Numenorean Armed Forces
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Picard
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Numenorean Armed Forces
Post any canon quotes (that is, from books) you can find about Numenorean weapons, armor, other war technology and general Numenorean war-related stuff.
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Admiral Breetai
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Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
as you wish sorry it took so long but
Akallabêth wrote:
‘This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars.’[
in reference to them being immune to diseases and their height is pretty impressive
‘In Númenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Númenóreans, both men and women, took delight, and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing them nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone.’
being able to telepathically call a riding mount
‘The Númenóreans in their own land possessed horses, which they esteemed. But they did not use them in war; for all their wars were overseas. Also they were of great stature and strength, and their fully-equipped soldiers were accustomed to bear heavy armour and weapons. ’
super human strength and endurance they didn't need supply trains they could apparently march along everything they needed just fine
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. ‘League’ is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lár, which was very nearly three of our miles.’
giving you an indication of their measurement to quantify certain feats
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘The journey was probably at least three hundred and eight leagues as marched; but the soldiers of the Dúnedain, tall men of great strength and endurance, were accustomed to move fully-armed at eight leagues a day ‘with ease’: when they went in eight spells of a league, with short breaks at the end of each league, and one hour near midday. This made a ‘march’ of about ten and a half hours, in which they were walking eight hours. This pace they could maintain for long periods with adequate provision. In hast they could move much faster, at twelve leagues a day (or in great need more), but for shorter periods.’
capable of between twenty four and thirty six miles in a day..which is beyond modern infantry capabilities
‘..the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more. They did not of course call themselves Halflings; this was the Númenórean name for them. It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Númenórean men, and was approximately accurate when given.’
average height between six and eight feet tall apparently
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men towered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs.’
yeah their armor and shields are pretty much impervious to orcish steel and they basically punked out an army with out casualties
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Seven leagues or more from the place of battle. Night had fallen when he fled; he reached the Anduin at midnight or near it.’
an exhausted fully armored ilsdur runs twenty or so miles in six hours
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Though it was a long journey, each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days – not indeed the miruvor or the lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten.’
they had the capacity to make small foodstuffs that could sustain them for days with out fatigue
I don't think I need to mention how critical stuff like this is for sieges right?
A Description of Númenor wrote:
‘In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared. ‘The Men of the Sea’, it was said, ‘send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel’; and in those days the great cohorts of the King’s Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch.’
Steel bows allowing them to hurl arrows over an ungodly distance
'And behold what hath happened since, step by step, At first he revealed only secrets of craft, and taught the making of many things powerful and wonderful; and they seemed good. Our ships go now without the wind, and many are made of metal that sheareth hidden rocks, and they sink not in calm or storm; but they are no longer fair to look upon. Our towers grow ever stronger and climb ever higher, but beauty they leave behind upon earth. We who have no foes are embattled with impregnable fortresses - and mostly on the West. Our arms are multiplied as if for an agelong war, and men are ceasing to give love or care to the making of other things for use or delight. But our shields are impenetrable, our swords cannot be withstood, our darts are like thunder and pass over leagues unerring. Where are our enemies? We have begun to slay one another. For Numenor now seems narrow, that was so large. Men covet, therefore, the lands that other families have long possessed. They fret as men in chains.
so during the fall of Numenor she had ironclad ships that seem to be steam powered or other wise running on their own power. Skyscrapers and Sword that can tear through any armor virtually invulnerable shields and apparently..Arrows that sound like thunder and travel many leagues
I'm not sure about this but it seems like their describing arrows that travel at the speed of sound...through physical strength plus their steel bows augmenting it or perhaps primitive fire arms.
this insane\
‘Desperate, [Frodo] drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the [Ringwraiths] halted.’
enchanted holy blades to be used against quasi spiritual people
The Black Gate Opens wrote:
‘He drew his sword and looked at it, and the intertwining shapes of red and gold; and the flowing characters of Numenor glinted like fire upon the blade....
At Pippin's side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.
Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath them. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.’
regular Iron and Steel chip and nick from Troll skin and yet a Numenorian crafted weapon sheers through it easily
onto their construction feats!!
‘“Many of the Ents were hurling themselves against the Orthanc-rock; but that defeated them. It was very smooth and hard. Some wizardry is in it, perhaps, older and stronger then Saruman’s. Anyway they could not get a grip on it, or make a crack in it; and they were bruising and wounding themselves against it.”’
ents make rocks their bitch tear apart landscape easily enough and yet they cannot breach numenorian crafted towers
the Siege of Gondor wrote:
‘At first men laughed and did not greatly fear such devices. For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvelous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Númenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.’
yeah apparently aside from a city leveling earth quake aint nothing toppling their buildings
here we get to their logistical stuff their ability to keep tabs on the enemy and their own land...and aside from modern sat comm..is there anything that;s comparable guys?
The Great River wrote:
‘“Behold Tol Brandir!” said Aragorn, pointing south to the tall peak. “Upon the left stands Amon Lhaw, and upon the right is Amon Hen, the Hills of Hearing and of Sight. In the days of the great kings there were high seats upon them, and watch was kept there.”
in imitation of Varda and Manwe's seats of power and dominion and after thousands of years and no maintenance broken and all messed up they do this
the Breaking of the Fellowship wrote:
‘Soon [Frodo] came out alone on the summit of Amon Hen, and halted, gasping for breath. He saw as through a mist a wide flat circle, paved with mighty flags, and surrounded with a crumbling battlement; and in the middle, upon four carven pillars, was a high seat, reached by a stair of many steps. Up he went and sat upon the ancient chair, feeling like a lost child that had clambered upon the throne of mountain-kings.
At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward he looked, and the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward he looked, and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit; a glimmering rainbow played upon the fume. And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-bird whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines.
But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien.
Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed, and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eyes were drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul, and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.’
so being capable of seeing hundreds to thousands of miles away and hearing as well
like I said poor mans satcom?
in conclusion
these guys would probably be very badly mismatched against any ancient to med evil society from our world...and are a pretty decent 'mid tier' universe in terms of potency The Numenorian civilization seems like it should be pit against other high fantasy setting with comparable force..or hell even some manga/comic/anime/toon settings
but you asked more for their military might then a ranking..so read and form your own conclusions
hope I was helpful
Akallabêth wrote:
‘This was the beginning of that people that in the Grey-elven speech are called the Dúnedain: the Númenóreans, Kings among Men. But they did not thus escape from the doom of death that Ilúvatar had set upon all Mankind, and they were mortal still, though their years were long, and they knew no sickness, ere the shadow fell upon them. Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of Men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth; and the light of their eyes was like the bright stars.’[
in reference to them being immune to diseases and their height is pretty impressive
‘In Númenor all journeyed from place to place on horseback; for in riding the Númenóreans, both men and women, took delight, and all the people of the land loved horses, treating them honourably and housing them nobly. They were trained to hear and answer calls from a great distance, and it is said in old tales that where there was great love between men and women and their favourite steeds they could be summoned at need by thought alone.’
being able to telepathically call a riding mount
‘The Númenóreans in their own land possessed horses, which they esteemed. But they did not use them in war; for all their wars were overseas. Also they were of great stature and strength, and their fully-equipped soldiers were accustomed to bear heavy armour and weapons. ’
super human strength and endurance they didn't need supply trains they could apparently march along everything they needed just fine
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Measures of distance are converted as nearly as possible into modern terms. ‘League’ is used because it was the longest measurement of distance: in Númenórean reckoning (which was decimal) five thousand rangar (full paces) made a lár, which was very nearly three of our miles.’
giving you an indication of their measurement to quantify certain feats
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘The journey was probably at least three hundred and eight leagues as marched; but the soldiers of the Dúnedain, tall men of great strength and endurance, were accustomed to move fully-armed at eight leagues a day ‘with ease’: when they went in eight spells of a league, with short breaks at the end of each league, and one hour near midday. This made a ‘march’ of about ten and a half hours, in which they were walking eight hours. This pace they could maintain for long periods with adequate provision. In hast they could move much faster, at twelve leagues a day (or in great need more), but for shorter periods.’
capable of between twenty four and thirty six miles in a day..which is beyond modern infantry capabilities
‘..the Hobbits of the Shire were in height between three and four feet, never less and seldom more. They did not of course call themselves Halflings; this was the Númenórean name for them. It evidently referred to their height in comparison with Númenórean men, and was approximately accurate when given.’
average height between six and eight feet tall apparently
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘First they let fly a hail of arrows, and then suddenly with a great shout they did as Isildur would have done, and hurled a great mass of their chief warriors down the last slope against the Dúnedain, expecting to break up their shield-wall. But it stood firm. The arrows had been unavailing against the Númenórean armour. The great Men towered above the tallest Orcs, and their swords and spears far outreached the weapons of their enemies. The onslaught faltered, broke, and retreated, leaving the defenders little harmed, unshaken, behind piles of fallen Orcs.’
yeah their armor and shields are pretty much impervious to orcish steel and they basically punked out an army with out casualties
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Seven leagues or more from the place of battle. Night had fallen when he fled; he reached the Anduin at midnight or near it.’
an exhausted fully armored ilsdur runs twenty or so miles in six hours
Disaster of the Gladden Fields wrote:
‘Though it was a long journey, each of the Dúnedain carried in a sealed wallet on his belt a small phial of cordial and wafers of a waybread that would sustain life in him for many days – not indeed the miruvor or the lembas of the Eldar, but like them, for the medicine and other arts of Númenor were potent and not yet forgotten.’
they had the capacity to make small foodstuffs that could sustain them for days with out fatigue
I don't think I need to mention how critical stuff like this is for sieges right?
A Description of Númenor wrote:
‘In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared. ‘The Men of the Sea’, it was said, ‘send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel’; and in those days the great cohorts of the King’s Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch.’
Steel bows allowing them to hurl arrows over an ungodly distance
'And behold what hath happened since, step by step, At first he revealed only secrets of craft, and taught the making of many things powerful and wonderful; and they seemed good. Our ships go now without the wind, and many are made of metal that sheareth hidden rocks, and they sink not in calm or storm; but they are no longer fair to look upon. Our towers grow ever stronger and climb ever higher, but beauty they leave behind upon earth. We who have no foes are embattled with impregnable fortresses - and mostly on the West. Our arms are multiplied as if for an agelong war, and men are ceasing to give love or care to the making of other things for use or delight. But our shields are impenetrable, our swords cannot be withstood, our darts are like thunder and pass over leagues unerring. Where are our enemies? We have begun to slay one another. For Numenor now seems narrow, that was so large. Men covet, therefore, the lands that other families have long possessed. They fret as men in chains.
so during the fall of Numenor she had ironclad ships that seem to be steam powered or other wise running on their own power. Skyscrapers and Sword that can tear through any armor virtually invulnerable shields and apparently..Arrows that sound like thunder and travel many leagues
I'm not sure about this but it seems like their describing arrows that travel at the speed of sound...through physical strength plus their steel bows augmenting it or perhaps primitive fire arms.
this insane\
‘Desperate, [Frodo] drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand. Two of the [Ringwraiths] halted.’
enchanted holy blades to be used against quasi spiritual people
The Black Gate Opens wrote:
‘He drew his sword and looked at it, and the intertwining shapes of red and gold; and the flowing characters of Numenor glinted like fire upon the blade....
At Pippin's side Beregond was stunned and overborne, and he fell; and the great troll-chief that smote him down bent over him, reaching out a clutching claw; for these fell creatures would bite the throats of those that they threw down.
Then Pippin stabbed upwards, and the written blade of Westernesse pierced through the hide and went deep into the vitals of the troll, and his black blood came gushing out. He toppled forward and came crashing down like a falling rock, burying those beneath them. Blackness and stench and crushing pain came upon Pippin, and his mind fell away into a great darkness.’
regular Iron and Steel chip and nick from Troll skin and yet a Numenorian crafted weapon sheers through it easily
onto their construction feats!!
‘“Many of the Ents were hurling themselves against the Orthanc-rock; but that defeated them. It was very smooth and hard. Some wizardry is in it, perhaps, older and stronger then Saruman’s. Anyway they could not get a grip on it, or make a crack in it; and they were bruising and wounding themselves against it.”’
ents make rocks their bitch tear apart landscape easily enough and yet they cannot breach numenorian crafted towers
the Siege of Gondor wrote:
‘At first men laughed and did not greatly fear such devices. For the main wall of the City was of great height and marvelous thickness, built ere the power and craft of Númenor waned in exile; and its outward face was like to the Tower of Orthanc, hard and dark and smooth, unconquerable by steel or fire, unbreakable except by some convulsion that would rend the very earth on which it stood.’
yeah apparently aside from a city leveling earth quake aint nothing toppling their buildings
here we get to their logistical stuff their ability to keep tabs on the enemy and their own land...and aside from modern sat comm..is there anything that;s comparable guys?
The Great River wrote:
‘“Behold Tol Brandir!” said Aragorn, pointing south to the tall peak. “Upon the left stands Amon Lhaw, and upon the right is Amon Hen, the Hills of Hearing and of Sight. In the days of the great kings there were high seats upon them, and watch was kept there.”
in imitation of Varda and Manwe's seats of power and dominion and after thousands of years and no maintenance broken and all messed up they do this
the Breaking of the Fellowship wrote:
‘Soon [Frodo] came out alone on the summit of Amon Hen, and halted, gasping for breath. He saw as through a mist a wide flat circle, paved with mighty flags, and surrounded with a crumbling battlement; and in the middle, upon four carven pillars, was a high seat, reached by a stair of many steps. Up he went and sat upon the ancient chair, feeling like a lost child that had clambered upon the throne of mountain-kings.
At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward he looked, and the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward he looked, and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit; a glimmering rainbow played upon the fume. And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-bird whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines.
But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria; smoke rose on the borders of Lórien.
Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed, and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. But against Minas Tirith was set another fortress, greater and more strong. Thither, eastward, unwilling his eyes were drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul, and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.’
so being capable of seeing hundreds to thousands of miles away and hearing as well
like I said poor mans satcom?
in conclusion
these guys would probably be very badly mismatched against any ancient to med evil society from our world...and are a pretty decent 'mid tier' universe in terms of potency The Numenorian civilization seems like it should be pit against other high fantasy setting with comparable force..or hell even some manga/comic/anime/toon settings
but you asked more for their military might then a ranking..so read and form your own conclusions
hope I was helpful
Last edited by Admiral Breetai on Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Picard
- Starship Captain
- Posts: 1433
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
Thanks. I appreciate your work. BTW, I might be able to clear up something for you:
As for size of their army, I can't remember anything, but, as Numenor was modelled after Atlantis, and Atlantis was described as having million-strong army, then Numenor might have had 1 000 000 men?
I think it references some kind of rockets. Most rockets are roughly arrow-shaped in at least some aspects, and "sounds like thunder" and "passes leagues unerring" sounds hellishly like some kind of extremely advanced (for middle-earth technology level) rockets.I'm not sure about this but it seems like their describing arrows that travel at the speed of sound...through physical strength plus their steel bows augmenting it or perhaps primitive fire arms.
That you were.hope I was helpful
As for size of their army, I can't remember anything, but, as Numenor was modelled after Atlantis, and Atlantis was described as having million-strong army, then Numenor might have had 1 000 000 men?
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Admiral Breetai
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- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
doubtful they had a very slow birthrate the population was likely in the hundreds of thousands and only entered into the low millions when they started colonizing other lands and the faithful inter married.
towards the end the pure bloods on the island suffered population decline due to various things including human sacrifice
it would be doable for them to field an army in the hundred plus thousand category though IIRC Gondor and Arnor at their heights had an army that large.
the enemy usually had numeric superiority over the good guys due to the quality of its troops being so crummy by comparison even in the first age when Melkor controlled more than likely millions upon millions..the Eldar kingdoms and the others likely only had a combined number of say two million soldiers..
the Vanyar(highest of the elves) are another story alltogether though they where so numerous when backed up by maiar an area the size of western Europe literally sank beneath their feat.
but as far as I know your probably looking Numenor being able to send out..say multiple armies comprising between 15 and 20 thousand men and it being "a mighty host' with a total number of between a hundred thousand..and two hundred thousand men..total
mind you..individually a numenorian soldier is probably worth a hundred other types and it not being such an exaggeration.
towards the end the pure bloods on the island suffered population decline due to various things including human sacrifice
it would be doable for them to field an army in the hundred plus thousand category though IIRC Gondor and Arnor at their heights had an army that large.
the enemy usually had numeric superiority over the good guys due to the quality of its troops being so crummy by comparison even in the first age when Melkor controlled more than likely millions upon millions..the Eldar kingdoms and the others likely only had a combined number of say two million soldiers..
the Vanyar(highest of the elves) are another story alltogether though they where so numerous when backed up by maiar an area the size of western Europe literally sank beneath their feat.
but as far as I know your probably looking Numenor being able to send out..say multiple armies comprising between 15 and 20 thousand men and it being "a mighty host' with a total number of between a hundred thousand..and two hundred thousand men..total
mind you..individually a numenorian soldier is probably worth a hundred other types and it not being such an exaggeration.
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Picard
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Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
But they spent 3000 years in Numenor, at least 2000 years in complete peace. And as far as I can remember, when Numenor went to assault Valar (granted, it was an all-out mobilization) it was said to have the greatest host ever assembled. Wikipedia gives Morgoth's host in final battle of First Age to be around 1 000 000 to 1 500 000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armies_and ... th_warfare
If Numenorean military in full-scale mobilization exceeded that, then standard total manpower might be 100 000 to 200 000.
And as for how good soldiers Numenoreans are... Orcs on Gladden fields had 10:1 numerical advantage, and were helped by favourable terrain, element of surprise (at least in first engagement) and by power of the Ring; yet they were said to have suffered so heavy casualties that they did not dare to repeat such action ever again. Mind you, it was mostly a melee fight (Isildur had only 20-odd archers) and yet it seems that Numenoreans inflicted casualties on orcs that went from 5:1 to 8:1 ratio - that is, 5 to 8 Orks killed for every single Numenorean (I'd say that more likely range is from 7:1 to 9:1, since half an army lost probably would not cripple them) - not to mention that Numenoreans were surrounded.
EDIT:
Land area of Numenor was around 160 000 square miles - or 400 000 square kilometers. In 1025 Byzantine Empire had population of 12 000 000 and land area of 1 200 000 square kilometers. Now, Numenor was far more technologically advanced than Byzantum at that point, as well as enjoying longtime peace (at least in mainland) so two to three times population density is not unbeleivable - that gives population from 8 to 12 million.
On the other hand, it might be better to use Roman Empire - in 25BC, it had population density of 20.7 inhabitants per square kilometer. If we allow for better agricultural techniques on part of Numenoreans, plus way better climate - it was said by Tolkien that Numenorean climate was made by Valar to be "optimal" - we might assume up to 30 - 40 inhabitants per square kilometer, thus giving population of 12 to 16 million.
Now, we have three ballparks - 8 million, 12 million and 16 milion. Latter two are more likely, as Numenor seems to have been originally modelled after Roman Empire, with traces of middle-American empires later on.
Augustus' army had 25 legions - 150 000 men in total - plus same number of auxillia. There are things in Tolkien's works that mention Numenorean army also using native auxillia troops, especially horsemen, as Numenoreans were foot soldiers - one more paralell with Roman Empire, supporting my Rome-based population estimates (Byzantine armies were primarly heavy-cavalry based, especially later on). Population of Roman Empire at that time is estimated to 56.8 million on Wikipedia; however, at that time, Rome was at peace, which Numenor was not. On the other hand, wartime Roman army during Augustus (in Civil war) numbered 60 legions, for 360 000 men, and prbably same number of auxillia.
So, Roman army estimates are 158 to 379 men per legionnaire - however, as auxillia came from all over Empire, as legions did, better estimate is 89 to 190 men per soldier.
Thus, professional Numenorean army is probably around 63 000 to 180 000 soldiers for "standard" Numenorean army, plus unknown number of auxilliaries from their overseas colonies - althought I doubt that number of auxilliaries was much greater than Numenorean home army. So 130 000 to 400 000 total military (without full-scale mobilization) is reasonable.
If we take full-scale mobilization to produce 1 soldier per 10 to 15 people (reasonable given their long lifespan and how long they remained in "strength of body and mind - even lower values may be possible), we get 800 000 to 1.6 million soldiers for maximum possible size of Numenorean military (figures for Numenor alone), plus auxilliaries, which might add some 500 000 to 1 million men more at least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armies_and ... th_warfare
If Numenorean military in full-scale mobilization exceeded that, then standard total manpower might be 100 000 to 200 000.
And as for how good soldiers Numenoreans are... Orcs on Gladden fields had 10:1 numerical advantage, and were helped by favourable terrain, element of surprise (at least in first engagement) and by power of the Ring; yet they were said to have suffered so heavy casualties that they did not dare to repeat such action ever again. Mind you, it was mostly a melee fight (Isildur had only 20-odd archers) and yet it seems that Numenoreans inflicted casualties on orcs that went from 5:1 to 8:1 ratio - that is, 5 to 8 Orks killed for every single Numenorean (I'd say that more likely range is from 7:1 to 9:1, since half an army lost probably would not cripple them) - not to mention that Numenoreans were surrounded.
EDIT:
Land area of Numenor was around 160 000 square miles - or 400 000 square kilometers. In 1025 Byzantine Empire had population of 12 000 000 and land area of 1 200 000 square kilometers. Now, Numenor was far more technologically advanced than Byzantum at that point, as well as enjoying longtime peace (at least in mainland) so two to three times population density is not unbeleivable - that gives population from 8 to 12 million.
On the other hand, it might be better to use Roman Empire - in 25BC, it had population density of 20.7 inhabitants per square kilometer. If we allow for better agricultural techniques on part of Numenoreans, plus way better climate - it was said by Tolkien that Numenorean climate was made by Valar to be "optimal" - we might assume up to 30 - 40 inhabitants per square kilometer, thus giving population of 12 to 16 million.
Now, we have three ballparks - 8 million, 12 million and 16 milion. Latter two are more likely, as Numenor seems to have been originally modelled after Roman Empire, with traces of middle-American empires later on.
Augustus' army had 25 legions - 150 000 men in total - plus same number of auxillia. There are things in Tolkien's works that mention Numenorean army also using native auxillia troops, especially horsemen, as Numenoreans were foot soldiers - one more paralell with Roman Empire, supporting my Rome-based population estimates (Byzantine armies were primarly heavy-cavalry based, especially later on). Population of Roman Empire at that time is estimated to 56.8 million on Wikipedia; however, at that time, Rome was at peace, which Numenor was not. On the other hand, wartime Roman army during Augustus (in Civil war) numbered 60 legions, for 360 000 men, and prbably same number of auxillia.
So, Roman army estimates are 158 to 379 men per legionnaire - however, as auxillia came from all over Empire, as legions did, better estimate is 89 to 190 men per soldier.
Thus, professional Numenorean army is probably around 63 000 to 180 000 soldiers for "standard" Numenorean army, plus unknown number of auxilliaries from their overseas colonies - althought I doubt that number of auxilliaries was much greater than Numenorean home army. So 130 000 to 400 000 total military (without full-scale mobilization) is reasonable.
If we take full-scale mobilization to produce 1 soldier per 10 to 15 people (reasonable given their long lifespan and how long they remained in "strength of body and mind - even lower values may be possible), we get 800 000 to 1.6 million soldiers for maximum possible size of Numenorean military (figures for Numenor alone), plus auxilliaries, which might add some 500 000 to 1 million men more at least.
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Mike DiCenso
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Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
Breetai, could you please change the color on your quotes to something much lighter in shade, like yellow, bright green, or red? Trying to read that dark blue on black gives me a serious case of eye strain.
-Mike
-Mike
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Admiral Breetai
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Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
you have to look at Tolkiens writing when he says greatest he likely means in terms of might and power which is not the same thing as numbers.Picard wrote:But they spent 3000 years in Numenor, at least 2000 years in complete peace. And as far as I can remember, when Numenor went to assault Valar (granted, it was an all-out mobilization) it was said to have the greatest host ever assembled. Wikipedia gives Morgoth's host in final battle of First Age to be around 1 000 000 to 1 500 000.
Also the greatest host ever assembled in relation to mortals I believe as the armies in the war of wrath dwarfed and vastly exceeded the might of numenor..IIRC
Picard wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armies_and ... th_warfare
If Numenorean military in full-scale mobilization exceeded that, then standard total manpower might be 100 000 to 200 000.
see my issue with this is Tolkiens repeated emphasis on their low birthrate other wise I'd agree
keep in mind that these are watered down..not what they once used to be Numenorians and as such likely would not be an indication of the empire at its peak when Orc armies basically refused to fight them because a one sided curbstomp was an absolute assurancePicard wrote:And as for how good soldiers Numenoreans are... Orcs on Gladden fields had 10:1 numerical advantage, and were helped by favourable terrain, element of surprise (at least in first engagement) and by power of the Ring; yet they were said to have suffered so heavy casualties that they did not dare to repeat such action ever again. Mind you, it was mostly a melee fight (Isildur had only 20-odd archers) and yet it seems that Numenoreans inflicted casualties on orcs that went from 5:1 to 8:1 ratio - that is, 5 to 8 Orks killed for every single Numenorean (I'd say that more likely range is from 7:1 to 9:1, since half an army lost probably would not cripple them) - not to mention that Numenoreans were surrounded.
see again birth rate issues and their own cultural issues some for example died bachelorsPicard wrote:
Now, we have three ballparks - 8 million, 12 million and 16 milion. Latter two are more likely, as Numenor seems to have been originally modelled after Roman Empire, with traces of middle-American empires later on.
I agree with that number it seems reasonable..if you are talking between one hundred and four hundred thousand seems a decent figure I'd put it closer to a quarter of a million total myselfPicard wrote: .
Thus, professional Numenorean army is probably around 63 000 to 180 000 soldiers for "standard" Numenorean army, plus unknown number of auxilliaries from their overseas colonies - althought I doubt that number of auxilliaries was much greater than Numenorean home army. So 130 000 to 400 000 total military (without full-scale mobilization) is reasonable.
be careful when applying real world military standards to fantasy armies though allot of time they fly in the face of such things though Tolkien being a ww1 field medic..and a good researcher..probably not so much so but all the same
Mike DiCenso wrote:Breetai, could you please change the color on your quotes to something much lighter in shade, like yellow, bright green, or red? Trying to read that dark blue on black gives me a serious case of eye strain.
-Mike
sorry about that consider it done..I would ask for your input though if you don't mind.
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Picard
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Re: Numenorean Armed Forces
But Tolkien made it clear that they conquered lots of territories; and if you look in Akallabeth (I think that's the book), the description of Numenorean camp makes it clear that nothing like that was ever seen in Middle-Earth, and it is said that even Sauron was left in awe of their might - mention is made of "countless tents". So, maybe Numenorean military wasn't as strong numerically as Allied host in destruction of Thangorodrim, but it wasn't far behind either.AdmiralBreetai wrote:you have to look at Tolkiens writing when he says greatest he likely means in terms of might and power which is not the same thing as numbers.
And keep in mind that it is only figure for an all-out mobilization. For example, standard size of Croatian army now is 16 000 men; in Operation Storm, we had 200 000-strong army.
But they were not small nation even in First Age, and were seen as welcome addition to Feanor's forces. Even after going to Numenor, they had 3 000 years to multiply.see my issue with this is Tolkiens repeated emphasis on their low birthrate other wise I'd agree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armies_and ... th_warfare
LotR wiki also gives numbers of Last Alliance to be 100 000 Men (probably mostly or exclusively Numenoreans), 100 000 Elves and 50 000 Dwarves; where did they get it from, I have no idea, but it fits with described strengths in LotR. It is said in RotK that 7 000 - strong army was "barely as large as vanguard of Gondorian army in days of its strength". Meaning that total Gondorian army was at least 21 000 strong, if not more.
Actually... only think they might have been watered down from was march. Gladden Fields massacre happened short time after War of the Last Allaince, before decline of Numenoreans started.keep in mind that these are watered down..not what they once used to be Numenorians and as such likely would not be an indication of the empire at its peak when Orc armies basically refused to fight them because a one sided curbstomp was an absolute assurance
He did get most things in LotR right, so he probably did quite a lot of research.be careful when applying real world military standards to fantasy armies though allot of time they fly in the face of such things though Tolkien being a ww1 field medic..and a good researcher..probably not so much so but all the same