The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

VS debates involving other fictional universes than Star Trek or Star Wars go here, along with technical analysis, detailed discussion, crossover scenario descriptions, and similar related stuffs.
User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mith » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:46 pm

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Going through the calculations, it would seem that the explosion is approximately .704 kilometers in diameter (I realize it says circumference in the pic, just pretend it says diameter, I didn't realize what I had wrote when I did it). The radius of such an explosion would be 352 meters. According to Wong's calculator, a surface to ground explosion of 175 kilotons would be of sufficient power to create a 350 radius fireball, so more or less what we want.

Take note that this is an Exterminatus, where the big guns are supposed to be in play. It's also worth noting that the fireball duration in the clip is roughly two seconds and according to Mike's calculator, a 175 kt explosion would have a duration of 2.1 seconds.

User avatar
Khas
Starship Captain
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: Protoss Embassy to the Federation

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Khas » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:01 pm

But don't we also have to consider the fact that the ship is much closer to us than the explosion? Or did you already take that into account?

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mith » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:30 pm

Khas wrote:But don't we also have to consider the fact that the ship is much closer to us than the explosion? Or did you already take that into account?
Crap, no. I'm really bad at distance.

Even so, I can't imagine I'm too far off. At the very least the fireball's duration more or less matches up with what I've got for a 175 kt explosion.

User avatar
Khas
Starship Captain
Posts: 1287
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Location: Protoss Embassy to the Federation

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Khas » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:49 pm

We can also factor in the fact that because Typhon is mostly jungles and swamps, it has more oxygen and methane in its atmosphere than Earth does. This was the case on Earth 300 million years ago, where a whopping 1/3 of the Earth's atmosphere was oxygen, and the swamps that covered much of Pangaea at the time produced a log of methane, thus rendering the atmosphere highly flammable. Maybe a lot of the fire was air and plant life combusting due to the high levels of flammable gases.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:01 pm

We see a ship in the distance fire its beam at the planet. The surface is covered with a large white disc centered on the point of impact. This lets you know how big ships can be that far, considering that both the explosion Mith measured, and the ship he used as a yardstick, are closer to us. That said, it's true that the explosion he measured and the ship in question aren't on the same vertical plane, perpendicular to the direction of the camera's sight, from our point of view.
Simply put, you'll know that the fireball is, in size, between the ship he used and the other one in the distance, seen firing at the planet.
The fireballs are larger, but they don't pancake much despite making nice mushrooms, which would indicate a low altitude. Besides, the fact that the beams maintain their width down til they touch the ground means there's no perspective fooling us here.
However, this already means a rather weird atmosphere. The only way to reconcile this would be to make the ships more like 50 to 100 km long, because they're sitting way to close to the surface in order to be considered in space, yet the curvature of the planet clearly indicates, in terms of scale, that those ships should be that far up.
The curvature of the horizon really makes that planet very small in size.

If we were to take this at face value, we'd have to assume that the atmosphere's thickness is rather small, and that the planet is perhaps smaller than the Moon.
This would require the core to be very dense or something as to generate enough gravity to allow for the formation of a livable atmosphere, water and a green world.

I don't understand how this is supposed to be an Exterminatus. For one, the way the weapons are fired doesn't make much sense to me. The heavy turrets, assuming they can even point at 90% up, are rarely found underneath IoM warships.
Besides, if this is an Exterminatus, how can we be sure that it's not the initial stage, the one that aims at destroying certain structures with concentrating firepower, while knowing that the real Exterminatus arrays will deliver weapons which will scorch the world clean, even if largely incapable of melting the surface?
I consider that an Exterminatus is a combination of both: focused conventional weapon to reach isolated targets, but which cannot be used at length over greater areas, probably continents at most and certainly without the ability to focus much energy to burrow deep, and then the Exterminatus, which often is a sort of giant napalm thing, even if other effects happened.

At least, it seems that they have abandoned the idea that an Exterminatus is a one missile affair, like it happened in the two badly scaled cutscenes (Firewarrior and that other one which involves a fleet looming above a planet, locking on some target on the HUD).

Where is that material from btw?

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mith » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:23 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h67JpMyrOVE

The initial attacks show that they seem to be targeting certain areas. Later we see the technobabble bomb dropped and destroy the planet's surface.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:58 pm

So it is that cutscene after all. Horribly out of scale.
I'm wondering if this one wouldn't be more telling in the end, but having not played the game, I couldn't confirm the ravaged world we see from this burned area.

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mith » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:06 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:So it is that cutscene after all. Horribly out of scale.
I'm wondering if this one wouldn't be more telling in the end, but having not played the game, I couldn't confirm the ravaged world we see from this burned area.
Well, if size scale can't be trusted...well, it would seem that duration is all we have. =D

And that would still place it at a hundred and half kilotons. No matter which way we shake this, that's not high megatons, not even gigatons.

Also, look what someone posted on SB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIQslIC ... r_embedded

First few minutes.

Clearly those ships are hurling gigaton weaponry at each other.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:44 am

Yeah, saved on my hdd when I read that at SBC. Going with the idea that the big warships tank megatons at least as some kind of shrug level firepower, with the real meat being in the teratons, you'd expect all those ships not to blow up to anything lower than huge kilotons.

The intro is quite awesome. Everything from the chat to the debris falling on Corusc--- err random forge world Graia, with the quiet and sad music and all that.

I can't even believe how the in game graphics are more stylized and neat than the recent CGI movie.

User1663
Padawan
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by User1663 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:51 pm

So this is the pixel scaling you were telling me about? I must say I'm a little disappointed Mith. I had hoped a that little more analysis went into it then random guessing.

User1663
Padawan
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by User1663 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:12 pm

Mith wrote: Also, look what someone posted on SB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIQslIC ... r_embedded

First few minutes.

Clearly those ships are hurling gigaton weaponry at each other.
Mith you had this explained to you several times. Those ships are too small to be an actual warship of the imperial navy. Hell they're too small to be escorts. It's much more likely they were glorified troop transports of some kind .

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Picard » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:16 am

Going by what? 500-km lengths for IoM warships from wiki? Do we ever see such ships outside of books?

EDIT: And in Planet Fall video, we see ships turning upsode down, presumably for bombardment.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:39 pm

the atom wrote:
Mith wrote: Also, look what someone posted on SB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIQslIC ... r_embedded

First few minutes.

Clearly those ships are hurling gigaton weaponry at each other.
Mith you had this explained to you several times. Those ships are too small to be an actual warship of the imperial navy. Hell they're too small to be escorts. It's much more likely they were glorified troop transports of some kind .
The things is, if you scale down from the Destroyers, supposedly a tad less than a kilometer long and most obviously already sporting weapons in the gigaton range at least, those ships should already be exchanging high megatonnage weapon fire, especially when the one who generally came with the high numbers also already and routinely gave 1 to 3 digit MJ firepower to mundane infantry weapons such as lasrifles.
Seeing those still large troop transports going to what looks like very moderate gigajoule firepower obviously doesn't really fit that paradigm.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:55 pm

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=359
Heliostorm wrote:
Mith wrote: The explosion has not risen above the cloud layer. We can clearly see it right there.
There's this thing called "distance". I don't know if you're aware of it. But just because a person in the foreground takes up more space than a mountain in the background, does not mean that the mountain is smaller than a human.
The same Heliostorm who goes on to talk about distance then believes that he measure the height of a fireball against the diameter of a planet... with the fireball not even remotely anywhere near the horizon.
The method already has flaws when you measure the width of a fireball since from afar, against the width of a planet, but when we're dealing with large explosions (well above multi-GT) this is tolerable. However, measuring height is not, as its visual length on the screen varies dramatically if moved around the surface of a planet.
Yet that's exactly what he does here:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=365
Heliostorm wrote: Click

The height of the fireball is about 1/51 of the planetary radius (count the purple lines if you don't believe me). Assuming Typhon is the size of Titan, the smallest atmosphere-bearing celestial body that we know of, that puts the size of the fireball at 50.5 kilometers high. Assuming Typhon is the size of Earth, it's 125 kilometers high.
:/

Now, again, I don't know why you're all bothering with those measurements as the whole scene has severe scaling issues. The ships are way too big, and the beams should taper by the time they'd reach the surface.
That, or the planet Typhonis is ridiculously small --- and therefore there's something extremely dense in its core that allows it to behave like an Earth sized world.
That's the same issues you find in all those planet bombardments cutscenes from the Warhammer 40,000 games.

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: The Exterminatus of Typhoon Primaris

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:40 pm

Leo1 thinks the dense core is a "ridiculous postulate" yet hardly provides any alternative.
Is it more ridiculous than, say, never spotting the problem with the scales or knowing about them but just choosing to ignore them and then focus on the big explosions, like most people of SBC do?
We still get WR trying to bait Mith on a firepower debate. It's like, what? five times in a row in this thread?
And obviously Heliostorm also fails to provide a smart alternative to the dense core hypothesis.

Rama's post was more constructive, although he also failed to provide an alternative.
Ramapedia wrote:Unless it possessed an incredibly dense core with a high surface escape velocity thanks in part to a naturally occurring material with a ridiculous density and high spin due in part to magic. Of course the problem is that the planet would be geologically dead thanks to a higher surface-to-volume ratio that would cause it to bleed energy at a rate that would make it incapable of supporting surface life through thermal emissions, plus the air would have to form a fully tiered atmospheric strata (if Mith's assumed scaling is accurate) where barometric pressure would be incapable of supporting accumulation past a hundred meters if at all, so atmospheric pressure would drop off to unacceptable levels of sustainability at tolerable baseline Earth levels.

You would need an Oxygen tank and Arctic winter gear just to climb to the top of the average City apartment building.
You don't even really need a high spin in theory. That said, it does have a relation to the convection in the core of a planet.
But the spin just provides a small effect that affects to a very small degree the gravity of the planet.
The ground and its solidity is what largely keeps one from falling towards the core.
The near-lack of acceleration due to the spin at Earth's poles has little effect on one's weight. In fact, the ovoid shape of Earth has far greater effects.
Where is it said that the planetoid has to have the exact same angular momentum as Earth's, or anything near?

So I don't see why there's such fuzz about the planetoid's spin.
The magnetic field and convection will require some spin, but nothing silly, and that's based on compositions we know. Clearly, a super dense core like that would be full of oddities.
The real problem I can see is that the crust around it just doesn't have the same density at all. The crust's lower mantle might have had some angular velocity greater than the core itself (and cause lots of friction, heat and some magnetic field I guess), but that's how far I can speculate cause I'm not an astrophysicist.

AS such, the planet doesn't have to be considered geologically dead either, it all depends on the materials inside the planet. Let's just remember that there's just a bunch of theories about what's going inside Earth thus far, and nuclear decay is often advanced as the most likely theory. A dense core doesn't preclude anything like that, especially since we wouldn't know what's inside the planet. Obviously the material would be one of its kind. We don't know how old this world is either. It's totally possible it bears a shorter lifespan.

As for the barometric pressure, gravity will precisely be capable of acquiring and maintaining an atmosphere just like on Earth. The pressure is nothing than a measure of the column of air above one's head, really. That you have a billion 50 km tall columns or just a thousand only changes the total amount of atmosphere. The real problem is due to the spin.

I'd be a good thing for Rama to detail his claims, really.

Post Reply