The white council vs The Jedi council?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

LOL oh lawd

What, are you claiming that you should not practice what you preach?

it has everything to do with what your trying to say

And you can explain how, right? Elaborate, maybe?

because the gap in power between clark and percy is even remotely comparable to the gap between any jedi and an istari oh wait its not...you went completely to an extreme and thus tanked your own analogy

fuck naruto on percy would of been a better analogy given the gap is about accurate unless Im seriously missing some percy feats

That's the entire point! Clark is going to beat Percy because his FEATS are better, regardless of whether or not Percy is the son of Poseidon. Similarly, you cannot just claim that the White Council wins because they have demi-gods in it; you are using semantics/superficial titles over feats.

If you think that Gandalf, for example, is stronger than Yoda, explain so with feats. Do not make a shallow comparison like "demi-god vs green midget!" as your argument.

you know when


]

"you know when" is not evidence.

you don´t know how toi read?

I did, and I did not find your evidence. Unless if you can provide said evidence, your claim is unsupported by facts.

your assertion that lightsabers and precog have fuck all to contribute to the outcome is absurd

Actually, they do. It means that time is on the side of the Jedi; since the Jedi are faster than the White Council*, the White Council has to finish the battle quickly from a distance, or else they lose.*

*Nowhere have Gandalf or the others shown superhuman speed feats, although they have shown superhuman endurance feats. Jedi, on the other hand, have been shown to travel so fast that the eye can only make out a blur.

*Lightsabers vs sword, enchanted or not.

beside a one off sm vs fl feat from obiwan ansd qui gon in phantom no jedi has shown speed blitz capacity so no

That one feat is to be discounted why? Qui Gon and Obi Wan were shown to move in a blur. That's evidence.

By the way, this is the Jedi Council that we are talking about here, which includes many Jedi even more powerful than Qui Gon and Obi Wan.

saruman voice fucking clouds causing a lighting storm gandalf counter spelling ranging towards isengard and its subsiquent failure resulting in ice caps being brought down on the fellowship

Saruman's spell is not combat applicable. The storm he created, while impressive, took time and was not focused enough to seriously harm a combatant in a small scale engagement like this one.

In a strategic war, sure, it would help.

different scenarior

Right, sorry. I thought that you were referring to the battle between Gandalf and the Balrog (epic, BTW).

why would he need too_?

Because Jedi can move in a blur, thus making them far faster than Gandalf? This means that Gandalf vs Mace Windu, for example, would require Gandalf to win within a few seconds, because that is enough time for Mace Windu to close the distance and use his lightsaber.

What means does Gandalf have to take out a Jedi quickly? Lightning, perhaps, but a Jedi can defend against lightning. You could argue that Gandalf's weathertop feat showed lightning far more powerful than Force lightning, but could he pull it off in time?

[Admiral Breetai]

What, are you claiming that you should not practice what you preach?

merely that you tend to say this after showing fantastic hypocrisy

And you can explain how, right? Elaborate, maybe?

it certainly helps to catch you making a completely invalid analogy

That's the entire point! Clark is going to beat Percy because his FEATS are better, regardless of whether or not Percy is the son of Poseidon. Similarly, you cannot just claim that the White Council wins because they have demi-gods in it; you are using semantics/superficial titles over feats.

and if Jedi could punch apart moons and move at FTL velocities I'd agree that your analogy had merit..only..it did not

If you think that Gandalf, for example, is stronger than Yoda, explain so with feats. Do not make a shallow comparison like "demi-god vs green midget!" as your argument.

Gandalf is stronger then Yoda because he ate a fall that would of smeared any one in the films...because he has resisted far better mind rapes and because he's capable of issuing words of command that can burn metal or iirc vaporize it

"you know when" is not evidence.

I'm trying to save you humiliation here

I did, and I did not find your evidence. Unless if you can provide said evidence, your claim is unsupported by facts.

then you have very selective reading comprehension

Actually, they do. It means that time is on the side of the Jedi; since the Jedi are faster than the White Council*, the White Council has to finish the battle quickly from a distance, or else they lose.*

only precog has never helped them in the films in any meaningful way

*Nowhere have Gandalf or the others shown superhuman speed feats, although they have shown superhuman endurance feats. Jedi, on the other hand, have been shown to travel so fast that the eye can only make out a blur.

neither do the jedi who only did it once and never again

]*Lightsabers vs sword, enchanted or not.

swords that aren't effected by entropy can harm intangibles and what not

That one feat is to be discounted why? Qui Gon and Obi Wan were shown to move in a blur. That's evidence.

because it was never replicated by any one and Mace Windu and Yoda two guys who shit on them stat wise never used in in any of their crucial fights

so no...it's fucking out

By the way, this is the Jedi Council that we are talking about here, which includes many Jedi even more powerful than Qui Gon and Obi Wan.

and never replicated their speed feats

Saruman's spell is not combat applicable. The storm he created, while impressive, took time and was not focused enough to seriously harm a combatant in a small scale engagement like this one.

when he can voice fuck the environment into reigning down lighting on the council temple when him and Galadriel and likely Gandalf as well can just..bust up the council tower?

Right, sorry. I thought that you were referring to the battle between Gandalf and the Balrog (epic, BTW).

kinda like it better then in the book

Because Jedi can move in a blur, thus making them far faster than Gandalf? This means that Gandalf vs Mace Windu, for example, would require Gandalf to win within a few seconds, because that is enough time for Mace Windu to close the distance and use his lightsaber.

why only two jedi did that only once and never did it again and far more powerful beings failed to ever do it so no no they cannot

What means does Gandalf have to take out a Jedi quickly? Lightning, perhaps, but a Jedi can defend against lightning. You could argue that Gandalf's weathertop feat showed lightning far more powerful than Force lightning, but could he pull it off in time?

if he could pull it off against multiple opponents and all yes

[Praeothmin]

SWST, show ONE instance where we see Jedi fight at the speeds they've been seen running, just ONE...

But you can't, can you?
Because the Jedi have never fought at those speeds, they only used them to run, never to fight, because like all Force powers, it seems to require great concentration...

On the subject of Precog, Precog didn't help the Jedi Master (a council member) who got shot by Jango in AotC, nor did it help the Jedi Master shot in the back by her troops in RotS, nor did it help Obi-Wan in his fight against Jango Fett (when he couldn't anticipate Boba firing at him, or Jango's jetpack missile, or even Jango's hand lasso), or etc, etc...

Precog as seen in the highest canon is useful when the Jedi are aware of danger, and the General direction of it.
The only one we've seen show us a mighty Precog sense was Yoda, when he sensed the danger coming from his Clones troopers...

So Precog against someone who fought and beat the Balrog?
The Jedi are doomed...
Lightsabres would not cut through Gandalf's magical sword, I am certain of it, because it was not affected in the least by the Balrog's fire, it did not melt when Gandalf fell in lava...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

merely that you tend to say this after showing fantastic hypocrisy

Evidence.

it certainly helps to catch you making a completely invalid analogy

Elaboration.

and if Jedi could punch apart moons and move at FTL velocities I'd agree that your analogy had merit..only..it did not

That has nothing to do with the analogy. The analogy is that feats > shallow titles.

Gandalf is stronger then Yoda because he ate a fall that would of smeared any one in the films...because he has resisted far better mind rapes and because he's capable of issuing words of command that can burn metal or iirc vaporize it

Actually, Anakin Skywalker survived a pretty long fall at terminal velocity and landed on a moving airspeeder, plus he timed it exactly so that he would land on the right airspeeder at the right time.

I'm trying to save you humiliation here

Well I appreciate the attempt, but it failed. So go ahead and humiliate me with the evidence that you brought.

then you have very selective reading comprehension

And since the burden of proof is on you, your claim still remains unsupported.

only precog has never helped them in the films in any meaningful way

You got to be kidding me. Had it not been for pre cog, Qui Gon and Obi Wan would have been gunned down by blaster rifles in TPM, all the Jedi in AOTC would have been killed within minutes in the arena and Obi Wan and Anakin would have been killed in the opening ROTS scene.

neither do the jedi who only did it once and never again

When else would they have a need to use it?

swords that aren't effected by entropy

Bullshit. They're just very long lasting. The pyramids have lasted just as long as Elendil; is it immune to entropy?

can harm intangibles and what not

How is that relevant to this fight?

Are you seriously claiming that an elven/numenorian sword is more powerful than a lightsaber?

because it was never replicated by any one and Mace Windu and Yoda two guys who shit on them stat wise never used in in any of their crucial fights

Because there is no evidence that they can actually FIGHT at those speeds, which is not needed in this scenario. As none of the White Council can block a lightsaber, and none have the pre cog to sense and dodge a blur-fast rush, the Jedi can simply charge forward with their lightsabers in a stabbing motion.

so no...it's fucking out

So rationalize how Obi Wan and Qui Gon escaped.

and never replicated their speed feats

Because there were no situations in which they needed to?

when he can voice fuck the environment into reigning down lighting on the council temple when him and Galadriel and likely Gandalf as well can just..bust up the council tower?

What is this Council Tower that you speak of?

kinda like it better then in the book

The books state that Gandalf flung the balrog down so hard that it knocked off the side of a mountain cliff, meaning that he was flinging the balrog at hypervelocity speeds...or the balrog just hit a fragile part of the mountain.

A little extreme, eh?

why only two jedi did that only once and never did it again and far more powerful beings failed to ever do it so no no they cannot

Then what was it that we saw when Obi Wan and Qui Gon blurred out? Did they get access to some variant of a ST transporter in secret?

if he could pull it off against multiple opponents and all yes

Evidence?

[Admiral Breetai]

Evidence.

you've been told now that this isn't how it works

Elaboration.

percy jackson vs superman being an accurate representation of the disparity between Gandalf and Yoda I find it especially amusing since you spent several pages crying about scale in another thread

That has nothing to do with the analogy. The analogy is that feats > shallow titles.

it has everything to do with the analogy and of course titles mean exactly dick...but when there is a legit gap...

Actually, Anakin Skywalker survived a pretty long fall at terminal velocity and landed on a moving airspeeder, plus he timed it exactly so that he would land on the right airspeeder at the right time.

that wasn't the same thing

And since the burden of proof is on you, your claim still remains unsupported.

I provided proof you ignored it..so now its not on me lol

You got to be kidding me. Had it not been for pre cog, Qui Gon and Obi Wan would have been gunned down by blaster rifles in TPM, all the Jedi in AOTC would have been killed within minutes in the arena and Obi Wan and Anakin would have been killed in the opening ROTS scene

some dead guy created an army behind every ones back right around the time an ex jedi began talks of cessation!!! SUSPICIOUS!!! only y'know between that and sitting in the same room as a sith lord and all

[

When else would they have a need to use it?

your kidding right?

Bullshit. They're just very long lasting. The pyramids have lasted just as long as Elendil; is it immune to entropy?

going by some tolkien claneders they're either one or two times older then the pyramids to a hundred or so times....yet they never wore despite being essentially constantly exposed to toxic breath for thousands of years known for melting ubber metal in one case and in Narsils case Narsil...Narsil not Elendil Elendil was a historical figure and IIRC the brother of Elrond and progentor of a Numenorian line of kings..not a sword never wore down or degraded and one of their peer blades fell to the bottom of the earth gets picked up when the universe ends and is used no problem to slay melkor in one version of Tolkiens Ragnorak....yeah no not bullshit

How is that relevant to this fight?

it goes to prove that you can't attribute standard metal weaknesses to them

Are you seriously claiming that an elven/numenorian sword is more powerful than a lightsaber?

are you sitting here claiming that blades some of which where fashioned by an engineer so skilled he grabbed an abstract concept like the divine energy of a universal tier being..and then encased it in jem form...is some how going to be even remotely comparable to the average stuff lightsabers cut through?

you can cite all you want futuristic metal even the shittiest first and second age blades are completely immune to entropy..and can effect souls...these are clearly not normal metallic blades

Because there is no evidence that they can actually FIGHT at those speeds, which is not needed in this scenario. As none of the White Council can block a lightsaber, and none have the pre cog to sense and dodge a blur-fast rush, the Jedi can simply charge forward with their lightsabers in a stabbing motion.

Mace could of just rammed into Sidious at superspeed and pulped his rinkly ass or while he was KFC'ing his face just speed shanked his skull

none of this happened

So rationalize how Obi Wan and Qui Gon escaped.

they ran..and what looks like an editing mistake gave rise to a nonsense force power

Because there were no situations in which they needed to?

"execute order sixty six"

What is this Council Tower that you speak of?

oh shit...your kidding

The books state that Gandalf flung the balrog down so hard that it knocked off the side of a mountain cliff, meaning that he was flinging the balrog at hypervelocity speeds...or the balrog just hit a fragile part of the mountain.

A little extreme, eh?

I've always taken the mountain cap destruction to be how ungodly heavy a "solid " Balrog was...than any anime style speed chucking..to be honest and while your theory certainly is possible..those ancient monsters weighing an ungodly amount of weight is supported by precedent super strength was not uncommon among the really mighty in tolkiens work

still cool to picture though a hypersonic suplex

Then what was it that we saw when Obi Wan and Qui Gon blurred out? Did they get access to some variant of a ST transporter in secret?

I have no clue honestly all I know is that feat wise it's about as valid as the time Captain America ran away from an oncoming rocket fired from a rocket launcher hauled a hundred and eighty meters up a tree and threw his shield into the guys face before..the rocket traveled more then 2m's

he';s not that fast..normally and Jedi don't operate that quick

Evidence?

he fought four nazgul and started calling down lighting one imagines it was an AOE type tech as other wise it'd be useless and they did eventually run

[Praeothmin]

The books state that Gandalf flung the balrog down so hard that it knocked off the side of a mountain cliff, meaning that he was flinging the balrog at hypervelocity speeds...or the balrog just hit a fragile part of the mountain.

A little extreme, eh?

Good one!
I have a better one, though:
A book stated that one Force user was able to create a storm using only the Force, powerful enough to destroy ships.
One Force user even brought down an ISD using the Force...

A little extreme, eh? ;)

[Admiral Breetai]

SWST, show ONE instance where we see Jedi fight at the speeds they've been seen running, just ONE...

But you can't, can you?
Because the Jedi have never fought at those speeds, they only used them to run, never to fight, because like all Force powers, it seems to require great concentration...

On the subject of Precog, Precog didn't help the Jedi Master (a council member) who got shot by Jango in AotC, nor did it help the Jedi Master shot in the back by her troops in RotS, nor did it help Obi-Wan in his fight against Jango Fett (when he couldn't anticipate Boba firing at him, or Jango's jetpack missile, or even Jango's hand lasso), or etc, etc...

Precog as seen in the highest canon is useful when the Jedi are aware of danger, and the General direction of it.
The only one we've seen show us a mighty Precog sense was Yoda, when he sensed the danger coming from his Clones troopers...

So Precog against someone who fought and beat the Balrog?
The Jedi are doomed...
Lightsabres would not cut through Gandalf's magical sword, I am certain of it, because it was not affected in the least by the Balrog's fire, it did not melt when Gandalf fell in lava...

damn he must of missed this one...though one question when did Gandalf fall in lava?

Good one!
I have a better one, though:
A book stated that one Force user was able to create a storm using only the Force, powerful enough to destroy ships.
One Force user even brought down an ISD using the Force...

A little extreme, eh? ;)

I admit I LOL'd...though didn't that guy's storm blow up in his face? like literally blow up in his face (sidous really has bad luck with force powers blowing up in his face literally it's like a tend)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The books state that Gandalf flung the balrog down so hard that it knocked off the side of a mountain cliff, meaning that he was flinging the balrog at hypervelocity speeds...or the balrog just hit a fragile part of the mountain.

A little extreme, eh?

Good one!
I have a better one, though:
A book stated that one Force user was able to create a storm using only the Force, powerful enough to destroy ships.
One Force user even brought down an ISD using the Force...

A little extreme, eh? ;)

Clearly you do not understand what a personal opinion to a situation in a book, in contrast to a challenge of canon fact, is.

Nowhere did I deny that Gandalf knocked off a mountain cliff by throwing the Balrog. I just pointed out that it's hard to visualize, and it a little extreme. But it's still canon.

So would you like to uterally trash any of my attempts for light hearted discussion with irrelevant analogies?

[Admiral Breetai]

I gotta thank SWST for the mental image of Gandalf Kurt angle style suplexing Durins Bane at transonic velocities..that's pretty hilarious

but yeah I think it's more toward when it became corporeal it weighed a fuckton..than anything else

[Praeothmin]

The books state that Gandalf flung the balrog down so hard that it knocked off the side of a mountain cliff, meaning that he was flinging the balrog at hypervelocity speeds...or the balrog just hit a fragile part of the mountain.

A little extreme, eh?

Good one!
I have a better one, though:
A book stated that one Force user was able to create a storm using only the Force, powerful enough to destroy ships.
One Force user even brought down an ISD using the Force...

A little extreme, eh? ;)

Clearly you do not understand what a personal opinion to a situation in a book, in contrast to a challenge of canon fact, is.

Nowhere did I deny that Gandalf knocked off a mountain cliff by throwing the Balrog. I just pointed out that it's hard to visualize, and it a little extreme. But it's still canon.

So would you like to uterally trash any of my attempts for light hearted discussion with irrelevant analogies?

Nope, I would like you to actually address my other, previous points instead of ignoring them...

[User1627]

The books state that Gandalf flung the balrog down so hard that it knocked off the side of a mountain cliff, meaning that he was flinging the balrog at hypervelocity speeds...or the balrog just hit a fragile part of the mountain.

A little extreme, eh?

Good one!
I have a better one, though:
A book stated that one Force user was able to create a storm using only the Force, powerful enough to destroy ships.
One Force user even brought down an ISD using the Force...

A little extreme, eh? ;)

Anybody who told you to be yourself simply couldn't have given you worse advice...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Good one!
I have a better one, though:
A book stated that one Force user was able to create a storm using only the Force, powerful enough to destroy ships.
One Force user even brought down an ISD using the Force...

A little extreme, eh? ;)

Clearly you do not understand what a personal opinion to a situation in a book, in contrast to a challenge of canon fact, is.

Nowhere did I deny that Gandalf knocked off a mountain cliff by throwing the Balrog. I just pointed out that it's hard to visualize, and it a little extreme. But it's still canon.

So would you like to uterally trash any of my attempts for light hearted discussion with
irrelevant analogies?[/quote]

Nope, I would like you to actually address my other, previous points instead of ignoring them...[/quote]

Of whom are red herrings, because never have I supported Palpatine's force storm feats as realistic or consistent.

[Admiral Breetai]

Of whom are red herrings, because never have I supported Palpatine's force storm feats as realistic or consistent.

then concede here and now and for ever more that he pales in comparison to ancient force users...as his shown abilities in the EU ranging from force storms to auras that span the galaxy do not mesh with the power level he displayed in two fights where he desperately fought to survive..was deformed hideously and crippled in one..and won the second because he had better reach yet never showcased these grandiose powers which would of saved him

[Praeothmin]

Clearly you do not understand what a personal opinion to a situation in a book, in contrast to a challenge of canon fact, is.

Nowhere did I deny that Gandalf knocked off a mountain cliff by throwing the Balrog. I just pointed out that it's hard to visualize, and it a little extreme. But it's still canon.

Ok, I read the wrong intentions in what you wrote.
I apologize.
But the problem still is, the super Jedi Feats I mentioned were not performed by any of the Jedi Masters shown in the movies, so while EU Palpatine would indeed be a threat to Gandalf, Movie Jedi Masters aren't.

Of whom are red herrings, because never have I supported Palpatine's force storm feats as realistic or consistent.

Perhaps, but what you did use in what I felt was a certain game-winner tone waere the words "Force Precog".
You also mentioned that the people from Middle-Earth certainly did not have anything like Lightsabres.

I explained why Force Precog is not a game winner, and why I think, based on the movie evidence, that a Lightsabre would not be such an Über weapon in Middle-Earth...
Can you adress these points, please?

So Let's start over, and ignore our perceived tones in each other's previous replies, ok?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Of whom are red herrings, because never have I supported Palpatine's force storm feats as realistic or consistent.

then concede here and now and for ever more that he pales in comparison to ancient force users...as his shown abilities in the EU ranging from force storms to auras that span the galaxy do not mesh with the power level he displayed in two fights where he desperately fought to survive..was deformed hideously and crippled in one..and won the second because he had better reach yet never showcased these grandiose powers which would of saved him

Sidious has been stated by numerous sources to be the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Yoda has been stated in the AOTC novel to be the most devastating foe the darkness has ever known, putting Yoda as the most powerful Jedi prior to EU Luke.

And your arguments against Sidious's power is because...he barely survived two fights. Well, you did not quantify the people of whom he fought; both of whom were perhaps the two most powerful Jedi Masters in recorded history by that point, so your analysis is paper thin.