Stargate vs Dune

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Stargate vs Dune

Post by User1555 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:59 am

The Scenario:
A force of Sardukar have captured a Stargate on a world belonging to a Goa'uld system lord and have placed a shield over it, denying its use by aforementioned Goa'uld. Without it, the Goa'uld cannot get reinforcements or tribute from off-world territories, as the lord does not own a Ha'tak. Neither the Sardaukar or the Goa'uld will have access to reinforcements.

The Objective of the Goa'uld lord is to capture the stargate, eliminating as many Sardaukar as needed in the process. The Sardaukar must keep the Goa'uld from aquiring control of the gate, lest he use it to escape or summon reinforcements, and must capture the goa'uld alive.

The Battle takes place in a 60 km long river valley with light forestation. The Jaffa and Sardaukar start on opposite ends, with the Stargate being on the Sardaukar end.

The forces of the Goa'uld consist of 1000 Jaffa and 200 Serpent Guard armed with staff weapons and Zat'nik'tels as backup weapons, and 10 tripod mounted staff cannons. In addition, they get a Goa'uld with a hand device and healing device, and his first prime. Aside from his superior training and serpent guard armor, the First Prime has no special equipment to set him apart from the rest of the Jaffa. 12 deathgliders, two unarmed Tel'taks for transport, and a Al'Kesh supplement this force.

Against them are 500 Sardaukar, three quarters armed with stunners and one quarter armed with lasguns. All Sardaukar are also equipped with Kindjals and shields, but the shields have a maximum life of two hours. (although they can be turned off and turned on again later to conserve power) The Sardaukar get two wheeled groundcars equipped with a single lasgun each, and 8 ornithopters, equipped with a lasgun and two dumbfire rockets each (for the sake of simplicity and clarity, lets say each rocket carries a payload equivalent to a AIM-9 Sidewinder) All groundcars and ornithopters are equipped with shields, but carry the same 'battery life' as the infantry models. Ornithopters have a pilot and copilot not included in the 500 figure, and can carry up to 6 additional passengers each. The Sardaukar are led by a Bashar, who aside from having superior training to the soldiers under his command, has no special equipment.

Dune Technology:
Lasguns: These fire thin, intense laser beams, although they can be adjusted to project a large cone instead. If the beam hits a duneverse shield, it causes a massive explosion. The weapons utilize power packs that must be replaced as they are depleted. In the way of firepower, they are roughly equivalent to a Goa'Uld Za'Tarc ring weapon, but with a wide beam mode and an allergy to shields.

Kindjal: Large, slightly curved, double-edged knife used for close quarters combat.

Stunners: Guns that hurl poison tipped darts at speeds slow enough for them to pierce shields (depending on the settings of the shield and the speed in which the target and gunner are moving, it can also be deflected by shields)

Ornithopter: Flying machines that resemble a cross between a airplane and a bird. They use engines as well as the motion of their wings to fly, which can even extend to the vacuum of space, although they are limited in their range, so they are unlikely to go far.

Groundcar: Basically an armored car.

Shields: Energy shields that allow the passage of objects traveling at a maximum speed between 6-10 CM a second, but deflect all else. Shields on vehicles such as groundcars, buildings, and ornithopters can be set to admit only much slower objects, since they can have on-board life support, which means that the shields can be put on settings that normally would not admit gasses (bad for infantry, generally) Shields cause a massive explosion when hit with the beam from a lasgun.


So who has the advantage here? Under what circumstances could the Sardaukar win? Under what circumstances could the Goa'uld win?
Last edited by User1555 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:35 am

Moved.
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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by User1659 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:17 am

The Sardukar will not use Shields and Lasguns in to same battle space, they are trained not to because, if you hit a dune Shield with a Lasgun the ensuing explosion is the same is the same as a big nuke.

So the Bashar would command all Shields off but for two Sardukar one with a Lasgun and one with a shield.

"If we lose you know what to do"

So the out comes then become.

1) Sardukar Win
2) Every ones dead - gate is no more.

saying that the Sardukar will still win, there ground Lasguns can shoot down any air support from miles out so, it would be.

Wast at range then mop up.

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:01 pm

On the ground, the Goa'uld loose. Their forces are not numerous enough to compensate for the training and real military weapons the Sardaukar use.
The use of a shield alongside lasguns is curious but let's assume that the Sardaukar will be clever enough not to fire in direction of the shielded stargate.
I'm not sure how big the shield generator must be, but since shields can also be personal and, as far as I remember, not be visible, even if the Goa'uld were to win, they'd have some trouble to drop it.
Worse: they may attempt all sorts of methods to destroy the shield, including using all possible weapons at once, including lasguns.
Although the stargate would survive (if it's a Pegasus or Milky Way one), the DHD would probably be damaged to destroyed.
Death Gliders carry weapons, but they're not extremely accurate, especially against small crafts of their size: they need to fire within 100~150 meters to start hitting something (Redemption Part II, Fallen, Avalon Part I).
The ornithopters carry dumb missiles? I guess they have no lock system. That shouldn't be a problem for Death Gliders then, but could be against that Al'kesh, since it's quite big and lumbering in atmosphere. What about their lasguns' accuracy?
In terms of flying abilities, Death Gliders are well ontop, but that won't be useful here.
That said, they're capable of flying underwater, so a very clever Goa'uld who has properly assessed the pros and cons of his troops might try to have the gliders approach from underwater, going up the river and emerge at the last moment, if the depth allows it.
The shields on the Sardaukar vehicles will also give them some extra life points, really.

What are their yields though? Heavy machine gun fire has failed to damage Death Gliders as far as I can remember, and only staff fire could damage one (in the new Children of the Gods version - that sucks big times btw: think of Lucas redoing the OT).

The heavy staves won't do much for the Goa'uld as they have to move them, and can only do so assuming they're in range and aren't being shot down by Sardaukar fire. Unfortunately, Sardaukar weapons, if true military weapons (and I don't see why they wouldn't be) have zero reason to be limited in effective range as Goa'uld weapons are.

Now, that scenario wouldn't be so lopsided if the Goa'uld didn't have that Al'kesh. Although a few dumb missiles into the engines would bring it to the ground (we've never seen an Al'kesh explode from Sidewinder hits, only go down as its engines were hit with the missiles avoiding most of the ship's hull), it has two heavy staff cannons, like the Gliders, but also comes with a cloak, ring transport, and perhaps the capacity to go critical. The two Tel'taks only have the cloak. Both types of ships have an atmospheric shielding capable of taking a few Death Glider shots, and rather robust enough to literally crash into trees (as long as no one fires at the cockpit of an Al'kesh with a heavy energy weapon).

What is possibly a huge advantage here is that you gave the Goa'uld three ships with a cloak system AND hyperdrives.
Now I suppose the Goa'uld would most likely operate from the Al'kesh.
Capturing him will be hard, especially if the bugger just decides to use any of the space capable ships they have (including the Death Gliders) and stay up there or even move to another side of the planet.
The hyperspace capable ships will just allow him to get reinforcements in very little time; the Sardaukars can't go anywhere.
Eventually, if the Goa'uld is smart and not limited by plot induced stupidity, he may use one of those hyperspace capable ships to pick a large rock and bring it into the planet's atmosphere, and let it drop in the valley, on the Sardaukar's side of the river.
Heck, he could even use the FTL comms of any ship and ask for reinforcements brought by another ship, or even get a Ha'tak dispatched within a week.
He could also call for someone to dial the stargate, so he'll be sure to have an active stargate. We know that they're damn tough when activated. He'll be able to do his rock trick, but this time, instead of aiming for some high gigajoule massacre, could literally go fetch something on the range of a megaton blast. The stargate will easily survive that, while all Sardaukar forces will be partially damaged and heavily incapacitated.

Less exotic, he could have his Al'kesh decloak on top of the Sardaukars and drop bombs and dire its ventral cannons. That should level the field a great deal. Then he'd quickly recloak. He couldn't repeat this procedure ad nausuem, but if properly coordinated, he could split ornithopters forces and allow the Death Gliders to engage them and also shoot at the forces on the ground.
Meanwhile, he'll keep a hundred or so Jaffa split between both Tel'taks and maintain them cloaked, observing what goes on. He'd also carry a hundred more inside the Al'kesh (there's plenty of room for that).

Now, to make things simple. The Goa'uld could be just as coy as any other, and decide to leave the planet. So much for capturing him alive.
Sardaukar immediately fail their mission.

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by User1555 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:02 pm

I gave the Sardaukar shields, stunners and lasguns because I thought it reflected the loadout they might use for a landsraad conflict, in which the lasguns would be a powerful and valuable weapon, under the right circumstances. only 125 of them are armed with lasguns, while the other 375 have stunners-which fire poisoned darts that can go through shields by slowing down on impact with the shield. The rockets would likely have similar mechanisms, which would make Goa'uld shields (both personal and Al'Kesh) rather ineffective. They would still likely be proof against lasguns though.

Lasguns can be turned on to wide dispersal, which would be quite devastating up close. The problem as I see it is that they only have 125+10 for the ornithopters and groundcars. Aside from that, they have 16 total rockets and 375 stunners....which probably ineffective against Jaffa armor, considering they travel slower then bullets, and aren't designed to be armor piercing.

I like thinking outside the box with the Al'Kesh and destroying the shield with lasguns. The only problem I see with using the Al'Kesh to escape the planet would be that the Goa'uld did not complete his objective eithet-as the gate would still be in Sardaukar possession. There isn't much guarantee that the next reinforcement ship that comes in will be a HaTek instead of a guild ship, anyways. As a last-ditch effort though, it is very Goa'uld, and definitely reduces his chance of getting caught.

I'd say the Goa'uld definitely has the advantage here, because of the power and versatility of the Al'Kesh. I like the strategy of using underwater deathgliders and the cloaked Al'Kesh to ambush the Sardaukar. That would likely help a lot to get past their shield advantage-since they might not have them up out of combat due to the battery life.

I will update the original post for clarity and to add more information on Sardaukar technology. Can you think of any circumstances where the Sardaukar could win?

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 09, 2011 12:43 am

Aurochs wrote:I gave the Sardaukar shields, stunners and lasguns because I thought it reflected the loadout they might use for a landsraad conflict, in which the lasguns would be a powerful and valuable weapon, under the right circumstances. only 125 of them are armed with lasguns, while the other 375 have stunners-which fire poisoned darts that can go through shields by slowing down on impact with the shield. The rockets would likely have similar mechanisms, which would make Goa'uld shields (both personal and Al'Kesh) rather ineffective. They would still likely be proof against lasguns though.
Duneverse shields don't work on the same principles than all Goa'uld shields. For one, those one ships don't really care about the speed at which things move. Even personal shields can be made to be impervious to slow stuff like when Apophis had Replicators crawling over his own shield.
Now, Al'keshes don't have battle shields (although in Continuum, Teal'c, as First Prime of Baal, used an Al'kesh with shields capable of tanking several multi-GJ blasts from a Ha'tak in orbit). The hull of an Al'kesh is quite sturdy... when it decides not to explode from within!
However, I don't see how dumb missiles will be able to get even through the kind that lets slow stuff pass through. But it won't matter, since enough of those missiles would take take down the Al'kesh. My opinion is that it will be kept cloaked most of the time. It's just too valuable that way, like the two Tel'taks.
[/quote]
Lasguns can be turned on to wide dispersal, which would be quite devastating up close. The problem as I see it is that they only have 125+10 for the ornithopters and groundcars.
That's interesting. The Jaffa can provide some kind of persuasive barrage, but they still tend to rush towards an enemy when in large numbers (they get confidence that way, until they get in close quarters and are known to take cover extensively). All the Sardaukar need to do is camp and aim at the Jaffa horde.
However, if no danger comes from the air, then a decent barrage of weapon staff would force the Sardaukar to take cover, and allow some Jaffa to position the heavier cannons, and the cover gained from trees or small bumps won't matter much.
Aside from that, they have 16 total rockets and 375 stunners....which probably ineffective against Jaffa armor, considering they travel slower then bullets, and aren't designed to be armor piercing.
The rockets, I don't know, since that should be used by the ornithopters, and they'll have to deal with the Death Gliders first, which is likely going to have them expand a number of rockets.

But how accurate stunners are? And how many can be fired and carried by one stunner gun?
I like thinking outside the box with the Al'Kesh and destroying the shield with lasguns. The only problem I see with using the Al'Kesh to escape the planet would be that the Goa'uld did not complete his objective eithet-as the gate would still be in Sardaukar possession. There isn't much guarantee that the next reinforcement ship that comes in will be a HaTek instead of a guild ship, anyways. As a last-ditch effort though, it is very Goa'uld, and definitely reduces his chance of getting caught.

I'd say the Goa'uld definitely has the advantage here, because of the power and versatility of the Al'Kesh. I like the strategy of using underwater deathgliders and the cloaked Al'Kesh to ambush the Sardaukar. That would likely help a lot to get past their shield advantage-since they might not have them up out of combat due to the battery life.

I will update the original post for clarity and to add more information on Sardaukar technology. Can you think of any circumstances where the Sardaukar could win?
Well, if they had been given a few artillery pieces, yes. By the time of Dune, the Harkonnen were using such pieces which Vladimir had kept in storage for some time.
We can at the very least assume a yield and accuracy just as good as what we have planned for the next decade, right?

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by Admiral Breetai » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:57 am

Imperial Sardukar should tear Sg1 Jaffa apart outside of a few rarities I was never impressed with them as a whole especially against highly trained professional armies that don't fight like ancient soldiers do. a dedicated lot of crack troops who are actually as 'super" human as Jaffa are with experience fighting these type of brush fire like battles? I don't see it happening they should kill their way through the Jaffa with the stuff open to them and take this scenario.

movie Jaffa impressed me allot more, they were stealthy enormously powerful and had much better aim and that one that fought Kurt Russel was beastly if it was a detachment of them here as opposed to tv series scrubs it might be a pretty hard fought fight the Golden Lions soldiers might actually loose

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by User1555 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:31 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Duneverse shields don't work on the same principles than all Goa'uld shields. For one, those one ships don't really care about the speed at which things move. Even personal shields can be made to be impervious to slow stuff like when Apophis had Replicators crawling over his own shield.
Now, Al'keshes don't have battle shields (although in Continuum, Teal'c, as First Prime of Baal, used an Al'kesh with shields capable of tanking several multi-GJ blasts from a Ha'tak in orbit). The hull of an Al'kesh is quite sturdy... when it decides not to explode from within!
However, I don't see how dumb missiles will be able to get even through the kind that lets slow stuff pass through. But it won't matter, since enough of those missiles would take take down the Al'kesh. My opinion is that it will be kept cloaked most of the time. It's just too valuable that way, like the two Tel'taks.
[/quote]

I was just throwing out the possibility that duneverse rockets acted like stunners/hunter-seekers. I agree that I don't see it effecting the battle much, considering the Goa'uld only has a single shielded craft at its disposal.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That's interesting. The Jaffa can provide some kind of persuasive barrage, but they still tend to rush towards an enemy when in large numbers (they get confidence that way, until they get in close quarters and are known to take cover extensively). All the Sardaukar need to do is camp and aim at the Jaffa horde.
However, if no danger comes from the air, then a decent barrage of weapon staff would force the Sardaukar to take cover, and allow some Jaffa to position the heavier cannons, and the cover gained from trees or small bumps won't matter much.
The only problem I can see with the sarduakar camping is that their shields and lasguns will run low eventually, and they may be sitting ducks for the jaffa staff cannons and gliders. The best way I can see the sardaukar winning this battle would require them taking initiative and overrunning the jaffa before they can bring their full force to bear. I suspect that a battle of attrition would play to the strengths of the jaffa, esp on the ground.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:The rockets, I don't know, since that should be used by the ornithopters, and they'll have to deal with the Death Gliders first, which is likely going to have them expand a number of rockets.

But how accurate stunners are? And how many can be fired and carried by one stunner gun?
Stunners don't seem to be terribly accurate, they seem to use either suspensors to move slow enough to penetrate shields, considering that personal shields admit objects traveling 6-10 centimeters a second or less, depending on the setting. That's awfully slow. I suspect they would only be of any real use in close combat, but then there is the issue of trying to pierce the jaffas bullet-resistant armor with slow moving darts...

Since the stunners shoot darts equipped with suspensors, I would expect them to be pretty bulky-perhaps 30-50 per trooper armed with a stunner?
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Well, if they had been given a few artillery pieces, yes. By the time of Dune, the Harkonnen were using such pieces which Vladimir had kept in storage for some time.
We can at the very least assume a yield and accuracy just as good as what we have planned for the next decade, right?
I didn't give them any artillery pieces because I wanted them equipped for a Landsraad conflict. This means they get shields, no artillery, less lasguns and more stunners.

On a slightly related topic, there is a debate on SpaceBattles where people are seriously arguing that 30,000 stormtroopers could not only outshoot an equal number of shield/lasgun equipped sardaukar, but could also defeat them in close quarters combat. Am I the only one who thinks this is funny?

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:21 am

You got to be kidding me. What kind of idiot would ever espouse such a position?
Besides, there's the whole peculiar effect of using weapons that are a mix of some particles and photons (blasters). Sardaukar shields wouldn't like that. But the Sardaukar wouldn't let their shields up then, and their superior training and weapons would get rid of the Stormies.

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by User1555 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 3:23 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:You got to be kidding me. What kind of idiot would ever espouse such a position?
Besides, there's the whole peculiar effect of using weapons that are a mix of some particles and photons (blasters). Sardaukar shields wouldn't like that. But the Sardaukar wouldn't let their shields up then, and their superior training and weapons would get rid of the Stormies.
Mostly they seem to be arguing that the stormies would just gun them down before they could reach their lines. People don't seem to be paying much attention to the technological edge that lasguns and shields give them....not to mention their hand to hand abilities.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthre ... 155&page=5

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Re: Stargate vs Dune

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:45 pm

Shields may be prone to blow up but there's no reason the Sardaukars would not understand that this is the cause of enemy fire.
Their lasguns are still ought to be superior compared to the generally mediocre accuracy of SW infantry weapons.
That said, now that I've looked at the OP's scenario, there's quite a difference here. They both start 100 yards from each other, in open desert. That's less than 100 m. Well, based on movies, even that range is enough for Stormies to miss a lot on rapid fire.
That's not all. Now that I know the plot of this battle, I can tell that if the battle isn't settled in the first minutes, then the outcome described here is 200 % spot on.
Ah, sorry. VS scenario makers, not knowing enough about the forces they oppose, tend to make such thread.
I notice the updates.
Yep, I'll stop talking about that here, it's totally offtopic.

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