ISA forces sub at endor

[User1555]

I think you are giving too much credit to the durability of SW craft-remember that mere A-wing blaster cannons were able to cause enough shield bleedthrough to destroy the bridge deflector shields on the SSD. If we are assuming that the Empire has enough time to prepare their battle plans for the arrival of the B5 fleet and react accordingly (as opposed to going by the same battle plan they had in store for the rebels), then it is fair to give the ISA fleet knowledge of the bridge weakness inherent in Star Destroyers. With their long range weaponry.

Even by Babtech's assessment of the main guns of the Victory ships, they have significantly more firepower then the turbolasers used to hunt asteroids in ESB. Assuming that the main gun of the Victories is more powerful then tat of an A-wing, we can probably conclude that any hit from a victory to the bridge will destroy it, rendering it inoperable. Even shield bleedthrough from a center of mass hit is likely to cause significant damage, although will not necessarily destroy it outright.

Victories have beam turrets in the movie and rapid-fire turrets in the spinoff, they are not oriented towards forward firing at all.

I would not discount the effectiveness of ramming as a tactic by the ISA. Remember that SW itself is not immune to collisions, A SD lost its bridge to a low velocity impact from an asteroid, in what appears to be some sort of secondary explosion, and the unshielded bridge of the SSD lost its bridge to a ramming maneuver to an a-wing, which are much smaller then the whitestar we see ram the Omega at Proxima.

G'Quans should not be dismissed as ineffective. At the Battle of Corianna, we see what appears to be a G'Quans red beams destroying the bridge of a Vorlon Dreadnought. Also, they do have the energy mines, which will likely be much more effective against massed unarmored, unshielded TIEs then they were against the absorbent battlecrab armor/flesh.

According to JMS, the Narns are more advanced then Earth.
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-12720&query=drazi
Narn are about equal in terms of military strength to humanity:
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15 ... 20strength
Considering that the Narn military is consistently portrayed as being much smaller in number then earthforce, their ships are probably superior in some aspect over earthforce ships. They have been shown damaging/destroying both Vorlon and Shadow ships, which is something that Omegas have not. They also have access to the energy mines and powerful nuclear bombs, which they could possibly also use in the battle in some capacity.

ISA will likely have fighter superiority in this battle, thanks to their excellent Point defense, fighters, and the energy mines. Once the shield is down, there isn't much that the Empire can do to prevent the destruction of the deathstar, as all of the ISA fighters bar the Sky Serpent should be maneuverable enough to avoid obstacles in the tunnels. Surviving the turrets outside may be a problem, but they should have the numbers to do it, and at the very least, we have evidence of Nial fighters being able to perform hairpin turns at speeds comparable to the ones the rebel fighters took when the swooped into the tunnel. (In one of the season 5 episodes Lineer makes a sharp turn at high speed to avoid an asteroid, this episode also shows us that Nials can perform voice activated computer lock-ons to target specific features on other fighters)

If they can destroy the Death Star and kill the Emperor (and possibly Vader) then the rest of the Imperial fleet should flee or surrender in short order.

[Admiral Breetai]

Daww.. you're gonna make me blush in front of everyone... =^_^=\

I maybe hard ass but I am not blind I recognize good posters when I sees 'em lol

Oh, pound for pound the Nials should be able to slaughter twice their number, the thunderbolts I agree should be no slouches either.

they where able to take a dozen or so star furies down per nial just FYI and the more advanced star furies can mount anti capship missiles

However I think the sheer overwhelming fighter opposition, which was determined using a very conservative figure, should allow for a substantial number of tie bombers to get through and to the weaker capital ships.

are tie bombers actively affective in combat? i thought their only wide spread use was bombing the asteroid field and stationary stuff like that

]I seem to remember a G'quan launching a fighter in the show, but I can double check at my earliest convenience.

Frazis are slow moving but have nasty guns and iirc allot of power in them engines (one of them for example could tow Catherine Sakais freighter out of decaying orbit)

Rebel fighters where severely out numbered yet pulled through due impart to the better designs and superior skill

So shall we agree 2 megatons then? I think 1.5 is more fair based on total firepower out put, although the fact that the battery does not represent a single gun, but instead several, the output is of course higher per grouping.

sure though I think b5 may have a higher rate of fire if less potent

While I will admit it'
s a primary figure for a minbari ship, we must also account that it only absorbed a fraction of the two megatons, and that this is a ship of the line.

the problem is again omegas can take a devastating beating as can G'quans (though to a lesser extent) and Warlocks have shown the ability to take dozens of shots from Vorchan main canons and still able to continue firing despite the damage

these are the same ships that can one shot a G'quan and rip through Vorlon Armor on whitestars Victories as said before can continue to hurl obscene fire and accelerate after literally loosing half the ship to a planet killer

so some of these ships are extremely tough

However: I will be willing to give a slightly higher rating over all to the warlocks at the very least, they are 20 years ahead of the previous design, and the omegas rarely 'die' so much as they rapidly decompress all decks and flood the remaining with flames.

those main guns are also supposed to be really devastating

Still: The gaping hangers are massive weak points in many of these ships, and we've seen the effects of low speed ramming on several of these vessels. I wouldn't give their armor rating the highest in the world. I'll see about digging out some figures for the Omega/Omega Ram, the White Star Omega Ram, and the Omega Satellite Ram.

the omega didn't ram the satellite leftcourt blasted it out of the stars before Sheridan could just FYI

and yeah they do have weak points mind you..Mon Cal cruisers and ISD's both had glaring gaping holes in the under belly

Most of the smaller ships are not known for being the best armored in the series (although the white stars are a reasonable exception, having taken hits from battlecrabs), we've seen the main firepower capability of a centuri warship against a small starfurry and the blow didn't kill the starfurry so much as it did a small bit of damage and then sent it on her way. It keeps in well with the rapid fire capabilities of the weapons and the 200 megawatt figure I think to rate certainly the older ships armor as being relatively inferior (the warlocks may prove more substantial than the others).

to be fair I doubt that starfury took a direct hit and yeah the Primus armor is pretty crummy but thats directly related to a design flaw they never bothered to correct

On a side note: The Bakari ships double as passenger liners, I don't t think they will play that important a role in the battle since they aren't purpose built warships.

they supposedly had decent fire power but usually got blasted to bits before they could show it

As for the Victories: Their biggest advantage is the stated 80% energy absorption/deflection, something none of the other ships come close too... and while powerful and impressive, they still suffer from that 'dedicated forward firing arc' that everyone but the humans seem to enjoy so much (Hell, we see omegas have rear firing primary weapons even).

actually no those suckers are covered in weapons to the extent that once or twice in Crusade I could of sworn the sucker sported an anime style aura when it started lobbing off firing

it actually has iirc three or four large neutron beam weapons in its rear that it can fire non stop IIRC and numerous anti fighter and anti ship pulse weapons and minor beam weapons all over its hull plus the main guns and its big canon

the thing was a pin sea urchin or a flying porcupine basically

I always found it ironic that the humans were the race that chose to focus on having dedicated 360 degree firing arcs (and even main weapons mounted to the rear). The shadows demonstrate pretty effectively that attacking from other angles or in new and unusual fire arcs was pretty devastating to the bulk of the younger races (to say nothing of their amazing accuracy compared to everyone else).

like wise

Beyond that I can agree with the bulk of your ship assessments... I just question if the 30 bricks and the 6 super bricks are going to hold up as well to the dozens of turbolasers per star destroyer and the super laser long enough to protect the rest of the fleet. It doesn't help that they won't have initial fighter superior due to the numbers involved, allowing the bombers to get through, to say nothing of the superior fighter acceleration witnessed in starwars which will allow them to escape imminent death, as well as dictate a heavy segment of the engagement against capital ships, rather than in the no mans land between them.

the rebellion lacked numeric supremacy as well but did fairly well once the shield was done..especially with the Falcon doing back up

I agree that the swiftness of the white stars and the sunhawks will be an issue, but the sunhawks biggest contribution is a dedicated heavy long term combatant fighter craft, and the sunhawks may be better suited to providing cover against the fighter attacks.

they may very well be switching them with the WS's to provide fighter support they also should have weapons able to knock out shield towers if given the time

The White Stars, however, can not afford to not be involved in active battle, especially against the SSD, which must be dealt with quickly, it's bigger with babylon five with hundreds of more weapons, and dedicated sectional shields. Even if all the victories shot at her I doubt it'd be enough to bring her down in the first volley, and that's a full minute of no victory assisting. I actually think the victories would be better suited to busting the shields of the star destroyers, six for the first volley, which will give a substantial early gain to the warlocks and omegas... and if they are lucky they'll blast a few fighter squads in the process.

well thats where the Warlocks and G'quan come in Warlocks supposedly have two of the same particle canons used against the alliance during the war against clark (the ones capable of devastating the eastern sea board)

having them reign sustained fire on the SSD while getting back up from the G'quans and lighter ships?

They also sport Ion Cannons to disable enemy ships.

really? sweet

The large issue is we only have a few other major statements, including that the victories main gun can pretty much one shot any of those older ships. We've seen battlecrabs cut through with relative ease on most of the younger ships, which gives us an important look at the thickness of their armor, and we know that the innards of those launch bays are very weak.

we do actually have some really good examples the victories last stand...lost tales has Warlocks just absorbing Vorchan fire power something unheard of and a G'quan managing a go at a shadow battle crab with enough force to sheer off one of its spines

]A friend of mine actually put it very well: The hard thing in babylon five is hitting a target, not damaging it. Once you can focus continual fire pretty much any ship in that verse goes down, because they all don't have perfect full armor coverage (well, save for the victories, which are just insane with 80% total energy deflection). It's less about the fact that they can take those hits and more about the consequences of doing so. We have numerous cases of reactors going critical, life support systems failing, and entire ships rendered incapable in less than five-ten minutes of battle and being forced to ram.

well theres that true enough

When they start to deal with the heavy fire that those star destroys are going to be churning out, and the fact that lucky shots with HTLs are mission kills to the weaker armored ships (and I'm actually watching a video right now. I'll actually say 2-4 HTL hits for those omegas and warlocks, the white star ramming isn't as devastating as I remembered, and more importantly they can turn to keep their armor facing). To sum it up: One of the reasons the shadows were so effective (and the white stars) was because they weren't just fast, they were accurate to boot.

eh ISD seems to have manual firing capabilities while their accurate the range isn't up to b5 range which I think is a good reason why allot of the b5 ships are going to be able to survive for any amount of time

This is to say nothing for the extreme accuracy of the death star (who should be focused primarily on the victories the entire fight).

to be fair the DS fired on stationary targets

[

I'll give you four on one odds for the sharlins against a SD due to the stealth field.

I think even with it they'll take losses due to lucky shots

One on One for the warlocks may be a bit generous, but we have limited data on the warlocks due to their short lived existence in the series (and I don't feel like digging up the books) so considering it's an upgraded designed I'll give it one - one odds.

what data we do have is impressive

Omegas at four - 1 I'll give.

G'quans I'm gonna say 6-1 due to poor firing arcs and no stealth field.

sounds reasonable

I still think those sun hawks are gonna be much more important on fighter defense than attacking main stream ships, same for the Bakari... protecting those victories is the key to winning the battle after all.

probably but Sunhawks are no jokes and Drazi are crazy enough to mass ram..

The largest problem with this abasement is that the victories still will have to use their main guns to do enough damage to both the shields and the hull... and they are going to loose a victory in the opening seconds of the battle. The SSD is deadly to be sure, and it needs to be focused upon but those main cannons can do a lot more damage as shield busting weapons.

they have fairly powerful weapons aside from their main guns as well to be fair

Furthermore: I'm gonna say you're not gonna want the slower ships to deal with the SSD, white stars and fighter craft need to really focus on her. Were talking 2000 HTLs, 2000 MTLS, 250 Ion cannons, 500 point defense weapons 250 missile batteries, and 40 tractor beams... Anything that gets close to her and can't move isn't going to last more than a few mere seconds.

theres that true enough mind ye a jump point on a hull section or two..if any Minbari cap ships are left standing

]Absolutely. Only the narns were shown to be truly incompetent in ground combat (literally charging into the guns), and those weren't, we can presume, dedicated ground combat forces, but rather whoever G'kar rounded up... the short of it is that armor is gonna be murder on the empires 'most elite' forces.

Narns can take a gargantuan amount of physical torture and abuse before dying so I sort of understand them doing that it was still pretty stupid though

Moving forward a bit:

If we presume the total destruction of the imperial forces is the goal then the running charge made into the star destroyers must be made, we can also presume the star destroyers, knowing of the impending battle, are going to move away from 'trap' and more into 'defense,' position their own lines between the death star and the incoming forces as best they can.

Leftcourt and G'kars goal is the same as Akbars..so assume all or nothing..with their more aggressive and possibly experienced (leftcourt) command style

The Imperial fighters hold a massive acceleration advantage (although its the only advantage they hold) and should be kept first as rapid response to the engaging alliance fleet.

agreed

The alliance fleet will concentrate it's jumps like most B5 forces, to several ships per jump point. They should be jumping beyond the initial range of the star destroyers, giving them time to form up and launch fighters. For simplicity sake the death star holds fire until it knows which ships (the victories) to target.

to be fair Leftcourt was no idiot the guy may just as well use the enemies lack of familiarity with jump tech to..his advantage with the Minbari in the opening run

The total elimination of the death star requires the fighters to make it not just past the star destroyers but also past the ties and then the death star defenses. This is going to require ship support to keep the SDs off of their fighters, furthermore the death star is going to force a close range engagement just as it did in ROTJ.

agreed

To this end the Warlocks, Omegas, and G'quans must engage the star destroyers. The Sharlins and the White stars should focus their strengths are moving towards the death star or focusing fire on the SSD, one or the other.

I would try and run the SSD down first but alright fair enough

If the fighters are supported they can then attempt the attack run on the death star, but they will be at a disadvantage. Babylon Five fighters do not do the crazy moves shown in the death star tunnels and those tie fighters did..

no but they do a whole bunch of other crazy shit..and I doubt they wouldnt be able to make a DS core run

Finally: Battle meditation from the Emperor is going to be a considerable factor.

let's keep the EU and such insanity out of this lol

If the Victories are used to shield bust 6 ISDs at the start this will give considerable advantage, rather than focusing their fire on a less functional target (such as the SSD or the Death Star). The Shield systems are going to give incredible staying power against the enemy vessels. We've seen the younger races deal with dedicated shielded aliens (third space) in which the exchange was costing them white stars against the fighters (much less the enemy capital ships). If we deduce only a minor armor advantage (and I'd be more wiling to give a considerable advantage) to the SW forces those shields will give them the staying power to win against numerous enemy vessels.

Using that staggered style of strategy to support the fighter attack on the death star should prove to be their most effective gambit.

Theoretically, of course, this presumes they can even attack the imperial fleet or the death star at the beginning of the battle. If I was vadar I would move the fleet behind the shield as soon as I knew the rebels weren't coming. While I do give a victory on the ground to the B5 forces, said forces will still have to actually conduct their ground operations. Since the endor ground forces seem to be taken a bit by surprise this time around I'm gonna say the shield goes down in half as much time as originally.




My opinion still is the final result is a relatively decided victory for the empire in the sky, subsequently ruined entirely when IG-88 blows up the imperial battlefleet and then Endor for good measure. ^_^ (heh, expanded universe is crazy sometimes).

However: I'll give it a closer out come. I'll presume 50-60% casualties for the Empire, rather than my original opinion, which was closer to 30-40%. I still think the alliance forces will be forced into retreat before the battle is over, rather than loose all six victories. The Empire, of course, has no choice but to fight to the last. If the Alliance forces can't topple the imperial fleet when they've taken about 50% casualties... they will scrap the operation.


So to summarize:

Ground forces on endor are taken by surprise, a defense is established, vadar is notified.

Vadar moves the fleet behind the shield and prepares for the attack.

Alliance forces jump in. Vadars fleet positions themselves between the death star proper and them.

Fighters and ships advance, hoping the shields will be down.

Victories and other ships enter range and open fire, failing to damage in the first wave due to the shield. Victories fire their main cannons to no effect against the shield.

Death star returns fire against a victory.

Franklin reports that he is almost done with the battle, he needs only enough time to blow the generator.

Ships prepare for attack, shield generator falls.

Death star fires its second shot. A group of ships shielding the Victories (lets say two sun hawks and a Bakiri) bite it.

Five victories open fire, warlocks and omegas charge forward. Sharlins and White Stars attempt to flank the fleet. White Stars break off to support a fighter attack on the SSD.

The star destroyers struck by the victories are downed in short order. However, the full minute recharge gives the remaining 26 star destroyers ample time to open fire on the fleet. Distances are closed on both sides to better support fighter operations. The Alliance fleet closes to help protect against the death star.

The G'quans suffer heavy losses, omegas and warlocks suffer light losses. Tie bombers break through the fighter screens by weight of numbers. Interceptors pull back to defend the death star against attack.

The first run on the death star begins. Starfurries remain behind to hinder the SSD, The Nials and Thunderbolts attempt to make it to the target destination.

First wave is stopped with heavy sacrifices from the tie interceptors.

First Sharlins break through to support operations against the death star. Second fighter attack is launched, thunderbolts decide to cover the Nials, who are more maneuverable.

Death star has attacked several more times, victories have attacked several more times.

Death Star may or may not die in the attack. Tie fighters will be too busy assisting the executor. Emperor evacuates the death star to be safe.



Going from this: I think the best outcome the Alliance can hope for is to inflict 50% casualties to the Imperial forces, with a good possibility of destroying the death star if they are willing to sacrifice the ships to do so.

However: i think the casualties inflicted will make it a less substantial victory. Forces will be forced to retreat, pick up ground troops, and jump to safety.

Battle we could presume a battle length between 15-30 minutes, depending on just how much in the way of losses the Alliance is willing to take. 40% losses is an extreme number of people killed... loosing on average three victories may be unacceptable.

Further analysis can not be done till I know the degree of dedication to the attack. If they are very dedicated (IE: All or nothing) They may just ram the SSD to death, which will turn the battle in their favor if they still have the bulk of the victories remaining. If we presume they operate like most militaries, high end KIA figures won't be good, not to mention the resources lost.

though to be fair, they'd most likely be walking away with nearly no casualties on the ground, with nearly the entire storm trooper garrison either killed or in hiding (presuming no vadar on the ground, and instead on the Executor).

I like it but I think the Alliances forces have a bit better chance if the commanders can make use of the Sharlins and victories better

That was a bit more long winded then I wanted and not as concise as I had hoped, but I had an Osama Party last night so forgive me, kinda tired. ^_^

I just got back from Argentina this morning so tired too

[Picard]

They also sport Ion Cannons to disable enemy ships.

I don't remember ever seeing SW ship with ion cannons.

[User1555]

They also sport Ion Cannons to disable enemy ships.

I don't remember ever seeing SW ship with ion cannons.

Stuff like Battle meditation and Ion cannons on Star Destroyers that never pop up in the movies always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to include in debates like this.

There's a reason that I don't push for the inclusion of things like Badger-class starfuries in vs debates like this, despite being in B5 EU.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that their is more support for their inclusion in the B5 verse then stuff like battle meditation. The badger actually got as far as concept art before getting left on the cutting room floor, and was acknowledged by JMS himself, while Battle meditation only appeared after the KoTOR game (correct me if I'm wrong), which would make its compatibility with RoTJ far more questionable, considering that RoTJ came out before the concept of B meditation.

[Admiral Breetai]

JMS has come out and said he considers certain novels and one or two rpgs canon..the problem is b5 EU is a thousand times more wanked then SW and you got really crazy shit like shadows and vorlons spamming multiversal fleets and other such nonsense

so really..it's best to leave it alone it can get mind bogglingly stupid at times

[User1555]

JMS has come out and said he considers certain novels and one or two rpgs canon..the problem is b5 EU is a thousand times more wanked then SW and you got really crazy shit like shadows and vorlons spamming multiversal fleets and other such nonsense

so really..it's best to leave it alone it can get mind bogglingly stupid at times

Which books have the multiversal war? The ones that were cannon or the ones that are non-cannon? At any rate, there is some support for vorlons and shadows messing with space/time in order to get the upper hand on one another, and this coems from the actual series. Remember B4? The triluminaries? the Machine on Epsilon Eridani? There are way too many things going on in the timeline that would make sense without shadows or vorlons (esp vorlons) time traveling. Then there here are the triluminaries, of course. Why were there vorlons waiting for Valen/Sinclair when he traveled back in time (the ones flanking him when he meets the minbari) Someone had to go forward in time to even know that B4 existed, to go back in time to set up events that would lead to b4 getting sent back, etc etc etc. There is plenty of evidence merely through this arc that someone was messing with the timeline. (if you think about it, the vorlons, minbari would have lost the prior shadow war without B4, and that B4 likely would not have been built if they had lost the war...this means that the vorlons must have been exploring parallel dimensions to look for a suitable base. Think about that one for a while.

At any rate, some aspects of B5 EU are more feasible then others, such as the badger starfury, which only just didn't make it into the show. We know that there are other starfury variants out there on the show; the construction-fury, the stealth starfuries used by psicorps, and the two-seater starfury aka the 'muskrat' with an additional cockpit facing backwards mounted on the rear. (which is seen in only one episode). keep in mind that the Nova class, which had such a big role in the Earth-Minbari war is only in two episodes of the series (not counting In The Beginning), presumably because most were destroyed during the war. The Badger was intended to be in much the same situation-it was one of three new earthforce ship types slated to be included in In The Beginning. of those three, only Olympus made it into the movie though. We still have concept art of the Badger though:

http://web.me.com/coventrycat/Site/Port ... ade.html#7

JMS on the Badger, showing he fully intended to include it:

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-11123&query=badger

[Admiral Breetai]

Which books have the multiversal war? The ones that were cannon or the ones that are non-cannon? At any rate, there is some support for vorlons and shadows messing with space/time in order to get the upper hand on one another, and this coems from the actual series. Remember B4? The triluminaries? the Machine on Epsilon Eridani? There are way too many things going on in the timeline that would make sense without shadows or vorlons (esp vorlons) time traveling. Then there here are the triluminaries, of course. Why were there vorlons waiting for Valen/Sinclair when he traveled back in time (the ones flanking him when he meets the minbari) Someone had to go forward in time to even know that B4 existed, to go back in time to set up events that would lead to b4 getting sent back, etc etc etc. There is plenty of evidence merely through this arc that someone was messing with the timeline. (if you think about it, the vorlons, minbari would have lost the prior shadow war without B4, and that B4 likely would not have been built if they had lost the war...this means that the vorlons must have been exploring parallel dimensions to look for a suitable base. Think about that one for a while.

I believe wars of the ancients or one of the other mongoose publishing books have the Vorlons and other first ones launching a massive war against the shadows or the hand and the third spacers which was fought on a time lord from Dr Who scale which ended with one of the first one species having to suicide fuse with reality to keep it from collapsing.

no species possess technology even remotely close to the TL's in b5 it was pretty fucking crazy...than theres the whole "the first time the shadows showed up..in was with hundred of quintillions of vessels which literally gummed up space so much the debris from destroyed vessels formed with cosmic dust to make planets" or something similarly not backed up at all by the canon material

At any rate, some aspects of B5 EU are more feasible then others,

oh sure and some are novels written during the shows run and are consistent in some ways others..on the other hand

http://web.me.com/coventrycat/Site/Port ... ade.html#7

JMS on the Badger, showing he fully intended to include it:

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-11123&query=badger

sweet

[User1555]

I would agree with you that the dust from destroyed First One ships forming planets is pretty stupid, and best ignored, but there is a bit of evidence to support that the vorlon-shadow conflict was bigger then we see firsthand on the show.

There are some EU bits in both series that mesh with the series pretty well. The badger starfury for instance doesn't harm the setting at all and fits into it very well. Its inclusion or exclusion don't really change much of the setting.

For a similar example, there was a scene from the first star wars movie where Luke talks to Biggs on Tatooine. It established his character earlier on and made his death all the more important. In this case, I would argue that the movies would have actually been better had this scene been included in some capacity.

Trouble comes when folks bring up things SD ion canons and heavy turbolasers. If SDs had Ion guns, one would have expected them to use it against the Tantive IV or the Millennium Falcon. Likewise, the heavy turbolasers are never seen to explicitly fire in the movies, but are assigned levels of firepower far in access of what we see demonstrated in the films. Would it be logical to assume that they are stronger then normal TLs? Probably. Leveling cities? That's a bit much.

[Admiral Breetai]

I would agree with you that the dust from destroyed First One ships forming planets is pretty stupid, and best ignored, but there is a bit of evidence to support that the vorlon-shadow conflict was bigger then we see firsthand on the show.

the shadows keep in mind at the time had about Minbari or Centuari level Tech to the Vorlons being 'bout EA level..the idea of a species that primitive with out the terraforming or anything capable of fielding ships in numbers so vast 45% of all the planets formed in the "middle" part of the fucking Galaxy was formed around debris from your damage vessels I mean Christ how many quintillion of ships would you need to do that?

can you imagine a Centuari/Minbari level civilization fielding that?

I'm aware that they're conflict was a bit larger scale, but the idea of them warring with the hand or who ever to the extent that an entire multiverse was in danger of collapsing? sounds really out of tier so to speak

There are some EU bits in both series that mesh with the series pretty well. The badger starfury for instance doesn't harm the setting at all and fits into it very well. Its inclusion or exclusion don't really change much of the setting.

the b5 EU seems to be pretty big not nearly SWEU level closer to sekai or LOGH but all the same and sadly the stuff that's not "canon" according to JMS is the more consistent accurate to series level stuff

mind you as a general rule I tend to dismiss all EU's

For a similar example, there was a scene from the first star wars movie where Luke talks to Biggs on Tatooine. It established his character earlier on and made his death all the more important. In this case, I would argue that the movies would have actually been better had this scene been included in some capacity.

oh yeah I remember seeing pictures of that biggs was rocking a bad ass cape

Trouble comes when folks bring up things SD ion canons and heavy turbolasers. If SDs had Ion guns, one would have expected them to use it against the Tantive IV or the Millennium Falcon. Likewise, the heavy turbolasers are never seen to explicitly fire in the movies, but are assigned levels of firepower far in access of what we see demonstrated in the films. Would it be logical to assume that they are stronger then normal TLs? Probably. Leveling cities? That's a bit much.

keep in mind that Star Wars Ion canons don't work the way Klingon (I think they at various points used ion weaponry) and Centuari do

Centuari Ionic weaponry is actually capable of ripping a ship into tiny pieces SWU Ion based weaponry seems more like capital ship stun guns

they very well could of used Ion weaponry on both ships to disable with out causing too much damage and it's not too out of context or what have you..seeing as the weapons are much more passive then other fictions

[User1555]

the shadows keep in mind at the time had about Minbari or Centuari level Tech to the Vorlons being 'bout EA level..the idea of a species that primitive with out the terraforming or anything capable of fielding ships in numbers so vast 45% of all the planets formed in the "middle" part of the fucking Galaxy was formed around debris from your damage vessels I mean Christ how many quintillion of ships would you need to do that?

can you imagine a Centuari/Minbari level civilization fielding that?

I'm aware that they're conflict was a bit larger scale, but the idea of them warring with the hand or who ever to the extent that an entire multiverse was in danger of collapsing? sounds really out of tier so to speak

It would make more sense if this was the super advanced vorlons/shadows from the series, possibly drawing reinforcements from other dimensions and timelines (since it would appear that this is at least somewhat within their power), but it is extremely ridiculous if they were YR level tech at this time.

the b5 EU seems to be pretty big not nearly SWEU level closer to sekai or LOGH but all the same and sadly the stuff that's not "canon" according to JMS is the more consistent accurate to series level stuff

mind you as a general rule I tend to dismiss all EU's

I agree with most EU. If it doesn't hurt the highest level cannon, or contradict it. (galaxy gun, palpatine using force meditation etc I would view as inconsistent with the universe/actions presented in the movies) On the other hand, I really don't see things like the inclusion of E-Wings or Badger Starfuries as being really inconsistent with the universe. For the purposes of vs debates though, EU stuff should probably be excluded unless otherwise mentioned. I would accept something like Stealth/Muskrat Starfuries for the purposes of this debate, but not Badgers, because they are outside of the primary material. If we were taking a 'high-consistency EU' kind of approach, I wouldn't mind stuff like Badgers and E-wings being included, but I don't think that stuff like the Sun Crusher or the aforementioned shadow-vorlon garbage unless we were taking an all-inclusive approach.

keep in mind that Star Wars Ion canons don't work the way Klingon (I think they at various points used ion weaponry) and Centuari do

Centuari Ionic weaponry is actually capable of ripping a ship into tiny pieces SWU Ion based weaponry seems more like capital ship stun guns

they very well could of used Ion weaponry on both ships to disable with out causing too much damage and it's not too out of context or what have you..seeing as the weapons are much more passive then other fictions

Yes, I am aware of how Ion weapons work in SW. I was just thinking that if SDs had Ion guns, like what we see on Hoth (although presumably on a smaller scale) we would have expected to see them used on the Tantive IV to disable it (as opposed to risking complete destruction by using turbolasers) likewise for when Vader is trying to capture the even more fragile Millennium falcon. The fact that we never see this would seem to be a point of inconsistency with the earlier claim that SDs are armed with them.

I would say that it is plausible that the empire has access to Ion weaponry, considering that the rebellion does, but the lack of ion use by imperials in the movies in situations where it would be recommended would seem to indicate that they are not in widespread use, or may be against doctrine, or may be used only for planetary defenses. I suppose that there may be an ion variant SD, considering we see about 4 different variants at the battle of Endor (default, SSD, comm ship, and a SD without a bottom hanger) but for the purposes of this debate, their possibility should probably be excluded.

[Mike DiCenso]

I was just thinking that if SDs had Ion guns, like what we see on Hoth (although presumably on a smaller scale) we would have expected to see them used on the Tantive IV to disable it (as opposed to risking complete destruction by using turbolasers) likewise for when Vader is trying to capture the even more fragile Millennium falcon. The fact that we never see this would seem to be a point of inconsistency with the earlier claim that SDs are armed with them.

That begs the question how would we know if a turbolaser versus an ion cannon is in use by any particular Star Wars vessel we see in the movies or TCW since the planetary ion cannon in TESB did not fire any bolts that looked any different from the red colored blaster and turbolaser bolts Rebel forces and other factions made use of. In fact, I would have to wonder about the whole color thing since we see either side has different weapon colors, yet they seem to be using the same technologies. Is this some weird ideological thing for SW political factions? Is there an advantage to using green, blue, or red TLs or other such weaponary?

At any rate, we have no way to tell what weapons are being used where, mainly because we are not privy to the actual orders being given by ship captains, like we are in Star Trek, where we hear Kirk or Picard calling "Fire phasers" and such that clearly tell us what weapons are being used and how. In fact, in TCW, even when we are privy to commanders' orders, they seldom specificy the type of weapon being used. Of course none of it is helped by the ion cannon being very similar in the appearance of it's bolts to blaster and turbolaser fire, complicating things even more.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I'll be doing a dedicated response once I have some more time, however some dimensions on that asteroid.

The beam (not counting the ambient light) is around 25-30 meters, the ambient light around said beam is actually closer to 80 meters, and the asteroid in that image is closer or on par to roughly 230-320 meters (give or take a few dozen meters in any direction). The victory fragments the asteroid with relatively little issue, although it does take her a moment (3 seconds of dedicated firing), and some drilling can be determined by the explosion of gas during the scene (released shortly after impact). The explosive nature of the final blast suggests that the beam imparts something exotic, rather than being a DET weapon, as it clearly isn't 'boring' through the asteroid, that or when shutting off the beam the energy currently 'drilling' through it looses some sort of 'containment' (possibly the ambient light that surrounds the beam) and suddenly expands in all directions.


I'd give the weapon a high variable output then, were talking... somewhere around 400-900 kilotons of potential power (which, again, considering that 2mt figure, makes it one of the single most powerful weapons in B5) depending on the composition and if it exploded from the inside or outside.


Anyway, I shall make anther post when I have some time to actually sit down, off to work with me.

The firing of the main gun against the asteroid can be seen in this video clip here at 2:30 to 2:37. The beam only takes about 2 seconds to destroy the asteroid, vaporizing a modest portion, and leaving some fragments. As for the scaling, the beam itself is actually quite a bit bigger than than Trinoya estimates. Given that a Victory class destroyer is nearly 3,000 meters long, the head of the main hull would be around 290. If only around 1/20th, then 145 meters. Given that the beam is much wider than the bow weapon section it is fired from, 200-250 meters is not unreasonable. The asteroid is about 3 times wider than the thickness of the beam or 600 meters, or about 216 kilotons to simply shatter the thing into 10 meter chunks. So that's actually a fairly conservative number given the variables involved, and we see some material disappearance or vaporization, which would up the numbers quite considerably by an easy order of magnitude, and quite likely much more.
-Mike

[User1555]

I'm pretty sure that the SD didn't use ion weapons on the Tantive IV, at the very least, because the shot that disables it seems to cause a bit of an explosion, while the one that took out the SD over hoth had a very different effect.

As for the color, I always interpreted Turbolasers as green, and blasters as red. Not quite sure what the official difference is. Probably just cosmetic.

[Mike DiCenso]

Green seems to indicate Empire, Red seems to equal Rebels, with the few exceptions such as hand carried blasters.
-Mike

[Trinoya]

I'll do a bigger post later, I was just curious as to what scaling you used mike. I got roughly nearly 1,900 meters in length for the victory, not 3,000, that was scaling off of the white star and Omega. The head of the victory seemed to work well as being roughly on par with the white star itself, giving me almost 479 meters (give or take a meter). The head itself being about as tall as a white star gave me 90 meters roughly (with some rounding).

I'll check my figures when I have some time against Jeff Russell's starship dimensions which admittedly I should have utilized from the start, I'll see if I'm truly off by roughly 1,000 meters as that would alter my calculation substantially for a lot of this and would put this more in B5's favor (although I already gave a generous amount due to the material disappearance in the asteroid so... more or less it will alter some OTHER figures, including ramming damage from the victory)