Starfleet Jedi

What follows is a near replica of a thread i started on SB. I'm curious to see what people here will conclude:

Consider a galaxy, say the milky way, inhabited by both Trek and Gate races for some odd reason. The Trek races will work together and ditto for the Gate races. The ultimate goal being the extermination of the other verse's factions by any means necessary. Oh, and all races will have massive doses of 'Smart' injected into them. If you want, you can dictate completly what the races should do. Though you can't assume they know stuff they shouldn't know. They will get tech swapping capabilites and the works. Cobble together superships and whatever, as long as it's at least somewhat realistic and can be proven to work.

The races involved are The Federation, The Klingons and The Romulans for the Trek side. The races for the Gate side are The Goa'Uld under Anubis, The Wraith and the Tau'Ri.

I've also been thinking about doing a similar thing for the higher tier civlizations of both verses. But we'll see how this one goes first. Just to get a bead on what's balanced.

Addendum 1: The entire galaxy will have a Stargate network, even the Trek sides can use it.

Addendum 2: One-shot devices can be used, as long as they can be proven to work the way they are supposed to when used again.

What year(s) does this occur?

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:What year(s) does this occur?

Assume that all factions are at their height. The event itself is occuring in a time and place where the backdrop of the SGverse and STverse is not an issue, as the backdrop doesn't exist.

EDIT: TNG era though, naturally.

So Trek has all those lame plot devices, I mean uber future tech from Voyager?

Unless Quantum Slipstream Drive is standard issue on the Trek ships, they can't keep up with the SG races at FTL velocities. Ship count wise, the Trek races are going to have between 20,000 and 30,000 ships among them, SG races simply don't seem to have many ships, have we ever seen more than a dozen in a single engagement?

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:Unless Quantum Slipstream Drive is standard issue on the Trek ships, they can't keep up with the SG races at FTL velocities.

Well, not quite. Hyperdrive is as inconsistent as Warp drive. At the end of the first season a Goa'uld Ha'tak mothership is only capable of 10c but later on, at the end of season 4, maximum hyperdrive speed for a mothership is at least 32,000c. By late sixth season, the Prometheus, using the hyperdrive of an Al'kesh could go at almost 300,000c but needed regular cool-down periods scheduled approximately every 49 light years. It’s not until the late eight season that the Prometheus got a new Asgard hyperdrive capable of 1,314,000c. So, actually the faster Federation starships can compete with Goa'uld Ha'tak motherships making 32,000c, and since the Goa'uld seem to have the larger fleets the speed difference is not that big of an issue.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote: Ship count wise, the Trek races are going to have between 20,000 and 30,000 ships among them, SG races simply don't seem to have many ships, have we ever seen more than a dozen in a single engagement?

AFAIK we don’t. The loss of a couple of motherships at the beginning of the second season was a very serious blow for Apophis, so I’m guessing small fleets is all they have.

AFT wrote:Well, not quite. Hyperdrive is as inconsistent as Warp drive. At the end of the first season a Goa'uld Ha'tak mothership is only capable of 10c but later on, at the end of season 4, maximum hyperdrive speed for a mothership is at least 32,000c. By late sixth season, the Prometheus, using the hyperdrive of an Al'kesh could go at almost 300,000c but needed regular cool-down periods scheduled approximately every 49 light years. It’s not until the late eight season that the Prometheus got a new Asgard hyperdrive capable of 1,314,000c. So, actually the faster Federation starships can compete with Goa'uld Ha'tak motherships making 32,000c, and since the Goa'uld seem to have the larger fleets the speed difference is not that big of an issue.

Well, at least now the BC-304's have rediculously fast hyperdrives. We're talking inter-galactic travel in a few hours tops. Can't remember what the speeds for Ha'taks were though. In enemies, we get a clear cut statement about how long it'll take a Ha'tak to travel from a distant galaxy to the milky way, but i can't remember the numbers involved.

The 10c thing i wouldn't put much stock in though. Because it was said in the episode that "obviously these ships can travel a lot faster then 10c" when Carter notices that a trip that should've lasted a year only took a few hours. Spacebattles and a civilization spanning an entire galaxy also becomes a bit strained if this was ever true. Most likely Teal'c was just kept in the dark about how fast Goa'uld ships were.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:AFAIK we don’t. The loss of a couple of motherships at the beginning of the second season was a very serious blow for Apophis, so I’m guessing small fleets is all they have.

No solid figures for the SG side when it comes to either the Goa'uld or the Wraith.

The Wraith did have about 60 Hiveships in season 1 of Atlantis, with an unknown number of additional Cruisers. And if memory serves there were something like 300 Ha'taks at the battle for Dakara.

There's also an image on a screen depicting bugged Ha'taks in one episode, along comes a line something like "This is just a small part of the galaxy" and "We're loosing ships at a constant rate", i did the numbers on the loosing ships thing and came up to about 10 000 ships. But i pretty much dismissed that since it doesn't really mesh well with other things in gate-verse.

The Tau'ri of course only have three ships, but those are so far wanked by now that it's just plain silly. We've got the Odyssey that is able to cloak itself (maybe even phase-cloak), able to erect time-dilation fields and even reverse time inside them, has both a ZPM and an Asgard power-core powering it, has beaming weapons capable of bringing down Ori Motherships and probably a slew of other nifty things, like "go-somewhere" beams. The Deaddy i suppose is pretty normal all things considered and the the Apollo of course has its MK IX nukes coupled with smaller stuff like puddle-jumpers and whatnot.

Hyperdrives

I'm completely clueless as to where that 32,000 c comes from.

In Gateworld's thread Ha'taks specs, I tried to compile a few values obtained since then.

- 10 c. Orignal known speed for a ha'tak, according to Teal'c. Trouble is that later on, we realize he may not know everything about those ships. He may have extrapolated the speed of a lighter vessel and assumed a ha'tal was at least capable of that.
- 3,652.425 c. New speed in the same episode as above, due to earlier arrival.
- 8,000.16 c. Normal ha'tak, from Exodus/Enemies, for the return trip. No replicator upgrade whatsoever, since it's irrelevant.

Coincidentally, that 32,000 c is the low end FTL speed I obtained for Wraith hyperdrives.

Now, if a Prometheus, with a scoutship hyperdrive linked to a capital ship eractor, could go fast (at what speed again?), then there's a problem, because ha'taks should be able to go at least as fast as what the Prometheus was able to.


Numbering the ha'taks

There are roughly 30 vs 40 or more ha'taks, so a total not even surpassing 100.

During Reckoning, we learn that Anubis had been sending the fleet to fight for Dakara.

Then, in some episode later on, another character, either an Asgard, Baal or whoever, reveals that this fleet was actually a portion of the real fleet.

A year ago, at SG1archive.com (an old thread), I tried to estimate the number of ha'taks in total. It gave numbers reaching the many tens of thousands, and that was the very low end, because Jacob had actually explained that the destruction/conversion was actually exponentional, while I consider a linear expansion.

Most of Stargate actually had us think that there always a total of a couple of hundred ha'taks, maybe a thousand at best during a key period of active fighting between domains, but not more.

Another thread shows how unlikely even Sokar, able to strike 6 key Lords at the same time, wouldn't be able to bring more than 150 ha'taks at best.

I believe Apophis' loss of power within the goa'uld hierarchy had more to do with the fact that he was bitchslaped by primitives and lost two motherships against them than anything else. When he got directly defeated, his armies were without a Lord, and likely either absorbed by other System Lords, or destroyed by coordinated attacks.


Regarding the versus

I'm not well aware of Trek's warp speeds, and the only thing I could find was Wong's page on it.
I don't know how reliable it is, but it seems that Trek is hugely inconsistent regarding those speeds.
I've often heard how TOS had punchy FTLs, and how a show like voyager relies on a sluggish drive to explain the issue the Voyager crew has to deal with.

Let's say in the light of contradictory elements, if the Trek side wants to use the high ends, the Gate side will also be able to do so.

It would also appear that warp can be interdicted (à la Star Wars' EU) by gravity wells which Gate drives completely ignore, unless they reach the levels of big black holes.

When it comes to firepower and shielding, it's murky, but if we take shielding as a reference, then it seems that Trek is quite below what Gate is capable of. Plus those 200 MT were for a single blast I believe. Considering that with gun position, for an orbital bombardment, at least 6 main guns could bring brought to bear, that would be 1.2 Gt per salvo, and a hundreds of them to take down a typical ha'tak's shields. It seems a bit too long, considering the low ROF.

Here, it appeared that a ha'tak would be able to deal with a galaxy class ship and get the upper hand.

What's Trek level of shielding for such galaxy class ships for example?
I find that gigaton phaser level calc a bit odd since I've seen torpedoe calcs, on Robert's page, argue for yields of low 3 digit megatons at best. Are their torpedoes much weaker than thei phasers? If that was the case, wouldn't they actually use torpedoes instead of phasers when getting really close to enemy ships? I remember footage from DS9 battles where most of the weapons were pulse guns and phaser like beams, used at spitting range.

As for Stargate, you have to consider key superships, either Sokar/Apophis' one, or Anubis'. Those ships alone were able to kick standard ha'taks with so much ease.

Based on those calcs, Apophis' supership would be apparently so powerful that since it would not need to pour too much energy into the weapons buffer (considering the levels of firepower Trek has to deal with apparently), it would be able to transfer more energy towards shields, and turn into a super fortress that I guess even Borg cubes would be deeply afraid of.
Weapons already able to kick ha'tak shields in one blow would be way overkill for Federation ships. And, of course, considering the level of firepower this ship had, the shielding must be at least as good, and likely many times better (as shields are always able to withstand several hits).

In theory, that ship could come against many hundreds to several thousands of galaxy-class ships simultaneously and still beat the crap out of them.

l33telboi wrote:Well, at least now the BC-304's have rediculously fast hyperdrives. We're talking inter-galactic travel in a few hours tops. Can't remember what the speeds for Ha'taks were though. In enemies, we get a clear cut statement about how long it'll take a Ha'tak to travel from a distant galaxy to the milky way, but i can't remember the numbers involved.

I haven’t seen Enemies but maybe you’re referring to Exodus where the force of the supernova threw the motherships off course during hyperdrive, sending them over four million light years away, outside of our own galaxy. At maximum hyperdrive speed it would take 125 years to return home. If I’m not mistaken that works out to some 32,000c.

l33telboi wrote:The 10c thing i wouldn't put much stock in though. Because it was said in the episode that "obviously these ships can travel a lot faster then 10c" when Carter notices that a trip that should've lasted a year only took a few hours. Spacebattles and a civilization spanning an entire galaxy also becomes a bit strained if this was ever true. Most likely Teal'c was just kept in the dark about how fast Goa'uld ships were.

My mistake. I stand corrected. I haven’t seen that episode in while and Teal'c on the dark actually makes sense. Moreover, using the 32,000c figure ten light years would take almost three hours so it actually match.

l33telboi wrote:No solid figures for the SG side when it comes to either the Goa'uld or the Wraith.

The Wraith did have about 60 Hiveships in season 1 of Atlantis, with an unknown number of additional Cruisers. And if memory serves there were something like 300 Ha'taks at the battle for Dakara.

There's also an image on a screen depicting bugged Ha'taks in one episode, along comes a line something like "This is just a small part of the galaxy" and "We're loosing ships at a constant rate", i did the numbers on the loosing ships thing and came up to about 10 000 ships. But i pretty much dismissed that since it doesn't really mesh well with other things in gate-verse.

I don’t remember the number of Ha’taks at Dakara as given on the episode but I wasn’t paying attention to that detail when I first saw it either. I’ll try to watch it again. However all other examples have only a few dozens motherships at most so 10,000 ships indeed seem a bit of a stretch. Do you remember the actual name of the episode or what season it was on?

l33telboi wrote:The Tau'ri of course only have three ships, but those are so far wanked by now that it's just plain silly. We've got the Odyssey that is able to cloak itself (maybe even phase-cloak), able to erect time-dilation fields and even reverse time inside them, has both a ZPM and an Asgard power-core powering it, has beaming weapons capable of bringing down Ori Motherships and probably a slew of other nifty things, like "go-somewhere" beams. The Deaddy i suppose is pretty normal all things considered and the the Apollo of course has its MK IX nukes coupled with smaller stuff like puddle-jumpers and whatnot.

Maybe so, but again they are only three ships after all.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Hyperdrives

I'm completely clueless as to where that 32,000 c comes from.

In Gateworld's thread Ha'taks specs, I tried to compile a few values obtained since then.

- 10 c. Orignal known speed for a ha'tak, according to Teal'c. Trouble is that later on, we realize he may not know everything about those ships. He may have extrapolated the speed of a lighter vessel and assumed a ha'tal was at least capable of that.
- 3,652.425 c. New speed in the same episode as above, due to earlier arrival.
- 8,000.16 c. Normal ha'tak, from Exodus/Enemies, for the return trip. No replicator upgrade whatsoever, since it's irrelevant.

It comes out from Exodus. Four million light years. 125 years to return home. So about 32,000c. And now I’m curious as how did you get those figures of less than 10,000c.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Coincidentally, that 32,000 c is the low end FTL speed I obtained for Wraith hyperdrives.

I haven’t seen more than a handful of episodes of Stargate Atlantis, so could you elaborate on how do you get 32,000c as the low end for Wraith hyperdrives?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now, if a Prometheus, with a scoutship hyperdrive linked to a capital ship eractor, could go fast (at what speed again?), then there's a problem, because ha'taks should be able to go at least as fast as what the Prometheus was able to.

That’s indeed a problem. Another inconsistency to deal with. Any suggestions?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Numbering the ha'taks

There are roughly 30 vs 40 or more ha'taks, so a total not even surpassing 100.

During Reckoning, we learn that Anubis had been sending the fleet to fight for Dakara.

Then, in some episode later on, another character, either an Asgard, Baal or whoever, reveals that this fleet was actually a portion of the real fleet.

A year ago, at SG1archive.com (an old thread), I tried to estimate the number of ha'taks in total. It gave numbers reaching the many tens of thousands, and that was the very low end, because Jacob had actually explained that the destruction/conversion was actually exponentional, while I consider a linear expansion.

Most of Stargate actually had us think that there always a total of a couple of hundred ha'taks, maybe a thousand at best during a key period of active fighting between domains, but not more.

Another thread shows how unlikely even Sokar, able to strike 6 key Lords at the same time, wouldn't be able to bring more than 150 ha'taks at best.

I believe Apophis' loss of power within the goa'uld hierarchy had more to do with the fact that he was bitchslaped by primitives and lost two motherships against them than anything else. When he got directly defeated, his armies were without a Lord, and likely either absorbed by other System Lords, or destroyed by coordinated attacks.

So we all agree on a few hundreds Ha’tak motherships with a thousand or so at best?

AFT wrote:I don’t remember the number of Ha’taks at Dakara as given on the episode but I wasn’t paying attention to that detail when I first saw it either. I’ll try to watch it again. However all other examples have only a few dozens motherships at most so 10,000 ships indeed seem a bit of a stretch. Do you remember the actual name of the episode or what season it was on?

You can see the ships as dots on a computer-screen. Though you do see external views as well, but counting ships from those could be a tad difficult as there's quite a lot of action going on.

The episode is Reckoning Part 2. Part 1 is also a major episode when it comes to ship numbers.

l33telboi wrote:Maybe so, but again they are only three ships after all.

Well, time-dilation tech means that theoretically those three could become a thousand in exactly 0 seconds. :P

However the Ody didn't have that tech when i made this thread so i'm not quite sure if i want to include it in the debate. Especially if including it means that other ships will get the tech as well.

AFT wrote:So we all agree on a few hundreds Ha’tak motherships with a thousand or so at best?

I'd say at least 500, seeing as how Jacob had managed to bug over a hundred ships. But yes, a few hundred to a thousand would seem likely.

The 10 000+ thing, while it would be a valid claim, would still seem a wee bit high for what the rest of the series depict.

Perhaps we'll get a better view of things now that the movies come out and the writers have a bigger budget. IIRC they wanted more ships in reckoning for instance, but the budget didn't quite cut it.

l33telboi wrote:Well, time-dilation tech means that theoretically those three could become a thousand in exactly 0 seconds. :P

However the Ody didn't have that tech when i made this thread so i'm not quite sure if i want to include it in the debate. Especially if including it means that other ships will get the tech as well.

Well, unless they miraculous split one ship into a thousand perfect copies at some late episode during seasons 9-10 of Stargate SG-1 or Stargate Atlantis latest episodes I don’t see how that piece of technology is going to be of any relevance.

AFT wrote:Well, unless they miraculous split one ship into a thousand perfect copies at some late episode during seasons 9-10 of Stargate SG-1 or Stargate Atlantis latest episodes I don’t see how that piece of technology is going to be of any relevance.

They could possibly gather resources, then thrum up the time-dilation field and build the ships. Then when that is done, turn time in the time-dilation-field back, but exclude the new ships from the time-going backwards thing and voilá, you'd have a new fleet in 0 time, literally.

It's all theoretical of course.

AFT wrote:It comes out from Exodus. Four million light years. 125 years to return home. So about 32,000c.

Hm, I've checked Exodus. I missed a factor somewhere, I can't tell where, but I obtained 31998.186 c (I cut the extra bit).

And now I’m curious as how did you get those figures of less than 10,000c.

They said they were 1 year away from Earth at 10 c.

Then, the trip duration was shortened to 24 hours. So it gave me ~3652.425 c.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I haven’t seen more than a handful of episodes of Stargate Atlantis, so could you elaborate on how do you get 32,000c as the low end for Wraith hyperdrives?

Oh frak me. That's what happens when doing calcs so damn late.

When talking about the Wraith trip to Atlantis, McKay said that their last stop was 50 LY. There was a map in the background, so I could figure out the overall distance, which was slightly more than 125 LY. Weir said it would talke a little over a day. I took 24 hours.

It gave me slightly less than 45799 c.

This is a low end because it assumes a straight path and no stops. However there were 4 stops before Atlantis, and those can take a long time. For example, the one we saw was a culling (cattle harvest operation). All stops seemed to be located next to planets to be culled, and as such, it means that the FTL speed is ought to be higher than that, even if the Wraith are limited by short jumps. They can at least cross 50 LY without stopping.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That’s indeed a problem. Another inconsistency to deal with. Any suggestions?

I'd actually like to know from which episode those calcs have been made.

Before they grabbed an al'kesh hyperdrive, they were using one they got from somewhere, either the ship built by those nightwalkers, or else, and they had a naqahdria reactor during that time.
Back in Disclosure (6.17), Asgards installed asgard shields and weapons.

If the calcs postdate that, hum, the we'd have to say that the hyperdrive benefited from asgard improvements (or maybe Hebridans gave more than the ion engine receipe, but that would only work if the calcs postdate Space Race).

In the middle of season 8, the Asgars adde other upgrades, notably hyperdrives.

So knowing which episode those calcs were made from is important.

So we all agree on a few hundreds Ha’tak motherships with a thousand or so at best?

For a reasonable guess, yes, but with some serious flagships of doom.

The advantage in speed will give the Goa'uld the possibility to attack certain targets well before the UFP or their allies can muster enough ship a given zone.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Hm, I've checked Exodus. I missed a factor somewhere, I can't tell where, but I obtained 31998.186 c (I cut the extra bit).

You're doing it a tad complicated methinks. 4 000 000ly / 125y = 32000ly/y = 32000c