The white council vs The Jedi council?

[Admiral Breetai]

maiar aren't exactly a notch below the Valar the gap between all but the two or three strongest maiar and the weakest valar is a gap as wide as the distance between New York and Barcelona - some elves could attain near Maiar level power we saw this with Luthien with Fingolfin and with Finrod and Feanor and Galadriel herself

as to Gandalf he was a decently ranked maiar if i recall right and very versatile..in that he spent time learning under two valar but I think despite this power he was afraid of fighting sauron though you could ascribe that to humility I suppose

[Mr. Oragahn]

Fighting him directly you mean? Because it seems he helped drive Sauron away from Dol Guldur precisely.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Archangels vs Supermen? Jedi council gets crushed in all scenarios.

I can tell that a lot of people from spacebattles are here. No offense intended.

By your logic, Percy Jackson would crush Superman. By your logic, Achilles would crush the Silver Surfer. Both are false, because being a demi-god in fiction does not magically make you invincible at all, you still still vulnerable.

As for the topic, only Gandalf, Sauruman and any other wizards on the council really have shown feats or associated characters showing feats that put them on Jedi defeating level. Gandalf has actually shown feats on par with, if not greater, than many higher end Jedi, but what he has in raw power he lacks in the fact that he has no defense against a lightsaber or possibly against TK. In close combat, the Jedi curbstomp the White Council with ease, because the Jedi have lightsabers and pre cog.

[Admiral Breetai]

I can tell that a lot of people from spacebattles are here. No offense intended.

oh come on dude you been improving as a poster..don't fall back on old habits

By your logic, Percy Jackson would crush Superman. By your logic, Achilles would crush the Silver Surfer. Both are false, because being a demi-god in fiction does not magically make you invincible at all, you still still vulnerable.

it would take superman about six months to completely collapse the Galactic empire..and only six months because his FTL feats are kinda shitty...it would take the silver surfur..about..two hours to do the same thing-as such your comparison is absolutely invalid Superman and The SS do not compare in any way to percy jackson..or gandalf..or Yoda...thus your going out of your way to use over the top examples that flat out don't matter here

I'll laugh pretty hard if you seriously try and refute clark or Norrin not absolutely raping the GE like a starving polar bear on a baby seal but since you seem more comic savvy then 98% of the clowns on space battles I don't think you will

As for the topic, only Gandalf, Sauruman and any other wizards on the council really have shown feats or associated characters showing feats that put them on Jedi defeating level. Gandalf has actually shown feats on par with, if not greater, than many higher end Jedi, but what he has in raw power he lacks in the fact that he has no defense against a lightsaber or possibly against TK. In close combat, the Jedi curbstomp the White Council with ease, because the Jedi have lightsabers and pre cog.

1, we've been through this regarding precog..so please leave that at the door

2, Galadriels and Gandalf surpass anything shown in the films..EU will not be used in my threads unless I specify in the OP..I did for the Shi'ar thread but not for this one

3, even going by films for LOTR knocking over the ice sheets on a mountain peak from several hundred miles away is a better feat then anything shown in the films

[Picard]

Archangels vs Supermen? Jedi council gets crushed in all scenarios.

I can tell that a lot of people from spacebattles are here. No offense intended.

By your logic, Percy Jackson would crush Superman. By your logic, Achilles would crush the Silver Surfer. Both are false, because being a demi-god in fiction does not magically make you invincible at all, you still still vulnerable.

As for the topic, only Gandalf, Sauruman and any other wizards on the council really have shown feats or associated characters showing feats that put them on Jedi defeating level. Gandalf has actually shown feats on par with, if not greater, than many higher end Jedi, but what he has in raw power he lacks in the fact that he has no defense against a lightsaber or possibly against TK. In close combat, the Jedi curbstomp the White Council with ease, because the Jedi have lightsabers and pre cog.

Read some LotR before making comments. Do you know how powerful Maiar and even Elves are? From your comment it seems that you only watched movie, w/o reading any books.

Wizards (these were Maiars that came into Middle-Earth) were said to be as powerful as Sauron, but not allowed to use that power. Even "ordinary" Elves are nothing to shrug at, with some Elven lords (Galadriel) doing feats far in excess of what even Yoda could hope to accomplish. Galadriel simply flattened fortress of Dol Guldur, either via earthquake or destroying walls themselves. Either way, it didn't take her long to do it.

Even in movies, there are feats way out of Jedi's league, althought you seem to have conveniently forgotten it - Saruman was shown to be able to control weather conditions and cause lightning strikes. How well you think Jedi will fare against bolt of lightning?

[Mr. Oragahn]

Even in movies, there are feats way out of Jedi's league, althought you seem to have conveniently forgotten it - Saruman was shown to be able to control weather conditions and cause lightning strikes. How well you think Jedi will fare against bolt of lightning?

The same way Saruman took ages to prepare his lightning bolt, and didn't aim it directly at his enemies, but somehow blasted some rock instead?
Plus with some variety of precog and the capacity of handle lightning bolts, the Jedi of the High Council may be able to handle enough bolts (assuming movie-Saruman could rifles some) before he gets a blade sticking out of his back, or his head rolling.

The only thing that will save him is the people around him who would be tougher to bring down. And I'm not even sure how Galadriel could control her power or dial it down enough so she can actually use it in a CQC mode. Because tactical level will not be low enough.
Not to say that she does most of it because of the Nenya ring, right?
It would have been quite interesting to give a few Jedi some Holocrons or other special Force imbued items.
Heck, the feat Starkiller pulls against that ISD would obviously be beyond enough to level an entire fortress as well. Yet he wasn't WTFPWNin' Vader in any shape or form.

[Admiral Breetai]

it didn't take him awhile because his magic takes time it took awhile because Gandalf spoke a counter spell and all that did was delay them a few second

Saruman was also not aiming at them, because if he did the ring would be lost for centuries up that freaken mountain

and I have absolutely no clue why the force unleashed what brought up not only is the power level massively contradictory with the movie showings but it's got no basis in the films either

[Mr. Oragahn]

it didn't take him awhile because his magic takes time it took awhile because Gandalf spoke a counter spell and all that did was delay them a few second

Not in the movie. Didn't read the book though.

Saruman was also not aiming at them, because if he did the ring would be lost for centuries up that freaken mountain

And forcing them through completely different pathways, through Moria, would be better?

and I have absolutely no clue why the force unleashed what brought up not only is the power level massively contradictory with the movie showings but it's got no basis in the films either

I brought it up because it's an example of the very author of the universe snapping and giving some Force sensible character a power beyond the baseline model, making Galadriel's seemingly impressive act all relative.

Not to say that the line that describes Galadriel's feat is not so conclusive as I previously thought:

... when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Is there any more context to that? Is there any reason not to think it could mean Galadriel, as a leader of an army or a fraction of an army, used some tools to actually demolish the walls of the fortress and filled the pits?
Not only is the book building a mythology, but that's a long way to take so literally such a tiny bit when it also sounds like someone going for a quick description saying that Alexander/Napoleon/Churchill/Staline attacked/devastated [random city]. Now, sure, there's a margin of tolerance that these humans didn't have, namely the magic that might allow powerful individuals in LOTR to achieve impressive feats.

This thread I found is most enlightening.

It would be interesting to keep in mind that the Three Rings were not made for war or conquest, so how one could come to be used in such a powerful way would really bring me to question the validity of the literal interpretation.

They are not idle; they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power.

If anything, the very similar spell used by that other chick Luthien specifically aimed at stones and basically let the gravity do its job by allowing the stuff that bound stones to lose all grip (anti-stoneglue spell):

Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declare her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare;

How is such a specific spell going to be of use against the Jedi?

And that's not all. Thanks to Elu Thingol's post, we get to consider something that's very similar to what happened to Mordor in the movie as when Sauron left, or more aptly, was forced to leave by being defeated. Look:

Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him.

Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone...

In other words, what this means is that Sauron ties his essence to the place he operates from. Once he's gone, his mojo literally leaves the dark place and it crumbles apart.
Luthien had nothing more to do than just to sign some kind of administrative paper about who owned the place, and like some kind of repulsive aura, the fortress' walls, either defensive or those maintaining pits, fell to bits.
The description of what Luthien does and what Galadriel achieved at Dol Guldur are just too identical to dismiss this.

The only counter to that, and that's solely because I don't have the chapter to read, is the Witch King bringing down the gates of Minas Tirith with his own words, as claimed here.
Didn't the WK simply enhance the power of the ram or something?
Was the ram not needed in the book? If not, then bringing up the WK's feat would not be a valid counter to the solid argument made by member Elu Thingol, and enhanced above.

In the end, I have even less reasons to doubt that the Jedi High Council would trounce the White Council.

[Admiral Breetai]

Fighting him directly you mean? Because it seems he helped drive Sauron away from Dol Guldur precisely.

Sauron kinda left there when they fought him in the hobbit he had no real need to do anything else..it was time to head back to mordor and start prepping for the war

so he basically flicked them off and bailed

Not in the movie. Didn't read the book though.

umm yes in the movie in the book it was different Saruman trolled the mountain so hard it got so angry Gandalf couldn't do anything to counter and it just toppled snow on them..them going into moria..was contrary to both wizards ultimate designs for that situation

I think Gimli said something like "the old man is angry" in reference to the mountain and Gandalf or Legolas makes mention of a fowl voice on the wind essentially telling it to "wake up" or something its been awhile but the impression I got was Saruman basically told an inanimate object to wake up and shake off the fleas that dared walk upon its back


[

And forcing them through completely different pathways, through Moria, would be better?

because in the movie unlike in the book saruman was completely enthralled by sauron and thus if it was retrieved by the thousands and thousands of loyal servants to the dark lord in moria it'd be okay by him

in the book iirc saruman was trying to drive them towards Rohan

I brought it up because it's an example of the very author of the universe snapping and giving some Force sensible character a power beyond the baseline model, making Galadriel's seemingly impressive act all relative.

Not to say that the line that describes Galadriel's feat is not so conclusive as I previously thought:

I see, i get it I just think it'd be more official if say he did it in the up coming live action tv series fer example

... when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

Is there any more context to that? Is there any reason not to think it could mean Galadriel, as a leader of an army or a fraction of an army, used some tools to actually demolish the walls of the fortress and filled the pits?

because Tolkien can be very specific there are many instances in the silmarillion unfinished tales and so on where when he wants you to know it's an army he lets you know...as opposed making specific mention of Galadriel herself doing it

Not only is the book building a mythology, but that's a long way to take so literally such a tiny bit when it also sounds like someone going for a quick description saying that Alexander/Napoleon/Churchill/Staline attacked/devastated [random city]. Now, sure, there's a margin of tolerance that these humans didn't have, namely the magic that might allow powerful individuals in LOTR to achieve impressive feats.

the problem with that is 1, he spent an entire backround building her up to be a complete power house and 2, was fully capable of showing and did show many times through out his whole series of stories that when he wanted to differentiate between the potency of the boss and its underlings and the respective feats he could do so

the description of the war of wrath is a really good example..in a huge book full of epic poetic language and fluff he goes out of his way to show 'the army did this and this damage Ealendil and the dark ones did this and so on"

This thread I found is most enlightening.

die hard tolkien fans tend to over analyze much and think too much and end up with some really funky interpretations on various matters see the tom bomabidil discourses as a good example

i also LOL'd kinda hard at that poster saying a first age top tier elf couldnt building bust when that would be considered a mid to high low showing for those guys

It would be interesting to keep in mind that the Three Rings were not made for war or conquest, so how one could come to be used in such a powerful way would really bring me to question the validity of the literal interpretation.

why would you even think she needed the ring at all to do that to dul gurdur? first age evles didn't generally need magical artifacts to do deeds of awesome Hurin some one confirmed in canon to be vastly weaker then Galadriel certainly didn't need an elf ring to pwn an army

They are not idle; they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power.

which where put to use in doing things like allowing Galadriel to stave off entropy..in her own realm...and greatly enhanced her abilities to mess with her own domain

they did nothing for her battle prowess which again was a tier above a guy like Hurin who makes most jedi masters if not all of them look like kids playing with light swords

If anything, the very similar spell used by that other chick Luthien specifically aimed at stones and basically let the gravity do its job by allowing the stuff that bound stones to lose all grip (anti-stoneglue spell):

I'm not exactly sure how one gets "lets gravity do its work" on that..especially considering she did things like..low level time manipulation/reality war[ to speed up the seasons and what ever

Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declare her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare;

yeah thats not letting gravity do its work its..smashing the place to pieces and declaring that she now wears saurons old pants

]

How is such a specific spell going to be of use against the Jedi?

obliterate the council chamber around them? throw the foundations of the building down on their very being?

or what's stopping her from pulling a hurin and just psychically dominating the more featless jedi masters

]And that's not all. Thanks to Elu Thingol's post, we get to consider something that's very similar to what happened to Mordor in the movie as when Sauron left, or more aptly, was forced to leave by being defeated. Look:

what happened in the movies was a pants on head retarded exaggeration...of what actually happened in the books I mean yeah the crags of mount doom kinda went active but there was no all terrain destroying gargantuan flaiming eye ball

Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him.

yup because when sauron hauled ass from the isle nothing was there stronger then her..hell Sauron himself may not of been stronger then her Luthien was an absolute monster,, oh and as for Huan he's the same dog who was breaking small mountain sides and causing huge rock slides just by barking..every one present in that fight was some sort of ungodly monster power house...

but that has very little to do with her raping the guys turf..or Galadriels subsequent pwnage of DG

Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone...

all I see is language describing her loosing some kind of offensive power..there

In other words, what this means is that Sauron ties his essence to the place he operates from. Once he's gone, his mojo literally leaves the dark place and it crumbles apart.

which isn't actually how it works not unless until he's completely removed as a threat during ROK

Luthien had nothing more to do than just to sign some kind of administrative paper about who owned the place, and like some kind of repulsive aura, the fortress' walls, either defensive or those maintaining pits, fell to bits.
The description of what Luthien does and what Galadriel achieved at Dol Guldur are just too identical to dismiss this.

err Luthien also altered the passage of time and or reality just by taking a walk..I don't particularly see how taking the lowest possible interpretation of what actually happened is gonna help anything and again the language was very specific in Galadriels case..when the guy was as a language expert and an iirc world renowned one at that (we're not talking about wong or saxton here it'd be the equivalent of Karl Sagan writing the ICS here) theres no reason to believe he was just being "poetic"

The only counter to that, and that's solely because I don't have the chapter to read, is the Witch King bringing down the gates of Minas Tirith with his own words, as claimed here.
Didn't the WK simply enhance the power of the ram or something?
Was the ram not needed in the book? If not, then bringing up the WK's feat would not be a valid counter to the solid argument made by member Elu Thingol, and enhanced above.

the Ram was used WK augmented the power of Grond Jr while weakening the gates with his voice...he also mass mind fucked Gondors soldiers

I mean it isn't like for example Gandalf didn't vaporize a large dwarf door when he uttered a counter spell to contain Durins bane after the guy spoke a word of command and completely overwhelmed Gandalfs locking spell-I mean theres plenty of instances of shit exploding because of the power LOTR high tiers are throwing around

keep in mind this was an object large enough to fully obscure the body of a being so large and heavy he broke the side of a mountain top with his corpse and yet it was completely pulverized and Gandalf launched like..a dozen or so feet down the stairs by their exchange of spells and Durins resulting brute forcing of his magic

In the end, I have even less reasons to doubt that the Jedi High Council would trounce the White Council.

they have the advantage in more contestants with actual feats but a good chunk of the council did nothing in the movies

both sides suffer from ass sittery featlessness actually

[Mr. Oragahn]

Before going any further, please provide as many quotations as possible that you know of that prove the powers of the WK, Gandalf, Hurin and so on.

[Admiral Breetai]

Before going any further, please provide as many quotations as possible that you know of that prove the powers of the WK, Gandalf, Hurin and so on.

why coitenly *curly accent*

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him off to Angband with mockery.'

on Hurin who was on a lower tier power wise then Galadriel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc6yzxcv0Ps&feature audio on Fingolfin and his terrain altering battle in which he dead lifts morgoths hammer a guy who;s foot weighs as much as a fallen hill oh and he scatters armies including Balrogs with a terror aura...Galadriel was a not below him power wise in the same tier..but on the lowest end

The Nazgûl came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their
voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they
circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight
and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More
unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling
themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their
weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no
more of war, but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.

relevant feats for the nazgul these are soldiers who have been on the front line against the forces of darkness for centuries they have been prepared for this and conditioned and yet still fall to the fear aura

But Théoden was not utterly forsaken. The knights of his house lay slain about him, or else mastered by the madness of their steeds were borne far away.

loosing their shit and running off due to his presence

`I do not know,' answered Gandalf. `But I found myself suddenly faced by something that I have not met before. I could think of nothing to do but to try and put a shutting-spell on the door. I know many; but to do things of that kind rightly requires time, and even then the door can be broken by strength.'What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me.

----- Gandalfs description of Durins bane and his counter spell

'Name him not!' said Gandalf, and for a moment it seemed that a cloud of pain passed over his
face, and he sat silent, looking old as death. 'Long time I fell,' he said at last, slowly, as if
thinking back with difficulty. 'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was
burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death:
almost it froze my heart.'
'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.
'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to
the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a
thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and
ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk,
Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by
nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but
I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and
I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazaddûm:

survives a fall that seems to go on for miles at terminal velocity with a super heavy creature both have a prolonged fight all over the deepest nastiest places then as seen below to the highest peak where the Balrog recovered

too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'
'Long has that been lost,' said Gimli. 'Many have said that it was never made save in legend,
but others say that it was destroyed.' 'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the
highest peak it climbed. ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at
last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the pinnacle of the Silvertine.
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a
dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped
in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame.

end result as noted by Gandalf

Those that looked up from afar thought that the
mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon
Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is not that enough? A great smoke rose
about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high
place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin.

man says those who witnessed the fight would see a storm of lighting and fire and that they melted the ice and the things corpse leveled the side of a mountain peak

some side stuff on Gandalfs own power mind screwing Legolas who was strong enough to resist the fear aura of a nazgul as seen here----

'Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?' said the old man. 'Put away that bow, Elf!'
The bow and arrow fell from Legolas' hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.

The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large
rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were
flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his
grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed
with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in
a flash of flame.

there you have TKing away an ax vaporizing an arrow and heating up Aragorns sword

some feats for elves that where peers of Galadriel

in The Fall of Gondolin: of the battle of Ecthelion of the Fountain with Gothmog Lord of Balrogs in the very square of
the King, where each slew the other, and of the defence of the tower of Turgon by the people of his household, until the
tower was overthrown; and mighty was its fall and the fall of Turgon in its ruin.
.

basically benching a creature heavy enough to topple a piece of a peek and then shanking him in the gut...the unfinished tales IIRC go into more detail then the silmarillion does..but essentially it comes off like an ECW hardcore match in terms of brutality

Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that
high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss. But the eagles coming stooped upon the Orcs, and drove them shrieking
back; and all were slain or cast into the deeps, so that rumour of the escape from Gondolin came not until long after to
Morgoth's ears. Then Thorondor bore up Glorfindel's body out of the abyss, and they buried him in a mound of stones
beside the pass; and a green turf came there, and yellow flowers bloomed upon it amid the barrenness of stone, until the
world was changed.

---this guy later reincarnates into the same Glorfindel we see in the fellowship of the ring and got a huge power boost when he did so..so much so that the guy was basically an out of context problem and likely second only to Gandalf and Galadriel

I'll look up Saurons battle in the silmarillion later for feats for elrond and Cirdan but I don't recall them doing over much so..iffy on the need to post it..unless you just wanna see it

[StarWarsStarTrek]

oh come on dude you been improving as a poster..don't fall back on old habits

And don't be a hypocrite. Practice what you preach.

it would take superman about six months to completely collapse the Galactic empire..and only six months because his FTL feats are kinda shitty...it would take the silver surfur..about..two hours to do the same thing-as such your comparison is absolutely invalid Superman and The SS do not compare in any way to percy jackson..or gandalf..or Yoda...thus your going out of your way to use over the top examples that flat out don't matter here

I'll laugh pretty hard if you seriously try and refute clark or Norrin not absolutely raping the GE like a starving polar bear on a baby seal but since you seem more comic savvy then 98% of the clowns on space battles I don't think you will

Ah, apparently you can't. As much you would like to brag off about your knowledge of Comic Book Characters, it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

My point is that demi gods can be weaker than non demi gods, because Superman is more powerful than Percy Jackson, who is a demi god. Therefore, the "he's a demi god!" argument is not always true and not valid.

1, we've been through this regarding precog..so please leave that at the door

When? Where? Show me the thread in which we debated over pre cog.

2, Galadriels and Gandalf surpass anything shown in the films..EU will not be used in my threads unless I specify in the OP..I did for the Shi'ar thread but not for this one

And you can prove this, right? Back it up with evidence?

Actually, you don't need to, because I agreed with you in my post, another example of you failing to read and appreciate the quotes that you respond to.

My point is that even if Gandalf is more powerful than a Jedi, said Jedi has a lightsaber and speed blitzing capability.

3, even going by films for LOTR knocking over the ice sheets on a mountain peak from several hundred miles away is a better feat then anything shown in the films

[/quote][/quote]

What? Since when did that happen? Gandalf fought the Balrog on the mountaintop, they weren't hundreds of miles miles when they damaged the mountain, which in the films they did not do nearly as much as in the books.

In raw power, Gandalf trumps most Jedi, but he doesn't have a lightsaber. How's he supposed to survive in close quarters?

[Admiral Breetai]

[
And don't be a hypocrite. Practice what you preach]

LOL oh lawd

[
Ah, apparently you can't. As much you would like to brag off about your knowledge of Comic Book Characters, it has nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

it has everything to do with what your trying to say

[
My point is that demi gods can be weaker than non demi gods, because Superman is more powerful than Percy Jackson, who is a demi god. Therefore, the "he's a demi god!" argument is not always true and not valid.

because the gap in power between clark and percy is even remotely comparable to the gap between any jedi and an istari oh wait its not...you went completely to an extreme and thus tanked your own analogy

fuck naruto on percy would of been a better analogy given the gap is about accurate unless Im seriously missing some percy feats

[

When? Where? Show me the thread in which we debated over pre cog.

you know when


]

[And you can prove this, right? Back it up with evidence?

you don´t know how toi read?

[Actually, you don't need to, because I agreed with you in my post, another example of you failing to read and appreciate the quotes that you respond to.

your assertion that lightsabers and precog have fuck all to contribute to the outcome is absurd

[My point is that even if Gandalf is more powerful than a Jedi, said Jedi has a lightsaber and speed blitzing capability.

beside a one off sm vs fl feat from obiwan ansd qui gon in phantom no jedi has shown speed blitz capacity so no

3, even going by films for LOTR knocking over the ice sheets on a mountain peak from several hundred miles away is a better feat then anything shown in the films

[/quote][/quote]

[What? Since when did that happen?

saruman voice fucking clouds causing a lighting storm gandalf counter spelling ranging towards isengard and its subsiquent failure resulting in ice caps being brought down on the fellowship

[
Gandalf fought the Balrog on the mountaintop, they weren't hundreds of miles miles when they damaged the mountain, which in the films they did not do nearly as much as in the books.

different scenarior

[In raw power, Gandalf trumps most Jedi, but he doesn't have a lightsaber. How's he supposed to survive in close quarters?

why would he need too_?

[Praeothmin]

While the Jedi have shown speed blitzing a few times, mostly Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon twice in TPM (once on the droid control ship, and then when fighting DM), the fact remains they never, ever fought at those speeds.
Their speed is only used for running, and never for fighting.
If they could, no Jedi would have died on Geonosis, because at that speed they would have looked like Clark Kent in Smallville when he is acting at super speed, able to perform all he needs to before anyone reacts...

[Admiral Breetai]

mace windu and obi wan both showed exceptional agility feats Maces being superior even to Yodas (although to be fair the little guy does have impressive damage soak taking that hundred or so foot fall with just a grunt) mind you Mace was the greatest duelist to exist more or less since Kun and Sunrider thousands of years ago surpassing iirc even Dooku in that regard and completely assraped sidious in lightsaber combat

and Obi-wan was considered among the top four in terms of combat skills as well so I doubt they are indicative of the average jedi master even

no doubt the little green one and those two are gonna be the most dangerous enemies though

an aside note: if Gandalf Cirdan Elrond Yoda Kenobi and Windu sat down to have some tea and chit chat...you think they'd end up becoming friends? I mean that and some body would have to record that convo the sheer amount of knowledge exchanged would per sentence no?