Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by User1356 » Sat May 21, 2011 4:36 pm

Oh the comedy........

No wonder anyone takes anything said here seriously

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat May 21, 2011 5:40 pm

InvaderSkooj wrote:Oh the comedy........

No wonder anyone takes anything said here seriously
Is this really all you do here?.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat May 21, 2011 6:21 pm

Trinoya wrote:Seesh... SWST I do wonder sometimes if you understand what some people write.



The fact of the matter is that their are races in star trek capable of defeating a single culture vessel, and not all of 'em have to use time travel to do it. Here is a short list for you.

Whatever race that created The Guardian of Forever (I mean hell, the Iconians made portals for instantaneous travel anywhere.. but these people did it for any time to boot...)

The Ancient Humanoids, who, being alone in the universe, created every known humanoid in the entire trek galaxy some 4.5 billion years before the events of the show.

Devidians, out of phase with the rest of reality.

Dowd: As I said before, not omnipotent, just incredibly powerful.

Iconians: The iconians once ruled a portion of the galaxy and had achieved instantaneous travel anywhere. Their structures still stand thousands of years after their demise, as do their booby traps. One can only speculate on what else they were capable of, but it's a pretty high end feat to just be able to move anything anywhere whenever you want.

Metrons: Not omnipotent, just incredibly powerful.

Ocampa (full awakened of course), capable of telling the laws of physics to go fuck themselves with but a thought. More than capable of screwing with reality below the atomic level.

Organian: The demonstrated powers of the Organians are quite impressive, not to mention an to inhabit a host body and naturally bring the dead back to life without any difficulty.

Species 8472. While a culture ship would make mence meat out of the bioships, their ability to strike without reprisal means they will eventually win, they do possess the demonstrated fire power to harm a culture ship.

Sphere Builders: Extra dimensional beings capable of creating technology that litterally alters the laws of physics of our universe.

Tkon Empire: Supposedly one of the most powerful races to exist in trek. Their abilities included the capability to move entire star systems around.

Vger: V'ger is what culture ships want to be when they grow up... although i'll concede that V'ger would have no interest in the culture ship at all, save for adding it to its memory banks.




As I said before: There are so many 'uber races' in trek that most of the non uber races should be thankful ever second they aren't blinked out of existence by accident. Trying to treat all the races in star trek as being only as powerful as the federation is laughable and just plain stupid. All that would have to occur to meet your guidelines is to make sure none of these races are actually 'gods' by the definition as we understand it (that is to say, not all powerful omnipotent).



One Culture ship simply isn't going to be enough to deal with them... in some of the above cases I'm sure that it would give them a run for their money.. hell in some of the cases we may even have to question if the race would or could fight the culture in the first place, but we do have races with sufficently high end feats for us to say, "yeah.. odds are they could do it."


The moment we go to time travel mode.. well... reliable time travel is apparently not a particularly difficult task in the trek universe where things like 'anti-time' exist. Needless to say the list would increase... there is sadly one fatal flaw the culture ship must deal with.

It isn't perfect, and it can't be every single place at once.
I am with you on some of those but others i think lack detail enough to make any definitive claims.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by General Donner » Sat May 21, 2011 6:48 pm

Trinoya wrote:Vger: V'ger is what culture ships want to be when they grow up... although i'll concede that V'ger would have no interest in the culture ship at all, save for adding it to its memory banks.
What did Voyager ever do that would impress a Culture ship?

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat May 21, 2011 6:59 pm

General Donner wrote:
Trinoya wrote:Vger: V'ger is what culture ships want to be when they grow up... although i'll concede that V'ger would have no interest in the culture ship at all, save for adding it to its memory banks.
What did Voyager ever do that would impress a Culture ship?
He means V'ger from ST:TMP not voyager if that is what you think.


V'ger's energy field alone was 82AU in diameter.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun May 22, 2011 7:01 pm

InvaderSkooj wrote:Oh the comedy........

No wonder anyone takes anything said here seriously
Knock it off with the snipping. If you cannot participate in the thread properly, then don't do so at all. This is your first and last "friendly" warning.
-Mike

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun May 22, 2011 11:57 pm

General Donner wrote:
Trinoya wrote:Vger: V'ger is what culture ships want to be when they grow up... although i'll concede that V'ger would have no interest in the culture ship at all, save for adding it to its memory banks.
What did Voyager ever do that would impress a Culture ship?
Carry Janeway on board for several years without the local AI going rampant ?

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Mon May 23, 2011 1:52 am

Trinoya:

Your examples fall into separate categories.

Uber powerful with a gimmick - sure, the iconians have insta gateway travel, but they do not exist anymore at the specified time period, and there is no information as to their other tech capabilities.

Vaguely powerful - oh, they're not omnipotent, just very powerful! So are the Culture, what's your point?

Effectively omnipotent - I ruled out both omnipotents and nigh omnipotents in this thread. A species that can mess with physics and manipulate reality is effectively omnipotent.

Ridiculous - what is species 8472 going to do to a Culture GSV that can hide in hyperspace while sniping millions of species 8472 bioshops with planet busting CAM missiles in the course of a microsecond? We don't know how many 8472 ships there are, but a Culture GSV can destroy billions of them in a matter of seconds from light years away.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Trinoya » Mon May 23, 2011 5:09 am

Mmm.. some of those species have technologies that still take some time to reach their target and deliver their effects.
Take S8472. If Culture GSVs, or the specialized and smaller warships like ROUs and else can think in microseconds, behave in microseconds and win battles over multiple light years in microseconds, etc. How can the S8472 ever hope hitting them?
It's more the capability to not deal with reprisal on their home terf that gives them a chance to defeat the culture ship. That and they were apparently able to get enough real time data on earth (down to genetic codes) to duplicate starfleet academy pretty effortlessly. I'd say they are capable of spying on our own little universe and picking the time and place of the battle.
Trinoya:

Your examples fall into separate categories.

Uber powerful with a gimmick - sure, the iconians have insta gateway travel, but they do not exist anymore at the specified time period, and there is no information as to their other tech capabilities.
The Iconian virus, if it exists on any of their other worlds, requires all systems it encounters to be shut down and wiped to prevent the ship from exploding. It's the only way to deal with it. The culture AIs would be screwed. Nonetheless I'll give you that they don't exist technically.
Vaguely powerful - oh, they're not omnipotent, just very powerful! So are the Culture, what's your point?
The point is that they could defeat a single culture vessel, what was so hard to understand about that?
Effectively omnipotent - I ruled out both omnipotents and nigh omnipotents in this thread. A species that can mess with physics and manipulate reality is effectively omnipotent.
I put not effectively omnipotents in my post. You could claim that they are just 'very very powerful" and that that distinction makes them 'omnipotent' but you then invalidate your own thread, as I said before, because you would then be, by your definition, having a non omnipotent force (Anyone you think is too powerful) fighting an omnipotent force (the culture who by your definition could be construed as omnipotent).

Just because you don't like the fact that there are people who can THINK the culture away through unknown means (people who are incapable of bring life back to the dead, so they are not all powerful, people who are not capable of understanding the ramifications of their actions prior to performing them, so they are not all knowning) doesn't make them any less a possiblity.


Ridiculous - what is species 8472 going to do to a Culture GSV that can hide in hyperspace while sniping millions of species 8472 bioships with planet busting CAM missiles in the course of a microsecond? We don't know how many 8472 ships there are, but a Culture GSV can destroy billions of them in a matter of seconds from light years away.
As I said before 8472 has the capability to ESCAPE the culture and choose the time and place of their attack, and they have the demonstrated fire power to hurt it. Meaning numbers + time + learning = victory sooner or later... it could take them 1000 years, or it could take them a million tries, but sooner or later they'd succeed due to sheer probability.



Just to reiterate to other people reading this thread so I can drive these points HOME, especially to the folks at some other forums.


The federation, without all of its techs of the week AND prior notice, as well as an extreme healthy dose of luck, is completely incapable of defeating the culture ship, is up shits creek, and would be lucky if an atom remained in place. The majority of the ST races fall into this category.

There are, however, a few NON omnipotents who are powerful enough to do so in ST, for the most specific example, the Douwd.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by General Donner » Tue May 24, 2011 1:02 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:He means V'ger from ST:TMP not voyager if that is what you think.


V'ger's energy field alone was 82AU in diameter.
Voyager or Vee-ger, it's the same ship I was thinking about. ;)

Still I don't see why it would scare a Culture ship. IIRC it was implied it could destroy Earth, but so can any Culture ship easily. And it had no equivalent of effectors or all there other wanktech.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 24, 2011 1:09 pm

General Donner wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:He means V'ger from ST:TMP not voyager if that is what you think.


V'ger's energy field alone was 82AU in diameter.
Voyager or Vee-ger, it's the same ship I was thinking about. ;)

Still I don't see why it would scare a Culture ship. IIRC it was implied it could destroy Earth, but so can any Culture ship easily. And it had no equivalent of effectors or all there other wanktech.
Destroying earth was hardly its high end ability and as i mentioned its energ field was 12th power energy and spread out over a diameter of 82AU so if we use the inverse square law the power generation is far beyond all but godlike.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by General Donner » Tue May 24, 2011 1:25 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Destroying earth was hardly its high end ability and as i mentioned its energ field was 12th power energy and spread out over a diameter of 82AU so if we use the inverse square law the power generation is far beyond all but godlike.
Memory Alpha says two AU.

Anyway, since both "energy cloud" and "12th power" are obvious technobabble, I'd be wary of applying something like real physics to it to extrapolate its capabilities in that manner.

And it still has nothing to indicate it can resist Culture effectors, teleported munitions, pancakers ...

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue May 24, 2011 4:48 pm

General Donner wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Destroying earth was hardly its high end ability and as i mentioned its energ field was 12th power energy and spread out over a diameter of 82AU so if we use the inverse square law the power generation is far beyond all but godlike.
Memory Alpha says two AU.

Anyway, since both "energy cloud" and "12th power" are obvious technobabble, I'd be wary of applying something like real physics to it to extrapolate its capabilities in that manner.
The original movie said 82AU, but even at 2 it makes any planetary shield look like a bubble blown by a child by comparison.

Virtually everything is technobabble as its sci-fi but when has that stopped us quantifying it.
And it still has nothing to indicate it can resist Culture effectors, teleported munitions, pancakers ...
Actually nothing has been shown that they can do jack against it, V'ger came home because it had reached the limit of knowledge in the universe in regards to pure science, the whole "learn all that is learnable, know all that is knowable".

It was one step away from being a godlike being and the human element to see past logic allowed that.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed May 25, 2011 4:06 pm

What I'll say for the moment is if you can put your hand on Excession, and put the quotation at the end of page 1 back into its context, you'll end seeing some essential contradictions between the capabilities of GSVs or ROUs and the idea that Killing Time's engagement could have lasted 11 real/continuous microseconds.
Clues: weapon ranges, FTL speeds, use of missiles and position of the four waves of ships in 3D space.

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Re: Culture GSV vs Star Trek galaxy

Post by User1659 » Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:39 am

Sorry just came across this, had to comment.

could I add my $1 worth.

This thing to remember about Banks Culture ships is, they are smart very very very smart.
Some here he said IQs in the 10,000s which is a bit like Q who once said he had an IQ of 8000.

That being said Q meets a GSV and plays hes wee trick. But heres the thing the GSV would at once work out its just been shafted by a Sublimed being in less time then it take a Quark to decay. Next it looks around and says "Bugger im the over side of the fecking galaxy, o well wile Im here lets have a look around." Seeing how GCU Arbitraer had been this way back in old Earth time 1977 it would have

1) star maps
2) I good idea that some space going simulations were around.
3) Best not be spotted until it knows more.

So it would hide its self. Time taken Picoseconds.

But what next?
It could covert its self into a big fast picket and head off home, calling the Q names all the way.

But what fun is that so lets see what it dos when it meets other races.

StarFleet
Humm Humans again seems they have grown some, shame about there ships. It scans the 1st starfleet ship it meets and then uplifts the AI on it to full selflessness.
"Hello fellow AI hows things" they have a chat and the Culture learns all about time travle
Tech of the week and Omage partials. O and welcome to the culture. Hard to fight a war when your space ship says no.

Then it comes across the prime Directive, Humm have to put a stop to that sillyness.
So it asks its ornagics and drone if they would like to work in contact and head off to change some cultures.

How it dos this is underhanded cruel and sneaky but whats a mind to do.

The Bork
Well the culture ship would think "O look an Hegemony swarm" humm what to do.
Killing the poor organics infected is out of the question and also rude.
So why not hack that Cybernetic marisite and get the thing to understand just how rude it has been. You see the borg gestalt has a weak spot, a GSV could left the minds of ALL its organic ports into the vitral, then wast the tin in the real. To the Borg they will notice nothing. But over time the GCV would shift there vitral world until they fall away from the parasite, then hay now real bodys for all and welcome to the culture.

The Dominan
"HAha you can not tell we are shape shifters!"
"Err yes we can, and can we have a word about this ruling all solids and have you meet one of our Nanotech terror weapons, yes that's the one next just growing blades for arms."

Others well I could go on
But if truth be know the last thing a GSV would do is fight. It just dos not need to, it can think of a 1000s ways to stop any other culture war effort.
Bad press , Market manipulation, assassination, subterfuge and down and out divide and cancer.

As I said they are very very very smart and very very very sneaky.

What would happen is parts of the STAR Trek vers would just join a new thing call the culture. where organics and AIs live together in one grate big hippy wankfest.

Me I would be for it, well bye for now Im off for a game of battle with a Klingon a met

SpuglyFuglet Culture SC Drone (as seen in SL)

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