Starfleet Jedi

the second white council from LOTR lead by Saruman and Galadriel (backed up by all the Istari) take on the Jedi Council

scenario 1, as seen in the phantom menace

scenario 2; as seen in ATOC

scenario 3: ROTS

how does this go?

bonus scenario: the council has to fend off Gothmog and Durins bane and Gothmogs troll guard

Archangels vs Supermen? Jedi council gets crushed in all scenarios.

well five of them are

the rest are really ancient elves one of which..is just a fisherman king lol (also the oldest sentient being besides a tree in the universe (not counting the angels))

Depends. Are the most powerful ones from the Fullbrite Council capable of magical area effects which could take care of several Jedi at once? It's not like all the Jedi in the Council we saw in the movie are masters of combat or offensive. Yoda and Mace are brutes, but many others sucked. Dinohead for example couldn't deflect all bolts from Jango's pistols and got nailed fairly quickly.
I don't want to get into a deep debate about who sucks or not in that Jedi Council, but it's necessary to keep in mind that they're not going to be trained in all disciplines in equal measure.
And frankly, from the little I've read about LOTR (books), the higher ups can be truly dangerous to entire legions of men or creatures.

Can we get a bit more details on both sides plueez?

well the ep 1 side had two telepaths I think as well as well as Yoda and Mace Yaddle was supposed to be bad ass as was vander dont recall any feats

as for the other side Radagast was sort of a bum chilled with the birds smoked some pipeweed and what have you the two blue Wizards we know very little on other then them likely going into the east and either freeing Saurons Dominion there or diminishing it..or failing

Galadriel destroyed Saurons fortress at Dul Gurdor personally as in with her own bare hands and the narration put the destruction as really brutal like laying it bare and scattering orcs to the winds..if not out right mulching them, was a powerful telepath and some what precognative..and could manipulate the environment in her own turf at least (though it was limited to her place of power) and was a master at mental defenses even Sauron a god who specialized in mental torture could never breach her defenses I think that will help her allot here

Sarumans got little in the way of combat feats in fact he's got none..but he has extremely long range spell casting..and his voice rape..was very potent even when depowered..guy may even have made his own ring of power-they need to shut him up

Cirdan is the oldest or second oldest sentient left in middle earth and is over twenty or so thousand years old (likely more he's about as old as the Jedi order and old republic)..He's basically prescient and a strategist..and his perception seems to be able to see through everything..but thats about it apart from being the only one of the first agers aside from Galadriel to not loose they're realm to Melkor and being basically..a great defense type commander..he's not done over much

Elrond is also a very powerful elf along the same stats as Galadriel maybe slightly weaker..he's also a crack fencer with allot of life experience

Gandalfs best feat involves falling at terminal velocity then fighting for like..seven days straight against Durins bane the last day the final battle was said to look like a raging storm-basically endurance and durability and power..he can also use his ring of power to boost the moral of his side

Basically..it's four unknowns..and three known power houses vs Yoda and Mace and company

you can use CW feats if you like..

hopefully that helps

Yes, it does, thank you.
Not sure if this helps the Jedi though.
It's precisely the kind of stuff I understood these higher ups of LOTR were capable of.
The advantage the Jedi have is that they're all warriors and have absolutely lethal weapons, capacities to close distance very rapidly, very strong willed and capable of TK. They could beat the endurance and power creep of Gandalf from the get go, but if one of the White Council guys get to see a comrade fall to the Jedi, they'll understand that they're dealing with some serious shit there.
The massive feats achieved by Galadriel against hordes is partly due to her fighting creatures which even a Jedi could mow down ... outside of the problem of having to cope with a barrage of arrows, which would prevent a Jedi from doing anything else but either dodging or using TK for a Force wall but doing nothing else, and perhaps throwing the arrows at the infantry... mass murder!
Plus Gandalf's terminal velocity thing isn't that impressive when you see what Obi-Wan achieved in ROTS. OK, Gandalf might have hit harder, but it's still impressive. Whatever they hit isn't important, because if the Jedi couldn't slow his descent at the right time, water would have crushed him upon impact anyway.

What really convinced me that there was trouble ahead for the Jedi were Galadriel's feats, really. I didn't know if the others were on par with that, but all I've read about what she achieved, plus the recent bits from the two threads at SBC really had me understand how dangerous she is. Although I'm not sure if she achieved all that on her own or used one of the rings - my knowledge of the LOTR lore is extremely limited.
That said, resisting against Sauron, when we see what he used to be... that's damn impressive.
Yet on the other hand, it seems Sauron kept getting nerfed. I mean, he goes from like a lieutnant of Eru to some guy who gets owned because he can't do more than build himself a corpse in armour at some point in his life, for some massive battle. If Sauron's thing was corruption (well, inherited from Melkor I guess), it could explain why he sorta sucks in other departments. And corruptions is not what Jedi do anywhere, so resistance against that won't matter much in this debate.

Saruman clearly adds a layer of long range attacks, although I'm not sure how hard they are to dodge. His lightning attack is impressive, although it may take a while to prepare. If his fireballs are anything like seen in the movie, I wouldn't be worried for the Jedi. As for his voice, perhaps it would work on one Jedi (kinda big IF there), perhaps it also takes time to achieve, but how much of a game ender is it? Who succumbed to it, how long, under what circumstances, how many times can Saruman repeat that trick, can he do another one while maintaining the effects on the first victim, etc.

Finally, by your descriptions, the other guys of the WC don't seem that much of a relevant addition. Elrond might be a good fencer, but against TK and a lightsabre, he's not going to be very useful.

The WC would have been very good at support. See, the Jedi are warriors, they don't add as much to an unit of sword masters and the equivalent of archers as the WC would: Jedi would "just" be better exceptional sword masters with some combat powers. They'd be on the front anyway. The WC people, on the other hand, are far more suited standing behind units of infantry and archers (especially elves!).

So with the new bits given there, I'd say it's much more open ended than I previously thought.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, it does, thank you.
Not sure if this helps the Jedi though.
It's precisely the kind of stuff I understood these higher ups of LOTR were capable of.
The advantage the Jedi have is that they're all warriors and have absolutely lethal weapons, capacities to close distance very rapidly, very strong willed and capable of TK. They could beat the endurance and power creep of Gandalf from the get go, but if one of the White Council guys get to see a comrade fall to the Jedi, they'll understand that they're dealing with some serious shit there.

assuming one or more Jedi can focus on the guy long enough mind you..there are others present..

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The massive feats achieved by Galadriel against hordes is partly due to her fighting creatures which even a Jedi could mow down ... outside of the problem of having to cope with a barrage of arrows, which would prevent a Jedi from doing anything else but either dodging or using TK for a Force wall but doing nothing else, and perhaps throwing the arrows at the infantry... mass murder!

it was Saurons fortress when he adopted the necromancer persona and a staging point for war against silvan elves..and Galadriels kingdom..while it would have a boat load of orcs..it likely also contained..other nastier creatures..trolls wargs possibly some remnants of the black numenorians or lesser "wraiths"

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Plus Gandalf's terminal velocity thing isn't that impressive when you see what Obi-Wan achieved in ROTS. OK, Gandalf might have hit harder, but it's still impressive. Whatever they hit isn't important, because if the Jedi couldn't slow his descent at the right time, water would have crushed him upon impact anyway.

it was impressive in that he fell IIRC a mile or so and the guy whom landed ontop of him..was heavy enough that he messed up the side of a mountain when he died...but yeah obi's fall was very mpressive too mind you he was one of the more potent masters

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What really convinced me that there was trouble ahead for the Jedi were Galadriel's feats, really. I didn't know if the others were on par with that, but all I've read about what she achieved, plus the recent bits from the two threads at SBC really had me understand how dangerous she is. Although I'm not sure if she achieved all that on her own or used one of the rings - my knowledge of the LOTR lore is extremely limited.
That said, resisting against Sauron, when we see what he used to be... that's damn impressive.

allot of it would be her own personal might she did have the conviction and power to get in Feanors face and call him out on being a massive douche..when every one besides his brother..was terrified of doing it..and he likely would of killed any one who wasn't serious enough

she learned under Melian a maiar who specialized on defenses and preventing mind rape and what have you..and one of decent power (her daughter for example may have flung a region near saruons lands forward in time a few months granny weather wax style..or..at least altered the seasons) so..her control over her own turf was learned from this women..and likely she was doing in Lothlorien long before the ring

the ring allows her to prevent the passage of time..and stall the effects of entropy..it boosts her stats too

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yet on the other hand, it seems Sauron kept getting nerfed.

having god throw a continent on your face..then facing six of the strongest people alive..in relatively rapid succession tends to do that

mind you he was still extremely powerful...Denethor for example was of numenorian stock..and likely could of lived a century..and change..maybe a little more but just trying to hold off a mind rape by Sauron when he looked into the palantir for brief periods..of time aged the guy rapidly and drove him completely insane..the man also voice raped the entire continent of numenor..aside from a select few

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I mean, he goes from like a lieutnant of Eru to some guy who gets owned because he can't do more than build himself a corpse in armour at some point in his life, for some massive battle. If Sauron's thing was corruption (well, inherited from Melkor I guess), it could explain why he sorta sucks in other departments. And corruptions is not what Jedi do anywhere, so resistance against that won't matter much in this debate.

actually he was LT of Aule..his personal herald or..one of them who was the god of the forge who basically built middle earth and the LOTR universe..hence why his engineering savvy was rivaled by very few, then became Melkors..second

even at a weakened non maiar state he was still immensely powerful

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Saruman clearly adds a layer of long range attacks, although I'm not sure how hard they are to dodge. His lightning attack is impressive, although it may take a while to prepare. If his fireballs are anything like seen in the movie, I wouldn't be worried for the Jedi. As for his voice, perhaps it would work on one Jedi (kinda big IF there), perhaps it also takes time to achieve, but how much of a game ender is it? Who succumbed to it, how long, under what circumstances, how many times can Saruman repeat that trick, can he do another one while maintaining the effects on the first victim, etc.

the whole lighting thing didn't happen in the book he basically told the sky to get angry..over Caradhras..then trolled the mountain with his voice..and told it to "wake up and throw some rocks on the little guys" basically..which it did

Sarumans capacity to voice rape..ranges from inanimate objects..to..sentient trees to even people who knew he was capable of it-if you had strong will he could still subvert you but it would last..say for days or weeks..as opposed to an entire life time,

theres no reason to think it wouldn't work..to varying degrees on various masters the older more experienced ones...should be able to function through it like Gandalf and some of the fellowship did...though like i said if he can do it to rocks and clouds

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Finally, by your descriptions, the other guys of the WC don't seem that much of a relevant addition. Elrond might be a good fencer, but against TK and a lightsabre, he's not going to be very useful.

Elrond and Cirdan did..survive the fight with Sauron the guy at that point was irradiating people with his malignant..aura and at one point grabbed Gil-Galad and just incinerated his face...gil-Galad was probably the most powerful elf besides Glorfindel and Galadriel..and may of been stronger then glorf

they are very tough and the ring that elrond wields adds a measure of toughness that I think would keep him in the fight not sure about the old fart though

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The WC would have been very good at support. See, the Jedi are warriors, they don't add as much to an unit of sword masters and the equivalent of archers as the WC would: Jedi would "just" be better exceptional sword masters with some combat powers. They'd be on the front anyway. The WC people, on the other hand, are far more suited standing behind units of infantry and archers (especially elves!).

well the istari certainly where arm chair generals with the exception of Gandalf and Cirdan...preferred it that way but he had no problem leading from the front and did spend thousands of years in charge of a privateer fleet that harassed melkors supply lines like nobodies business but like you said he's more of a back of the row type leader-

Elrond Certainly wasn't he was there in the front and fought in shit load of major battles..IIRC the guy cared so much about his soldiers and the allies that he was incapable of doing anything else..i wouldn't bet on him not being an extremely skilled and experienced warrior...

Mr. Oragahn wrote:So with the new bits given there, I'd say it's much more open ended than I previously thought.

it is but they have two possibly three power houses they need to focus on..who are also going to be obscenely tough..and one guy who if covered up by the others..can be dangerous as well

Admiral Breetai wrote:likely more he's about as old as the Jedi order and old republic

Old Republic is 1000 years old, so he's older than it... several times older. Plus ...he was born in First Age, which lasted 590 years... then lived throught second age (3441 years) + Third Age (3021 years) = 7052 years. Elrond was born in First Age, Lord's Year 532. That makes him 6520 years old at end of Third Age. Yoda died at 900 years old.

But I think that it is safe to assume that Galadriel is more powerful than him, and possibly wiser (being older - born during Years of Trees, way before start of First Age - and thus more experienced, althought he seems to be better diplomat than any other elf (better understanding of other races etc.).

So not even Grand Master Yoda is match for any of LotR Elf Lords... sorry, Star Wars.

Picard wrote:

Admiral Breetai wrote:likely more he's about as old as the Jedi order and old republic

Old Republic is 1000 years old, so he's older than it... several times older. Plus ...he was born in First Age, which lasted 590 years... then lived throught second age (3441 years) + Third Age (3021 years) = 7052 years. Elrond was born in First Age, Lord's Year 532. That makes him 6520 years old at end of Third Age. Yoda died at 900 years old.

But I think that it is safe to assume that Galadriel is more powerful than him, and possibly wiser (being older - born during Years of Trees, way before start of First Age - and thus more experienced, althought he seems to be better diplomat than any other elf (better understanding of other races etc.).

So not even Grand Master Yoda is match for any of LotR Elf Lords... sorry, Star Wars.

I don't see what age has to do with that. I could decide to spent 2000 years twiddling my fingers, it wouldn't make me any more powerful and skilled than some bloke who spent just fifteen years learning strategy and sword fighting.

Are you guys talking about if they used spaceships etc? Because the White Council is no match for that.
And the Jedi Council was formed to use that.

If you're talking about just using their magic: then yeah the White Council would win, particularly since it was God's will. Even if you kill Gandalf, he really DOES become far more powerful than you can ever imagine-- he doesn't just become a ghost that can't do squat other than talk.

Likewise, Dark Magic can obscure the White Council's vision, but they KNOW it-- Sauron couldn't be two feet them from in disguise, like Palaptine was 2 feet in front of the Jedi Council and they were unware that he was the Sith-lord; they knew that Gol Guldur was an evil place, and Galadriel tells the Fellowship that it would obscure her vision of them.

The White Council also wields the Three Rings, which have great power to protect lands from invasion by anything less than Sauron; so that could stop the Jedi; it also allows them to raise rivers and drown anyone who crosses them, even if it's a small ford.

Finally, in Return of the King, Gandalf uses telekinesis to rip the sword out of Denethor's hand; he could do that against lightsaber as well. Gandalf also shoots a beam of light out of his hand which zaps five Nazgul, so they can clearly deal with telekinesis and Sith-lightning etc.
Finally, Galadriel has her mirror, which can allow them to see things far off and in the future, much more clearly than the Jedi can.

Advantage: White Council.

Picard wrote: Old Republic is 1000 years old, so he's older than it... several times older. Plus ...he was born in First Age, which lasted 590 years... then lived throught second age (3441 years) + Third Age (3021 years) = 7052 years. Elrond was born in First Age, Lord's Year 532. That makes him 6520 years old at end of Third Age. Yoda died at 900 years old.

Elrond is about six thousand years old I was talking about Cirdan who allot of Tolkien buffs put at between twenty and forty plus thousand years old being literally one of the first elves to awaken

the republic has been around longer then a millenium in the EU and one of the only things the original trilogy supports is the Eu figure of twenty plus thousand things..hell I think it's only thing the OT actually supports...the rest is just BS

Picard wrote:But I think that it is safe to assume that Galadriel is more powerful than him, and possibly wiser (being older - born during Years of Trees, way before start of First Age - and thus more experienced, althought he seems to be better diplomat than any other elf (better understanding of other races etc.).

Galadriel is between 10 and 2o thousand years according to the peolple who know this better then I do at least she's probably more powerful then Both Elrond and Cirdan..since she had seen the light of valinor and the old man didn't but he's far older then her

Picard wrote:So not even Grand Master Yoda is match for any of LotR Elf Lords... sorry, Star Wars.

well Yoda never obliterated an CIS fort by himself..Galadriel kinda did (well not CIS fort but an enemy strong hold)

Admiral Breetai wrote:the republic has been around longer then a millenium in the EU and one of the only things the original trilogy supports is the Eu figure of twenty plus thousand things..hell I think it's only thing the OT actually supports...the rest is just BS

It's actually never alluded to in the OT, and only defined as a millennium old Republic in the PT. It's the EU that tried its best to mesh that with its already established 25,000 years of galactic history and global government.

Picard wrote:Galadriel is between 10 and 2o thousand years according to the peolple who know this better then I do at least she's probably more powerful then Both Elrond and Cirdan..since she had seen the light of valinor and the old man didn't but he's far older then her

LOTR wikia has info.
It cleared a lot of things for me at least.

Picard wrote:So not even Grand Master Yoda is match for any of LotR Elf Lords... sorry, Star Wars.

well Yoda never obliterated an CIS fort by himself..Galadriel kinda did (well not CIS fort but an enemy strong hold)

Depends what you mean by owning a fort on her own. Technically Yoda and Obi-Wan both handled near the entirety of the Imperial troops in the ruined Jedi temple.

SpaceWizard wrote:Are you guys talking about if they used spaceships etc? Because the White Council is no match for that.
And the Jedi Council was formed to use that.

If you're talking about just using their magic: then yeah the White Council would win, particularly since it was God's will. Even if you kill Gandalf, he really DOES become far more powerful than you can ever imagine-- he doesn't just become a ghost that can't do squat other than talk.

Likewise, Dark Magic can obscure the White Council's vision, but they KNOW it-- Sauron couldn't be two feet them from in disguise, like Palaptine was 2 feet in front of the Jedi Council and they were unware that he was the Sith-lord; they knew that Gol Guldur was an evil place, and Galadriel tells the Fellowship that it would obscure her vision of them.

The White Council also wields the Three Rings, which have great power to protect lands from invasion by anything less than Sauron; so that could stop the Jedi; it also allows them to raise rivers and drown anyone who crosses them, even if it's a small ford.

Sounds tough. Quotes would help though.

Finally, in Return of the King, Gandalf uses telekinesis to rip the sword out of Denethor's hand; he could do that against lightsaber as well. Gandalf also shoots a beam of light out of his hand which zaps five Nazgul, so they can clearly deal with telekinesis and Sith-lightning etc.

You're talking of the movie? In the movie it was more like a faint white light that really seemed to piss the Nazguls and drive them off, nothing else.

Finally, Galadriel has her mirror, which can allow them to see things far off and in the future, much more clearly than the Jedi can.

How is that mirror going to prove helpful in this particular scenario.

"Hey Galy Dolly, could you quit glaring at how awesome you are in this mirror and actually give us a hand?"

OT has obi wan say for a thousand Generations the order and the republic had kept the peace...seems like an obscenely long time

in Galadriels case it was her casting the thing down and scattering all present as opposed to a battle where upon she engages only the orcs

MrOraghan wrote:I don't see what age has to do with that. I could decide to spent 2000 years twiddling my fingers, it wouldn't make me any more powerful and skilled than some bloke who spent just fifteen years learning strategy and sword fighting.

Except that she didn't. Plus now I rememberd comment that "those who lived in Undying lands held great power over both visible and invisible world.". Galadriel reduced Dol Guldur to nothingness, and she is "just" an elf - White Council has Maiars, who are just below Valars in power - and we know from Silmarillion that Morgoth fought against other Valars around Moon (and no, they didn't use spaceships). Galadriel also literally slowed pace of time in Lothlorien, althought that is due to her ring.

On the other hand, there are two or three Maiars in Council (Saruman/Curunir, Gandalf/Mithrandir and Radagast, if you count him). Their power is way ahead of that of any Elf Lords, and are said to be as powerful as Sauron, althought they were not allowed to actually used that power (althought Gandalf did kill the Balrog, and Balrogs are fallen Maiars). Given that Elrond was able to control river, cure curses, and Galadriel was able to completely destroy Dol Guldur, probably via earthquake, one can imagine how powerful Maiars were.

Her powers are clearly superior, but can she control it so far as to focus them on a small area without killing herself?