ISA forces sub at endor

[Admiral Breetai]

the Excalibur and 5 other victory class starships 15 warlocks and 15 Omegas backed up by 6 Minbari Sharlins 12 g'quan class cruisers and 12 of the brakiri vessels and about 70 Drazi sunhawks and a whitestar battle group consistent of about 7 WS's

Endor forces are on max alert ground troops consisting of humans Narns and Minbari are at Endor trying to blow the base lead by General Franklin -they notice they aren't rebels and vader orders the fleet not to fuck around but get ready for a fight

General Leftcourt and G'kar command the ISA forces

hows this end?

[Trinoya]

In Space:


Considering wookiepedia has it listed at 30+ SDs, and 1 SSD I'm gonna be conservative here and go with exactly 31 Star Destroyers and One Super Star Destroyer, + all associated fighter craft, and One fully armed and operational death star.


I find 72 starfighters per star destroyer, and the SSD could carry thousands but held roughly 144 or so for the battle (according to wookiepedia).. I'm gonna be generous and take half of that total for 1188 ties of various types... so lets divide that up into three grouping types for nearly 400 ties, tie interceptors, and tie bombers.

With those numbers I'm gonna safely presume that the B5 group bites it, and bites it bad. They have nothing to stand up against the death star, and even their biggest ships will be of little consequence against the star destroyers.

Ironically the smaller ships, such as the white stars, would fare much... much... better, being much more maneuverable and difficult to hit.

Oh yeah, and they have no clue of the death star weakness. That Super Laser is gonna ruin a lot of days.


On the Ground:

Babylon five curbstomps the empire. That armor that earth soldiers wear can take blasts that reduce humans to ash, narns and hella strong, and the Minbari are monsters when they fight on the ground.

Those poor poor storm troopers won't even know what hit them.

[Admiral Breetai]

errr five victories and those warlocks are gonna be ripping into the imps pretty badly the sharlins should as well though they're gonna get blasted into tiny pieces

whitestars and sunawks are not joke no freaken clue on the brakiri vessels but G'quan vessels are powerful enough to rip the spindles off shadow ships but are slow moving

as for not knowing we can assume they got the same intel on the DS akbar and mothma did other wise no poiint

victories main guns and the GOD canons on the warlock are going to be problematic

edit damn I had no clue EA armor was that good any source on it?

[Lucky]

You guys may want to keep in mind that while an SSD can carry X-amount of things, and may be designed to do so, there is evidence the Empire could not fully stock the SSDs.

SD and SSD are mostly empty space in the front. The areas that matter are the reactor, and bridge tower. The Empire might win simply because the other side is shooting in the wrong place. It seems like B5 cap ships tend to shoot the center of mass.^_^

[Admiral Breetai]

the emp might win by virtue of fielding effing bricks but all the same i thought i made a decent thread

[Trinoya]

I had a rather lengthy post written, but I've downsized it to focus a bit more and to simply state some fleet size facts. I decided rather than a langthy debate post that getting data and reaching a middle ground (or at least seeing where our points of contention may be) would be more focused.

So first some data on the numbers I'm operating with:



32 capital ships, one station for the emprie vs 143 capital ships for the alliance.


Fighters: I'm going to give the star destroyers half their compliment, and the death star a third of hers. Lets give the excutor 144 per the wookiepedia entry. This is a total of roughly 3588, with 1,196 fighters, interceptors, and bombers (presuming a perfect third for each).

Alliance Side: If I did my math correctly the alliance should have the following

118 Nials
70 Drazi Fighters
996 Thunderbolts
300 starfuries
120 Frazi Class Heavy Fighters*

*(I gave the narns 10 frazi fighters each, I was unable to find a solid figure upon them)


Now then: Some speculation.

Lets ignore the fighters for a moment and focus on just the capital ships for the next part.

Now: I'll ask you if you presume the following to be a fair assessment: Taking into account the 2 megaton vs a sharlin attack, and going with a conservative low ball estimate of 1.5 megatons for an HTL, can we presume 2 HTL kills per star destroyer for every five minutes, that's presuming one kill per side of the SD, is fair? Furthermore, I'll extend that figure onto the SSD and the death star (since the super laser could get two kills in five minutes as well). This naturally ignores all other weapons of the star destroyers, but I'm willing to do that.

Moving on: Do you think 1 star destroyer destroyed every five minutes for every 10 ships in the alliance fleet is a fair estimate? I base that again on the fact that they clearly aren't lobbing megaton grade level weapons at one another and I think this is a reasonable assumption against a star destroyer based on the 200 megawatts statement for what is clearly anti-capital ship weaponry.


All the above is speculative of course, I'm just curious as to what you believe the capabilities are... I'm operating under luckys estimates from this thread

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =12&t=1882

For babylon five (based on the 200 megawatt data)

And I'm using ST-v-SW.net for conservative fire power figures for the HTLs of the star destroyer.

I'm more than willing to compare and contrast however, what is your preferred speculation, since we know mine now, and you seem like the reasonable sort. If there is a major disagreement on the numbers then we can start to focus in more on say, weapon and armor figures for both.


Moving on:

The insane ground weapon feat is demonstrated in season 1, episode 4, infection. You see the alien artifact weapon (which is supposeldy just going to keep getting more powerful) reduce several people to ash, and leaving shadows against the wall behind them. Later on Sinclairs armor is struck by the same weapon and it absorbs/deflects the energy (and I'd go with the later), although admittedly he is thrown back by the blast a bit.

You can find the episode here I believe:

http://www.thewb.com/shows/babylon-5/in ... 81b64dcfc0

[Admiral Breetai]

I had a rather lengthy post written, but I've downsized it to focus a bit more and to simply state some fleet size facts. I decided rather than a langthy debate post that getting data and reaching a middle ground (or at least seeing where our points of contention may be) would be more focused

either way is fine your one the ones who post rarely but who´s opinion I look forward too the most in my threads

So first some data on the numbers I'm operating with:



32 capital ships, one station for the emprie vs 143 capital ships for the alliance.

the numbers edge belies the durability and size of the other side of course lol

Fighters: I'm going to give the star destroyers half their compliment, and the death star a third of hers. Lets give the excutor 144 per the wookiepedia entry. This is a total of roughly 3588, with 1,196 fighters, interceptors, and bombers (presuming a perfect third for each).

Alliance Side: If I did my math correctly the alliance should have the following

118 Nials
70 Drazi Fighters
996 Thunderbolts
300 starfuries
120 Frazi Class Heavy Fighters*

*(I gave the narns 10 frazi fighters each, I was unable to find a solid figure upon them)

the problem is going to be the nials and thunderbolts Nials have a stealth field that´s no joke and slaughter more than their weight in enemy fighters usualy and SF´s tend to have better manuverability than I recall in the films

I´m not actually sure if G´quans field fighters honestly

[

Now then: Some speculation.

Lets ignore the fighters for a moment and focus on just the capital ships for the next part.

alright

Now: I'll ask you if you presume the following to be a fair assessment: Taking into account the 2 megaton vs a sharlin attack, and going with a conservative low ball estimate of 1.5 megatons for an HTL, can we presume 2 HTL kills per star destroyer for every five minutes, that's presuming one kill per side of the SD, is fair?

I think the fire power figure per HTL is prolly around there but higher I´m in the camp that puts SW closer to B5 than ST though a notch higher over all

The figure is good for Minbari ships only and I´m assuming your ignoring the stealth field then again with the sheer amounts of guns an ISD has somethings gonna hit regardless no? it´s actually more generous than I´d give Sharlins they have very powerful guns but shitty armor I mean daayyum

but your figure is only valid for the Minbari EA ships are incredibly tough and Victories are monsters that are capable of sustaining fire even after half the ship has been blasted off they also have an enormous amount of guns on them iirc Narn ships are also very tough but their main guns are their biggest assets Brakiri ships are basically fiber glass chasis with a fast engine and medium quality guns Drazi ships are likely weaker in terms of armor than anything but Brakiri but are very fast and have some nasty weapons if memory serves

basically half the fleet is made of glass the rest are essentially floating bricks six of which come from a class that was shown to be able to withstand monstrous punishment

so while I agree a good chunk of the fleet will likely not be able to survive very long trading blows with ISDs the humans and Narn certainly should be able to take a beating

sunhawks and whitestars being sleak and swift are going to be a problem

Furthermore, I'll extend that figure onto the SSD and the death star (since the super laser could get two kills in five minutes as well). This naturally ignores all other weapons of the star destroyers, but I'm willing to do that.

they have other weapons? i wasn´t aware of anything beyond missiles and various caliber TLs in the films-tv shows

[

Moving on: Do you think 1 star destroyer destroyed every five minutes for every 10 ships in the alliance fleet is a fair estimate? I base that again on the fact that they clearly aren't lobbing megaton grade level weapons at one another and I think this is a reasonable assumption against a star destroyer based on the 200 megawatts statement for what is clearly anti-capital ship weaponry.

they aren´t JMS pretty much said if the Minbari stealth field gt cracked by the EA they´d be one shotting their vessels left and right...and other races certainly can trade and endure hellatious abuse

I can´t say one way or the other for sure but every one likes to use the blackstar as an example but even within universe we´ve seen far better and its a known fact that Minbari guns are devastating their range is obscene and their stealth field saves them

]All the above is speculative of course, I'm just curious as to what you believe the capabilities are... I'm operating under luckys estimates from this thread

I´d think four on one odds for the minbari with it likely being a double take down against an ISD victories being either one on one or two on one Warlocks in backs of four omegas the same and´G´quans likely requiring back up from other ships to survive long enough to get their guns kicking in but with same some whitestars or sunhawks as back or something

for the SSD it´d have give good odds on two vics three warlocks and back up from all the remaining lighter assets

I think the human and nial fighters help out as well they´d likely pulp ties

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =12&t=1882

For babylon five (based on the 200 megawatt data)

he´s good peeps but he low balls b5 a bit a tiny bit I´ve felt not by that much though

And I'm using ST-v-SW.net for conservative fire power figures for the HTLs of the star destroyer.

I'm more than willing to compare and contrast however, what is your preferred speculation, since we know mine now, and you seem like the reasonable sort. If there is a major disagreement on the numbers then we can start to focus in more on say, weapon and armor figures for both.

I think you have a good figure going my only issue was with using minbari ships as a bases for durability feats for vessels is all

Moving on:

The insane ground weapon feat is demonstrated in season 1, episode 4, infection. You see the alien artifact weapon (which is supposeldy just going to keep getting more powerful) reduce several people to ash, and leaving shadows against the wall behind them. Later on Sinclairs armor is struck by the same weapon and it absorbs/deflects the energy (and I'd go with the later), although admittedly he is thrown back by the blast a bit.

You can find the episode here I believe:

http://www.thewb.com/shows/babylon-5/in ... 81b64dcfc0

that´s wow so you think they have good odds on taking down the shield damn

[User1555]

Considering that Victory class ships can fire once a minute, I'd expect about 5 dead star destroyers per minute, and one dead ISA ship per however long it takes the DS to recharge.
Honestly, I'm not really sure how powerful Warlocks are, I never watched that movie, but I presume that they are better then Omegas, having artificial gravity and gravitic engines, and possible shadow technology.

The Sharlins and G'Quans both have considerable long-range firepower and carry compliments of fighters. The Sharlins have stealth technology, which will probably keep the deathstar off their backs, but their main concern will likely be keeping the TIEs off, although they seem capable of using beam weapons on fighters as well as larger ships.

The Brakiri ships are going to die horribly. They appear to be less durable then Sunhawks (we see both of them take hits from Vorchans, and the Sunhawks seem to be rather durable, wheras the Brakiri ships get torn to pieces) I don't know how powerful their weapons are, considering they never seem to last long enough on screen to fire them, but at the very least they can draw fire away from more important ships. Honestly, I would rather have two vorchans then a dozen Brakiri ships.

There are at least three variants of Sunhawk. Depending on the variant, they could have gravitic drives, and/or may have a single sky serpent fighter docked with them. Each Sunhawk can also carry at least two long range missiles.

Whitestars are nice, but their relatively low numbers means they likely won't be as important to the outcome of the battle as the sunhawks. Each Whitestar can carry four nials, presumably piloted by rangers.

Order of Battle? Death Star fires up and blasts one of the ISA ships, probably a Victory class, and the victory classes open fire destroying as many SDs as there are victory classes left (5-6 depending if they get the first shot off) All ISA ships and Imperial ship will launch fighters. G'Quans will open fire with energy mines on the TIEs, which will likely be devastating, Sunhawks open fire with a total of 140 long range missiles,the rest of the ISA ships open fire with long-range beam weapons on the SDs and SSD. Omegas and Warlocks will take up the front line, as they have the best armor. The Remaining Victories will likely advance to avoid getting blasted by the DS. SDs will screen the SSD to protect it from incoming fire.

Remaining TIEs and SDs advance to close with the more fragile ISA ships. ISA fighters advance to meet them, Sunhawks and Whitestars follow suit. Rest stay behind to provide ranged support while the Omegas/Warlocks follow suit while also shooting down TIEs that try to get to the Sharlins etc.

ISA will probably have fighter superiority at this point thanks to the energy mines and general superiority of their fighters, it will only be a matter of time before the Imperial fleet is defeated.

On the ground, the ISA soldiers will likely not recruit the Ewoks, as they lack C3P0, but their superior weapons, armor, and training will likely even the odds. Vader could possibly swing it back in favor of the Imperials if he is on the ground (since Luke won't be around to get him on the death star)

I'd say a likely ISA victory-the energy mines of the G'Quans and the Victorys will be a real pain in the rear for the TIEs and SDs respectively. The Imperials will have to close with the ISA fleet to be effective, as the ISA fleet can just sit back and shoot them from outside of the SDs effective range. Definitely a bad situation for the Imperials, but they might win if the SDs go against orders and charge the ISA instead of going with the plan they used against the rebels and hold back.

Assuming that the Victories stay away from the SDs, it would take 15 minutes to kill off the Victories using the DS using the 2 shots per 5 minutes figure, during which time they would get off 27 shots (assuming simultaneous fire). That is a lot of firepower for those SDs to deal with.

[Admiral Breetai]

Warlocks are durable enough to take multiple main gun shots from vorchans with out exploding the same guns that can tear a whitestar to pieces and rip a g'quan in half in two or three shots

they are slow moving as fuck though from on screen evidence but their main weapons are the same orbital particle canons clark was gonna use to burn the surface of the US

basically their slow moving god canons with secondary missile batteries that hurl off low caliber nukes

ISDs can likely take the missile fire all day and suffer moderate damage but those main guns? i doubt it

[User1356]

Behold the awe inspiring power of the victory's main gun

[Trinoya]

I'll be doing a dedicated response once I have some more time, however some dimensions on that asteroid.

The beam (not counting the ambient light) is around 25-30 meters, the ambient light around said beam is actually closer to 80 meters, and the asteroid in that image is closer or on par to roughly 230-320 meters (give or take a few dozen meters in any direction). The victory fragments the asteroid with relatively little issue, although it does take her a moment (3 seconds of dedicated firing), and some drilling can be determined by the explosion of gas during the scene (released shortly after impact). The explosive nature of the final blast suggests that the beam imparts something exotic, rather than being a DET weapon, as it clearly isn't 'boring' through the asteroid, that or when shutting off the beam the energy currently 'drilling' through it looses some sort of 'containment' (possibly the ambient light that surrounds the beam) and suddenly expands in all directions.


I'd give the weapon a high variable output then, were talking... somewhere around 400-900 kilotons of potential power (which, again, considering that 2mt figure, makes it one of the single most powerful weapons in B5) depending on the composition and if it exploded from the inside or outside.


Anyway, I shall make anther post when I have some time to actually sit down, off to work with me.

[User1356]

You are far too generous, Babtech concluded the asteroid shattered and was around 100 kilotons output IIRC

[Admiral Breetai]

yeah I was never too impressed with the victories main guns either..mind you in terms of fire power wars movies never impressed over much beyond the volume of guns and of course the DS

it's hardly the most powerful display of fire power in b5 though I have no clue where you got that...it certainly is impressive by YR standards but in one ep a shadow ship drilled deep enough to cause volcanic activity seen from orbit for example

[User1555]

Bab Tech makes a lot of assumptions. The thickness and composition of Omega armor, for one, seems to be based entirely off of that of modern destroyers, instead of information from the show. Any information on Vorlon Planet Killers is even worse, ignoring the fact that in one scene we actually see the planet killer flying through the debris field from a plant because of technical quibbles, although no-one questions the validity of the death star blowing up a planet and leaving similar remnants behind. Considering that the site is a collaboration between the wonderfully unbiased folks over at SD.net, I would take Bab Tech with about as much salt as any figures they give for the firepower of ST.

[Trinoya]

I disagree with their assessment is all, and that's largely because of material disappearance.


Moving on:

either way is fine your one the ones who post rarely but who´s opinion I look forward too the most in my threads

Daww.. you're gonna make me blush in front of everyone... =^_^=

the problem is going to be the nials and thunderbolts Nials have a stealth field that´s no joke and slaughter more than their weight in enemy fighters usualy and SF´s tend to have better manuverability than I recall in the films

I´m not actually sure if G´quans field fighters honestly

Oh, pound for pound the Nials should be able to slaughter twice their number, the thunderbolts I agree should be no slouches either.

However I think the sheer overwhelming fighter opposition, which was determined using a very conservative figure, should allow for a substantial number of tie bombers to get through and to the weaker capital ships.

I seem to remember a G'quan launching a fighter in the show, but I can double check at my earliest convenience.

I think the fire power figure per HTL is prolly around there but higher I´m in the camp that puts SW closer to B5 than ST though a notch higher over all

So shall we agree 2 megatons then? I think 1.5 is more fair based on total firepower out put, although the fact that the battery does not represent a single gun, but instead several, the output is of course higher per grouping.

The figure is good for Minbari ships only and I´m assuming your ignoring the stealth field then again with the sheer amounts of guns an ISD has somethings gonna hit regardless no? it´s actually more generous than I´d give Sharlins they have very powerful guns but shitty armor I mean daayyum

While I will admit it'
s a primary figure for a minbari ship, we must also account that it only absorbed a fraction of the two megatons, and that this is a ship of the line.

However: I will be willing to give a slightly higher rating over all to the warlocks at the very least, they are 20 years ahead of the previous design, and the omegas rarely 'die' so much as they rapidly decompress all decks and flood the remaining with flames.

Still: The gaping hangers are massive weak points in many of these ships, and we've seen the effects of low speed ramming on several of these vessels. I wouldn't give their armor rating the highest in the world. I'll see about digging out some figures for the Omega/Omega Ram, the White Star Omega Ram, and the Omega Satellite Ram.

Most of the smaller ships are not known for being the best armored in the series (although the white stars are a reasonable exception, having taken hits from battlecrabs), we've seen the main firepower capability of a centuri warship against a small starfurry and the blow didn't kill the starfurry so much as it did a small bit of damage and then sent it on her way. It keeps in well with the rapid fire capabilities of the weapons and the 200 megawatt figure I think to rate certainly the older ships armor as being relatively inferior (the warlocks may prove more substantial than the others).

On a side note: The Bakari ships double as passenger liners, I don't t think they will play that important a role in the battle since they aren't purpose built warships.

As for the Victories: Their biggest advantage is the stated 80% energy absorption/deflection, something none of the other ships come close too... and while powerful and impressive, they still suffer from that 'dedicated forward firing arc' that everyone but the humans seem to enjoy so much (Hell, we see omegas have rear firing primary weapons even). In this battle that fire arc coverage that that star destroyers have is going to mean that the Omegas and Warlocks are going to really have to pick up the slack taking the brunt of the fire... and if we presume more than just the HTLs are firing we will be seeing substantially more casualties amongst most of the other ships, save for the victories and the white stars.

I always found it ironic that the humans were the race that chose to focus on having dedicated 360 degree firing arcs (and even main weapons mounted to the rear). The shadows demonstrate pretty effectively that attacking from other angles or in new and unusual fire arcs was pretty devastating to the bulk of the younger races (to say nothing of their amazing accuracy compared to everyone else).

Beyond that I can agree with the bulk of your ship assessments... I just question if the 30 bricks and the 6 super bricks are going to hold up as well to the dozens of turbolasers per star destroyer and the super laser long enough to protect the rest of the fleet. It doesn't help that they won't have initial fighter superior due to the numbers involved, allowing the bombers to get through, to say nothing of the superior fighter acceleration witnessed in starwars which will allow them to escape imminent death, as well as dictate a heavy segment of the engagement against capital ships, rather than in the no mans land between them.


I agree that the swiftness of the white stars and the sunhawks will be an issue, but the sunhawks biggest contribution is a dedicated heavy long term combatant fighter craft, and the sunhawks may be better suited to providing cover against the fighter attacks.

The White Stars, however, can not afford to not be involved in active battle, especially against the SSD, which must be dealt with quickly, it's bigger with babylon five with hundreds of more weapons, and dedicated sectional shields. Even if all the victories shot at her I doubt it'd be enough to bring her down in the first volley, and that's a full minute of no victory assisting. I actually think the victories would be better suited to busting the shields of the star destroyers, six for the first volley, which will give a substantial early gain to the warlocks and omegas... and if they are lucky they'll blast a few fighter squads in the process.

they have other weapons? i wasn´t aware of anything beyond missiles and various caliber TLs in the films-tv shows

They also sport Ion Cannons to disable enemy ships.

I can´t say one way or the other for sure but every one likes to use the blackstar as an example but even within universe we´ve seen far better and its a known fact that Minbari guns are devastating their range is obscene and their stealth field saves them

The large issue is we only have a few other major statements, including that the victories main gun can pretty much one shot any of those older ships. We've seen battlecrabs cut through with relative ease on most of the younger ships, which gives us an important look at the thickness of their armor, and we know that the innards of those launch bays are very weak.

A friend of mine actually put it very well: The hard thing in babylon five is hitting a target, not damaging it. Once you can focus continual fire pretty much any ship in that verse goes down, because they all don't have perfect full armor coverage (well, save for the victories, which are just insane with 80% total energy deflection). It's less about the fact that they can take those hits and more about the consequences of doing so. We have numerous cases of reactors going critical, life support systems failing, and entire ships rendered incapable in less than five-ten minutes of battle and being forced to ram.

When they start to deal with the heavy fire that those star destroys are going to be churning out, and the fact that lucky shots with HTLs are mission kills to the weaker armored ships (and I'm actually watching a video right now. I'll actually say 2-4 HTL hits for those omegas and warlocks, the white star ramming isn't as devastating as I remembered, and more importantly they can turn to keep their armor facing). To sum it up: One of the reasons the shadows were so effective (and the white stars) was because they weren't just fast, they were accurate to boot.

Other universes that demonstrate reasonable decent range accuracy (ANH star destroyer chase scene) will be able to devastate their target, and the bulk of TLs may very well make up for some of the poor marksmanship. This is to say nothing for the extreme accuracy of the death star (who should be focused primarily on the victories the entire fight).

I´d think four on one odds for the minbari with it likely being a double take down against an ISD victories being either one on one or two on one Warlocks in backs of four omegas the same and´G´quans likely requiring back up from other ships to survive long enough to get their guns kicking in but with same some whitestars or sunhawks as back or something

I'll give you four on one odds for the sharlins against a SD due to the stealth field.

One on One for the warlocks may be a bit generous, but we have limited data on the warlocks due to their short lived existence in the series (and I don't feel like digging up the books) so considering it's an upgraded designed I'll give it one - one odds.

Omegas at four - 1 I'll give.

G'quans I'm gonna say 6-1 due to poor firing arcs and no stealth field.

I still think those sun hawks are gonna be much more important on fighter defense than attacking main stream ships, same for the Bakari... protecting those victories is the key to winning the battle after all.

for the SSD it´d have give good odds on two vics three warlocks and back up from all the remaining lighter assets

The largest problem with this abasement is that the victories still will have to use their main guns to do enough damage to both the shields and the hull... and they are going to loose a victory in the opening seconds of the battle. The SSD is deadly to be sure, and it needs to be focused upon but those main cannons can do a lot more damage as shield busting weapons.

Furthermore: I'm gonna say you're not gonna want the slower ships to deal with the SSD, white stars and fighter craft need to really focus on her. Were talking 2000 HTLs, 2000 MTLS, 250 Ion cannons, 500 point defense weapons 250 missile batteries, and 40 tractor beams... Anything that gets close to her and can't move isn't going to last more than a few mere seconds.

that´s wow so you think they have good odds on taking down the shield damn

Absolutely. Only the narns were shown to be truly incompetent in ground combat (literally charging into the guns), and those weren't, we can presume, dedicated ground combat forces, but rather whoever G'kar rounded up... the short of it is that armor is gonna be murder on the empires 'most elite' forces.



Moving forward a bit:

If we presume the total destruction of the imperial forces is the goal then the running charge made into the star destroyers must be made, we can also presume the star destroyers, knowing of the impending battle, are going to move away from 'trap' and more into 'defense,' position their own lines between the death star and the incoming forces as best they can.


The Imperial fighters hold a massive acceleration advantage (although its the only advantage they hold) and should be kept first as rapid response to the engaging alliance fleet.

The alliance fleet will concentrate it's jumps like most B5 forces, to several ships per jump point. They should be jumping beyond the initial range of the star destroyers, giving them time to form up and launch fighters. For simplicity sake the death star holds fire until it knows which ships (the victories) to target.


The total elimination of the death star requires the fighters to make it not just past the star destroyers but also past the ties and then the death star defenses. This is going to require ship support to keep the SDs off of their fighters, furthermore the death star is going to force a close range engagement just as it did in ROTJ.

To this end the Warlocks, Omegas, and G'quans must engage the star destroyers. The Sharlins and the White stars should focus their strengths are moving towards the death star or focusing fire on the SSD, one or the other.

If the fighters are supported they can then attempt the attack run on the death star, but they will be at a disadvantage. Babylon Five fighters do not do the crazy moves shown in the death star tunnels and those tie fighters did... meanwhile the large number of bombers is still going to require a considerable force to run cover against (using the Bakari and the Sunhawks for cover will mitigate this to some extent).

If the Victories are used to shield bust 6 ISDs at the start this will give considerable advantage, rather than focusing their fire on a less functional target (such as the SSD or the Death Star). The Shield systems are going to give incredible staying power against the enemy vessels. We've seen the younger races deal with dedicated shielded aliens (third space) in which the exchange was costing them white stars against the fighters (much less the enemy capital ships). If we deduce only a minor armor advantage (and I'd be more wiling to give a considerable advantage) to the SW forces those shields will give them the staying power to win against numerous enemy vessels.

Using that staggered style of strategy to support the fighter attack on the death star should prove to be their most effective gambit.

Theoretically, of course, this presumes they can even attack the imperial fleet or the death star at the beginning of the battle. If I was vadar I would move the fleet behind the shield as soon as I knew the rebels weren't coming. While I do give a victory on the ground to the B5 forces, said forces will still have to actually conduct their ground operations. Since the endor ground forces seem to be taken a bit by surprise this time around I'm gonna say the shield goes down in half as much time as originally.


Finally: Battle meditation from the Emperor is going to be a considerable factor.


My opinion still is the final result is a relatively decided victory for the empire in the sky, subsequently ruined entirely when IG-88 blows up the imperial battlefleet and then Endor for good measure. ^_^ (heh, expanded universe is crazy sometimes).

However: I'll give it a closer out come. I'll presume 50-60% casualties for the Empire, rather than my original opinion, which was closer to 30-40%. I still think the alliance forces will be forced into retreat before the battle is over, rather than loose all six victories. The Empire, of course, has no choice but to fight to the last. If the Alliance forces can't topple the imperial fleet when they've taken about 50% casualties... they will scrap the operation.


So to summarize:

Ground forces on endor are taken by surprise, a defense is established, vadar is notified.

Vadar moves the fleet behind the shield and prepares for the attack.

Alliance forces jump in. Vadars fleet positions themselves between the death star proper and them.

Fighters and ships advance, hoping the shields will be down.

Victories and other ships enter range and open fire, failing to damage in the first wave due to the shield. Victories fire their main cannons to no effect against the shield.

Death star returns fire against a victory.

Franklin reports that he is almost done with the battle, he needs only enough time to blow the generator.

Ships prepare for attack, shield generator falls.

Death star fires its second shot. A group of ships shielding the Victories (lets say two sun hawks and a Bakiri) bite it.

Five victories open fire, warlocks and omegas charge forward. Sharlins and White Stars attempt to flank the fleet. White Stars break off to support a fighter attack on the SSD.

The star destroyers struck by the victories are downed in short order. However, the full minute recharge gives the remaining 26 star destroyers ample time to open fire on the fleet. Distances are closed on both sides to better support fighter operations. The Alliance fleet closes to help protect against the death star.

The G'quans suffer heavy losses, omegas and warlocks suffer light losses. Tie bombers break through the fighter screens by weight of numbers. Interceptors pull back to defend the death star against attack.

The first run on the death star begins. Starfurries remain behind to hinder the SSD, The Nials and Thunderbolts attempt to make it to the target destination.

First wave is stopped with heavy sacrifices from the tie interceptors.

First Sharlins break through to support operations against the death star. Second fighter attack is launched, thunderbolts decide to cover the Nials, who are more maneuverable.

Death star has attacked several more times, victories have attacked several more times.

Death Star may or may not die in the attack. Tie fighters will be too busy assisting the executor. Emperor evacuates the death star to be safe.



Going from this: I think the best outcome the Alliance can hope for is to inflict 50% casualties to the Imperial forces, with a good possibility of destroying the death star if they are willing to sacrifice the ships to do so.

However: i think the casualties inflicted will make it a less substantial victory. Forces will be forced to retreat, pick up ground troops, and jump to safety.

Battle we could presume a battle length between 15-30 minutes, depending on just how much in the way of losses the Alliance is willing to take. 40% losses is an extreme number of people killed... loosing on average three victories may be unacceptable.

Further analysis can not be done till I know the degree of dedication to the attack. If they are very dedicated (IE: All or nothing) They may just ram the SSD to death, which will turn the battle in their favor if they still have the bulk of the victories remaining. If we presume they operate like most militaries, high end KIA figures won't be good, not to mention the resources lost.

though to be fair, they'd most likely be walking away with nearly no casualties on the ground, with nearly the entire storm trooper garrison either killed or in hiding (presuming no vadar on the ground, and instead on the Executor).


That was a bit more long winded then I wanted and not as concise as I had hoped, but I had an Osama Party last night so forgive me, kinda tired. ^_^