Roman Empire vs Mordor

[Picard]

By act of Illuvatar, Roman Empire is transported into Middle Earth, which is extended westwards to accomodate it.

Scenario 1: Roman Empire from 100 AD (Principate, lorica segmentata, scutum and all that).

Scenario 2: Roman Empire from 300 AD (Dominate).

[Admiral Breetai]

what age is this taking place?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The way the mordor troops just charged in is tailor made to get a ass raping from roman tactics.

Any Olog-hai will go down to a Ballista bolt to the chest.

[Admiral Breetai]

The way the mordor troops just charged in is tailor made to get a ass raping from roman tactics.

I'm pretty sure Sauron's men and their aule savvy backed metallurgy and the black numenorians and the nazgul will prevent that

Any Olog-hai will go down to a Ballista bolt to the chest.

ehhhh

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I'm pretty sure Sauron's men and their aule savvy backed metallurgy and the black numenorians and the nazgul will prevent that

i only really saw the movies so i have no idea what any of that is dude.

[Picard]

what age is this taking place?

Make it either early Second or late Third age.

[Admiral Breetai]

i only really saw the movies so i have no idea what any of that is dude.

ah book lord of the rings is a bit more powerful Picard made a thread where I posted some of their capabilities..would you like a link?

basically The Witchking fear fucked an entire battle field every one stopped fighting when he showed up.. he made people go insane with fear and kill themselves or have heart attacks

and allot of those guys would be super human by modern standards..he also had some fallen Numenorians (the same people Aragorn boromir and Faramir are descendent from) who would be pretty powerful in their own right.

Make it either early Second or late Third age.

early second age : a fleet of Numenorian iron clads sail up the Mediterranean coast and fire off hypersonic arrows and canon fire all over the major imperial ports...Rome surrenders and then become the greatest vassal state Numenor ever has..and when it falls apart a good portion of the faithful likely immigrate to Rome

Third Age Gondor gains a very powerful ally but one the enemy could subvert if not protected

Elrond verses Cicero in a debate would be pretty epic

[Picard]

early second age : a fleet of Numenorian iron clads sail up the Mediterranean coast and fire off hypersonic arrows and canon fire all over the major imperial ports...Rome surrenders and then become the greatest vassal state Numenor ever has..and when it falls apart a good portion of the faithful likely immigrate to Rome

Would Numenor even get involved in this? It would be logical for them to sit back, see who wins and then kick the winner.

Third Age Gondor gains a very powerful ally but one the enemy could subvert if not protected

Maybe by persuading Diocletian to allow Christianity? As for Augustus' time, Romans were fairly liberal around religions they did not percieve as threat to state, so it might be possible to make most of them accept Gondorian religion,

Elrond verses Cicero in a debate would be pretty epic

Agreed.

[Admiral Breetai]

Numenor would get involved during the later part of the second age when they became very aggressive and imperialistic

early second age Numenor wouldn't do anything until they started invading lands ruled by lesser men..then you might see military action

Christianity may not be very important when you consider you can easily look at the pagan religion Jupiter= Eru and then scale the Valar down

[Picard]

But last time I checked, Numenoreans always worshipped single God, and didn't start butchering anything until influenced by Sauron.

BTW, I also forgot that I said "early" Second Age. That is, when Mordor becomes credible threat, but Numenoreans are still fiddling fingers and acting like hippies.

As for Valar, they are quite empathically NOT Gods. When you really see them in depth, they are most like Archangels in Christian religion, ones among spirits created by God, meant to guide and guard His creation (humans, in LotR also Elves and God's "adoptive children", dwarves), althought Valar also seem to have connection to Norse gods in regards to their roles (Tulkas is probably influenced by Tyr, Norse god of war). What must be kept in mind is that Tolkien was writing history of our world, forgotten history meant to fit as much as possible with current state of things, and not just some fantasy story, and he probably wanted to explain Western religions too and make them fit his story.

[Admiral Breetai]

But last time I checked, Numenoreans always worshipped single God, and didn't start butchering anything until influenced by Sauron.

Eru is the chief god they worship him it also helps they spoke to Manwe who said along with his emissaries numerous times they were not to be worshipped but men all men not of Numenor or affiliated with them worshipped the valar as gods mistakenly

]BTW, I also forgot that I said "early" Second Age. That is, when Mordor becomes credible threat, but Numenoreans are still fiddling fingers and acting like hippies.

when Mordor became a threat they were kinda on their way to becoming an imperialistic horde..IIRC they conquered some coastal regions and depopulated a piece of fangorn

As for Valar, they are quite empathically NOT Gods. When you really see them in depth, they are most like Archangels in Christian religion, ones among spirits created by God, meant to guide and guard His creation (humans, in LotR also Elves and God's "adoptive children", dwarves), althought Valar also seem to have connection to Norse gods in regards to their roles (Tulkas is probably influenced by Tyr, Norse god of war). What must be kept in mind is that Tolkien was writing history of our world, forgotten history meant to fit as much as possible with current state of things, and not just some fantasy story, and he probably wanted to explain Western religions too and make them fit his story.

I know tolkien did his best to portray them as arch angels I'm just saying in terms of it all they come off more like gods and get mistaken as such allot both by the fandom and tolkiens own characters

[Picard]

Code: Select all

Eru is the chief god they worship him it also helps they spoke to Manwe who said along with his emissaries numerous times they were not to be worshipped but men all men not of Numenor or affiliated with them worshipped the valar as gods mistakenly 

You're getting it wrong. Eru isn't "shief god", he is the God, like Christian God. Valar are Archangels, and Maiar are Angels of lower order. Now, people in Middle-earth often did see Valar as gods, but then again, they saw Numenoreans as gods also... yer you wouldn't say that Numenoreans were gods, wouldn't you?

when Mordor became a threat they were kinda on their way to becoming an imperialistic horde..IIRC they conquered some coastal regions and depopulated a piece of fangorn

If I remember there is exact year-by-year timeline in LotR Appendixes, but I doubt I'll have time to look it up.

I know tolkien did his best to portray them as arch angels I'm just saying in terms of it all they come off more like gods and get mistaken as such allot both by the fandom and tolkiens own characters

Tolkien's characters mostly did not see them as gods. Only some people in ME did, but as I said, some people saw Numenoreans as gods too. Now, Valar "kings" came of similar to gods of Norse mythology, but, in-universe, they are not gods.

As for fandom, 90 % (okay, maybe bit less) of people don't use whatever of brain they have, and LotR fandom isn't an exception.

[KSW]

By act of Illuvatar, Roman Empire is transported into Middle Earth, which is extended westwards to accomodate it.

Scenario 1: Roman Empire from 100 AD (Principate, lorica segmentata, scutum and all that).

Scenario 2: Roman Empire from 300 AD (Dominate).

Rome destroys, no contest. The population of Rome in these eraa was over 4 million Romans, while Mordor's forces were at most a scant 200,000 Easterners and Africans, some useless Orcs and a few trolls; likewise, 8 of the Nazgul were useless in daylight to command armies.

Also, unlike the men of Arda, Roman soldiers were Christian stoics who had no real fear of death, so the Nazgul would have little power over them; as Tolkien stated in Letters, the Nazgul have no great power against the fearless, and their power is almost entirely in the unreasoning fear they inspire, like ghosts, which is increased greatly in darkness.
And worst of all, the Nazgul fear fire-- a craft with which Romans have great skill.
And Rome's skill in physics, war and medicine was at least as good as Gondor's.

Sauron would be no match for Constantine or the later Popes, given their armies.
Mordor was located in modern Bulgaria, which was just a minor district and tributary for the Holy Roman empire.

[KSW]

Code: Select all

Eru is the chief god they worship him it also helps they spoke to Manwe who said along with his emissaries numerous times they were not to be worshipped but men all men not of Numenor or affiliated with them worshipped the valar as gods mistakenly 

You're getting it wrong. Eru isn't "shief god", he is the God, like Christian God. Valar are Archangels, and Maiar are Angels of lower order.

It depends on definitions; Manwe was the "governor" of Arda or Earth, and so he could be called a "lesser god" in this context, along with the other Valar, since Eru intervened in the affairs of Arda only when called upon directly, and the Valar have direct authority over the Maiar, and among the Valar themselves. They also created and shaped the Earth, which Eru made as only "void and without form." The only things Eru made were actual living people with living spirits of their own, i.e. he held the power of "The Flame Imperishable," while the Ainur created the stars, plants, air, water, soil, weather etc.; Eru simply gave them basic substance of matter, energy, time and space.
So the Ainur are gods, since they create and control things on their own, i.e. they make their own "Music" via the Aulindalinde, vis. the universe.

In contrast, the Judeochristian "God," i.e. Jehova, is the ONLY god, and only He created the Heaven and the Earth, and everything on it; angels created NOTHING, and control nothing except as God expressly instructs.
The angels are only his messengers, and act ONLY on his command, and answer ONLY to God Himself; there is no hierarchy among them, tough some are more powerful than others. Indeed, Lucifer fell when he assumed hierarchy over other the angels who followed him.

In contrast, Sauron had very little power, and his main strength was craft and ruthless political deception-- skills with which Rome was not only adapt, but master among men; it's no accident that Machiavelli was Italian.
And without his Ring, Sauron had no actual power to influence anyone's will.

[Picard]

Tolkien tried to explain as much mythology as he could, but one true God was always his intention. It is explicitly stated somewhere that some people do see Valar as gods.