4 Minbari Sharlins and 2 whitestars vs the SSD

[Lucky]

Sure, they act that way when they don't inexplicably detonate a few meters away from the hull causing zero damage.

Except the flack happens around the target, or if hitting a shield.

The very fact that TIEs are used in the SW universe indicates that unshielded fighters are viable. Obviously not having shielding is going to be a problem, but when TIEs, which seem to be inferior to starfuries on several levels, can shoot down shielded rebel fighters, the shielding thing doesn't really seem like, a big deal, esp considering that the weak weapons of a TIE or a ATAT can take out rebel fighters in one or two shots.

TIE are the Zeros of star wars. Fast, agile, well armed, but blowup if you look at them funny. Anything you can say is wrong with a TIE can be applied to every Babylon 5 fighter remember.^_^

Not being able to easily shoot down a target in a single shot does not mean the weapon is weak. It can just as easily mean the target is well armored.

Star Wars shields have to be over come with enough firepower. You either shoot a lot of weak shots to overcome it, or you shoot a few really strong(relative to the targets shield) shots at it. If something can overcome the targets shield in a single shot that means the gun is powerful enough to overcome the shield, and not that the shield is weak.

So now it's 1 megaton? You keep lowering the figure, so it's hard to be sure. Please provide evidence of 1 megaton killing a ship. The only 'solid' figure we have is that the Black star was taken out by two 2-megaton mines.

Only one megaton(4.184×1015 J/4.184 peta-joules) will hit the target at best if the bomb is 2 megatons. Missiles take up a lot of space, can be shot down as easily as fighters, and can only be used once. Since 200 megawatts is an anti-capital ship weapon then a 2 megaton bomb should be a one hit kill.

John took down 4 Minbari war ships with 3 nukes that each had a yield of 2 megatons according to "in the beginning.".

Please provide evidence that SW ships routinely trade this magnitude of firepower. All ground engagements in the movies demonstrate firepower well below this, including ATAT firepower when used against rebel fighters. Considering that r2d2 could survive a hit from a TIEs blasters/turbolasers, not to mention the other damage that the x-wings flown by luke and wedge took seems to indicate that TIE weapons, at the very least, are not much more powerful then ground weaponry, yet can pierce fighter scaled shields.

You should know this quote by now.

" The skies of Coruscant blaze with war.
  The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's endless cityscape can find it beautiful.
  From the inside, it's different. The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships."

Now if you want a detailed analysis you may want to read: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvapetown.html
Why would the weapons used by smaller craft limit what larger craft can do? Bigger reactors, and more rugged weapons should mean higher outputs for larger.

When do rebel fighters attack AT-AT? Every AT-AT VS fighter I know of is from the EU.

If the AT-AT is shown firing on mundane objects(ice), and displaying X amount of firepower then it means that at the very lowest that level of firepower will be used on enemy craft like the snow speeders. The snow speeders being able to soak up damage as they are shown speaks highly of Star Wars armor rather then poorly of star wars firepower.

R2-D2 survived(just barely) being hit in space. No air makes a difference. It's why R2-D2 could stand inches or less from bolts in ep1.

Slave I is an outlier, as has been mentioned before. Taking the firepower of Slave I and broadly extending it to all craft of comparable size in SW is like taking a Nial and saying that raider deltawings have stealth technology, inertia-less drives, and have 12 beam weapons.

They are proof that larger capital ships are capable of more,.

Why should we assume bombers or small craft designed to attack larger ships should not be comparable to Slave-I?

You realize that B5 has 3 different weapons as part of its defense grid that are quad-barreled, right? You still haven't provided a quote or episode for the 200 mw figure, even after all this time, despite routinely asking me to source much more trivial things. The 200 mw figure matters when you attempt to broadly extend the figure to every single weapon on b5, (or alternatively claim that only the 200 mw pulse cannons hit the Primus)

Susan Ivanova: We'll upgrade your data systems, and supercharge your engines! And, if you have an accident, we'll repair your ships. And sooner or later, your ships will have accidents.
Smuggler #1: My pilots don't have accidents.
Ivanova: They will. I'll see to it.
Smuggler #1: You wouldn't!
Ivanova: Really? I've got a 200-megawatt pulse cannon in the forward cargo bay that says otherwise.

She is talking about one of these: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png since we see pulse cannons fire from that area, and the pulses are blue/white.

1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoCvgAA ... re=related

The sources you cited contradict your claims made within the same post. The 'mine launcher' is identified as a 'plasma cannon' on the website. Liekwise, one of the 'interceptors' is identified as a 'twin particle array'. At any rate, all of B5s weapons are referred to broadly as interceptors, and the special effects from either the 'pulse cannons' or the 'interceptors' could be the projectiles we see hitting the Primus.

It's a good thing I'm not basing my argument on the information on that site since it is wrong in this case.^_^
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E
These are an older model interceptors system: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid1.png

These are Interceptors. They are the only weapons on Babylon 5 to serve this role: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid4.png

If you want these: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid2.png to be plasma cannons you need to prove Babylon 5 even has such weapons.

Making stuff up again? We only see the fires on the hull after the last strafing run. That would constitute damage in the eyes of most people.

Lie? All we see during the first strafing run is the plasma from the Starfury's cannons. It's not until B5 blasts the bleep out of the warship that the Starfury are able to be effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

But the two megaton figure is entirely accurate despite being mentioned nowhere else. In other words, Londo is as accurate as he needs to be to support your arguments, but the moment something comes up that supports my side, he is a senile old coot who is embellishing the story for some kids?

Londo should know the yields of an EA nuke of that time since it is his job, but if you want to throw out "In The Beginning" that will hurt you since it makes the Minbari and Babylon 5 look worse not to have it.

Sheriden: There wasn't much style of finesse involved, she was huge, monstrous, we tried everything but none of our weapons would lock on to their ships, some kind of stealth technology, so I hit on the idea of mining the area between Jupiter and Mars. A fusion bomb doesn't have to lock onto anything if it's close enough. Took out the Black Star and three heavy cruisers before they could escape.

I never said that they destroyed asteroids. When they *do* use them to attack asteroids, they are completely useless.

Since when is doing exactly what you want them to do useless? The TIE bombers were to force the Falcon out of it's hiding place by causing earthquakes in the asteroid. That takes a bleep load of energy, or magic technobabble, but either way they would be murder on any unshielded thing.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/faq/?c ... 2&faqID=33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale

I was arguing that if TIEs had megaton-level firepower like you seem to be claiming, they wouldn't need to fly around asteroids, and they could have just strafed the one that the falcon was in, instead of using (ineffectual) bombers.

Stop making stuff up. I never said standard TIE had that kind of firepower, and you clearly have not seen the movie because the bombers did exactly what they were suppose to.

It would not be hard for TIE bombers to deploy megaton or higher bombs however, but the same can be said

Funny how you made the claim that "You honestly can't expect VFX artists to be 100% accurate." for the black star, despite its obvious problems, but when an even more primitive special effect is used for the turbolasers firing on the asteroid (and when there is an example of asteroids colliding and producing a large fireball at another point in the film)-you don't question the special effects of these instances at all.

You are arguing that the bombs in "In The Beginning" are not 2 megatons in spite of the story teller saying they are because the effects are a little off. Remember, the movie was an old man telling a story based on events, and not the actual events in order to inspire some little kids.

Sheriden: There wasn't much style of finesse involved, she was huge, monstrous, we tried everything but none of our weapons would lock on to their ships, some kind of stealth technology, so I hit on the idea of mining the area between Jupiter and Mars. A fusion bomb doesn't have to lock onto anything if it's close enough. Took out the Black Star and three heavy cruisers before they could escape.

You end up with silly things no matter what version of events you go with.


I have no idea why you are bringing up the odd TESB asteroids. They just show the asteroids being blown up to the point that they can not be seen anymore.

I see a much smaller asteroid annihilating a star destroyer bridge flush down to the main hull. Most evidence in the movies and in the EU points to Star Destroyers having shield generators in the domes on the bridge, and some of them having an additional dome on the underside of the destroyer (but this model does not have a hanger on the underside) I have no idea what 'sphere' you are talking about.

That asteroid was huge, solid seeming, and possibly made of very volatile stuff. It was about half as tall as the tower, and those towers are huge. An ISD is almost two kilometers long

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... D_egvv.jpg
Note the reactor sphere/dome on the bottom. The reactor on an ISD takes up almost a third or fourth of the ship.

[User1555]

Except the flack happens around the target, or if hitting a shield.

In Ep II we see flak exploding behind the jedi starfighter, we routinely see flak explode near ships which would have impacted the ship itself if it hadn't detonated prematurely. Blaster/Turbolaser flak seems to be inconsistent at best, we never see a fighter get downed by flak explosions, in fact, we never see anything more then superficial burns, even in an atmosphere against unshielded targets (Hoth), where the only shots that did anything were direct hits.

TIE are the Zeros of star wars. Fast, agile, well armed, but blowup if you look at them funny. Anything you can say is wrong with a TIE can be applied to every Babylon 5 fighter remember.^_^

Not being able to easily shoot down a target in a single shot does not mean the weapon is weak. It can just as easily mean the target is well armored.

Star Wars shields have to be over come with enough firepower. You either shoot a lot of weak shots to overcome it, or you shoot a few really strong(relative to the targets shield) shots at it. If something can overcome the targets shield in a single shot that means the gun is powerful enough to overcome the shield, and not that the shield is weak.

Even Deltawings would give a TIE a run for their money, as they can mount missiles and may have rear turrets on some models. Furies have superior turning capability, are less bulky, have better targeting computers, have an escape pod, and are airtight (the suit is redundant). When ships like Nials get involved the comparison becomes so lopsided it is funny.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16471&query=raider
(source for raiders variants with rear guns)

Assuming that the main guns of the ATAT are designed for taking down fighters as well as infantry, bunkers, etc. (considering they do seem to be some of the most accurate shots in SW when it comes to this role) They don't seem to be particularly powerful, and yet unshielded speeders go down about as easily as x-wings and y-wings do to TIEs. (1-2 shots vs about double that amount) Shields definitely seem to have an impact, but not by a whole lot.

At any rate, the scenario is pitting nials vs TIEs, not furies vs X-wings, so fighter shields are a non-issue.

Only one megaton(4.184×1015 J/4.184 peta-joules) will hit the target at best if the bomb is 2 megatons. Missiles take up a lot of space, can be shot down as easily as fighters, and can only be used once. Since 200 megawatts is an anti-capital ship weapon then a 2 megaton bomb should be a one hit kill.

John took down 4 Minbari war ships with 3 nukes that each had a yield of 2 megatons according to "in the beginning.".

Again, the movie (despite being one of my faves) has a lot of inconsistencies. Notably, the other cruisers do not show in the movie, nor are the even mentioned. Two mines are used to take out the BS. In the show, he does not give a figure on the megaton yield of the mines, or the number used.

Now if you want a detailed analysis you may want to read: http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvapetown.html
Why would the weapons used by smaller craft limit what larger craft can do? Bigger reactors, and more rugged weapons should mean higher outputs for larger.

When do rebel fighters attack AT-AT? Every AT-AT VS fighter I know of is from the EU.

If the AT-AT is shown firing on mundane objects(ice), and displaying X amount of firepower then it means that at the very lowest that level of firepower will be used on enemy craft like the snow speeders. The snow speeders being able to soak up damage as they are shown speaks highly of Star Wars armor rather then poorly of star wars firepower.

R2-D2 survived(just barely) being hit in space. No air makes a difference. It's why R2-D2 could stand inches or less from bolts in ep1.

Rebel fighters attack ATATs on Hoth, of course. Speeders were unshielded. We see what ATAT guns can do to the ground. 1-2 shots to kill a speeder. In space, TIEs kill shielded rebel fighters in only a few more shots on average. Unknown how many turbolasers it takes to kill a rebel fighter, but they can presumably take at least a few, considering that we see shield flashes from the front of the canopies in the DS run.

Air would matter in the case of flak explosions, but the droid was hit with the actual bolt. Considering how few shots it takes to kill a rebel fighter, this means one of a few things: rebel fighters are extremely flimsy, have highly unstable reactors/munitions/etc on board, or that TIEs have weak/unreliable weapons. All of those point to the possibility that a fury/other b5 fighter wouldn't have much difference in difficulty killing one.

They are proof that larger capital ships are capable of more,.

Why should we assume bombers or small craft designed to attack larger ships should not be comparable to Slave-I?

They are proof that capital ships are capable of more, but are not necessarily proof that capital ships use them regularly. Indeed, we never see SDs or rebel ships using anything faster firing then the quad guns on the falcon, they seem to prefer using TLs in all occasions except the falcon.

Again, it is like looking at a Nial and saying that since they have such firepower, it's perfectly possible that there are raider and fury variants that mount that kind of firepower. Slave I is an outlier, as Jango is a professional and presumably very wealthy bounty hunter with the best that money can buy.

She is talking about one of these: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png since we see pulse cannons fire from that area, and the pulses are blue/white.

1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoCvgAA ... re=related

...so she's talking about pulse cannons...inside the hanger....You are aware that we never see pulse fire from the hanger, right? That video showed the pulse cannons next to the bridge firing. Way to prove my point for me! Unless you can prove that there is an identical model inside the hanger to the one seen firing in that vid, the 200 MW figure is irrelevant.

Lie? All we see during the first strafing run is the plasma from the Starfury's cannons. It's not until B5 blasts the bleep out of the warship that the Starfury are able to be effective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

Most people would take that as proof that the starfuries caused the hull breaches, considering that the fires did not appear until after they strafed it. At any rate, irrelevant now that you have failed to provide evidence that the interceptors are 200 mw.

The first hit to the lefthand side is done by a starfury, this spot is later hit by an interceptor, and then a bunch more times by starfuries. Of course, you aren't claiming that the interceptors only exploited damage already done by a starfury, only that the starfuries added to the damage done by the interceptors. Presumably because then you can say that the 200 mw interceptors killed it. Nevermind that B5 has several kinds of weapon platforms that fire blue pulses, and that you have failed to prove that any of them are the same model as the 200 mw one in the hanger. Hell, it could be something as small as the pulse weapon that Garibaldi uses in the dream sequence in S5.

Since when is doing exactly what you want them to do useless? The TIE bombers were to force the Falcon out of it's hiding place by causing earthquakes in the asteroid. That takes a bleep load of energy, or magic technobabble, but either way they would be murder on any unshielded thing.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/faq/?c ... 2&faqID=33
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richter_magnitude_scale

The asteroid has at least some tunnels in it. We don't know the exact composition of it, or how much space is being taken up by the worm. The tunnel is going to be a natural weak point in the structure, and could be expected to take more damage. The bombers cause no visible damage when they hit the surface, only cause some slight tremors.

You are arguing that the bombs in "In The Beginning" are not 2 megatons in spite of the story teller saying they are because the effects are a little off. Remember, the movie was an old man telling a story based on events, and not the actual events in order to inspire some little kids.

Londo should know the yields of an EA nuke of that time since it is his job, but if you want to throw out "In The Beginning" that will hurt you since it makes the Minbari and Babylon 5 look worse not to have it.

It isn't Londo's job as ambassador to B5 to know the yield of the bombs used by Sherradin. Not even Ivonnova knew the whole story.

So you admit that the effects may be off, because he is embellishing it to entertain some kids, and yet you take the effects at face value...?

I try to only take effects that are as consistent as possible. Hence I don't accept the Hoth Asteroid Special effects either, but accept the slave I's main guns.

You end up with silly things no matter what version of events you go with.


I have no idea why you are bringing up the odd TESB asteroids. They just show the asteroids being blown up to the point that they can not be seen anymore.

That asteroid was huge, solid seeming, and possibly made of very volatile stuff. It was about half as tall as the tower, and those towers are huge. An ISD is almost two kilometers long

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... D_egvv.jpg
Note the reactor sphere/dome on the bottom. The reactor on an ISD takes up almost a third or fourth of the ship.

If the asteroids were made of volatile stuff, then that throws off the firepower calcs for turbolasers. If they were not, then that indicates that SDs can suffer catastrophic chain reaction explosions from asteroid impacts that can destroy the entire bridge of a star destroyer.

Did you notice that the source you give for the shield generator, also lists the tower domes as shield generators? Considering that you apparently consider this diagram to be cannon, does this mean you will finally admit that the bridge deflector shields of the SSD were taken out by a few piddling shots from some A-Wings?

Considering that the main reactor of a SD is exposed on the underside, one wonders if it would happen if a Sharlin hit in the belly... :)

[Lucky]

In Ep II we see flak exploding behind the jedi starfighter, we routinely see flak explode near ships which would have impacted the ship itself if it hadn't detonated prematurely. Blaster/Turbolaser flak seems to be inconsistent at best, we never see a fighter get downed by flak explosions, in fact, we never see anything more then superficial burns, even in an atmosphere against unshielded targets (Hoth), where the only shots that did anything were direct hits.

Flak shakes the target so it does something.

Even Deltawings would give a TIE a run for their money, as they can mount missiles and may have rear turrets on some models. Furies have superior turning capability, are less bulky, have better targeting computers, have an escape pod, and are airtight (the suit is redundant). When ships like Nials get involved the comparison becomes so lopsided it is funny.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16471&query=raider
(source for raiders variants with rear guns)

TIE pilots can eject as I recall. It at least kind of looks like a TIE pilot ejected in TESB during the Hoth asteroid chase.

You are going to have to provide evidence of Babylon 5 fighters being superior. Heck, there really isn't any reason for StarFury to be notably better then Delta wing

I don't take word of god as evidence. They didn't bother to show a rear facing gun on the model after all.
http://images.wikia.com/babylon5/images ... ighter.gif
http://images.wikia.com/babylon5/images ... rld_01.png

Assuming that the main guns of the ATAT are designed for taking down fighters as well as infantry, bunkers, etc. (considering they do seem to be some of the most accurate shots in SW when it comes to this role) They don't seem to be particularly powerful, and yet unshielded speeders go down about as easily as x-wings and y-wings do to TIEs. (1-2 shots vs about double that amount) Shields definitely seem to have an impact, but not by a whole lot.

AT-AT have dial a yield weapons as shown in the movies. They used full power to destroy the reactor at Hoth, but lower settings on everything else for some reason.

The only reason an a star wars force may not fire at full power is to conserve energy/fuel as shown in "Supply Lines", but that was no reason to think that at Hoth the AT-AT had to worry about fuel.

At any rate, the scenario is pitting nials vs TIEs, not furies vs X-wings, so fighter shields are a non-issue.

Since Nail are comparable to the crappy Starfury I doubt it would be all that good.

TIE go head to head with X-Wing, and seem to be faster, but care a little less firepower.

TIE bombers should be comparable to Y-wing if not better since they are both bombers, and the Y-wing was the old bomber of choice for the Republic/Empire during the Clone War.

Again, the movie (despite being one of my faves) has a lot of inconsistencies. Notably, the other cruisers do not show in the movie, nor are the even mentioned. Two mines are used to take out the BS. In the show, he does not give a figure on the megaton yield of the mines, or the number used.

They don't really conflict since Sheridan was rather vague on what he did.

Minbari sensors must suck given what Sheridan says. since they could not see the hundreds of zillions of bombs. ^_^

Rebel fighters attack ATATs on Hoth, of course. Speeders were unshielded. We see what ATAT guns can do to the ground. 1-2 shots to kill a speeder. In space, TIEs kill shielded rebel fighters in only a few more shots on average. Unknown how many turbolasers it takes to kill a rebel fighter, but they can presumably take at least a few, considering that we see shield flashes from the front of the canopies in the DS run.

Here's what the official Star Wars site has to say: http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicle/snowspeeder/

The speeders are never referred to as fighters as I recall, and are barely working during the movie.

It often only takes one direct hit to kill a fighter even when they have shields, but that in no way tells us how powerful the kill shot was

Air would matter in the case of flak explosions, but the droid was hit with the actual bolt. Considering how few shots it takes to kill a rebel fighter, this means one of a few things: rebel fighters are extremely flimsy, have highly unstable reactors/munitions/etc on board, or that TIEs have weak/unreliable weapons. All of those point to the possibility that a fury/other b5 fighter wouldn't have much difference in difficulty killing one.

Blasters seem to often drill straight through/into things, and even your much loved starfury have things that are very volatile like fuel, and any hit on a fighter will likely be something vital. It's rather common for a blaster to make a hole straight through a person.

We see R2-D2 get hit, it's "head" gets blown-up, but we don't know what happened to his insides. They had a hard time fixing him as I recall, and most people would have likely scrapped him.

Do keep in mind most sources show TIE to be sturdy enough to land on their solar panels, and those flimsy X-wings can pretty much crash in water, and only need to be lifted out of the water. Star Wars craft are not flimsy.

They are proof that capital ships are capable of more, but are not necessarily proof that capital ships use them regularly. Indeed, we never see SDs or rebel ships using anything faster firing then the quad guns on the falcon, they seem to prefer using TLs in all occasions except the falcon.

We know that Venators needs to stop firing their light guns in order to fire at full power. Less guns firing should point to higher powered shots.

Again, it is like looking at a Nial and saying that since they have such firepower, it's perfectly possible that there are raider and fury variants that mount that kind of firepower. Slave I is an outlier, as Jango is a professional and presumably very wealthy bounty hunter with the best that money can buy.

You do realize that Slave-I is not a one of a kind craft, right?

There is no reason to think that the AA guns on a capital ship won't be at least as powerful as the guns on Slave-I.

...so she's talking about pulse cannons...inside the hanger....You are aware that we never see pulse fire from the hanger, right? That video showed the pulse cannons next to the bridge firing. Way to prove my point for me! Unless you can prove that there is an identical model inside the hanger to the one seen firing in that vid, the 200 MW figure is irrelevant.

There is no sign of internal weapons on Babylon 5, and only a moron would put any on the inside of the station that could harm a ship since the internals are so delicate. Remember what happened the time that Narn transport had a minor accident, and people died.

Most people would take that as proof that the starfuries caused the hull breaches, considering that the fires did not appear until after they strafed it. At any rate, irrelevant now that you have failed to provide evidence that the interceptors are 200 mw.

Interceptors would logically be weaker then pulse cannons, and they were overheating before Babylon 5 fired on the Centauri warship.

The first hit to the lefthand side is done by a starfury, this spot is later hit by an interceptor, and then a bunch more times by starfuries. Of course, you aren't claiming that the interceptors only exploited damage already done by a starfury, only that the starfuries added to the damage done by the interceptors. Presumably because then you can say that the 200 mw interceptors killed it. Nevermind that B5 has several kinds of weapon platforms that fire blue pulses, and that you have failed to prove that any of them are the same model as the 200 mw one in the hanger. Hell, it could be something as small as the pulse weapon that Garibaldi uses in the dream sequence in S5.

The interceptors had already overheated by the time Babylon 5 opens fire on the Centauri warship.
4:13

At 4:21 we see the Starfury plasma pulses explode when they hit the warship, but there are no fires. This is similar the the strafing run on the Omega destroyers. The Starfurys only weakened the armor.

4:35 we see the new interceptors, pulse cannons, and what ever that large bore gun is fire on the warship. It doesn't matter what gun fired, but they can't all have been interceptors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

The asteroid has at least some tunnels in it. We don't know the exact composition of it, or how much space is being taken up by the worm. The tunnel is going to be a natural weak point in the structure, and could be expected to take more damage. The bombers cause no visible damage when they hit the surface, only cause some slight tremors.

The asteroid Han hid in was a solid and stable hunk of rock, and the Empire wanted the Falcon's crew alive. The bombs were meant to smoke the Falcon out.

No matter how you cut it, shaking the asteroid takes lots of energy, and seemingly technobabble, but a weapon like those bombs will mess up a ship real good.

It isn't Londo's job as ambassador to B5 to know the yield of the bombs used by Sherradin. Not even Ivonnova knew the whole story.

Londo lived through the Earth/Minbari war, and as an ambassador it is his job to know what the people he is deal with can do. He also gets a promotion to Minister of Planetary Security. A guy like Lando also has lots of spies seemingly everywhere.

So you admit that the effects may be off, because he is embellishing it to entertain some kids, and yet you take the effects at face value...?

More like the scene is what kids think the scene should look like.

I try to only take effects that are as consistent as possible. Hence I don't accept the Hoth Asteroid Special effects either, but accept the slave I's main guns.

Even if the effects are off, Lando was the Minister of planetary security, and had spies everywhere. He should have a good idea as to what kind of firepower the EA used.

If the asteroids were made of volatile stuff, then that throws off the firepower calcs for turbolasers. If they were not, then that indicates that SDs can suffer catastrophic chain reaction explosions from asteroid impacts that can destroy the entire bridge of a star destroyer.

We have the vaporize a small town quote.

Did you notice that the source you give for the shield generator, also lists the tower domes as shield generators? Considering that you apparently consider this diagram to be cannon, does this mean you will finally admit that the bridge deflector shields of the SSD were taken out by a few piddling shots from some A-Wings?

If the A-wings brought down the shields it was only after the rebels blasted the bleep out of the SSD first.

Considering that the main reactor of a SD is exposed on the underside, one wonders if it would happen if a Sharlin hit in the belly... :)

Likely nothing that would not have happened if they shot the top at most if an ISD is designed like an Venator.

[Lucky]

In Ep II we see flak exploding behind the jedi starfighter, we routinely see flak explode near ships which would have impacted the ship itself if it hadn't detonated prematurely. Blaster/Turbolaser flak seems to be inconsistent at best, we never see a fighter get downed by flak explosions, in fact, we never see anything more then superficial burns, even in an atmosphere against unshielded targets (Hoth), where the only shots that did anything were direct hits.

Flak shakes the target so it does something.

Even Deltawings would give a TIE a run for their money, as they can mount missiles and may have rear turrets on some models. Furies have superior turning capability, are less bulky, have better targeting computers, have an escape pod, and are airtight (the suit is redundant). When ships like Nials get involved the comparison becomes so lopsided it is funny.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16471&query=raider
(source for raiders variants with rear guns)

TIE pilots can eject as I recall. It at least kind of looks like a TIE pilot ejected in TESB during the Hoth asteroid chase.

You are going to have to provide evidence of Babylon 5 fighters being superior. Heck, there really isn't any reason for StarFury to be notably better then Delta wing

I don't take word of god as evidence. They didn't bother to show a rear facing gun on the model after all.
http://images.wikia.com/babylon5/images ... ighter.gif
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Assuming that the main guns of the ATAT are designed for taking down fighters as well as infantry, bunkers, etc. (considering they do seem to be some of the most accurate shots in SW when it comes to this role) They don't seem to be particularly powerful, and yet unshielded speeders go down about as easily as x-wings and y-wings do to TIEs. (1-2 shots vs about double that amount) Shields definitely seem to have an impact, but not by a whole lot.

AT-AT have dial a yield weapons as shown in the movies. They used full power to destroy the reactor at Hoth, but lower settings on everything else for some reason.

The only reason an a star wars force may not fire at full power is to conserve energy/fuel as shown in "Supply Lines", but that was no reason to think that at Hoth the AT-AT had to worry about fuel.

At any rate, the scenario is pitting nials vs TIEs, not furies vs X-wings, so fighter shields are a non-issue.

Since Nail are comparable to the crappy Starfury I doubt it would be all that good.

TIE go head to head with X-Wing, and seem to be faster, but care a little less firepower.

TIE bombers should be comparable to Y-wing if not better since they are both bombers, and the Y-wing was the old bomber of choice for the Republic/Empire during the Clone War.

Again, the movie (despite being one of my faves) has a lot of inconsistencies. Notably, the other cruisers do not show in the movie, nor are the even mentioned. Two mines are used to take out the BS. In the show, he does not give a figure on the megaton yield of the mines, or the number used.

They don't really conflict since Sheridan was rather vague on what he did.

Minbari sensors must suck given what Sheridan says. since they could not see the hundreds of zillions of bombs. ^_^

Rebel fighters attack ATATs on Hoth, of course. Speeders were unshielded. We see what ATAT guns can do to the ground. 1-2 shots to kill a speeder. In space, TIEs kill shielded rebel fighters in only a few more shots on average. Unknown how many turbolasers it takes to kill a rebel fighter, but they can presumably take at least a few, considering that we see shield flashes from the front of the canopies in the DS run.

Here's what the official Star Wars site has to say: http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicle/snowspeeder/

The speeders are never referred to as fighters as I recall, and are barely working during the movie.

It often only takes one direct hit to kill a fighter even when they have shields, but that in no way tells us how powerful the kill shot was

Air would matter in the case of flak explosions, but the droid was hit with the actual bolt. Considering how few shots it takes to kill a rebel fighter, this means one of a few things: rebel fighters are extremely flimsy, have highly unstable reactors/munitions/etc on board, or that TIEs have weak/unreliable weapons. All of those point to the possibility that a fury/other b5 fighter wouldn't have much difference in difficulty killing one.

Blasters seem to often drill straight through/into things, and even your much loved starfury have things that are very volatile like fuel, and any hit on a fighter will likely be something vital. It's rather common for a blaster to make a hole straight through a person.

We see R2-D2 get hit, it's "head" gets blown-up, but we don't know what happened to his insides. They had a hard time fixing him as I recall, and most people would have likely scrapped him.

Do keep in mind most sources show TIE to be sturdy enough to land on their solar panels, and those flimsy X-wings can pretty much crash in water, and only need to be lifted out of the water. Star Wars craft are not flimsy.

They are proof that capital ships are capable of more, but are not necessarily proof that capital ships use them regularly. Indeed, we never see SDs or rebel ships using anything faster firing then the quad guns on the falcon, they seem to prefer using TLs in all occasions except the falcon.

We know that Venators needs to stop firing their light guns in order to fire at full power. Less guns firing should point to higher powered shots.

Again, it is like looking at a Nial and saying that since they have such firepower, it's perfectly possible that there are raider and fury variants that mount that kind of firepower. Slave I is an outlier, as Jango is a professional and presumably very wealthy bounty hunter with the best that money can buy.

You do realize that Slave-I is not a one of a kind craft, right?

There is no reason to think that the AA guns on a capital ship won't be at least as powerful as the guns on Slave-I.

...so she's talking about pulse cannons...inside the hanger....You are aware that we never see pulse fire from the hanger, right? That video showed the pulse cannons next to the bridge firing. Way to prove my point for me! Unless you can prove that there is an identical model inside the hanger to the one seen firing in that vid, the 200 MW figure is irrelevant.

There is no sign of internal weapons on Babylon 5, and only a moron would put any on the inside of the station that could harm a ship since the internals are so delicate. Remember what happened the time that Narn transport had a minor accident, and people died.

Most people would take that as proof that the starfuries caused the hull breaches, considering that the fires did not appear until after they strafed it. At any rate, irrelevant now that you have failed to provide evidence that the interceptors are 200 mw.

Interceptors would logically be weaker then pulse cannons, and they were overheating before Babylon 5 fired on the Centauri warship.

The first hit to the lefthand side is done by a starfury, this spot is later hit by an interceptor, and then a bunch more times by starfuries. Of course, you aren't claiming that the interceptors only exploited damage already done by a starfury, only that the starfuries added to the damage done by the interceptors. Presumably because then you can say that the 200 mw interceptors killed it. Nevermind that B5 has several kinds of weapon platforms that fire blue pulses, and that you have failed to prove that any of them are the same model as the 200 mw one in the hanger. Hell, it could be something as small as the pulse weapon that Garibaldi uses in the dream sequence in S5.

The interceptors had already overheated by the time Babylon 5 opens fire on the Centauri warship.
4:13

At 4:21 we see the Starfury plasma pulses explode when they hit the warship, but there are no fires. This is similar the the strafing run on the Omega destroyers. The Starfurys only weakened the armor.

4:35 we see the new interceptors, pulse cannons, and what ever that large bore gun is fire on the warship. It doesn't matter what gun fired, but they can't all have been interceptors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

The asteroid has at least some tunnels in it. We don't know the exact composition of it, or how much space is being taken up by the worm. The tunnel is going to be a natural weak point in the structure, and could be expected to take more damage. The bombers cause no visible damage when they hit the surface, only cause some slight tremors.

The asteroid Han hid in was a solid and stable hunk of rock, and the Empire wanted the Falcon's crew alive. The bombs were meant to smoke the Falcon out.

No matter how you cut it, shaking the asteroid takes lots of energy, and seemingly technobabble, but a weapon like those bombs will mess up a ship real good.

It isn't Londo's job as ambassador to B5 to know the yield of the bombs used by Sherradin. Not even Ivonnova knew the whole story.

Londo lived through the Earth/Minbari war, and as an ambassador it is his job to know what the people he is deal with can do. He also gets a promotion to Minister of Planetary Security. A guy like Lando also has lots of spies seemingly everywhere.

So you admit that the effects may be off, because he is embellishing it to entertain some kids, and yet you take the effects at face value...?

More like the scene is what kids think the scene should look like.

I try to only take effects that are as consistent as possible. Hence I don't accept the Hoth Asteroid Special effects either, but accept the slave I's main guns.

Even if the effects are off, Lando was the Minister of planetary security, and had spies everywhere. He should have a good idea as to what kind of firepower the EA used.

If the asteroids were made of volatile stuff, then that throws off the firepower calcs for turbolasers. If they were not, then that indicates that SDs can suffer catastrophic chain reaction explosions from asteroid impacts that can destroy the entire bridge of a star destroyer.

We have the vaporize a small town quote.

Did you notice that the source you give for the shield generator, also lists the tower domes as shield generators? Considering that you apparently consider this diagram to be cannon, does this mean you will finally admit that the bridge deflector shields of the SSD were taken out by a few piddling shots from some A-Wings?

If the A-wings brought down the shields it was only after the rebels blasted the bleep out of the SSD first.

Considering that the main reactor of a SD is exposed on the underside, one wonders if it would happen if a Sharlin hit in the belly... :)

Likely nothing that would not have happened if they shot the top at most if an ISD is designed like an Venator.

[Enterprise E]

If the A-wings brought down the shields it was only after the rebels blasted the bleep out of the SSD first.

Actually, we never see the rebels open fire on the Super Star Destroyer, before or after the shields are taken down. I've just gone back and rewatched the scene. We hear Ackbar bive the order and the scene immediately cuts to the attack run by the A-Wings. Even after the shields are down, we later see the SSD firing off into the distance, and we see no rebel ships firing on it despite the fact that a Mon Calamari Cruiser is approaching the now unshielded ship and could have, and should have, been firing on it.

[Lucky]

If the A-wings brought down the shields it was only after the rebels blasted the bleep out of the SSD first.

Actually, we never see the rebels open fire on the Super Star Destroyer, before or after the shields are taken down. I've just gone back and rewatched the scene. We hear Ackbar bive the order and the scene immediately cuts to the attack run by the A-Wings. Even after the shields are down, we later see the SSD firing off into the distance, and we see no rebel ships firing on it despite the fact that a Mon Calamari Cruiser is approaching the now unshielded ship and could have, and should have, been firing on it.

Rebels were blasting the crap out of the SSD before the order was given, and do to the cut we can't know how long after the order was given the A-Wings scene happens.
6:16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGMvadAFqLQ

Besides we see Star Destroyers having the samme thing happen to them with no problem.

[Enterprise E]

I really don't know where you get the proof that the Rebel fleet was blasting the stuffing out of the Super Star Destroyer. I just rewatched the scene, and the Rebels weren't exactly opening up on the Super Star Destroyer with everything they had at any time. Remember, it took more than a dozen Concussion Missiles to destroy the shield generator. Another Star Destroyer was also seen to have lost one of its shield generators early in the battle after the order to close to point blank range was given, and the only other hit we see scored on a shield generator is with a single missile/torpedo, a far cry from the dozen and more we saw destroy the Executor's shield generator. And there's still the point that the Mon Calamari Cruiser that was approaching it not firing on it once it lost its bridge deflector shields. I would have expected it to be opening fire on a hole in the shields, or at least close to a hole since the shields around the hole would likely be weakened. We only see a few shield impacts from the ship the whole battle, most of them just before the order to open up was given to it. And remember, there were already starfighters close by, so chances were that there was not a lot of time from when the order was given to the time the A-Wings destroyed the shield generator. All in all, I think that the lack of protection given to the shield generators of Imperial starships is a tremendous weakness and may give the Sharlins and Whitestars a fighting chance where normally, the Super Star Destroyer would likely be able to destroy these vessels without suffering too much damage.

[Mr. Oragahn]

TIE pilots can eject as I recall. It at least kind of looks like a TIE pilot ejected in TESB during the Hoth asteroid chase.

That's like saying passengers can eject from a car when it crashed into a wall. The TIE smashed into an asteroid almost as big as itself, and obviously far more massive (it didn't even change trajectory).
Plus, according to the EU, TIEs are totally expandable. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a reference about those ships having minimal life support. Heck, pilots have to wear breathing masks.

The asteroid Han hid in was a solid and stable hunk of rock, and the Empire wanted the Falcon's crew alive. The bombs were meant to smoke the Falcon out.

No matter how you cut it, shaking the asteroid takes lots of energy, and seemingly technobabble, but a weapon like those bombs will mess up a ship real good.

The asteroid was not shaked. The vibrations caused by the shock-bombs were simply spreading through its mass. Explosions tend to do that, and rock does a great job at transmitting vibrations.

You do realize that Slave-I is not a one of a kind craft, right?

There is no reason to think that the AA guns on a capital ship won't be at least as powerful as the guns on Slave-I.

The guns would be more powerful, but the rest were rare weapons, especially the mines. The missiles themselves weren't particularly impressive.

[User1555]

Flak shakes the target so it does something.

Sure, it does something, it causes superficial burns to the paint job as seen on the Hoth snowspeeders.

TIE pilots can eject as I recall. It at least kind of looks like a TIE pilot ejected in TESB during the Hoth asteroid chase.

You are going to have to provide evidence of Babylon 5 fighters being superior. Heck, there really isn't any reason for StarFury to be notably better then Delta wing

I don't take word of god as evidence. They didn't bother to show a rear facing gun on the model after all.
http://images.wikia.com/babylon5/images ... ighter.gif
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Starfuries are better in space then the deltawings due to being specialized for space combat, while the Deltas are built for space and atmospheric flight, word of god confirms this: http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13779&query=raider

Starfuries have better thrusters, and can perform maneuvers that Deltas cannot. Furthermore, they do not have the engine weakness that the Deltas have (they can lose an engine or three and survive, as long as the body isn't hit)

Furies have superior targeting computers (compare what we at yavin to what we see in "A View From the Gallery"

The have escape pods of a sort, which TIEs lack.

They have much better turning capabilities.

Prove that TIEs have ejection systems? Otherwise I don't see how this is any different then what happens at 3:35: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHQnnoU4i5w

So if you don't accept word of god when it comes to B5, can we safely disregard anything that Lucas says as well? Seems a bit of a double standard seeing how readily you seem to pull sources from the EU.

AT-AT have dial a yield weapons as shown in the movies. They used full power to destroy the reactor at Hoth, but lower settings on everything else for some reason.

The only reason an a star wars force may not fire at full power is to conserve energy/fuel as shown in "Supply Lines", but that was no reason to think that at Hoth the AT-AT had to worry about fuel.

You have provided no proof that lower firepower was used on the ground forces then was used on the speeders, or that the 'maximum firepower' setting was even a dial-able setting, instead of a toggle.

Since Nail are comparable to the crappy Starfury I doubt it would be all that good.

TIE go head to head with X-Wing, and seem to be faster, but care a little less firepower.

TIE bombers should be comparable to Y-wing if not better since they are both bombers, and the Y-wing was the old bomber of choice for the Republic/Empire during the Clone War.

Rebel fighters are miles better then the crappy TIEs the empire fields. In every engagement outside of Yavin they get busted up hard by the rebels. Pretty sure the EU supports most TIE variants outside of the defender being almost universally awful except for speed.

Comparing Nials to Starfuries is laughable. You must not remember the battle of the line, or must have really selective memory to make that comparison. Numerously stated evidence has proven that they have capabilities far in access of starfuries or TIEs.

They don't really conflict since Sheridan was rather vague on what he did.

Minbari sensors must suck given what Sheridan says. since they could not see the hundreds of zillions of bombs. ^_^

There are no support cruisers in the engagement, this alone is a serious conflict with the events we are shown.

Even if the effects are off, Lando was the Minister of planetary security, and had spies everywhere. He should have a good idea as to what kind of firepower the EA used.

Once again, he is only a reliable narrator when it suits you.

Here's what the official Star Wars site has to say: http://www.starwars.com/databank/vehicle/snowspeeder/

The speeders are never referred to as fighters as I recall, and are barely working during the movie.

It often only takes one direct hit to kill a fighter even when they have shields, but that in no way tells us how powerful the kill shot was

Suddenly speeders have shields again? At any rate, the speeders behave like fighters, so it is perfectly fair to call them fighters.

Blasters seem to often drill straight through/into things, and even your much loved starfury have things that are very volatile like fuel, and any hit on a fighter will likely be something vital. It's rather common for a blaster to make a hole straight through a person.

We see R2-D2 get hit, it's "head" gets blown-up, but we don't know what happened to his insides. They had a hard time fixing him as I recall, and most people would have likely scrapped him.

Do keep in mind most sources show TIE to be sturdy enough to land on their solar panels, and those flimsy X-wings can pretty much crash in water, and only need to be lifted out of the water. Star Wars craft are not flimsy.

Every time I can think of from the OT has TIEs in racks, unless you care to provide an example of them landing on their wings in the movies? Seems like it would be a bit hard for a TIE pilot to get up to the cockpit if they worked that way, what with the hatch on top and all. From what I understand, TIEs are usually depicted as being able to land on their wings in video games, for gameplay purposes, perhaps that is where you got the idea from? X-wings have shields, and luke's x-wing still had to be fixed up after being pulled out of the swamp.

You realize that starfuries can survive losing an engine, right? TIEs tend to explode if a blaster canon so much as sneezes in their direction, the only exception being vaders TIE, which supposedly has shields.

We know that Venators needs to stop firing their light guns in order to fire at full power. Less guns firing should point to higher powered shots.

Where is this from?

You do realize that Slave-I is not a one of a kind craft, right?

There is no reason to think that the AA guns on a capital ship won't be at least as powerful as the guns on Slave-I.

It could very well be a one-of-a-kind craft, going by how many of them we see in the movies. (1)

Slave 1 is an outlier, we never see any other ship of its size with such an impressive armament. The fastest firing blaster canons, the only sonic mines in the movies, and the most impressive targeting computers, and missiles we see as well. A jedi starfighter, a ship presumably of higher quality then the run-of the mill fighter of the era, piloted by a jedi knight, fled rather then engage it. Definitely an outlier.

There is no sign of internal weapons on Babylon 5, and only a moron would put any on the inside of the station that could harm a ship since the internals are so delicate. Remember what happened the time that Narn transport had a minor accident, and people died.

Susan threatened them with pulse canons in the hanger, seems pretty straightforward to me. There is no reason to believe that it is on the scale of the pulse-canon interceptors outside the ship.

The interceptors had already overheated by the time Babylon 5 opens fire on the Centauri warship.
4:13

At 4:21 we see the Starfury plasma pulses explode when they hit the warship, but there are no fires. This is similar the the strafing run on the Omega destroyers. The Starfurys only weakened the armor.

4:35 we see the new interceptors, pulse cannons, and what ever that large bore gun is fire on the warship. It doesn't matter what gun fired, but they can't all have been interceptors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDhF9sxDm7E

It doesn't matter because you have failed to prove that the centauri cruiser was hit with 200 mw pulse canons.

The large quad-barreled thick 'tube' interceptors are seen firing on both incoming fire and the centauri ship itself, which would seem to indicate that either not all of the interceptors overheated at the same rate.

We only see pulse canon shots hit the centauri ship, we don't see the red particle guns or the plasma canon hit.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the strafing run right after B5s pulse canons hit the ship at 4:45 when you listed all of those times from the clip. We only see fires after this point.

We have the vaporize a small town quote.

You did not address any of the examples I just listed. Movie level canon seems to contradict the book quote.

If the A-wings brought down the shields it was only after the rebels blasted the bleep out of the SSD first.

No proof, We only see one capital ship, ackabar's, fire a shot anywhere near the SSD, and it does not connect. The only shots we see connecting with the SSD are the blaster canon shots fired by the A-wings.

Likely nothing that would not have happened if they shot the top at most if an ISD is designed like an Venator.

What does this have to do with the quote you were responding to? The main reactor of SDs are exposed on the bottom, Venators do not have exposed reactors, on the top or the bottom.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Please edit your post, you attributed many quotes to me while none are of my own typing. :)

[User1555]

Whoops, They should all be attributed to Lucky now. Must have clicked 'quote' on your reply after highlighting parts from Lucky's post.

[Lucky]

Sure, it does something, it causes superficial burns to the paint job as seen on the Hoth snowspeeders.

It makes flying harder, and many hand grenade design do the same thing

Starfuries are better in space then the deltawings due to being specialized for space combat, while the Deltas are built for space and atmospheric flight, word of god confirms this: http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13779&query=raider

Word of god isn't really proof.

Starfuries have better thrusters, and can perform maneuvers that Deltas cannot. Furthermore, they do not have the engine weakness that the Deltas have (they can lose an engine or three and survive, as long as the body isn't hit)

And any logical design would have the deltas being able to do stuff star fury can in space do to thrust vectoring. A sane design would have Star Fury full of water to help with G-forces, but the EA are kind of stupid that way.

Furies have superior targeting computers (compare what we at yavin to what we see in "A View From the Gallery"

Provide proof.

The have escape pods of a sort, which TIEs lack.

Why would TIE and X-wing need escape pods? The suits are sealed. The pilot is just ejected into space.
2:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rnyWNoFb58

They have much better turning capabilities.

I suppose that's why they just float in pretty much straight lines, and throw themselves at AA.

So if you don't accept word of god when it comes to B5, can we safely disregard anything that Lucas says as well? Seems a bit of a double standard seeing how readily you seem to pull sources from the EU.

Novelizations of the movies and scripts are G-level canon, and can only be over ruled by the movies. Heck, Lucas put his name as author of at least one of the novelizations.

You have provided no proof that lower firepower was used on the ground forces then was used on the speeders, or that the 'maximum firepower' setting was even a dial-able setting, instead of a toggle.

The generator was shot with a full power bolt. Everything else at Hoth was shot with a lower setting for an unknown reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6uQ1ROQm0k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhpS69eAXrU

Rebel fighters are miles better then the crappy TIEs the empire fields. In every engagement outside of Yavin they get busted up hard by the rebels. Pretty sure the EU supports most TIE variants outside of the defender being almost universally awful except for speed.

The movies say it's the pilots that matter more then the fighters since Ties wiped out a larger rebel force at Yaven.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/ln_starfighter

Comparing Nials to Starfuries is laughable. You must not remember the battle of the line, or must have really selective memory to make that comparison. Numerously stated evidence has proven that they have capabilities far in access of starfuries or TIEs.

You are going to have to prove Nails are notably better then Starfury. While Nails have better tech I have never seen anything in the show to show Nails perform better then Star Fury in combat.

Provide the evidence!

There are no support cruisers in the engagement, this alone is a serious conflict with the events we are shown.

They were not support craft. They were full on Minbari war ships, Sharlin most likely.

Once again, he is only a reliable narrator when it suits you.

You really should not be dishonest.

It is Londo's job to know things like the yields of the weapons used by the other powers, and you should know that. He also has a very efficient spy network.

You're the one who want to cherry pick. You want to ignore dialog from a knowledgeable source in place of visuals that are likely things imagined by little kids, and are most certainly not things Londo could have seen because they give you the big numbers you want.

Suddenly speeders have shields again? At any rate, the speeders behave like fighters, so it is perfectly fair to call them fighters.

You're the one who says they have shields. There is nothing in any of my claims that can't be accounted for with a little(figuratively speaking) armor.

Every time I can think of from the OT has TIEs in racks, unless you care to provide an example of them landing on their wings in the movies?

When do we ever see a TIE land in any way in the movies?

Seems like it would be a bit hard for a TIE pilot to get up to the cockpit if they worked that way, what with the hatch on top and all.

One could say the same thing about an X-wing. A human would have a hard time getting into the cockpit of just about any fighter in Star Wars without at least a ladder.

From what I understand, TIEs are usually depicted as being able to land on their wings in video games, for gameplay purposes, perhaps that is where you got the idea from?

I'm thinking of comics.

X-wings have shields, and luke's x-wing still had to be fixed up after being pulled out of the swamp.

The shields did nothing when Luke splashed down on Dagobah. They might not have been up since Luke hit a lot of tree branches.

What makes you think Luke had to fix anything on his X-Wing after Yoda lifted it out of the water? Luke didn't have tools or spare parts remember.

You realize that starfuries can survive losing an engine, right?

You mean be mission killed. The Starfury you are thinking of was mission killed, and needed help from his buddies.

TIEs tend to explode if a blaster canon so much as sneezes in their direction, the only exception being vaders TIE, which supposedly has shields.

No, TIE only explode if they take a solid hit or two like all the fighters in Babylon 5.

Vader's TIE was a prototype/expairamental model that was the basis for the later models like the TIE Defender.

Where is this from?

"Destroy Malevolence"

Obi won orders full power to the guns, and then fewer guns are firing. It should also be noted that the bolts don't look different.

It could very well be a one-of-a-kind craft, going by how many of them we see in the movies. (1)

Slave 1 is an outlier, we never see any other ship of its size with such an impressive armament. The fastest firing blaster canons, the only sonic mines in the movies, and the most impressive targeting computers, and missiles we see as well. A jedi starfighter, a ship presumably of higher quality then the run-of the mill fighter of the era, piloted by a jedi knight, fled rather then engage it. Definitely an outlier.

By that reasoning we should assume every craft in any series we see only one of is one of a kind no matter what. The Star Wars setting is galaxy spanning, and from the movies and TV shows we just don't have enough information about Slave-I.

The only logical choice is to include the EU which says Slave-I is an old design that has been upgraded over the years to keep up with modern ships..

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starsh ... index.html

If Slave-I has been constantly upgraded then nothing on it is likely one of a kind. The Fetts are bounty hunters, not engineers.

Susan threatened them with pulse canons in the hanger, seems pretty straightforward to me. There is no reason to believe that it is on the scale of the pulse-canon interceptors outside the ship.

Ivanova: Really? I've got a 200-megawatt pulse cannon in the forward cargo bay that says otherwise.

Ivanova is talking about the cargo bay that is above the CNC

There are no pulse cannon interceptors. You are making stuff up.

It doesn't matter because you have failed to prove that the centauri cruiser was hit with 200 mw pulse canons.

You have failed to show Babylon 5 having more then one model of pulse cannon.

The dialog shows the 200 megawatt pulse cannons to be designed to shoot ships, not people. That means the gun will be facing outside the station, and firing them inside the station would cause fires and other hazards that would threaten the station.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoCvgAA ... re=related
A lone Starfury of some type can lower the hull integrity of an Omega Destroyer by 20% with a single burst.
1:07

It sure looks like those Pulse Cannons are coming out of the forward cargo bay, or very close to it to the point one might say they are in the cargo bay.
1:35

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLeE4YOdrkY&NR=1
See the bleeping huge cargo bay that opens into space.
0:03

The large quad-barreled thick 'tube' interceptors are seen firing on both incoming fire and the centauri ship itself, which would seem to indicate that either not all of the interceptors overheated at the same rate.

We only see pulse canon shots hit the centauri ship, we don't see the red particle guns or the plasma canon hit.

The older model interceptors that shoot reddish bolts never fire on the Centauri ships.
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid1.png
Why even bring them up?

You need to prove Babylon 5 has a weapon called plasma cannons. You seem to be talking about the guns that shoot something the looks sort of like a Narn energy mine.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid2.png

For what reason these are the only guns we see hitting the Centauri warship is unknown.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... eGrid3.png
Perhaps it is a VFX goof, or perhaps they are the only guns with the needed range to hit the ship.

You seem to be conveniently ignoring the strafing run right after B5s pulse canons hit the ship at 4:45 when you listed all of those times from the clip. We only see fires after this point.

No, I am not forgetting. You are changing your argument.

You said the StarFury caused hull breach on their own when it was Babylon causing massive amounts of damage that let the StarFury cause the hull breaches.

YOu also ignore the in-universe fact that reddish flames only happen when there is an Earth like atmosphere to burn. The white flames are not hull breaches, but the StarFury's own shot.

You did not address any of the examples I just listed. Movie level canon seems to contradict the book quote.

I ignored pointless drivel that you have like most of your claims failed to prove.

Movie canon gives us no real idea how powerful the guns on warships are. We don't know the properties of the materials the hulls are made from, the fighting is happening in a vacuum so the bolts should look like flashes when they hit, bolts can as movies level canon be set to do different things such as explode like flak shells and tunnel into the target, the guns are dial a yield, the yield of bolts and shield strength is at least partly dependent on fuel, and we only have vague ideas as to what the ships defenses are.

T-canon is over ruled by G-canon.

No proof, We only see one capital ship, ackabar's, fire a shot anywhere near the SSD, and it does not connect. The only shots we see connecting with the SSD are the blaster canon shots fired by the A-wings.

We see a number of rebel fighters try the same thing the A-Wing did, but fail to even get through the Star Destroyer's shields.

The fact of the matter is we don't know why the SSD's shields went down, but we see no sign they are up when the A-Wing s shoot the shield generators. The we are only shown tiny clips of the battle of Endor. Stuff happens between cuts, and while we are being shown other parts of the battle, and to ignore that is dishonest.

What does this have to do with the quote you were responding to? The main reactor of SDs are exposed on the bottom, Venators do not have exposed reactors, on the top or the bottom.

You want to assume that the bulge that is the reactor is not as if not more heavily armored then the rest of the ship. The Rebels at Endor are never seen targeting the reactor bulge in spite of having years of experience fighting Star Destroyers, spies in the Imperial navy, spies in the company who makes Star Destroyers, professional ship designers on their side, and actual military personnel who would have worked on them.

No one shoots the bulge. No one who should know if it is a weak spot treats it as a weak spot. They all attack the conning tower.

[Lucky]

That's like saying passengers can eject from a car when it crashed into a wall. The TIE smashed into an asteroid almost as big as itself, and obviously far more massive (it didn't even change trajectory).
Plus, according to the EU, TIEs are totally expandable. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a reference about those ships having minimal life support. Heck, pilots have to wear breathing masks.

By that reasoning ejecting from an X-wing is pointless.

The EU is at odds with G canon when it comes to TIE since they make mincemeat out of the rebels in Episode 4.

The asteroid was not shaked. The vibrations caused by the shock-bombs were simply spreading through its mass. Explosions tend to do that, and rock does a great job at transmitting vibrations.

Is it possible for you to rephrase this? It looks like you are saying that the asteroid was shaking because of the bombs, and at the same time it looks like you are saying the bombs did nothing noticeable to the asteroid so I must be misunderstanding something.

The guns would be more powerful, but the rest were rare weapons, especially the mines. The missiles themselves weren't particularly impressive.

I was only talking about the guns. I specifically said guns.

[Lucky]

I really don't know where you get the proof that the Rebel fleet was blasting the stuffing out of the Super Star Destroyer. I just rewatched the scene, and the Rebels weren't exactly opening up on the Super Star Destroyer with everything they had at any time. Remember, it took more than a dozen Concussion Missiles to destroy the shield generator.

The space battle at Endor lasted hours didn't it? The ground battle lasted hours didn't? We're just shown a small parts to give us a general idea of what's going on, and some of those clips are happening at the same time.

All the A-wings used were piddly weak blasters that we see are useless against Star Destroyer shields.

Remember, it took more than a dozen Concussion Missiles to destroy the shield generator.

All we see the A-wings use on the SSD were piddly weak blasters that we see are useless against Star Destroyer shields.

Another Star Destroyer was also seen to have lost one of its shield generators early in the battle after the order to close to point blank range was given, and the only other hit we see scored on a shield generator is with a single missile/torpedo, a far cry from the dozen and more we saw destroy the Executor's shield generator. And there's still the point that the Mon Calamari Cruiser that was approaching it not firing on it once it lost its bridge deflector shields.

Where is there a torpedo shown to be used on anything other then the DS-II?

We either:

1) Assume combat between cuts

2)Assume the shield strength varies wildly from Star Destroyer to Star Destroyer.

3)Assume the shields were not up for some unknown reason.

4)Assume shields need to "warm up" before they are effective, and for some reason the Imps waited far to long.

5) Things just weren't working for unknown reasons.

1 seems likely even if you go with 2, 3, 4, or 5.

2 doesn't really make sense because then Imperial ships would not have a good rep, and honestly we see Star Wars generally makes products of consistent quality.

3 doesn't sit well with me since it means the Imps were to stupid to actually turn on their own shields when it was clear combat was about to happen.

4 isn't implied as far as I recall.

5 could work since there are a few force ghosts floating around

I would have expected it to be opening fire on a hole in the shields, or at least close to a hole since the shields around the hole would likely be weakened.

To my recollection you either overpower the shield, and the bolt goes through, or the shield stops the bolt until you hit it enough times to bring down the entire shield.

We only see a few shield impacts from the ship the whole battle, most of them just before the order to open up was given to it. And remember, there were already starfighters close by, so chances were that there was not a lot of time from when the order was given to the time the A-Wings destroyed the shield generator.

And this ignores that stuff was happening during the cuts.

All in all, I think that the lack of protection given to the shield generators of Imperial starships is a tremendous weakness and may give the Sharlins and Whitestars a fighting chance where normally, the Super Star Destroyer would likely be able to destroy these vessels without suffering too much damage.

Happening to two or three ships for unknown reasons is not a major weakness since the shield generator is under the shield.

[Enterprise E]

Those weren't blasters or lasers that were used against the Executor's shields. The sound effects were different from the normal rebel fighter laser cannons' sound effects, and the projectiles traveled too slowly for them to be blasters, from what I could tell. And while the battle did last hours, there was the issue that at first, only the fighters were attacking. And in all of the scenes that we do see, besides the two A-Wings using their missiles, I still can't see them merely being blasters, to destroy the shields we never once see any rebel ships firing on the Executor. The only real exchange that I remember seeing was a Rebel frigate up against an Imperial Star Destroyer. Not even when the bridge shields are down and a Mon Calamari Cruiser is at point blank range of it with an opportunity to inflict incredible damage did we see anything firing on it. To me, that is very telling about the fact that the shields were still up at the time, especially with the officer telling Admiral Piett that they lost their bridge deflector shield, as well as strength of the SSD's shields, at least around the shield generators.