ST vs. SG Scenario

[Nonamer]

Speaking of ZPM, I'm totally mystified as to how an Earth spaceship built with near-future tech could ever handle such a thing. It's like jury-rigging a nuclear reactor to Roman trireme and expecting it to be used.

This is why I hate SG-tech. At least with ST and SW, inconsistencies can be explained away as mistakes of some sort. SG inconsistencies can never be explained other than pure magic.

[GStone]

Yeah, I wouldn't put Asgard tech on the level of Ancient tech. It's impressive, but Asgar tech is inferior to Ancient tech. How do I know this? Just because every single person is making such a big thing about the Ancient tech over any and all other tech, besides Anubus' Ancient tech and advanced Ori tech.

Have we ever seen Earth or Earth/Asgard combo tech use a ZPM at full power? The only one I can think of off hand when a ZPM is drained damn quickly is only on Atlantis. So, it might not be being used at full power, but it seems like a ZPM supposedly makes lower level tech work better than how it is built.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Speaking of ZPM, I'm totally mystified as to how an Earth spaceship built with near-future tech could ever handle such a thing. It's like jury-rigging a nuclear reactor to Roman trireme and expecting it to be used.

This is why I hate SG-tech. At least with ST and SW, inconsistencies can be explained away as mistakes of some sort. SG inconsistencies can never be explained other than pure magic.

I believe there's some kinda of Smart Valveâ„¢ system which can automatically detect the maximum output the power plug can withstand.

That said, it's likely that a large load of their circuitry uses naqahdah, and trinium for protection, which means large superconducting abilities.

I'm actually on a project to forward a couple of theories regarding the "insides " of a ZPM, in order to unify several aspects we've been given through the years.

That said, I'm firmly convinced that humans can't properly exploit the power of such devices.

Spoiler.

[spoiler]
The only time they've been able to drastically drain a ZPM with a terran ship was in Unending, and it took them more than 50 years to do so with a time dilation bubble going at a crazy ratio, like 50 years for a fraction of a second.
The deflection of a huge CME in Echoes wasn't even worth a mention.
[/spoiler]

It's like those figures derived from events related to Atlantis, which in the end are meant to provide ZPM power figures. They end in the low megatons per second.
It'd be foolish to ever believe that's the maximum power output of a ZPM.
Those things are supposed to be they key to the power requirements of certain systems that even naqahdah generators couldn't hangle.
Yet, we have naqahdah generators on ships which output many orders of magnitude more joules per second than what those calcs show.
Still, I've seen people, certain Warsies from where you know notably, play fools and claim that those figures corresponded to caps.

Now, on ships count.

I've been trying to come with a reliable figure regarding the ha'taks.

It would seem that Anubis' fleet, allied to Yu's, would be quite large, in Stargate standards.

In Reckoning, there initially were around 29 motherships led by Ba'al. Then a couple of more came before the replicators arrived, with an already conquered fleet of equal numbers. That was roughly 35~40 on both sides.

Jacob said they managed to tag at least 100 ha'taks, which was a portion of the total.

At this time, Ba'al was under Anubis' commands.

The fact that he didn't even bother betraying Anubis despite having a fleet of so many ships at hand even before gonig for Dakara shows that not only Anubis had a decent number of loyal men, but likely his own fleet to dwarf Ba'al task force.

IN New Order pt 2, we learn the following:

OSHU
Anubis was overconfident, and he still needed the bulk of his armada to keep the System Lords at bay. The fleet he used to attack Earth was small compared to that which Ba'al will command should he defeat the System Lords. He will rule the galaxy. No weapons will be powerful enough to stop him.

Not all SLs were allied to Anubis. We knew that Yu declined the offer, but obviously, he was not alone.

EXT—SPACE, NEAR THE MOON

[A fleet of ships of varying sizes emerges from Hyperspace and moves towards Earth.]

INT—OVAL OFFICE

[General Jumper is speaking on the red phone.]

JUMPER
Okay.
(to President)
Sir, thirty plus ships just appeared in orbit, taking station around the planet.

We see at least 9 ha'taks leaving hyperspace, plus Anubis' supership.

5 alkeshes were sent, with squadrons of death gliders, against the tel'tak digging through the ice with the ring beam.

I count the bombers because ealier on, when Anubis probbed Earth's defenses, 2 ha'taks exited hyperspace, with an alkesh.

Later on, when the Prometheus is heading for Anubis' ship, there are 21 ha'taks on screen.

So there were at least 33 ships, possibly more, plus the supership. 6 of them were alkeshes.

So 27 motherships. So this was a small fleet.

So his complete fleet was at least twice as big as this, but in fact more, otherwise the force he left behind couldn't have been the bulk of his whole fleet.

We have at least 54 ha'taks.

Rounded to 60 for his whole fleet. A conservative estimate, assuming that around 33 ships would be enough to keep other System Lords at bay.

All depends on the number of such System Lords and their respective forces.

We'll see more later.

[Mike DiCenso]

AFT wrote:
But since most Federation starships as well as the Intrepid class are meant for long range exploration, they more than probably are designed to be able to operate for an unknown number of years beyond the Federation borders on their own, after all the original Constitution class could operate for 5 years without any external support.

Actually, we almost never saw the E-1701 operate for more than a few months at most without external support (e.g. resupply and repair at a starbase). On a number of occasions we had the Enterprise operate well within Federation territory, or stoping over at a starbase for one reason or the other, or it was mentioned that the ship would stop at one. That it was mentioned that the Enterprise perhaps last indefinitely (or at least for a few centuries) only really occurs in two episodes; "By Any Other Name" [TOS2] and "The Mark of Giddeon" [TOS3], but the cavet in those episodes was that the ship's crew was reduced to a few or just two people. In other episodes, like "This Side of Paradise" [TOS1], it is stated that the Enterprise cannot be maintained much more than "several months" in orbit without a crew.

But I highly doubt that traveling at maximum warp for all those years was anywhere on the mission profile for starships designed for long range exploration, never mind the ships meant for short term operations. That would explain way Voyager was on good shape and the Equinox was on deep problems. So, in short, while Warp drive is impractical for long distances and clearly not an intergalactic drive, Federation starships can make use of their best speeds comfortably for years before forced to face the same problems that Voyager had. Meaning that ships of the Intrepid class for example, can use their cruise speed of warp 9.975 for that long. However, the newer Federation starships are way faster than previous models, so my previous comment of splitting fast and slow ships still stands.

Again, in episodes like Voyager's "Year of Hell, part I", the question is also one of navigation data about the area of space that is being travelled in. The more you know, the faster you can go. This is why it seems when an ST ship is operating in fairly well-charted space, they go a lot faster. The idea is especially borne out in TNG's "The Chase", where the course Professer Galen charts out for Picard is through fairly well-known space across tens of thousands of lightyears, and yet with a starship was expected to take "weeks" at most.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Averages for the UFP and their allies.
You obviously know a lot more about Trek and know things by name, and I don't have time to read all the pages, for all seasons, episode by episode.
I trust you to come with honest reliable figures, not far from averages.

Again, the firepower figures, as with the warp speeds, are all over the place, too. If you look again at Robert Anderson and Graham Kennedy's articles, I think you'll see reasonable shield and weapons numbers. Ignore Wong's pages on this for the most part as he loves throwing in references to the non-canon TNG Technical Manual, which places phasers at a mere 1.02 GWs for the largest of the E-D's phaser arrays. Canonically, we have several statements that are vastly higher than TNG TM by a comfortable margin:

* In TNG's "Who Watches the Watchers", it is stated that a fusion powerplant of 4.2 GW is enough to power a "small phaser bank", while in the later TNG episode "A Matter of Time" time we are given a clear statement that the second largest array on the E-D must not exceed a varience of .06 TW (60 GW), which in turn is described as the most critical of margins, this implying strongly that the phaser is putting out vastly greater power outputs.

* ST:ENT's "Silent Enemy" states that of the phaser cannons the relatively primitive NX class of the 2150's has an output of 500 GJ, or one terajoule per the main forward battery, and a factor 10 increase is possible by channeling power in directly from the impulse engines via a controlled overload.

* VOY's "Rise" has a statement from Chakotay that a modestly large, nickel-iron asteroid should be vaporized by a single photon torpedo. Depending on the scalings of the asteroid in question from the episode, you can derive firepower of anywhere from modest kilotons to well over 100 megatons.

* The large asteroid in TNG's "The Pegasus" could be destroyed using "most of" the E-D's 250 photon torpedoes. Big controversy here in the scalings, but low megaton range firepower to gigatons is possible, depending on your starting assumptions.

* Then there is the controverial "The Die is Cast" planetary bombardment by a mere 20 ships, along with the statements that said fleet can strip a planet down to the core in about 6 hours time for yeilds in the modest gigaton region, and low teraton range conservatively. This is an extreme upper limit and unsual demonstration of ST firepower to say the least.

* TNG's "Masks" has the E-D melting a modest sized comet on ten percent of the second largest phaser array's power, for a yeild of around the low gigaton range.

So your milage will vary. I think it's safe to say that modest gigaton firepower is possible as a maximum, with a mid-range of around the tens of to hundreds of megatons for ST ships.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Oh yeah, forgot to add in the TNG episode "Skin of Evil", which has the E-D firing a single photon torpedo down onto a planet to destroy the wreakage of a shuttle to prevent the possibility of a malevolent lifeform there from using it. The explosion as depicted is hundreds of kilometers wide, as scaled to the planet, and estimates have shown the explosion's yeild would be around 500 megatons.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

A couple of observations and estimations...

Some of Trek's weapons

From the site DITL:

UFP Photon torpedoes.
Apparently come with antimatter and matter pellets maintained inside magnetic fields. Load up to 1.5 kg of antimatter maximum, for a yield of 64.44 megatons max. Lower yeidls possible and noticed.
ROF: From 1 round /2s to 12 rounds /5s.
Quantum torpedoes seem fairly rare on most ships.

Number of such warheads per ship: It is important to know how long ships can sustain that level of firepower through missiles before the silos get depleted.

Apparently, the Entreprise D has 250 photon torpedoes in stock. Say one torpedoe per second, over more than 4 minutes, the whole stock could be expanded. Total yield would be 250 times the maximum yield of a photon torpedoe, ergo 16,110 MT.

This site lists the Defiant class as such:

Weapons:

49 x Class I rapid fire phaser pulse cannon.
110 x Type X phaser bank10, total output 70,000 TeraWatts.
39 x Pulse fire quantum torpedo tube.
1 x Probe/photon launcher9 equivalent to standard photon torpedo tube with 120 rounds.

Defenses:

Auto modulated shield system, total capacity 2,376,000 TeraJoules. (2.376 e18 J)
Heavy Duranium/Tritanium11 Double hull plus 20 cm Ablative armour.
High level Structural Integrity Field.

This ship, as far as I can remember, are the UFP's take on what a warship should be, but there doesn't seem to be lots of them. As thus, the best the UFP can bring to the table.

It would be necessary to know what types of ships the Trek side actually uses. Otherwise, we'll have no choice but considering standard classes representing the bulk of their numbers.
As a comparison, if the 200 MT figure is reliable, a ha'tak would be able to deliver 8.3736 e17 J per bolt.





Ha'tak weaponry and shielding


Shielding

From my estimation of a ha'tak's size (ha'tak mkI that is), we got a shield capacity of 9,378,527.48 GW (6.535 GW/m²).

2.24 MT/s, thus 80.64 GT over 10 hours.

All this being lower than the low end, since shield area is divided by 2, while actually more than half the shield is actually facing the sun, obviously due to the size of the star in comparison to the size of the ship and her position.
Plus the blue giant's specs are the lowest ones, and my size estimation (width = 675.88 m), I think, is inferior to certain sizes displayed here and there that that put ha'taks more than 700 meters wide.

On the other hand, I have no proof that the Trek numbers I cited above are low ends whatsoever.

A medium end would put a shield capacity of 92 GW/m² (which applies to the hull as well).

1.14 TT (4.766 e21 J).


Rate of fire

ROF can be as low as 1 bolt per second to bursts of 5 to 6 bolts per second (basically bringing all main cannons of a single side to bare within one second).
Such bursts occur every half of a second to every complete second.
Beach Head shows a continuous ROF of 4 bolts per second.


Firepower

200 MT would be ought to be a low end, if we were to look at Reckoning's first "battle".

Teal'c had a few ha'taks remain in orbit between Ba'al's fleet and the temple. His ships didn't retaliate. They just sat there. Most power was probably diverted to shields.

A couple of the episode's seconds later, almost precisely 40 of them, Teal'c's ha'tak has its shields down to 50%.

The element of importance here is that Ba'al didn't really plan to destroy the Free Jaffa so quick.

Only four~five ships seemed to fire at all, with many bolts missing, at cumulative ROF of 10 bolts over 6 seconds.
On the 10 bolts fired at the mini fleet, 7 of them were lost (not hitting anything).
That's a 30% accuracy.

So let's see. Let's make an example out of that.
We'll consider a siege that lasted over one hour, and see what would have happened at that rate.

Obviously, the siege didn't last that long (40 seconds passed on screen between the fleet reaching attack position and Teal'c's shield report), but we'll at least see if the figures match up to boot, with such an absurd siege duration.

So with the numbers above, that would be a total of 600 bolts, and 180 bolts hitting any target.

There's a blooper here. Teal'c's order was to leave only two ha'taks in visual range of Ba'al's fleet, with the rest of the ships hiding behind the planet.
The schematic on screen displayed two ha'taks. But we see three ha'taks on screen.

For all purposes, we'll settle on the supposedly correct figure of two ha'taks sitting there.

That's 90 bolts hitting a ha'tak over one hour.

With bolts rated at 200 MT each, it's a total of 18 GT of energy hitting the shields.

That's not even 25% of the low end shield (80.64 GT), and that's over one hour of siege.

50% of the shielding very low end is 40.32 GT.

If 3 bolts will hit within 6 seconds, that's 20 succesful hits within 40 seconds, spread over two ha'taks. Or, 10 hits against one ha'tak.

Thus a firepower of 4.32 GT per bolt.

With no visible will to get things done as quickly as possible. Thus even the possibility that the firepower displayed there is not even reaching its peak.
Indeed, the intensity of the siege has nothing to do with the intensity of a real battle such as the one that occured when the replicators attacked.




More details on Gate's forces

It seems that each faction is taken from a key moment in history. While Anubis' forces represent his power after Full Circle, the OP seems to suggest that the Tau'ri forces are at a point slightly preceding Unending.

Anubis' ships can detect cloaked ships.

Earth has three ships.

The Daedalus. Asgard shields, rail guns barely worth the notice against shielded capital ships, unless a very low kiloton is of relevance once each gun has fired like 10,000 rounds.
depleting all the railgun of .
The Odyssey. Same as the Daedalus, but with a ZPM onboard. Apparently has a cloaking/phasing device installed onboard.
The Apollo. Same as the Daedalus, but with with at least one Horizon platform.

On of these ships even has a couple of puddle jumpers I think, but can't remember which one. Could be the Daedalus.

Globally, according to dialogue, Earth has a couple of gatebusters in stock.

As for rail guns, still, here's how far they could go:

The railguns used at Atlantis, slightly smaller and thiner than the ones mounted on a 304, with limited ammo and above all extremely limited power supply, could already deliver an impact velocity of mach-five at fifty miles, with a magazine of 10,000 rounds.

Say they fired pellets of 0.1 kg each. With a pellet of 0.1 kg, that's already 723,733.025625 joules per projectile, in atmosphere, with an impact at fifty miles away from the target. Which means that the initial velocity will be in large excess of that.

With the whole magazine expended, that's 7,237,330,256.25 joules, more than a ton of TNT.

Now let's consider the main railguns located onboard a BC-304. The weapons themselves are already bigger, are ought to benefit from a largely superior magazine payload, and have capital level naqahdah generators to back them up.

Looking at the caliber of the cannons, they could easily shoot pellets of several kilograms each.

An increase of one order of magnitude in exit velocity from the 3-troopers sized railgun (thus a velocity of mach 5 x 10), with a pellet of 2 kg, will deliver this level of energy:

289,493,210.25 J.

After 10,000 rouns fired, that would be a total of 691.44 tons of TNT.

With a few railguns bearing, you can theoretically provide a low kiloton yield.

That's assuming that with all the recoil dampening afforded by a larger structure, with more trinium and naqahdah to withstand the heat of the gun, with the fact that moreheat will be radiated in space, and the strong possibility that a bigger caliber could allow a higher escape velocity, for heavier rounds, eventually each railgun could end delivering more than 1KT of KE even before firing ten thousands rounds.





Combat situation examples

At the top of this post, I estimated that after more than 4 miutes of constant bombardment, at a rate of one torpedoe per second, the Enterprise D could deliver 16.11 GT of total energy.
Assuming, of course, that all the energy of such devices is extremely focused.
Is it?

Let's again look at DTIL's page on the Galaxy class (hey, I've just learned today the class of the E-D, I couldn't even know which Entreprise this "D" corresponded to).

Armament:
1217 x Type X phaser arrays, total output 50,000 TeraWatts
214 x Type 3 burst fire photon torpedo tube3 with 250 rounds

Defence Systems:
High capacity shield system, total capacity 2,700,000 TeraJoules
Standard Duranium/Tritanium Double hull plus 9 cm High density armour.
Standard level Structural Integrity Field

Roughly 644.884 MT of shielding.

1 vs 1, this will be a slaughter. A ha'tak wouldn't even need to fight with guns at full power, and be able to divert power to engines and shielding.

Can Trek ships detect objects moving through subspace?

If no, the Gateverse would have the surprise advantage on any attack, while all forces on the Gate side have FTL sensors that can detect anything both in real space and subspace.

Typically, if the Gaters planned an attack of a key target, say a planet, they'd just need to send a small task force.

Trek ships wouldn't have time to react.
The SG forces wouldn't even have to bother engaging all of a fleet defending said planet.
Ships would divert most power towards engines and shields, put the bolts on high speed and KE, fire at the target in question, the split second they'd come out of hyperspace, aiming at a sitting duck which for all purposes would not be shielded (has the UFP's base on Earth even be shielded?) and leave a short minutes later, after hitting a wide area with multi 3 digit megaton hits at a rate of 4 bolts per second (Beach Head style).

Dropping a Horizon on a target of choice would be even funnier.





A look at two of Gate's planets

Earth and Dakara would be particularily interesting targets. One has the element of surprise with a defense system that is simply overkill. Seeing that two drones fired and powered by a puddle jumper are enough to destroy a ha'tak, the thousands of drones stored inside the Antartica outpost, powered by a full ZPM, would easily defeat a fleet of several thousands Trek ships.

Add several other of Gate's ships defending the planet for good measure, and you're there. Place Anubis' ship, which instashoots other vessels with ease, and Gate's Earth would be a target that Trek would probably never dare to engage, unless throwing the bulk of their complete fleet.

Dakara, and its necessary planetary shield, would be another piece of fun. Never Netu's destruction or Apophis' teraton level crash on the planet ever changed anything to it.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Oragahn wrote:


A couple of observations and estimations...

Some of Trek's weapons

From the site DITL:

UFP Photon torpedoes.
Apparently come with antimatter and matter pellets maintained inside magnetic fields. Load up to 1.5 kg of antimatter maximum, for a yield of 64.44 megatons max. Lower yeidls possible and noticed.
ROF: From 1 round /2s to 12 rounds /5s.
Quantum torpedoes seem fairly rare on most ships.

Number of such warheads per ship: It is important to know how long ships can sustain that level of firepower through missiles before the silos get depleted.

Apparently, the Entreprise D has 250 photon torpedoes in stock. Say one torpedoe per second, over more than 4 minutes, the whole stock could be expanded. Total yield would be 250 times the maximum yield of a photon torpedoe, ergo 16,110 MT.

This site lists the Defiant class as such:

Weapons:

49 x Class I rapid fire phaser pulse cannon.
110 x Type X phaser bank10, total output 70,000 TeraWatts.
39 x Pulse fire quantum torpedo tube.
1 x Probe/photon launcher9 equivalent to standard photon torpedo tube with 120 rounds.

Defenses:

Auto modulated shield system, total capacity 2,376,000 TeraJoules. (2.376 e18 J)
Heavy Duranium/Tritanium11 Double hull plus 20 cm Ablative armour.
High level Structural Integrity Field.

This ship, as far as I can remember, are the UFP's take on what a warship should be, but there doesn't seem to be lots of them. As thus, the best the UFP can bring to the table.

It would be necessary to know what types of ships the Trek side actually uses. Otherwise, we'll have no choice but considering standard classes representing the bulk of their numbers.
As a comparison, if the 200 MT figure is reliable, a ha'tak would be able to deliver 8.3736 e17 J per bolt.

Aheh. Most of the information you stated there is non-canon speculation on Graham's part, and is sprinkled with additional information from the non-canon TNG TM, most notably the 1.5 kg of AM for the photon torpedo warhead. I think you need to check the site navigation again, as Graham differentiates the canon from episodes and movies in yellow colored text; backstage in green; and speculation in white.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

I don't know, seems like your using some of the lowest possible calcs for Trek(well not THE lowest, I think the lowest is a kiloton :) ) while going for more midlevel to high calcs for Stargate. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my take on the matter.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Aheh. Most of the information you stated there is non-canon speculation on Graham's part, and is sprinkled with additional information from the non-canon TNG TM, most notably the 1.5 kg of AM for the photon torpedo warhead. I think you need to check the site navigation again, as Graham differentiates the canon from episodes and movies in yellow colored text; backstage in green; and speculation in white.
-Mike

Possibly, but I feel like I'm the only one "debating" here.
I'll do my Stargate part, and leave the Trek stuff to anyone who feels like picking up the knife, if anyone still has some kind of interest in this thread.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#BeamWeap

Final Tally: Terawatt-range, minimum
(And given 100-megaton torpedoes, and the general gist from battle scenes that photon torpedos are 2-5 times more powerful than phasers, 1-10 megaton phasers (~ 4,000 - 40,000 TJ) wouldn't be too difficult to argue for at all. That could be driven up as high as 20-50 megatons (~83 - 209 PJ (1000xTJ)) to keep with the "gist" ratio.)

Let's accept torpedoe yields of 150 MT. 30 to 75 MT for phasers.
Yet JMS' site has a page with many claims about gigaton level of phaser firepower. Assuming that the matter is actually heated up in the relevant cases.

* In TNG's "Who Watches the Watchers", it is stated that a fusion powerplant of 4.2 GW is enough to power a "small phaser bank", while in the later TNG episode "A Matter of Time" time we are given a clear statement that the second largest array on the E-D must not exceed a varience of .06 TW (60 GW), which in turn is described as the most critical of margins, this implying strongly that the phaser is putting out vastly greater power outputs.

Like?

* The large asteroid in TNG's "The Pegasus" could be destroyed using "most of" the E-D's 250 photon torpedoes. Big controversy here in the scalings, but low megaton range firepower to gigatons is possible, depending on your starting assumptions.

Any info there? Because 250 torps to get rid of an asteroid is obviously a bad point.

Apparently, that NCC-1701 only has 96 torps.

* Then there is the controverial "The Die is Cast" planetary bombardment by a mere 20 ships, along with the statements that said fleet can strip a planet down to the core in about 6 hours time for yeilds in the modest gigaton region, and low teraton range conservatively. This is an extreme upper limit and unsual demonstration of ST firepower to say the least.

With funky visuals and extremely exotic theories... one of the very few Trek issues I've been looking closely. Trek at this time never had such a level of firepower.
Stripping a planet down to the core is over the top. You remove the crust and the mantle, and eventually even a part of the core. In 6 hours and 20 ships.
That's almost destroying the entire planet, bar the core. Even ships with teratons of firepower could not achieve that.

Many people have spent time on this problem, and it does not seem anyone has found a solution. I remember vivftp's theories at SB.com, and other people disagreeing with them. That's pretty much all they have.

* TNG's "Masks" has the E-D melting a modest sized comet on ten percent of the second largest phaser array's power, for a yeild of around the low gigaton range.

How long did it take exactly?

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

I33telboi:
Other than the 3v3 thing, why aren't the Cardassians involved? They are about on par with the other three Trek races. As for putting them at opposite sides of the Milkyway, I'll get back to you after they have their first fleet engagement in 20 or 30 years. I'd put them within a few thousand light years of each other, just to speed up the whole process so the Odyssey isn't the only offensive option on either side.

Mr. Oragahn:
I'm not very knowledgeable about the Star Gate (I've seen a smattering of 30 episodes or so). So it would be presumptuous for me to debate you on a matter that pertains to SG. What I will do is clarify any questions you have about Trek, and make corrections.

It is actually NCC-1701-A that has 96 torpedos as per display panel in ST6:TUC.

You are correct that TDiC does not fit in with the rest of Trek firepower. However the funky visuals you refer to are +1000 km wide shock waves moving at ~500 km/s.

The incident in "Masks" took about 10 seconds. http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?p=562#562

Mike DiCenso already corrected the <64 MT figure, and I'm too tired to do this now anyways.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mr. Oragahn:
I'm not very knowledgeable about the Star Gate (I've seen a smattering of 30 episodes or so). So it would be presumptuous for me to debate you on a matter that pertains to SG. What I will do is clarify any questions you have about Trek, and make corrections.

It is actually NCC-1701-A that has 96 torpedos as per display panel in ST6:TUC.

ST6. I'm not aware of the timeline. Is it around TNG?

Was it ever specified which era Trek ships came from?

You are correct that TDiC does not fit in with the rest of Trek firepower. However the funky visuals you refer to are +1000 km wide shock waves moving at ~500 km/s.

Something particularily curious. Moving that much matter, fluid or not, without the necessary blast and massive ejecta is dubious. An undeground explosion wouldn't even explain that, it would need to be proved that the weapons drilled through anything, and then conveniently set off "too deep".

The incident in "Masks" took about 10 seconds. http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... ?p=562#562

Thanks. However, I checked the thread and it says 11 seconds.

Plus there's something fishy with those calcs. They literally suggest firepower in the gigaton range for phasers, while, I cite Mike:

Finally, another point; the firepower of the second-largest of the E-D's arrays does not necessarily scale linearly, thus the largest E-D phaser array could be orders of magnitude greater for all we know. Also, phasers are canonically stated to be much weaker than a full yeild, full spread barrage of torpedeos ("Q Who?" [TNG2], "Nth Degree" [TNG5]).

Standard torpedoes from that same era don't seem to ever reach beyond hundreds of megatons at best, for all I've seen about TNG's figures. It's then extremely curious how the weaker phasers could actually prove much more powerful than torpedoes, despite a canon statement.
Either it has to do with the real duration it took for the Enterprise to vaporize that part of the asteroid. Do the visuals even show something that would suggest such a large volume of ice being vaporized per second?



We barely see the curvature of the asteroid. Though I don't know if it was flattened or not, since apparently the beam on wide setting, and since there doesn't seem to be that much matter being vaporized, even if that corresponded to 10% of a second, I wonder how within 10 or 11 seconds, you could end with a vaporization of 4.189 e12 kg of comet material, that is, the whole comet if I properly understood what happened in that episode.
Mind you, I'm working from the only bits I have, and without pictures.

[GStone]

ST6. I'm not aware of the timeline. Is it around TNG?

It's a TOS crew movie with the bird of prey that can fire when cloaked.

[l33telboi]

I33telboi:
Other than the 3v3 thing, why aren't the Cardassians involved?

Like i said once already, i wanted it to be a 3v3 simply because that would give an equal number of factions on both sides. Besides, i wanted to have the team that made op the 'good guys' from the Dominion War on one side.

There's no reason more extravagant then that for me picking the races involved. I wanted a somewhat balanced scenario and i thought this would prove to be a good starting point.

As for putting them at opposite sides of the Milkyway, I'll get back to you after they have their first fleet engagement in 20 or 30 years.

Ah, but that's why there are Stargates out there. The trek side can easily use them to great effect. I realize of course that there might be some problems for the Trek side initially in regards to FTL ship-travel, but with time and a little finesse, i'm sure they could get their hands on a working hyperdrive and so the speed discrepancy can be somewhat nerfed.

And IIRC the fanmade galactic maps correctly, then the combined territories of the Trek alliance do cover quite a lot of space, so the 'outer edges' of both alliances aren't that far away.

I'd put them within a few thousand light years of each other, just to speed up the whole process so the Odyssey isn't the only offensive option on either side.

The Odyssey isn't the only thing on the SG-side that can travel from one end of the galaxy to another. Both the Wraith and the Goa'uld are galaxy-spanning civilizations, as such, one would think they have the capabilities to regulate such a vast area.

[l33telboi]

while going for more midlevel to high calcs for Stargate. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my take on the matter.

Almost every calc there is out there for Stargate puts in pretty high up in the yields department. Ha'taks sitting in the corona of a blue giant for 10 hours, surviving uncontrolled re-entry with only minimal damage etc. It's something that naturally happens, because the producers happened to mention gigaton plus weapons that are simple to produce already in the beginning of the second season. Since then every enemy has been bigger and better then the last, often outperforming the old one in complete curbstomp fashion. Anubis was able to bring down a Beliskner that previously was nigh-undefeatable, the Replicators in turn pop Anubis' ships with only a few shots a-piece and now the Ori that pretty much curbstomp everything we've seen before, except the newest ship to hit the market (the Odyssey) that is able to completly curbstomp Ori ships. You can probably see where the power-creep is coming from?

No, the problem is not the calcs. The problem is that there have been a few very cringworthy moments, like when we see a Ha'tak fire from orbit on the ground below, producing only carbomb sized explosions. And like always, the rabid anti-wankers have been quick to latch onto those instances while dismissing everything else. If you however look at the SGverse as a whole, you'll quickly see that it's quite rediculous to assume the lower showings are fact, because you'll quickly end up with a very illogical verse.

For instance, why would a civilization that has triple digit gigaton nukes yet to win a single fair ship-to-ship engagement? Why would the weapons on a Ha'tak be as powerful as the staff-weapon Teal'c carried around in a few eps? We even know that those weapons scale with size. Why would a civilization that can create the tiniest of devices (not more then a few centimeters in diameter) that has a yield of somewhere around a kiloton be relying on energy weapons, when we know that they have larger versions of those bombs on even the most inconsequentional Ha'taks?