in a vs. debate. Apparently you don't even have that.
What's the firepower of a ship like the SR2?
The SR-2 is a bit of a special case. It uses a special cannon that gives it the firepower of a cruiser, even though the SR-2 is classified as a frigate. (Both cruiser and frigate firepower are undefined, though I would assume each are an order of magnitude lower than dreadnought firepower). This cannon is becoming more common as of Mass Effect 3.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Actually, checking the ME wikia's talk page about that ship (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Normandy_SR-2), it appears I'm not the only one considering the ship to be under 100 m.
Damn, this phalanx-a-pedian also compares this to a 747. o_O
And? This is a fan's opinion using a non-canon image.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:40 pm

Dang, I just realized that the picture I was using as a reference was of the SR1. -_-'
I'm probably the last dude on Earth who hasn't played any of the Mass Effect games yet and can't make the difference at first glance. I hadn't noticed the considerable change of dimensions between the two. Sucks. I thought they had just increased the width of the central section plus some other cosmetic changes. With the correct size in mind, it could work with the 15 km long mass relay.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Picard » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 am

Much of Picard's list is nonsense that he pulled out of the air.
Only things "pulled out of the air" on that list are lenghts of Normandies and cruisers. Everything else is stated in canon or can be calculated using other canon ships for reference.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Picard » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:28 am

If we go with battle of the Citadel, Sovereign is 2 000 m long as per Codex, meaning that Turian cruisers should be cca 500 meters long, Alliance cruiser about same, Destiny Acension some 800 meters. on the other hand, Geth cruiser should be some 400 meters long. In Mass Effect 3 final space battle, I'd put Alliance dreadnought at some 750 meters, Asari cruiser at some 400 meters.

Quarian cruiser / transport ship would also be 500 meters long, which would make liveships some 2 000 meters long.

Normandy SR1 would be some 250 meters, SR2 200 meters according to cinematics, though...
Last edited by Picard on Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Picard » Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:38 am

Citadel relay looks like being Sovereign's lenght, or about 2 kilometers. Similar length is supported when Alliance cruisers come through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKIbuNajk6U

Earth relay also looks like being 2 kilometers long, maybe 2,5 if we use Destiny Ascension as reference instead of Alliance cruisers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKIbuNajk6U

So, Stargazer, unless your "canon source" is Codex itself...

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by User1401 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:16 am

Picard wrote:Only things "pulled out of the air" on that list are lenghts of Normandies and cruisers. Everything else is stated in canon or can be calculated using other canon ships for reference.
The only things we have hard numbers on are the length of mass relays, Sovereign's length, the length of the Citadel, and the general length of dreadnoughts. Everything else is just your conjecture. The problem is that you posted your conjecture mixed in with the canon numbers as if there was no difference, which is misleading, especially to posters like Oragahn who are not all too familiar with the material.
Picard wrote:If we go with battle of the Citadel, Sovereign is 2 000 m long as per Codex, meaning that Turian cruisers should be cca 500 meters long, Alliance cruiser about same, Destiny Acension some 800 meters. on the other hand, Geth cruiser should be some 400 meters long. In Mass Effect 3 final space battle, I'd put Alliance dreadnought at some 750 meters, Asari cruiser at some 400 meters.

Quarian cruiser / transport ship would also be 500 meters long, which would make liveships some 2 000 meters long.
I'd love to see screenshots where you actually make these size comparisons. Otherwise this remains "pulling numbers out of thin air". Some of your conclusions just plain can't be true; a dreadnought's length at minimum is 800 meters, it can't be 750.
Normandy SR1 would be some 250 meters, SR2 200 meters according to cinematics, though...
Which has to be wrong, since we know that the SR-2 is bigger than the SR-1.
Picard wrote:Citadel relay looks like being Sovereign's lenght, or about 2 kilometers. Similar length is supported when Alliance cruisers come through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKIbuNajk6U

Earth relay also looks like being 2 kilometers long, maybe 2,5 if we use Destiny Ascension as reference instead of Alliance cruisers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKIbuNajk6U

So, Stargazer, unless your "canon source" is Codex itself...
Nowhere do we see a profile shot which can actually be used for scalling. We have no idea what distance the ships actually are from the relay when they emerge (both the codex and in-game dialogue state that ships can emerge thousands or even tens of thousands of miles from a relay).

So yeah, the canon number from the official Mass Effect novel "Revelation" stands.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Picard » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:17 pm

The only things we have hard numbers on are the length of mass relays, Sovereign's length, the length of the Citadel, and the general length of dreadnoughts. Everything else is just your conjecture. The problem is that you posted your conjecture mixed in with the canon numbers as if there was no difference, which is misleading, especially to posters like Oragahn who are not all too familiar with the material.
Everything I listed is either stated or can be extrapolated.
I'd love to see screenshots where you actually make these size comparisons. Otherwise this remains "pulling numbers out of thin air". Some of your conclusions just plain can't be true; a dreadnought's length at minimum is 800 meters, it can't be 750.
It was eyeballing from video, but I am quite certain of its accuracy.
Which has to be wrong, since we know that the SR-2 is bigger than the SR-1.
Yes I know, that's why I noted it.
Nowhere do we see a profile shot which can actually be used for scalling. We have no idea what distance the ships actually are from the relay when they emerge (both the codex and in-game dialogue state that ships can emerge thousands or even tens of thousands of miles from a relay).
What? You lack 3d vision? In both instances we clearly see that ships are not thousands or hundreds kilometers away, as ships in fleets are densely formed, and in latter case (Sol system relay jump) fleets surround the relay.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by User1401 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:42 am

Picard wrote:It was eyeballing from video
It was eyeballing from video
It was eyeballing
Alright then. Until you actually make the effort to do some screenshots and show the scaling, we have nothing else to discuss. Your opinion on what you see is hardly worth much against canon details.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:25 pm

One could only eyeball the relay if he knew how close to the relay the entering ships were, and if the ships appeared next to the relay's core, in a way similar to the SRs when they were seen leaving systems, grazing the relays and booming out once passing the core with its ovoid rings.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by Picard » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:09 pm

Which was EXACTLY the case.

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Re: 22nd Century Federation vs. The Citadel Races (Mass Effe

Post by User1401 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:26 pm

No, it isn't. We never get a profile shot comparing the relay with Sovereign or other ships in the battle of the Citadel which can be used for accurate scaling.

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